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Originally posted by Calhoun:
I'm sorry but Fox has done its dash with me! We may not be able to hurt Fox by blacklisting them but to me its the principle that counts. They have shown far too much incompetence and ruined too many good things. So I had my Fox cable TV disconnected and when they begged me to leave it on I said BRING BACK FIREFLY YOU BASTARDS!

It felt good and I am not missing any of the TRIPE! they continue to show.

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Originally posted by infra172:
Want to know how you can hurt the networks who cancel your shows? DONT BUY THE DVDs! Don't buy the Wonderfalls DVDs when they come out. Download pirated versions.

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Originally posted by infra172:
Yes, I said political. Idiots who come on here and say its all about the ratings don't know what they're talking about. Wonderfalls and Firefly were cancelled before they even premiered. A network doesn't put a show on Friday night that they want to succeed. So no ammount of watching or not watching any particular show is going to change the situation.

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Originally posted by infra172:
Alright. All the morons who don't know anything about business or economics stop posting here.

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Originally posted by infra172:


Alright. All the morons who don't know anything about business or economics stop posting here.

Stop buying the DVDs for these shows. Did it ever occur to you that the WB or Fox might cancel a show you like so that they can accelerate the release of the DVDs so that they can make a quick buck?

Here's how we'll win this: DESTROY NETWORK TELEVISION! Stop watching shows on network television. Start watching shows on cable. Cable shows aren't cancelled for political reasons like Wonderfalls or Firefly. Yes, I said political. Idiots who come on here and say its all about the ratings don't know what they're talking about. Wonderfalls and Firefly were cancelled before they even premiered. A network doesn't put a show on Friday night that they want to succeed. So no ammount of watching or not watching any particular show is going to change the situation.

We need to shift the money to cable networks. People abandoned network news for CNN and Fox News. News coverage on television is better than ever. The same could be true for our television shows. Hurt the major networks as much as you can so that the next time Joss wants to create a show, someone like the Scifi channel will pick it up.

Or don't listen to me and watch Fox create a new show you love every season just to crush it a few weeks later. Just keep thinking that "Yeah, next year we'll convince the heartless bastards to keep the show."

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Originally posted by infra172:
Want to know how you can hurt the networks who cancel your shows? DONT BUY THE DVDs! Don't buy the Wonderfalls DVDs when they come out. Download pirated versions.

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Originally posted by zoid:
I have been boycotting not only Fox, but their show sponsors as seen in TV Guide and fishwrap ads as well, since they canceled Firefly. I sincerely hope they don't enlist Boddington Pub Ale as a sponsor, 'cause I'd miss it, but...

I don't believe my actions will cause Fox to go broke or shut its doors. That's not what I'm shooting for.

I'll start watching Fox (soft 'u' sound) primetime TV again, the very same day I see an announcement stating their programming team have been FIRED... Sorry for shouting, but those idiots need to be flipping burgers some place. It'd also be nice to get a blurb from Fox stating that they 1.) needed to go in a new direction, with 2.) people who knew something about quality programming, and that they 3.) had placed an strict ban on hiring the board of directors' immediate family members to positions where intelligence was essential.

The person or persons responsible for cancelling Firefly, in particular, have no business being in the field of entertainment. As soon as I hear they are no longer working at Fox, I'll tune in their shows again.

'Til then, not. It's not so much about a desire to hurt Fox as it is not to get screwed by these ignoramuses again. To quote Mr. Scott, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."


Respectfully,


zoid

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Originally posted by Calhoun:
The Fox people regularly ring me up and tell me about a new deal or reduced subscription rate for their cable network and why I should have my cable reconnected.. My first question to them is always "has Firefly been resurrected yet?"...

I dont care what anyone says! I feel better for it!

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The eventual goal, as you yourself have said, is to change Fox. We want to get the people that don't understand quirky and interesting shows to either die, get fired, or change their minds. Right?

Now. How are we going to do this? If none of us watches any shows on that network at all, the only people that DO watch the shows on that network are the people that watch reality shows. The consequences are obvious - these people are going to look at the ratings and think, "well, no one's watching (insert good TV show here), so let's cancel it. Those shows never succeed." And they'll be right.

If you want to change that, if you want to make Fox air good shows, you have to show them that people watch good shows. And how are you going to do that if you don't ever watch anything? Principle is all well and good, but in this case, following the principle is defeating your own purpose.

