Firefly and the Heinlein Connection. by Ruthie

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Firefly and the Heinlein Connection.

POSTED BY: RUTHIE
UPDATED: Sunday, July 20, 2003 06:18
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 14122
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Monday, June 30, 2003 3:28 PM

Kenwood sez:

"He wrote a number of other good works, and some drivel"

Well, it is true that some of RAH's work is a bit thin, often it is dated - especially the juvys - though I'd disagree about about Farnham's Freehold being one of those. Some of it is, IMO, poorly concived like the "roads" in his Future History

BUT

But what I like about him is that no matter how the plot breaks down with time, the characterizations are, IMO, timeless. The dialouge is crisp and instantly indetifiable as his in every work. In fact, it's in this regard that I find more similarities with Firefly than in the plots.

All the characters in Firefly have a very Heinlien quality about them, in Spades in the case of Mal, less so in the case of Simon. The dialouge in Firefly is pretty much the only filmed work I've ever seen that approches having Hienlien's "voice."

I'll admit to Succutash or anyone else that they likely won't enjoy the plot of every single Heinlien work (for instance, some die-hard Heinlien fans deispise "I Will Fear No Evil") but whether you like it or not, you will hear the "voice" of Firefly on every page.

Still, I can't imagine any SF fan not finding TMIAHM, Glory Road, and Starship Troopers, along with SIASL to be must-reads.

If you list the 5 most important works of every major SF author, those 4 will be in everyone's top 5 for RAH.

"Why we still discussin' this?"

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Tuesday, July 1, 2003 12:56 PM

LUNATIKAT

Rayann,
Come on, we both know they'd never consider politics if mandatory military service were the prerequisite. That's the first giggle, and only then do I enter the pure fantasy realm of "but what if they did try to bullshit their way through military service of the Starship Trooper culture?" Hate to admit how much pleasure I get thinking 'bout that old "administrative punishment". However, that's not why I'm here right now. Came to ask you how to use quotes and emoticons, you use them with such facility and I am extremely lame in the computer brain. Thanks if you can help.

Lunatikat - Scourge of the Spaceways and never late for dinner. Try one today!

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Tuesday, July 1, 2003 1:16 PM

KAYTHRYN

Lunatikat,
I know this wasn’t for me to answer but I can’t help it. I think this same question has been answered about a dozen times in the last few days and sadly, has already been answered once today.

Quote:
Posted by JohnnyReb:
Anyway, type the punctuation mark colon, then the word that describes the emotion that you want from the list to the left, then type another colon. For example
disappointed Be sure to type this where you want your emoticon to appear.

My brackets didn't seem to have "submitted" with the rest of my tutorial. Just pretend that these semi-colons are actually real life colons.

;disappointed;

That's how it should look, only with colons, of course.

Here’s the shorter version-- when you are typing a message, look to the left, it’s all there. And if you screw it up and post something incorrectly, you can edit your message. After you’ve posted it, look at the bottom of your message where it says “edit“. You can just click that and try it again.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Tuesday, July 1, 2003 1:25 PM

LUNATIKAT

Dear Wulfhawk,
Makes me wonder if you might be thinking of Dr. Asimov. He revealed in his autobiography that he was unfaithful to his first wife during their marriage. Defended it on the grounds that it bolstered his confidence in himself as a lover, I suppose trying to imply that his legal spouse failed him in this regard.
My take on Mr. Heinlein is that he seemed to defend sexual freedom AND the right to choose sexual exclusivity if one wished. I do know that I never read a word that he wrote, fiction or non-fiction, that indicated to me that he was other than exclusive with either his first or second wife. I always assumed that to mean either that he was exclusive in marriage or that he felt that exclusivity or non-exclusivity was a couple's private choice which he was under no obligation to reveal to the public.
Enough of that. Back to Succatash's Need-to-Know
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Job (especially if you are a Mark Twain fan)
Any and all of his short story collections.
Puppet Masters (I prefer the first, more edited version.)
Starship Troopers
Stranger in a Strange Land (I prefer the first, more heavily edited version.)
Okay, I almost have to stop now, I'm breathing heavy and drooling. But before I go, the top five reason not to avoid RAH's young adult stuff:
1. Citizen of the Galaxy
2. Have Space Suit, Will Travel
3. Tunnel in the Sky
4. Space Cadet
5. The Rolling Stones
each and every one chock full of adventure, classic sci-fi atmosphere, UNFORGETTABLE characters (Thorby, Kit, Rod, Donald, Hazel- members of my family now!)and solid moral lessons for young and old alike! (Sorry, drooling again.)Could go on for hours, but will politely wait until 'Tash reads something and can join in the fun.

