GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Browncoat Responsibility

POSTED BY: NXOJKT
UPDATED: Monday, August 29, 2005 06:28
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 16776
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Friday, August 26, 2005 9:50 AM

NXOJKT


I'm sure I'll take some heat for this, but I feel compelled to do so anyway.

We, as a community, have a responsibility to represent the Browncoat community. Many of the things that I'm going to say have been posted by other people in the last few days, but I think they bear repeating.

At one time, "Browncoats" were looked at as model fans. We were the patient bunch that was so passionate about our little tv show that when the DVD came out, we bought it. And we bought so much of it that we're getting a movie out of it. We love our Firefly so much that Universal was rewarding us with screenings of the movie months in advance, with so much anticipation that tickets were scalping on e-bay for $200-300.

Now... not so much.

First it started with the idiots who threatened theatre employees when they wouldn't create extra tickets to sold-out screenings. Joss chimed in on that one, and people seemed to comply, as we didn't hear about any more threats.

Then Nathan Fillion tells us of his comic book store fiasco, thinking it'll make for a cute joke for a few nasty letters to show up and for the guy to lose business. Instead, it got so bad that Nathan had to come back on a plead for us to stop the harassment.

Now there's the IESB.net thing. In case you don't know, the story there is that this website, which had been supportive of Serenity - having a lot of video and print content about the movie - did a contest in which they gave away signed copies of the movie poster. They took too long to get the posters out, and after ignoring e-mails from the winners, were bombarded with nasty e-mails from "friends" of the winners; some that were threatening. In response to this, the folks at IESB.net pulled down all of their supportive, positive content, and put up a scathing review. They've since "apologized" and pulled that article down.

It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong in each of these situations. The bottom line is that we, as a community, end up looking bad. Recently, on one large site, we were compared to Scientologists. Why? Because they hunt down every negative thing said about them, and attack it ferociously.

We've got to tone that side of things down. When we go after people negatively, we lose. Instead of positive artciles being written about the money raised at Comic-Con for charity, we get articles written about the "Legion of Whedon" that comes down upon anything negative. Pretty soon we'll have people scared to mention Serenity, in fear that they might mis-state something and feel our wrath.

This stuff is just plain silly, folks.

We have passion for Firefly/Serenity, and that passion is a good thing when it results in positive things. When money is raised for charity, when we help Universal realize that there is a fan base out there, when we spread positive word of this thing that we love. These things are positive. Banding together to try to convince Fox to put out a soundtrack for the show is a good thing. Threatening a web site's moderators because they were negligant is a bad thing.

We have a responsibility to ourselves as individulas to act in a classy way. We have a responsibility to ourselves as a community to represent our community well. We also have a responsiblity to the cast and crew of Serenity to not have them answering questions about our bad behaviour. We have a responsibility to them to not piss off people who can help. No, IESB.net is not the largest movie site on the web... but they were a supportive one. I'm sure that the people who sent e-mails did so with the best of intentions, thinking that they were only helping the situation. But we need to do a better job of picking our battles.

We need to be aware that not everyone who watches Serenity is going to love it. Hell, not every Browncoat who saw a screening loved it. People have a right to dislike what we love. If Roger Ebert gives Serenity a thumbs down, so be it. We're not going to change his mind by writing him scathing e-mails. What we'll do is piss him off and that anger will be directed at Joss for Wonder Woman or Nathan for Slither, etc... There will be some positive reviews. Promote those reviews and ignore the bad ones.

What we need to do is some damage control at this point. We need to turn our reputation around and get it back to where it was 4 months ago.

The next 5 weeks are important ones, and the success of this movie will be partially on our shoulders as a community. Universal will hopefully do their part, and we have to do ours. But we can't come across as fanatics. Because people don't like fanatics.

Think before you act. Remember that your actions, for right or wrong, will reflect not only on the community of fans, but ultimately upon the cast and crew of the movie. That's a big responsibility. If can't decide whether or not to say something, bounce it off of fellow writers here or at the official board for opinions. Or follow Walt Disney's advice via Thumper's mother - "If you can't say nothing nice, don't say nothing at all."


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Friday, August 26, 2005 10:04 AM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL


All I can say is, *bump*

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Friday, August 26, 2005 10:08 AM

SOUPCATCHER


Well said, nxojkt! You've put into words (quite eloquently I might add) something that's been gelling in the back of my mind as more and more of these stories come out.

