Technology in the 'verse by zeke023

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Technology in the 'verse

POSTED BY: ZEKE023
UPDATED: Thursday, October 30, 2003 17:24
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Thursday, June 5, 2003 10:32 AM

Dude : 8 minuts for one AU.
5.2 hours for 39.5 AU (earth to Pluto).

To make this single system theory work you need to account for the following:

1 - a large chunk of space roughly between two habbitable worlds that is more than about 80 AU apart. Big enough that you can be moving under forward inertia for several hours and still be 80 AU away from a habitable world or outpost or other ship.

2 - a direct travel line (obviously not straight for aforementioned reasons) that would take only 18 to go from start to destination.

3 - not break the speed of light - which I'm guessing is the reason for this single system theory.

-Zeke

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Thursday, June 5, 2003 10:53 AM

ZEKE023

quote from Joss:

"Another part of the whole frontier thing was knowing that I was going to be shooting in Southern California, and that if we tried to build weird space worlds every week,...we won't be going back to Earth. But every planet is Earth. That's the one giant technological advancement that we luckily made," he says, tongue-in-cheek. "They found a galaxy with a bunch of planets, a bunch of moons, and were able to terraform all of them, so that you know there are no planets that look very bizarre. They've all been turned into little wannabe Earths."

We know that they are in another galaxy. Does that answer any questions?

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Thursday, June 5, 2003 11:50 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
It would be possible with enough messing abbot to make a planet as distant from the sun as Pluto habitable, why someone would go through the trouble of messing about that much is beyond me, but it could be done.
Not in any way terraformed, it wouldn't.

If certain theories (multiple, from sources of varying credibility, I have more important things to do then look them up) about the percent of heat that can be maintained inside of an atmosphere are correct then a planet that distant from it's source of heat could support life. Plants are a larger problem, they require light, and are the very center of an ecosystem. Genetic engineering might be able to make plants which process light more efficiently, but it is still doubtful that it would be enough.

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
The distance would of course be relative to the strength and the frequency of the signal, and of course the amount of background.
It would be relative to the intensity, not the frequency.

You forget yourself, the frequency determines the background noise that can interfere with it, and that is very important when determining the distance at which something is intelligible. Probably should have been clearer on that point, I was trying to emphasis the background “noise” by saying it as itself an pointing out that the frequency was a factor, which is only because of background noise.

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Thursday, June 5, 2003 1:39 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Ok there we go, that’s why you didn't get it. I wasn't saying that Pluto could be teraformed. What I said was that a planet as far as Pluto could be. Once again this is based on a wide variety of theories, and these particular theories are, you’ll love this, impossible to prove or disprove unless we plan on messing with the atmosphere of an entire planet somewhere. Even then the data would have to be extrapolated (which can be an error in itself) because Pluto is incapable of having that kind of an atmosphere. The point of this was to say that the life zone of a star could be significantly increased, if these people are right.

There is still the problem of plants of course.

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Thursday, June 5, 2003 3:03 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Not going to get into this with you again, but don't you read? I said I wasn't going to look them up, I don't keep a database on my computer of very scientific paper I've ever read. Regardless, Pluto is not without light, it just has very, very small amounts of it. And although heat can be affected the basic starting of (almost) all fuel in nature is photosynthesis, and this can’t be done without a decent supply of life, so either you would need to have all food imported, or make your own light, or find a replacement for photosynthesis. The last would be the most convenient, but it would be the hardest to pull off. Ceritainly there are some things on earth that live off of different systems than photosynthesis, bacteria around hot vents deep in the ocean where light cant reach are one example. I don’t think that this could become prevalent enough to become the origin of biological energy on a planet.

But where it started from, heat. Heat is the important thing here, there are ways to make enough light for a planet, of course it wouldn’t hurt if you had a whole different planet’s resources to use up to do it. But heat, there is a problem, first off you wouldn’t have full spectrum lighting, because if you did you wouldn’t need to heat the place, but the power for that would make the power for “normal” planetary lighting seem like it was a single turbine in a brook.