Lunatikat - entirely constructed of almost natural materials.

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Tuesday, July 1, 2003 1:33 PM

LUNATIKAT

Kaythryn,
Much appreciation.

We are almost related by name, by the way. My given name is Kathryn, so I always notice your posts. I'm trying to emote now, hope it works.

Lunatikat - the lights are on, but nobody's next door.

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Tuesday, July 1, 2003 1:39 PM

LUNATIKAT

Kaythryn,
It worked! I'm so

. But I'm back to say, Love your Aristotle quote.

Lunatikat - mad with power over the machine

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Tuesday, July 1, 2003 1:49 PM

LUNATIKAT

Dear Wulfhawk,
Who called you a SOB? Never I.

Lunatikat - but I've said too much

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Wednesday, July 2, 2003 6:03 AM

RUTHIE

It's interesting that this thread includes a discussion (disagreement!) about Heinlein's attitudes to women, becaust this is one of the areas where I see strongest parallels to Firefly.

The women can, and do, do any job they choose - but they do it in a female way, not by having to adopt the same skills that a man might when doing that job.

So Kaylee is a 'genius engineer' - but not because she has studied for years to become one, but because the engines 'talk to her'.

Zoe is an efficient fighter - but is also a faithful married woman, with a great deal of love and caring for her husband.

Inara is a shrwed buisness woman, and her buisness is to use all of her 'female qualities' - making the most of her abilities in social interaction and communication.

These women are not the same as men - because things that are intrinsically different cannot be the same. They are, however, equal with men.

I see this as one of the constant themes in Heinlein's books as well, and perhaps the basis upon which the accusation of mysogeny was founded. He refuses to make his female characters the same as his male ones - they continue to bear children, and put a LOT of their energy to that end, not because that is all they are good for, but because the raising of the next generation is an important and worthy goal.

I think that feminists who dismiss his work as anti-woman because of this emphasis on motherhood are taking a rather short-term view of what true male/female equality could be.

*************
Ruthie
*************

By the data to date, there is only one animal in the Galaxy dangerous to man - man himself. So he must supply his own indispensable competition. He has no enemy to help him. (R.A.Heinlein)

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Wednesday, July 2, 2003 10:58 AM

KENWOOD

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfhawk:

And I ain't no SOB! I'm some kinda sumbich. There's a difference there, one I think Mr. Heinlein might recognize and appreciate.

tanstaafl

I sit corrected.

Later,

ME.

Don't look back, som'thin' might be gainin' on ya.
Who let the pigs play poker?
Evo Shander was right!

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Friday, July 4, 2003 10:39 AM

RAYANN

Quote:
Originally posted by Lunatikat:
Rayann,
Come on, we both know they'd never consider politics if mandatory military service were the prerequisite. That's the first giggle, and only then do I enter the pure fantasy realm of "but what if they did try to bullshit their way through military service of the Starship Trooper culture?" Hate to admit how much pleasure I get thinking 'bout that old "administrative punishment". However, that's not why I'm here right now. Came to ask you how to use quotes and emoticons, you use them with such facility and I am extremely lame in the computer brain. Thanks if you can help.

Sorry it took me so long to respond... looks like your question has already been answered, and quite well at that. lol, as for recent presidents and mandatory military service, I can just picture the hopelessly puzzled expression on Dubya's face the first time he realized that his daddy's name doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the Mobile Infantry (he would never qualify for any of the jobs requiring intelligence or finesse, of course), or Clinton finding out the hard way that charisma and a tough-luck childhood don't win him any points... and ah, yes, administrative punishment. Of course, they'd probably both wash out before that could happen, but it is a nice thought... but I digress.

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Saturday, July 5, 2003 12:33 AM

CALHOUN

Hello Succatash,

I am a huge Sci Fi fan and have been since I started reading books at about age 14(I know.. I was a slow starter). Anyhows, 20 years on I have amassed a small library of Sci Fi.

Battlefield Earth was a great book which was done a grave injustice by film.

E.E. Doc Smiths books are all thoroughly enjoyable. Loved the Lensman series and the D'Alembert series.