I'd urge everyone to sit on any e-mail or phone call for at least one night. Things said in the heat of the moment are often more than what we intend. Once you've calmed down ask yourself, "How does what I'm doing affect the Big Damn Goal of putting as many people as possible into theater seats?"

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Friday, August 26, 2005 10:13 AM

GOPHERMUNCHER


well said nxojkt. When I first joined the boards, it seemed to me that browncoats were the nicest bunch of people around, always helping each other and other people. Now... notsomuch. We've got all sorts of factions that target each other within our browncoat ranks as well as attacking newcomers and outsiders. I think this is a good wake up call for people to take a look at what they're doing.

Have you posted this on the universal boards?

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Friday, August 26, 2005 10:17 AM

NXOJKT


Quote:

Originally posted by Gophermuncher:
Have you posted this on the universal boards?



Yeah, I jumped over there and did that as soon as you suggested it. Thanks for the idea.

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Friday, August 26, 2005 10:19 AM

MANOSBDH


Beautifully said, perfection! Exactly what needed to be said. Wouldn't hurt to get it up on Whedonesque to make sure everyone reads it.

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Friday, August 26, 2005 10:35 AM

NEEDY

The road to Hel is paved with good intentions


I couldn't agree more

When I read about this recent IESB incident I was appalled and thought about writing a post about it, but you've done so and you've done it well

I just hope those ones that are in that crowd of trouble-makers are listening

It only takes one or two with a loud enough voice to bring the rest of us Browncoats down

Needy. Male Companion a.k.a. First Boy Whore of Destiny

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Friday, August 26, 2005 10:41 AM

DAELUS


I agree completely. Well said. This needs to be heard by as many browncoats as possible. Last thing we need is to get a reputation as an angry mob.

I agree, Whedonesque would be a good idea.

"My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."

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Friday, August 26, 2005 10:45 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL


yeah...this looks like what i wrote...with better vocabulary and sentence structure...man you folks are a loquacious bunch!

I guess that means I agree....


I agree!


I know none of us wants to 'grow up' but that doesn’t mean we can't be mature.


www.thatweirdgirl.com
---
"...turn right at the corner then skip two blocks...no, SKIP, the hopping-like thing kids do...Why? Why not?"

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Friday, August 26, 2005 11:00 AM

CARDIE


Hear, hear. Acting like a jerk never accomplishes anything. When representing Browncoats out in the world, act like Book, not Jayne.

Cardie

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Friday, August 26, 2005 11:54 AM

CEDRIC


Hear, hear! As one who has at times gone overboard in responding to jerks and idiots, I have to say that nxojkt is absolutely right; it's far better to handle such people in a polite, classy way.

Some reviewers won't like Serenity, which will put it in the same group as every other great work of art ever created. If we expect other people to treat our opinions with respect, we'll have to do the same even for those who find that Whedon's work is not their cup of tea.

"You can't take my show from me,
Because I've got the DVD."
www.BedlamBards.com
Ballad of Joss: http://mp3-postcards.com/listen/?888

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Friday, August 26, 2005 12:35 PM

ODDNESS2HER


Quote:

Originally posted by Cardie:
Hear, hear. Acting like a jerk never accomplishes anything. When representing Browncoats out in the world, act like Book, not Jayne.

Cardie



Actually, that's good advice in almost any situation!

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Friday, August 26, 2005 12:49 PM

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE


Gorram it. I fled the official Universal board to escape the sanctimonious preachifyin' only to find that here at FFF it's just as bad.

Do you think that if we're all little angels, with shiny halos, then nobody will have a word bad to say about us? If folks are looking to paint all the Flans as villians over a couple of bitty incidents -- incidents which may or may not have been blown out of proportion by our detractors, I may add -- then do you think that 99% of us being model citizens will make any difference???

Ninety-nine percent of us already *ARE* taking our Browncoat repurtations seriously. And among those reasonable and fair-minded individuals, there's still some who'll do righteous things that will later blow up in our collective faces. And why is that? Because we can't completely control how events will unfold, people. Plus there's no accounting for the deep-seated bias some folk have against sci-fi fans. So to my mind there's not really any point to crawling around on our bellies in mortal terror, fearin' that any wrong word or any 'wrong' action (don't wear that loud orange hat, now!) could turn prospective ticket-buyers again' us.