Global warming that you hear so much about is really fun stuff, it’s kind of like a temperature control, the more crap you have in the air, the less heat escapes, the less crap the more heat escapes. In theory this could be increased to the point where there was almost negligible heat lost. Note the IN THOERY, and this is only in some theories. Now it wouldn’t get that way with what we have on Earth, you would need to introduce new and improved greenhouse gasses. The heat lost will be partially (very small part) replaced by the distant sun, and something like say geothermal power could make up the balance.

The atmosphere would be full of regulating gasses, and you would have to run test consistently to make sure the amount was being maintained. Also there would need to be an initial rather large heating to get it all started. This piles one wild unprovable theory on another, but I’m not the one who did it to begin with so I say, considering we accept unpowered artificial gravity, why not accept these until the scientists who disagree, whom I’m sure Thegn sides with, prove it wrong.

The reason it’s unproveable? Well the size of the atmosphere to test it is hard to get your hands on, I only know of one and don’t plan on messing with it. Further new gasses would need to be created, or a way to increase the heat retention of old ones. It goes on, I think the theories are pretty radical, and not in a surfer kind of way, but I side with Hawking on this, hell I side with Hawking on a lot, if you cant be sure one way or the other then you can’t dismiss it off hand.

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Thursday, June 5, 2003 6:23 PM

WULFHAWK

The mutual array of egotistical ignorence here is impressive, to say the least.

We, humanity, don't know the total knowledge of the universe yet, but you guys are willing to waste a thread playing like you do. Couldn't you take this little scrap to emails or sumthin?

Thanks.

tanstaafl

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Friday, June 6, 2003 3:09 AM

ZEKE023

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
I'm not entirely confident in Joss' knowledge of astrophysics.

I will agree that Joss is more focused on story than on the technology he keeps intentionally vague (which is probably a good thing).

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Friday, June 6, 2003 4:59 AM

ZEKE023

I wish he would just tell us! Come out with a sourcebook!

We could argue these fact indefinately.

I think when it really boils down to it - we have to go with what is actually stated in the show.

And we don't have much to work with.

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Friday, June 6, 2003 5:35 AM

CALDEEN

You can argue anything. In the verse I am running there are many different planets orbiting many different suns. The core worlds were colinized first and have developed the most. If you want to make yours one planetary system do so. However where are the Reavers hiding?

There is a string of beacons that relay the cortex. They run from planet to planet along the major travel routes and can be avoided. For direct communication you have to be in system, planatary system. Longer range communications you can "Send a wave." Basicly an email message. One of the first things the alliance does after terraforming is plop down a box so they can tell the settlers what to do, and ignore thier requests.

As for the engine "The reavers opperate with out core containment. Thats suicide." I assumed they did this because they dont maintain the ships any more than to keep them running. The engine has to be something that leaks bad stuff though. Does fusion? I am not a scientist and dont try to justify these things. It is my game.

Gravity, I dont know. they have some kind of artifical gravity that they can turn on and off at will. The floated in the airlock after getting the loot for Badger and dropped when gravity was turned back on. In out of gas they still had some power, batteries maybe. After all the lights still worked.

What system are you useing? I prefer the interlock system from Cyberpunk 2020. Always remember it is your game. Just be sure to keep notes about the Verse because those gamers are.

"Get a life!?" I am a Gamer! I have LOTS of lives.

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Friday, June 6, 2003 5:54 AM

ZEKE023

Quote:
Originally posted by caldeen:
What system are you useing? I prefer the interlock system from Cyberpunk 2020. Always remember it is your game. Just be sure to keep notes about the Verse because those gamers are.

I am probably going to use GURPS. Although some of my players are really pushing for d20 modern. I'd rather not though. I prefer GURPS.

-Z

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Friday, June 6, 2003 10:06 AM

KENWOOD

Quote:
Originally posted by zeke023:
Quote:
Originally posted by caldeen:
What system are you useing? I prefer the interlock system from Cyberpunk 2020. Always remember it is your game. Just be sure to keep notes about the Verse because those gamers are.

I am probably going to use GURPS. Although some of my players are really pushing for d20 modern. I'd rather not though. I prefer GURPS.