For a bad ass story though I think back to a book called Cobra Strike. The book is about soldiers modified with high-tech gear like microbial organic alloys injected into their bones, combat microprocessors that evaluate circumstances and provide real-time solutions during combat. I cant remember it all but I remember it was an exciting read..

Any comments on my taste in books welcomed :)

Mal - "Jayne! Go play with your rainstick"

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Saturday, July 5, 2003 12:46 AM

CALHOUN

LOL,

I just realised my previous posting has nothing to do with Robert.A.Heinlein.

Sorry about that.. I dont seem to be able to start a new thread for some reason..

I have read and enjoyed some of Heinleins work "Have space suit will travel", "rocketship Galileo" and a few others I cant remember..

I can see a definite similarity between Heinleins and Whedons styles. Great minds think alike i'd say.

Jayne - "I like smackin'em"

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Monday, July 7, 2003 10:14 PM

STRAYCAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Battlefield Earth was a great book which was done a grave injustice by film.

I'm all for people having their own opinions, and when I'm nasty about a book, I am in no way aiming nasty remarks at the people who like it...

But Battlefield Earth left scars on my psyche. Bought it on a recommendation. Read it all (to this day, I couldn't tell you why). Inscribed the cover with the words "This is the single worst book I have ever read". Gave it away.

Oh - and that opinion was formed long before I knew anything about the author. 'Nuff said on that issue.

Quote:

E.E. Doc Smiths books are all thoroughly enjoyable. Loved the Lensman series and the D'Alembert series.

Lensman - these fired my imagination nicely when I was 12 - haven't reread them since though.

Heinlein - now there's a mixed bag.
As has been said earlier in the thread, he wrote some read drivel. And some stunning books. Moon is a Harsh Mistress is still a favourite, as is Starship Troopers. He did have a tendency to get overlong and rambling though - and a lot of times when the dialogue descended to the puerile. On the feminist side, in some books, the equality issue is very nicely handled, while in others, it's completely overdone - like someone desperately overcompensating for something. So having a female mechanic on a ship would, in most Heinlein novels, have been accompanied by an endless justification of the fact.

I can't really see why you'd think Firefly derives any more from his work than from other science fiction pieces. To be honest, I'd most liken it to some of CJ Cherryh's works (the Downbelow Universe) - books like Merchanters Luck & Rimrunners. Well worth getting into for them as doesn't know 'em. I think it takes its influences from pretty much all over though.

Stray

----------------------------
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

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Monday, July 7, 2003 11:08 PM

CALHOUN

Battlefield Earth remains a favourite book of mine and of all my book reading friends. Yes, yes the author is a complete nutcase.... but you have to get over that and read the book for what it is.. A damn good read!

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.(True Sci fi fans should read it and judge for themselves)

Is your comment about the Lensman firing your imagination when you were 12 an attempted put down or comment to be taken at face value? The writing style is a tad strange but I believe it was the style of the times(50's I think).

Mal - "My days of not takin you seriously are certainly coming to a middle"

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Monday, July 7, 2003 11:33 PM

STRAYCAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Battlefield Earth remains a favourite book of mine and of all my book reading friends. Yes, yes the author is a complete nutcase.... but you have to get over that and read the book for what it is.. A damn good read!

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.(True Sci fi fans should read it and judge for themselves)

Like I said - I read the book knowing nothing about the author. My opinions on the book and my opinions on Hubbard are unrelated.

I think he mentioned in the foreword of the copy I had that unusually for him, he didn't plan the book in advance, but simply made the story up as he went along. I feel that explains a lot. But not everything.

Quote:

Is your comment about the Lensman firing your imagination when you were 12 an attempted put down or comment to be taken at face value? The writing style is a tad strange but I believe it was the style of the times(50's I think).

Face value, and yes, I think it was very much a style of the time.

Stray

-----------------
Hey! Free soup!

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Wednesday, July 9, 2003 9:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Stray:

As far as the Downbelow Station connection:

I thought the parallels were striking. It's a story of a war between the Outworlders and the original inner worlds. There is SOME technology beyond FF (human cloning, human rejuvenation) but it's not a technology-based story. Oddly, it was the outerworlders that were called "the Alliance", and it was the outerworlders who won the war.

Where FF exceeds Downbelow is HUMOR. CJ Cheryh's stories tend to be unremittingly harsh, the protagonists being ground up by political, economic, and personal forces so much larger than they. Sheer survival to the end of the story is counted as a victory.