Speaking as a Browncoat, I don't cotton to having other Browncoats telling me how to 'behave' or to watch every word I say, or be meek when I'm attacked, lessen I piss off the powers that be. No, I absolutely do not like being dictated to.
Nor do I like being told what to think. If I had inclinations like that, I'd shut off my computer right now and go watch FOXNews.

Today has been real discouraging. So many Browncoats attacking other Browncoats, second-guessing their intentions, telling Browncoats that they owe some "responsibility" to the Collective, er, I mean, "the community."

Guess I'm going to have to stay off the boards until all this well-intended despotism goes away.

"I aim to misbehave"
Says so right on my shirt.

You folk can't take the sky from me.
Not even to "save" the Big Damn Movie.





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Friday, August 26, 2005 1:13 PM

DANTE144


word

"Jesus saves, everyone else takes damage" -tee shirt some girl was wearing at Megacon.

http://dantedreams.com <-my webcomic

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Friday, August 26, 2005 2:02 PM

NXOJKT


Quote:

Originally posted by firefloozysuzie:
Gorram it. I fled the official Universal board to escape the sanctimonious preachifyin' only to find that here at FFF it's just as bad.

Do you think that if we're all little angels, with shiny halos, then nobody will have a word bad to say about us? If folks are looking to paint all the Flans as villians over a couple of bitty incidents -- incidents which may or may not have been blown out of proportion by our detractors, I may add -- then do you think that 99% of us being model citizens will make any difference???

Ninety-nine percent of us already *ARE* taking our Browncoat repurtations seriously. And among those reasonable and fair-minded individuals, there's still some who'll do righteous things that will later blow up in our collective faces. And why is that? Because we can't completely control how events will unfold, people. Plus there's no accounting for the deep-seated bias some folk have against sci-fi fans. So to my mind there's not really any point to crawling around on our bellies in mortal terror, fearin' that any wrong word or any 'wrong' action (don't wear that loud orange hat, now!) could turn prospective ticket-buyers again' us.

Speaking as a Browncoat, I don't cotton to having other Browncoats telling me how to 'behave' or to watch every word I say, or be meek when I'm attacked, lessen I piss off the powers that be. No, I absolutely do not like being dictated to.
Nor do I like being told what to think. If I had inclinations like that, I'd shut off my computer right now and go watch FOXNews.

Today has been real discouraging. So many Browncoats attacking other Browncoats, second-guessing their intentions, telling Browncoats that they owe some "responsibility" to the Collective, er, I mean, "the community."

Guess I'm going to have to stay off the boards until all this well-intended despotism goes away.

"I aim to misbehave"
Says so right on my shirt.

You folk can't take the sky from me.
Not even to "save" the Big Damn Movie.



So it's sanctimonious and preachy to ask people to consider what they're doing before they threaten theatre employees with physical violence or send hate mail to a web site because people are slow to ship something?

No, I don't think that people acting fine will keep bad press from coming about. But I do think that making threats and being assholes will be bring bad press.

It doesn't matter whether or not our detractors are blowing things out proportion. When the people who run a web site like IESB.net call us an angry mob or the people at AICN.com compare us to Scientologists, more people are going to hear that than any "screaming" or "yelling" that we do in talkback forums.

I'm not telling you how to act... I'm saying that if you are one of the morons who is threatening a person over a movie ticket, then you need to consider your actions. If you aren't one of those, then move on.

I'm not saying you should meek when attacked. Who has attacked you? The theatre employee for telling you the movie is sold out? The comic store employee who wanted to make some extra money for his last comic? Or the web site moderator who slow to ship a free prize?

If someone smacks you in the face because you are a browncoat... then fight back. But none of these things warranted the response that they got. Joss chimed in on the first example, telling people not to do it. Nathan chimed in on the second example and asked people to stop. Were they being preachy and sanctimonious? No, they were asking for common sense to be used.

What I'm saying is that it seems at times as though people are seeking these problems. The theatre employees weren't standing out in front of the theatre taunting fans because the movie was sold out. The comic book guy was rude to Nathan, but not to the hundreds of people who wrote hate mail. And the IESB.net people were slow to send something to 4 people... which got them threats from more than 4.

What I'm asking people to do is simply to not go out of their way to pick a fight. I'm not trying to be a despot, because I was asking that people understand that their actions had repurcussions. That isn't really even close to despotism.