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Originally posted by zoid:

Okay, first off, I never said I wanted to change Fox. I said I wanted their TV programmers fired. While it may seem these two statements are the same, they are not. Yours is about Fox TV network. Mine is about some specific -- if anonymous -- morons who couldn't pour piss out of a boot with directions on the heel.

I'll try an analogy.

I've read biographies of Bill Gates. Now, I figure I'm in an extreme minority and probably flame-baiting here, but I like the guy. Or at least I'm withholding judgement to see if he carries through on his stated intention of giving away all his money to charities, with the exception of $50 million for each of his children.

On the other hand, Microsoft -- as an entity in its own right -- is an evil bitch. The company has virtually cornered the market and strangled anyone who attempted to compete with it.

Some say, "Microsoft is Bill is Microsoft," but I disagree. Companies become personalities themselves, and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. For the sake of argument, whether you agree or not just play along for a sec... The equation goes like this: Bill's okay, the programmers are okay, the marketing people are okay, and the company's lawyers are...
well, there's no such thing as a lawyer with a soul, but we're playing along, right?

Put all these 'okay' people together and form a company and place that company in a competitive environment... What happens? The company -- like any organism -- evolves in accordance with Darwinism. Darwin was wrong, but we'll take it as read, still playing along.

In Microsoft's case, evolution yielded a predator. But it really had very little to do with the human element involved. Everybody just did their jobs, but something happened along the way and the thing grew fangs and venom pits.

Fox is not bad. It's just Fox, and I don't hate it for that. But it's got a cancer in its body: the aforementioned TV programmers responsible for cancelling Firefly. I don't want to change Fox, any more than I want to change my GSD into a poodle. But if my Shepherd gets a bad tooth, I have it pulled before it can infect the neighboring teeth, sicken and maybe even kill my dog.

Another analogy: If I go to a fast food restaurant and order a burger, and they give me one made from feces, is it your argument that I should continue buying feces burgers in the hopes that one day they'll start using dead cow, like any responsible purveyor of burgers would do from the outset?

Well, I ain't doin' it. I want dead cow burgers. Fox ain't got 'em, and what they do have is manure, so I'm going elsewhere and get the burgers I like.

But, to each his own; by all means, enjoy your shit sandwiches!


Respectfully,

zoid

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Originally posted by Calhoun:
Anyone else here think that this Thrawn character sounds like a Fox exec? He is beating his drum for Fox loud enuff.. or maybe just beating something else.

I loved you analogies Zoid :)


STUFF FOX!!

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Originally posted by zoid:
To Maugwai:

Since you mentioned "The Swan", I'd just like to say how horrified I was the very first time I saw the promo for that turd. How far have we fallen as a culture and a society that cutting up women and making them eye candy is entertainment?

...

My skin crawls just thinking of this.

...

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Perhaps if people in our demographic don't watch Fox, then the shows we like can be picked up by a network who will support their product.

Fox can die alongside reality TV... Hopefully Soon

" Thats not fair !!!!
I didn't even have a soul when I did that!"

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"...whatever you do in regard to the FOX television network will not affect them one darn bit. By all means do what your principles tell you to do, but don't think you are having any effect."

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"Secondly, people ought to get a basic grasp of how the economics of television work."

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"FOX launched one of the longest-running SF shows of all time out of a Friday night slot: The X-Files."

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"All these folks care about is making money, and the only way they can make money is to sell commercials at a good rate prompted by good ratings."

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Originally posted by zoid:
Economics in television works the same as it does in any other business proposition. Build a better product, and people will buy it. Manufacture crap and they'll do business someplace else. With the exception of "American Idol", which they transplanted along with Simon from the UK (i.e., not by any means an original creation) and Fox Sports -- stole baseball from NBC and the entire NFL Today cast and crew from CBS -- Fox can't see daylight they're so deep in the ratings hole from the Big 3. That's economic reality.

So they get some truly original programming -- something that could put them on the map -- and what do they do with it? What they always do: mismanage it to death.

Actually, Fox also initially cancelled "X-Files". Fan outrage and letter-writing was the only thing that brought it back from the dead.

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Originally posted by zoid:
True. But 'Fox the Parent' also breaks out its ratings. They know how much the Sports Division brings in and charge accordingly. They know how much News brings in and charge accordingly.