But the one thing that I liked in Downbelow more than FF is that the FF bad guys have a tendency to look like "Road Warrior" cartoon characters. So far, only the FF "good guys" have been developed as complex humans. In Downbelow, EVERYONE has a life-story.

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Saturday, July 19, 2003 4:45 PM

LUNATIKAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Quote:
Originally posted by Lunatikat:
Succatash,
Unsure of what you mean by "doesn't hold back".
Well, I suppose I could use Robert Jordan for example. His main characters are all horny, but all they do is blush and act childish.
George R. R. Martin, on the other hand, writes with big brass balls. When it's time for a sex scene or a violent scene, he does it right. He doesn't make me feel like I'm reading something censored.
I've just about run out of steam in the Fantasy genre. I've read everything, and I'm starting to weary of it. Stuff I loved as a young teen just isn't doing it for me anymore. I was extremely frustrated until I found George R.R. Martin, and now I'm frustrated again because he's taking a REALLY long time on Book 4.
I really liked Stephen Donaldson's "The Real Story" because, unlike Thomas Covenant, the Real Story is bad ass and doesn't hold back. Very violent and uncensored-feeling. Great Sci Fi in my opinion.
Thanks for your response.
- Succatash

Dear Succatash,
Have you gotten around to reading any Heinlein yet? I'd love to hear your response to him. Thinking more about your desire to find an author that doesn't hold back, I realize that I completely forgot to recommend Steve Perry's Matador series (The Man Who Never Missed, Matadora, The Albino Knife, Black Steel). Fast reads all, takes you right there with the sex while never neglecting the subject of love, fun martial arts stuff (for me, not a martial kind of gal, not athletic that is- might not satisfy a true martial artist, I dunno). Not a lot of sex scenes, but no wimping out when there is one. Jean Auel also doesn't shy away from the wet stuff (if you're into prehistoric fiction), but though I love her Earth's Children series, it is very repetitive (a flaw common to many multi-book series) and generally her sex sensibility is Hyper- Romance Novel. It is graphic, but very TrooLuv oriented.
On another subject, loved your pics, wish I could hear your band. Stay shiny.

Lunatikat- No power in the 'verse can stop me for more than an hour or so depending on the weather of course and if there's chocolate cake involved or lizards or something like that.

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Sunday, July 20, 2003 1:06 AM

STRAYCAT

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
As far as the Downbelow Station connection:

I thought the parallels were striking. It's a story of a war between the Outworlders and the original inner worlds. There is SOME technology beyond FF (human cloning, human rejuvenation) but it's not a technology-based story. Oddly, it was the outerworlders that were called "the Alliance", and it was the outerworlders who won the war.

Small point of order - insofar as anyone seemed to actually win, I'd say that dubious honour went to Union. The Alliance emerged, and in Downbelow Station the Alliance are the closest you get to the good guys. In later books, the perception of them is closer to 'yet another government' - nicely done.
And while Earth weren't even remotely victors, the ones who lost the most comprehensively were the Fleet - the ones doing the fighting. CLOSE parallell to FF there. She doesn't usually write about the movers and shakers. She writes about the little folk, and their perspective on major events that they get caught up in.

Quote:
Where FF exceeds Downbelow is HUMOR. CJ Cheryh's stories tend to be unremittingly harsh, the protagonists being ground up by political, economic, and personal forces so much larger than they. Sheer survival to the end of the story is counted as a victory.

Aye - couldn't agree more about that. There's very rarely any humour in Cherryh's novels. OTOH, I think the 'sheer survival' part is a touch exaggerated. She normally leaves her main characters in better situations than they started in. An exception to that could be the Heavy Time/Hellburner books, where the characters look pretty secure at the end, but Cherryh fans know fine well they're about to be on the losing side of a war...

Quote:
But the one thing that I liked in Downbelow more than FF is that the FF bad guys have a tendency to look like "Road Warrior" cartoon characters. So far, only the FF "good guys" have been developed as complex humans. In Downbelow, EVERYONE has a life-story.

Have you read many of her others? The Foreigner & Chanur series in particular rank among my all-time favourite SF novels.

Stray

-------------------
Hey! Free soup!

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Sunday, July 20, 2003 6:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Maybe it was bc I saw Star Wars b4 reading the Chanur series, or maybe it was the cover art, but I kept thinking.... "Sounds like a Wookie to me!"

Mea culpa on the exaggeration, you're right. Her main characters usually do end up in a better situation at the end, but it seems like they spend all of their time just surviving! (Very little heroics as I recall)

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