-Z

I'm playing in a D20 modern game right now and it's really a pretty good system. Possibly the best of the published D20 systems. I wouldn't use it for FF though. I'm modifying the Melliniums End system right now for my upcomming game. The system has alot of perks for FF. No HP or such, advantrages to useing handguns and not wearing armor, getting shot is very deadly but not right away. Hard rules to find anymore though.

Later,

ME.

Don't look back, som'thin' might be gainin' on ya.
Who let the pigs play poker?
Evo Shander was right!

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Friday, June 6, 2003 10:20 AM

KENWOOD

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
The mutual array of egotistical ignorence here is impressive, to say the least.

We, humanity, don't know the total knowledge of the universe yet, but you guys are willing to waste a thread playing like you do. Couldn't you take this little scrap to emails or sumthin?

Thanks.

tanstaafl

This was my point when I first questioned Thegn's wet blanket statment. We are far from knowing all the rules and our current best theories say that FTL is possible. ( By the By Thegn's studies apparently includes neither antena & signal theory nor astrophysics. 2-3 light years for binary star systems about killed me. )

Anyway, Joss apparently knows less than any of us about this. His briliance is in story telling not science. For most games I prefer a good set of ideas on how things work but for a FF game it just doesn't fit. It's all FM. I'm just going to say it works how it needs to for the story and that is that. Note that Kaylee is called a mechanic not an engineer. My assumption is that she really doesn't know the physics of how the systems work, just the mechanics. In general none of the characters should have this knowledge. If they did they would
be on a core world earning obscene amounts of money.

My real question is why so many of the guns seem to make that "pneumatic" noise. They still appear to use cased ammo. Any thoughts?

Later,

ME.

Don't look back, som'thin' might be gainin' on ya.
Who let the pigs play poker?
Evo Shander was right!

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Monday, June 9, 2003 1:13 AM

AYEFFKAY

i don't know if this was mentioned, but in war stories it was said that they had 20,000 miles to go to their last drop point. for the sake of argument, let's say it takes them four minutes to go that far (about how much episode time passed, but it could have taken much longer for all we know). that's 5,000 miles per minute. in that case, the firefly 'galaxy' can only be a solar system. at an average speed of 5000 miles per minute, it would take a little over 2 years to travel the distance from earth that was to the sun. it would take about 9400 years to travel from our sun to the nearest star. we haven't seen any evidence of light-speed travel, and even if they could travel at the speed of light it would take 4.2 years to get to the nearest star. and that star doesn't have any planets. the nearest star we know of with planets is 12 times as far away, 112,000 years at 5,000 miles per minute, or 51 years at the speed of light. this isn't star trek

here's another point: if technology existed to travel at or faster than the speed of light, humanity would have already colonized other planets, and they wouldn't have to do it as a result of earth getting used up

conclusion: there is only one sun for all the human terraformed and colonized planets

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Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:42 AM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by Archer:
One thing that strikes me is the incredible stability of the ship. I mean, they pound that thing through atmo, and everybody just stands around like nothing's going on.

So not only do we have some fierce artificial gravity, but we got some massive intertial compensation going on.

Not that I'm asking for any Star Trek TOS camera-tilting effects while everyone grabs something and pretends like they're being rocked or anything.

Minor "The Message" Spoilers:

Select to view spoiler:

In the Message, Kaylee mentions a 'gravity drive': "all this hard bankin'...when the gravity drive and actual gravity start working against each other, it tosses the lunch about a bit"; also in that scene (and earlier, with the warning shots) they are definitely being rocked about and Mal even specifically orders everyone to sit down and 'hold on' as they enter atmo...true they didn't seem to highlight that in the pilot, though.

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Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:09 PM

CALDEEN

I just watched Train Job again and on the alliance cruiser the com officer says the message is from Paridiso in the Georgia System. Up to you as to what you want to belive though.

As for the pnumatic sound I think that is from the guns being equiped to fire in vacume.

"Get a life?!" I am a gamer. I have LOTS of lives!