If their Primetime is in the toilet, except for the unoriginal "Idol", they'll get around to lopping heads in that division.

Thanks for playing...

As I said originally:
Boycott Fox primetime and their primetime sponsors. If you don't buy the sponsors' products, the sponsors get the picture that Fox Primetime is a bad advertising buy and spend their money elsewhere (see response to "[You] people ought to get a basic grasp of economics", above). You don't need a Nielsen box.

Regardless what some of the apologists may say, you are the customer, you can demand more, and you can and will have an effect if you are united and resolute.


Respectfully,

zoid

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Originally posted by Thrawn:

. . . (much deleted) . . .

Also, principle is not the only thing that matters. You do the things that make what you want to happen happen. And what you're doing is useless...you may feel morally superior, but you're making no difference at all. Wouldn't you rather cause them to fix the problem, rather than just feeling good about yourself for not letting it get to you?

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First of all, I actually agree about Bill Gates/Microsoft. The situation there, though, is the exact reverse of what you're saying about Fox - I understand what point you were making, but I don't see how there's a point there besides background.

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Then, skipping a bit, regarding the burger thing - say you had a choice of four restaurants (simplified because cable networks exist, but you get the idea). Each restaurant had bunch of dishes. You ate at all four every once in a while. One of them kept introducing really excellent dishes, then taking them off the menu because they didn't sell well. You'd still go eat them, right? If only for variety's sake. That's the better analogy...

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(Snipped) ...They have jobs, they do jobs, and, so far, the ratings have pretty much proven to the rest of the network that they do those jobs well.

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Originally posted by zoid:
Thrawn, hope you're still reading:

Let me say I'm a native Houstonian -- though I schooled crosstown (Eat 'em up, eat 'em up...) -- and that it's good to have bright young people participating in the discussion. You've got to be something of a 'River' to attend Rice. Congrats and say 'hi' to the Mob for me...

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Originally posted by zoid:
Now, to the meat:

You wrote:

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Then, skipping a bit, regarding the burger thing - say you had a choice of four restaurants (simplified because cable networks exist, but you get the idea). Each restaurant had bunch of dishes. You ate at all four every once in a while. One of them kept introducing really excellent dishes, then taking them off the menu because they didn't sell well. You'd still go eat them, right? If only for variety's sake. That's the better analogy...

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Very good; but incomplete and hence, fallacious. A more appropriate revision of your analogy is that this hypothetical restaurant brings the "really excellent dish", lets you take four bites from it, then removes the plate before you can get a fifth episode ...er, forkful, and replaces it with aforementioned feces burger, which are in fact its standard fare. I -- and my sympathizers here -- are tired of this particular restaurant not letting us finish our meals and forcing ordure down our throats. What you're defending is not even a satisfying portion. It leaves one feeling distinctly unfulfilled, poisoned and betrayed.

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Originally posted by zoid:

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(Snipped) ...They have jobs, they do jobs, and, so far, the ratings have pretty much proven to the rest of the network that they do those jobs well.

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This statement is a problem. They do indeed have jobs, but I disagree that they're doing them competently or responsibly with regards to their consumers -- the viewers, not the advertisers. Viewers (or 'eyeballs') are what Fox sells to advertisers. If they can't produce them, or chase them off through bad faith practice, then they cannot succeed in fulfilling their obligations to those advertisers. Therefore, Fox's first loyalty must be to the consumers of their programming. Otherwise, they have no product (us) to sell (to Madison Avenue types). As for your mention of ratings, please see also my response to Cardie, above.

Study hard.


Respectfully,

zoid

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Also, principle is not the only thing that matters. You do the things that make what you want to happen happen. And what you're doing is useless...you may feel morally superior, but you're making no difference at all.

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Originally posted by Thrawn:
So, especially after Wonderfalls, there seems to be a HUGE number of people with the general thought "That's it. I'm done. I'm never watching a single Fox show ever, period."

I ask you - what are you hoping to accomplish? You think you're going to drive Fox out of business? You have no chance. No CHANCE. If everyone that ever watched Firefly or Wonderfalls never watched another Fox show again, we'd still barely make a dent. Fox's general audience is so completely different from those shows that us boycotting them isn't going to accomplish anything useful.

