Hot news -- NO WHOOSH by Zicsoft

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Hot news -- NO WHOOSH

POSTED BY: ZICSOFT
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 7, 2002 00:18
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Monday, July 22, 2002 4:57 AM

So I run across this article from the Edmonton Journal. The writer is not big on science or science fiction (he says the Serenity "cruises the solar system"!). He's mainly interested in local boy made good Nathan Fillion. While he's at it, he grabs some PR boilerplate from Joss Whedon. Buried in the middle of which is this tidbit: "The scenes in which Serenity ploughs through space are silent."

Yes it's true. They have enough respect for their audience to think they'll understand that there's no sound in a vacuum!

I guess that settles it: Joss Whedon is God!

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Monday, July 22, 2002 4:59 AM

ZICSOFT

Oops, forgot the link:

http://www.canada.com/edmonton/edmontonjournal/story.asp?id=%7BEDE8F73
F-87F6-4E64-9D24-28727D5E484C%7D

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Monday, July 22, 2002 11:18 AM

COMMONSENSEMAN

Yup it is true, as I said in my post in the Episode Discussion thread, as i have seen an episode already.

I do not think it was the pilot, as it was not the great train robbery episode, but yes indeedie no sound in space!

I think it is a brilliant move.

Out.....................

All are welcome at http://theannex.curvedspaces.com

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Monday, July 22, 2002 1:52 PM

PANDORA

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Oops, forgot the link:

http://www.canada.com/edmonton/edmontonjournal/story.asp?id=%7BEDE8F73
F-87F6-4E64-9D24-28727D5E484C%7D

Woooooo hoo!

I am most pleased by this news.

Most pleased indeed...

Pandora

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

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Monday, July 22, 2002 2:48 PM

MOJOECA

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:

Yes it's true. They have enough respect for their audience to think they'll understand that there's no sound in a vacuum!

There's no oxygen in a vacuum either. Are the big fiery explosions that we see in space movies/shows possible?

I would think that in the instant the ship exploded, the vacuum breaches the hull and quickly surrounds, then the fire is immediately snuffed out. But force of the explosion remains and obliterates the ship. I would love to see that effect put to screen (if my assumption is scientifically accurate).

--- Joe

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Monday, July 22, 2002 3:23 PM

ZICSOFT

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:

Yes it's true. They have enough respect for their audience to think they'll understand that there's no sound in a vacuum!

There's no oxygen in a vacuum either. Are the big fiery explosions that we see in space movies/shows possible?

I would think that in the instant the ship exploded, the vacuum breaches the hull and quickly surrounds, then the fire is immediately snuffed out. But force of the explosion remains and obliterates the ship. I would love to see that effect put to screen (if my assumption is scientifically accurate).

--- Joe

An interesting point. I think you're basically right. But it's not like there's no source of oxygen -- there's the life support system of the exploding spaceship. And current spaceships also keep big scads of oxygen around in order to oxidize their rocket fuel. (Roddenbery/Lucas spaceships are more elegant of course!) In any case, I don't believe you'd have those expanding, billowing clouds that Hollywood considers an essential part of an explosion.

In point of fact, most movie/TV explosions are not at all realistic. They always neglect the difference between the speed of light and the speed of sound, no matter how far away the observer is supposed to be. And I don't believe most real-life explosions generate continuing noise or smoke over such an extended period. But I'm talking like I know more than I do.

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Monday, July 22, 2002 3:42 PM

It's actually a female writer, isn't it? But I agree she doesn't seem to be big on SF. Still, I'm not so sure she didn't grasp an essential point with this. I tend to be a sort of purist with SF and see almost no media SF that qualifies as anything but science fantasy. I'm still looking forward to this show, but I'm not sure real hard SF nitpickers will be pleased with it if that's what they're looking for. I'm not sure that the ship doesn't whoosh just because (1) almost all other TV starships do and (2) it lends itself aesthetically to an unromantic quietness. The principle seems to be on cliche-busting and mood setting, more than scientific accuracy. On the one hand, Buffy is obviously a fantasy, yet it's extremely realistic a level deeper down. Yet it's unrealistic all over again when you get to the mechanics of one Slayer spending 6 years at a hellmouth to fight evil that must roam the globe, with a Watchers Council based in England primarily focused on this one girl, etc. etc. I suspect Firefly will follow the same basic structure. It's obviously going to be SF but realistic in its character portrayals regarding how people would behave in the world depicted, which will shed light on our own - but I'm not sure the fundamentals of that world will be logically and scientifically airtight.

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Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:00 AM

CHARLIEBLUE

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:

Yes it's true. They have enough respect for their audience to think they'll understand that there's no sound in a vacuum!

There's no oxygen in a vacuum either. Are the big fiery explosions that we see in space movies/shows possible?