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Thursday, June 12, 2003 5:44 AM

JUSTME

An excellent explanation for "70 worlds" in only one system (needed if
there is no Faster Than Light Travel) can be found at the yahoo
groups GURPS-Firefly group. To wit that Fireflt could be taking place
on planets (and their moons) that orbit a Blue Giant star. From a
message posted there:

"habitable zone (HZ): An imaginary spherical shell surrounding a star
throughout which the surface temperatures of any planets present might
be conducive to the origin and development of life as we know it. Also
referred to as the ecosphere.[Comment: Also called the "Life-zone"]

The HZ of a highly luminous star would in principle be very wide, its
inner margin beginning perhaps several hundred million km out
[Comment: Let's say the orbit of Mars] and stretching to a distance of
a billion km or more [Comment: Way past the orbit of Pluto]. However,
this promising scenario is spoiled by the fact that massive, bright
stars are much more short-lived than their smaller, dimmer cousins. In
the case of the giant O stars and B stars, these very massive objects
race through their life-cycles in only a few tens of millions of
years-too quickly to allow even primitive life-forms to emerge."

For Firely that is perfect since all of the planets/moons are supposed
to be terraformed anyway, and none seem to have had any life of their
own before.

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Thursday, June 12, 2003 11:03 AM

JIMMYJAMES

that's a good explination justme. i also remember hearing in an ep. can't remember which one, but some guy says that, "the planets are as close to earth as they can make them" or something like that. so i take that to mean that some of the moons and planets don't have the exact amount of gravity. some may be lighter then others. also in "the message" the planet they go to is all frozen and cold. so that would could be much further from the sun then most of the others.

--------------------------------------------------
do you know what the chain of command is? it's the chain i go get and beat you with till you understand who's in rutten command here

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Thursday, June 12, 2003 6:14 PM

MAGUINAN

In one of the Mal voice-overs in the intro he says they colonized/terraformed a whole galaxy of earths. I forget which one, but I'm sure we could find it. Sort of undercuts the "only one solar system" theory.

-maguinan

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Friday, June 13, 2003 7:00 AM

JUSTME

Maguinan,

Who are you going to trust for your facts; a barely educated (albeit cool and heroic) former sergeant, or an educated Shepard? I always assumed the 'whole new galaxy of earths' was hyperbole or simple misunderstanding of the terms, on Mal's part.

Besides, watch the show, do you see any evidence of Faster than Light drive? Any references to 'warp drive', 'hyperdrive', etc? I assume its one big star system, chosen by their ancestors in their huge slower than light colony ships precisely because of its plethora of worlds.

Or maybe a 'hard burn' IS a 'jump to lightspeed'? I prefer they stick as much to real physics as possible.

JustMe

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Friday, June 13, 2003 7:25 AM

ZEKE023

Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
I prefer they stick as much to real physics as possible.

JustMe

I don't think Joss intended there to be physics behind the show - and he made no effort in or outside of the show to explain any of it.

I think it's supposed to be a story. Internally consistent (as Joss in known for) but not necessarily ahearing to any physics that we know of.

Can you name a single other Sci-Fi show that adhears completely to the laws of physics (please don't say Star Trek)?

Even B-5 came close - but it still used bizarre radio active isotopes to explain things that just didn't exist (like jump gates).

I think we need to figure out what is actually happening in the show through the merit of what is said in the show and by Joss.
I think it is a mistake to try to get this show to be scientifically acurate. I don't think that was a concern of the writers.
It is my advice that we just stick to the scripts (and not to the physics textbooks) for our informational source on technology in the 'verse.

-Zeke

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Saturday, October 25, 2003 3:07 PM

FREESOUP

<It is my advice that we just stick to the scripts (and not to the physics textbooks) for our informational source on technology in the 'verse.>>

Couldn't agree more: Joss couldn't care less except that he knows enough that sound doesn't propagate in a vacuum.

But I'm not sure when he started that he could distinguish a star sysetem from a galaxy.

"There are none so blind as they who will not see.

...Hey! Who turned out the lights?"

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Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:09 AM

TRAGICSTORY

DEAR GOD, HE'S HIJACKING THE THREAD BACK TO THE START!!!

Quote:
I'll post this in a new thread so hopefully more people will answer.