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It will, however, accomplish one thing very well - the NEXT time Fox buys a Firefly, or a Wonderfalls, the audience that would watch it, the audience that would keep it on air, will be boycotting the network, so it will fail AGAIN. And the exact same thing will happen. All you're going to accomplish by refusing to watch anything Fox ever produces is help prevent Fox from ever producing anything interesting. Which, it seems to me, is exactly the opposite of what you'd want.

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There is no conspiracy here. The only reason Fox cancels shows is because they tank. If you look at the Wonderfalls ratings, they fell sharply, from an already fairly bad first number. Granted, Fox is worse than most at promoting these shows and placing them in positions where they will be watched, and it's likely that they made a mistake by cancelling it early, but it's not because they're evil malicious conservatives or because they have a death feud against Tim Minear. It's because they don't understand how it takes a long time for cult followings to develop, and aren't willing to grant the time it takes for that to happen.

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If we're ever going to get a show like this to stick around, we're going to have to show them that it's profitable for that to happen. Which means, first and foremost, that we have to actually watch it. Fox may be an unusually pathetic and incompetent network, but that's two good shows in a row they've been interested in and bought, and that failed because not enough people watched them. It's mostly their fault, but it's partially ours, too.

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Don't boycott Fox, and don't assume that we'll never get one of these to work. All you're doing is causing more harm than good, and reducing the possibilities for more creative shows in the future. By all means, don't watch the bad ones - avoid any and all reality TV like the plague - but if you see one that looks interesting, watch it. And if you like it, get other people to watch it.

You never know what we can do when we try hard enough.

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Originally posted by zeke023:
Do you not steal things because you might get caught or because it's the wrong thing to do? Do you not shop at Wal-mart because you want your efforts to drive them out of business, or do you just not want your money to support the company that refuses to give any benifits to its workers and sells clothing made by asian children?

It's not a question of FOX failing due to my decision not to watch it. It's simply a matter of, FOX will never publish anything I want to watch anyway and even if they do, it will be gone within a season. I don't want them getting any populartiy. My part in this effort is to not watch them.

It's "doing the right thing" regardless of outcome. Not that this is as important as not shopping at wal-mart... but doing your own small part always feels good.

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Originally posted by splibertarian:
Personally, I place great importance on acting on principle. I just find it more spiritually fulfilling to act in a positive way, than to dwell on the negative; to be constructive, rather than destructive. So, rather than decry the powers that be at Fox TV, I do what I can to support Firefly. I put my money where my mouth is and purchase the DVDs. I use my mouth too, blabbering on about how much I like the show, hoping to turn others onto it. In the end, I am happier because I am spending my time, money, energy, and enthusiasm on something I love (Firefly), rather than focusing on something that brings me stress and pain (Fox TV). If Fox airs another program I enjoy, I will watch it and support it because it is in line with my principles to support good works. As Zoe said in Heart of Gold,"...I ain't so afraid of losing something that I ain't gonna try to have it."

Tearing down Fox TV, or even the execs. responsible for decisions that do not serve me well will not bring back Firefly, but purchasing the DVDs, spreading the word, and supporting the movie just might. And at the end of the day, I am happy to have had the pleasure and hopeful to have more, rather than bitter and spiteful for having been burned.

In Firefly, Mal has lost everything; as a result, he's not such a happy guy. I just lost a TV show, and I refuse to sacrifice my happiness over that injustice.

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
If asked what the ratings were for say Firefly, someone will spit some statistic at me garnered from the Nielson people based on how many Nielson homes tuned in to the show. That number in no way reflects how many non-Nielson families watched the show, so how is it an accurate representation of the number of viewers? What are there, like less than 100,000 homes in America w/ a box? That is very small percentage of the millions of homes in America that turn on the tube every night. Just doesn't add up to me.

As for it being our fault, what more can we do than tune in and spread the word. It seems quite a few here did that.

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Don't boycott Fox, and don't assume that we'll never get one of these to work. All you're doing is causing more harm than good, and reducing the possibilities for more creative shows in the future. By all means, don't watch the bad ones - avoid any and all reality TV like the plague - but if you see one that looks interesting, watch it. And if you like it, get other people to watch it.

You never know what we can do when we try hard enough.

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Interesting shows and Fox mix like oil and water. It just doesn't work. Fox mishandles the shows, and does little in the way to advertise the show. Seems to me they don't know how to sell a product unless it is a reality show. Are they truly that incompetent, or do they simply not care?

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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