I would think that in the instant the ship exploded, the vacuum breaches the hull and quickly surrounds, then the fire is immediately snuffed out. But force of the explosion remains and obliterates the ship. I would love to see that effect put to screen (if my assumption is scientifically accurate).

I'm not a physicist by any stretch, but it always made sense to me. It's the stuff (oxygen, fuel) in the ship itself that combusts. That's why they don't leave smoldering remains--they explode, and as soon as the combustibles are finished doing their thing, you've just got plain old debris.

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Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:40 AM

INARASNEWTOY

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Buried in the middle of which is this tidbit: "The scenes in which Serenity ploughs through space are silent."

Sounds kinda.....dull to me.

I'm willing to wait and see but i don't know about this.

It worked in 2001 with the full orchastra behind it but those shots were always just establishing shots, setting up a scene not BEING the scene.

Firefly is a whole different beast. It's a war story, heck it's a Star War

if you want to get technical.

How can you have a dramatic battle scene with no sound?

Sure hope Joss knows what he is doing!

INT

One evil at a time, that's the best i can do - Farscape

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Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:30 AM

TINYTIMM

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Yes it's true. They have enough respect for their There's no oxygen in a vacuum either. Are the big fiery explosions that we see in space movies/shows possible?

I would think that in the instant the ship exploded, the vacuum breaches the hull and quickly surrounds, then the fire is immediately snuffed out. But force of the explosion remains and obliterates the ship. I would love to see that effect put to screen (if my assumption is scientifically accurate).
--- Joe

You forget, the ship must carry oxygen in various forms as well as other gas supplies. Chemicals for air/water purification and recycling. A spaceship will be an explosion waiting to happen.

A vacuum cannot breach the hull. The hull must be breached by something, not nothing. ;-> Then the atmosphere IN the ship must BLOW OUT. Depending on the pressure maintained in the hull, somewhere between 7 and 15 psi I presume, 7 being the lowest I can recall being used so far and 15 being roughly earth normal pressure near sea level, and the size of the hole and the total size of the ship, allowing for pressure doors, emergency systems and such, it could be a long time before anything happened.

More likely, in combat a projectile of some kind would penetrate the hull, hit vital tanks of fuel and oxygen and ignite an explosion. This could result in a rather spectacular display of fireworks. For examples look at the pictures of exploding stars at http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html
and consider a much smaller scale.

Jeff Timm
Who thinks inexpensive access to space, some balloons filled with hydrogen and oxygen and some chemicals to make pretty colors would give rather unusual and spectacular fireworks.

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Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:38 AM

TINYTIMM

Quote:

How can you have a dramatic battle scene with no sound?
Sure hope Joss knows what he is doing!

Joss is of the TV generation. He isn't writing for radio and understands that TV is a VISUAL medium. Drama can be enhanced with background music or the sound of people in extreme circumstances. Example, using a track of communications during battle or the sound from the bridge of a doomed ship.

Jeff
Who loves the sight gags in Buffy

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Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:08 AM

COMMONSENSEMAN

Well I think the silence will work.

I remember when I saw the movie Robot Jox yes I will admit to seeing that.

It was a decent enough B movie but what really impressed me was the 30 seconds of the film that was shot in space.

The Robots flew up into space and had a mini battle then fell back to earth, and the entire space scene was silent except for the music.

And the music was scored just right so it accented the action, it was great.

And thst's the way it is in Firefly, it is almost more dramatic to see the ship use it Boost silently than it would be to hear a big roar.

But hey you get plenty of noise when the ship is in the atmosphere doing it's thing so don't worry.

Out......................

All are welcome at http://theannex.curvedspaces.com

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Tuesday, July 23, 2002 12:54 PM

ZICSOFT

Quote:
How can you have a dramatic battle scene with no sound?

I suspect that any fighting will be more personal. Goes with the theme of the show (people, not technology). And besides, it's been done to death. I guess there's still an audience for Yet Another Star Wars Ripoff -- but I'm sure not part of it.

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Tuesday, July 23, 2002 12:59 PM

ZICSOFT

Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:
Joss is of the TV generation. He isn't writing for radio and understands that TV is a VISUAL medium. ...

Jeff
Who loves the sight gags in Buffy

Well, yes and no. As I've said before, it was the visual cleverness of Hush that hooked me on Buffy. But there's a limit to what you can do with that -- which is why The Gentlemen only appeared in one ep.

All these silly space battles are just ripoffs of Star Wars. Which itself was just a ripoff of WW II movies, at least as far as the space battles go. It's been done to death.

And if you must have your quota of blood and thunder, go to a movie. That sort of thing loses all its effect on TV anyway.

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Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:34 AM

SHUGGIE

Are we talking silent space scenes or are we talking no engine noise.

A score is inherently artificial so unless you're continually trying to make the point that there's no sound in a vacuum - which would be tedious - I think a score is ok.