I have a few questions about technology in the 'verse.

communication
Are there becons to boost signals over long distances? I thought I heard this. We know that visual communication can only be used up close. Why?

geography
Has anyone come up with an actual citation from the show for this taking place in one solar system or many?

fuel
Anbody catch what they were using for fuel? Doesn't the dead or alive script make reference to a "fission battery"?

that's good for now.

Please respond with any insight.

-Zeke

So here are MY answers![sarcasm] MY answers are right because Fred (the Bunny) from Donnie Darko told me! [/sarcasm]

Communication:
Yes, I would guess there would be beacons along the flight paths in galaxy. Or more correctly, there was a string of beacons placed along the shortest path between two points and that became the flight path as A. it was the shortest distance and B. guaranteed communication lines if you broke down.

Geography:
This dead horse has been repeatedly flogged, but here is my wrench: What if the Earth that got used up was different from the "Earth that was?" Now for the record, I would vote for the "one solar system" theory for one simple reason.

MY REASONING: It is hidden in case you are sick of this disscusion already:

Select to view spoiler:

If there were 10's of galaxies with 100's of terraformed planets and central planets were all in 1 galaxy, then the alliance would not give a shit about uniting the other galaxies, since it would be self sufficient in its own galaxy. We have not seen a "spice planet" yet so it is safe to assume that 1 galaxy is like any other.

Take Puerto Rico, would you really care if it became independant? How about Danger Island? (Did you even know that was US property? Now if it was California, New York or Middle America, then the rest of the USA would be in serious economic trouble. American Higher-ups would definatly fight to keep them in the USA.

Same thing with the Alliance. Why would they care or support to send their sons and daughters out to secure something that does not affect them? If their own galaxy is self sufficent, then why expend all that energy for no profit? Once again, I have not seen a "spice planet" on the show so I am assuming that 1 terraformed planet is as good as the other. So we have to assume that the border planets are vital the Alliance. If it were one galaxy here is how it would be set up:

Assuming that the central planets are the industrial planets, them being rich and flush with the new technologies, then we would assume that their raw materials would come from border planets as well as being their primary consumer. (Mother/colonies trade/exploitation for those of you who remember Colonial History 101)

We could further assume that as an industrial planet, the majority of the central planet's food would be imported. (I'm talking strawberries and fresh food, not food suppliments) This would be supplied by the border planets as well. (i.e. The mormon farmer and his "rain stick")

So in order to secure its business and it edibles, the alliance would have a hearty intrest on keeping control on the border planets. A fine example of this would be Britain's control of its colonies.
(BTW, did you know that the English slashed and burned the whole island of Barbados so that thier colony there would have to import food from their American colonies?)

If I had to guess as the terraforming practices of the alliance, I would guess that they set up each "planet" for one basic need. Food, minerals, etc. and had them rely on the central planets for everything else (even though everything else was acquired from other border planets).

Fuel:
Don't have a clue. It can't be gasoline because it doesn't exist anymore. It can't be nuclear because I don't see how a nuclear reactor would propel you in space (besides heating a gas to increase pressure and give you thrust) So I would guess that all land vehicles are driven by electricity (batteries) which are recharged by a communal nuclear reactor. As for ships, not a clue.

-----------
"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, October 27, 2003 4:06 AM

ZEKE023

You've revived my thread! very cool!

I agree with what you say - as for the geography - I think we just need to agree to disagree and focus on the other bits of technology in the verse.

What episode does the concept of beacons come from? Are these actually mentioned in Out of Gas?

FUEL
It's almost impossible to argue this without getting into the physics I am so deperatly trying to avoid. However, I will say that a fusion reactor or any such thing could work to propel a ship - but would not need refeuling very often. Firefly refuels at every port. ?? If it's a single system - they may be using some sort of advanced jet fuel. *shrug*

Do they ever mention what they use for fuel? How much they pay for it? Or anything about it? It comes up a lot - but I can't remember anything specific.

-Zeke

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Thursday, October 30, 2003 5:24 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Don't they burn so much fuel doing the "Crazy Ivan" manuveur in Serenity that they have to watch their fuel closely to get to the next planet?

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