Even so - a score-only or even silent battle scene could be very dramatic. You'll almost certainly want to cut between shots of ships in space and characters on board - and the contrast between silence and sound could be very effective I think. I've seen this kind of thing done in other genres but the only example I can think of off the top of my head is the scene in Face Off with the little girl listening to opera on her walkman whilst in the midst of a gun-battle. That was good - if very stylistic - I'm sure there are better examples.

Shug

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Wednesday, July 24, 2002 10:18 AM

TINYTIMM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
All these silly space battles are just ripoffs of Star Wars. Which itself was just a ripoff of WW II movies, at least as far as the space battles go. It's been done to death.

I don't want no silly space battles. I want NEAT space battles. Show me the hired physicists from JPL!

I seriously think a space battle would be visually boring. Like a sub vs. sub battle where the usual results are both being destroyed. With ranges in Light Minutes and weapons fired on probabilites.

Jeff
Who hopes the gunfights are written by people who have seen the police training videotapes not old "B" movies. Cross Reference: http://www.ayoob.com/

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Wednesday, July 24, 2002 7:48 PM

COMMONSENSEMAN

That is correct the only sound you will get in space is the score music and any talking between the people over the comms if they are outside.

The music was very haunting when they where showing Serenity flying thru space.

Out...............

All are welcome at http://theannex.curvedspaces.com

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Thursday, July 25, 2002 7:13 AM

MILLERNATE

I should probably be in bed (feel sick as a dog) but I just feel like replying...

Quote:

All these silly space battles are just ripoffs of Star Wars. Which itself was just a ripoff of WW II movies, at least as far as the space battles go. It's been done to death.

And if you must have your quota of blood and thunder, go to a movie. That sort of thing loses all its effect on TV anyway.

Now to me it isn't so much that something like this *needs* space battles but that it needs the *capability* to do them for reasons of logic. Now it stands to reason that if space travel is as relatively easy as seems likely for Firefly that cargo is frequently transported through space.

Now unless greed has been extinguished (which, from the sound of Firefly it likely hasn't

) then that greed would lead to people trying to hijack that cargo (piracy being easier than theft "off the dock" so to speak) which in turn would lead to the transport ships developing weapons to stop other craft from boarding to steal said cargo and the other ships developing to counter those. Thus it seems only logical that space craft develop *some* kind of weapons (be they lasers or something else entirely).

Nathan
"Being popular and well liked is not in your best interest. Let me be more clear; if you behave in a manner pleasing to most, then you are probably doing something wrong." - Janeane Garofalo, from "Feel this Book"

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Thursday, July 25, 2002 7:55 AM

ZICSOFT

Quote:
...which in turn would lead to the transport ships developing weapons to stop other craft from boarding to steal said cargo and the other ships developing to counter those.

Well, yeah, a space captain would want some kind of weapon to fire at an attacking vessel. But want and get are two different things.

Look at the history of naval warfare. Sea travel has been around for maybe 25 centuries, but it's only in the last three centuries that ships acquired the ability to damage each other at a distance. Even after the invention of gunpowder, it took a very long time to incorporate cannon into ships. Lots of technical difficulties.

So for most of history, naval battles were basically infantry actions taken out to sea.

There appear to be strong parallels in the Firefly universe. The spaceships don't have magic buzzword drives that allow them to maneuver through deep space like a WW II Spitfire. Instead they move around ballistically. And, as the whole SDI nonsense showed, hitting one ballistic object with another is damned hard.

By the same token, intercepting a ship in deep space for a boarding action would also be just about impossible. So if you're a space pirate in this universe, you have to wait for your target to enter an atmosphere so you can force her down and steal the cargo.

Which is, presumably, why there are no little guns sticking out of Serenity's hull.

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Thursday, July 25, 2002 7:59 AM

ZICSOFT

Quote:
Originally posted by CommonSenseMan:
That is correct the only sound you will get in space is the score music and any talking between the people over the comms if they are outside.

The music was very haunting when they where showing Serenity flying thru space.

Out...............

All are welcome at http://theannex.curvedspaces.com

Hey guy, could you put all the little details between [ spoiler ] tags? Some of us want to get this stuff from the show itself.

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Thursday, July 25, 2002 8:51 AM

INARASNEWTOY

Quote:
Originally posted by CommonSenseMan:
That is correct the only sound you will get in space is the score music and any talking between the people over the comms if they are outside.

Do you mean outside the ship on a spacewalk?

I think it would be nice if you could hear the com traffic from the ships as well, sort of like the Wing Commander games.

I'm going to wait till i see how this is implemented. It sounds like a bad idea but if anybody can pull this off Joss can.

INT

One evil at a time, that's the best i can do - Farscape

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Wednesday, August 7, 2002 12:18 AM

COMMONSENSEMAN

Select to view spoiler:

Yes the only sound you will hear in space or during space walks are the communications between the crew over the radio and the music.

Out......................

All are welcome at http://theannex.curvedspaces.com

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