Sorry you feel like you're being dictated to. But if you're one of the people threatening other folks on behalf of the browncoat community (the quote was "never cross a browncoat"), then you need to be told that you did something stupid. If you aren't, seeing someone ask that you act with class isn't exactly overly preachy... at least not in the circles I live in.

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Friday, August 26, 2005 2:15 PM

EEP


Thank you for saying this, and saying it so well. There's a reason I rarely post on any of the boards, and it's the behavior of some over-the-top Browncoats. I agree with every word, and I hope some of the fans who act out like this consider that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and bad press is the last kind of "grease" we want.

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Friday, August 26, 2005 2:28 PM

INFRA172


$$$$$ is the only thing that matters. Acting nice didn't save our favorite show. Acting nice won't get companies that put out phony competitions to pony up. You have to hit companies with boycots and negative press.

Threatening theatre owners is out of line but I believe if a company rips you off you don't piss yourself and beg for a nice review.

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Friday, August 26, 2005 2:34 PM

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE


nxojkt,

Gosh! You're right about everything NX!
How would the 99% of us with a decent upbringing, and a minimal amount of smarts, ever know how to
conduct ourselves without benefit of your wise counsel? Until you posted your Guidelines for Responsible Conduct, I was completely out of control. (Sarcasm --where's the emoticon for that?)

Apparently you conventiently missed my point:
The few Browncoats to whom you aim your lecture
probably don't recognize that they're your intended audience, and if they do, they probably don't give a r*t's a$$ about how their actions affect othere.

Whereas, them as has half a brain, and a modicum of decency, may take offense at your presumption that we all don't understand the most obvious rules of civilised conduct, and we
need to be lectured to like errant kindergartners.

I consider your post to be offensive because it a) states the obvious and b) assumes that the rest of us require instruction on how to behave.

In my book, that makes YOU as big a jerk as the people you are complaining about.




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Friday, August 26, 2005 2:53 PM

NXOJKT


Quote:

Originally posted by firefloozysuzie:
nxojkt,

Gosh! You're right about everything NX!
How would the 99% of us with a decent upbringing, and a minimal amount of smarts, ever know how to
conduct ourselves without benefit of your wise counsel? Until you posted your Guidelines for Responsible Conduct, I was completely out of control. (Sarcasm --where's the emoticon for that?)

Apparently you conventiently missed my point:
The few Browncoats to whom you aim your lecture
probably don't recognize that they're your intended audience, and if they do, they probably don't give a r*t's a$$ about how their actions affect othere.

Whereas, them as has half a brain, and a modicum of decency, may take offense at your presumption that we all don't understand the most obvious rules of civilised conduct, and we
need to be lectured to like errant kindergartners.

I consider your post to be offensive because it a) states the obvious and b) assumes that the rest of us require instruction on how to behave.

In my book, that makes YOU as big a jerk as the people you are complaining about.




Wow did you miss the point. You've taken this to the level of name calling, and that demonstrates how much you missed the point. I'm sorry that my post offended you. It wasn't the point. I'm not sure why a plea for good conduct is offensive... so be it. If you think I'm a jerk because I asked people to be nice, then, oh well... I doubt I'll lose sleep over it.

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Friday, August 26, 2005 2:59 PM

NXOJKT


Quote:

Originally posted by infra172:
$$$$$ is the only thing that matters. Acting nice didn't save our favorite show. Acting nice won't get companies that put out phony competitions to pony up. You have to hit companies with boycots and negative press.

Threatening theatre owners is out of line but I believe if a company rips you off you don't piss yourself and beg for a nice review.



Do we know that it was a phony competition? Because they took 6 weeks to ship the prize, that makes it phony. Man, e-bay has sure spoiled the alternate retail world (alternate meaning anything other than walking into a store and picking buying it over the counter). Prior to e-bay's rapid style shipment, 6-8 weeks was pretty standard for mail order or phone order. Assuming someone is ripping you off because they don't ship your stuff the next day is a bit much.

Boycots and negative press are one thing. These people were threatened. And that's crossing the line.

And... as I said... we have to pick our battles. Were 4 people not getting posters in a timely manner worth threatening people? Is that worth going crazy and en mass sending hate mail? If you complain about every little nothing thing, people tend to ignore your complaints.

You are right, money is the only thing that matters. And when the out of control browncoats piss off all of the internet movie sites and that hurts the box office, we'll see just how much money does matter. There are currently 50,000 members of the official fan club. If that's all that go see the movie, then there won't be much to celebrate come Oct 2.

I never said we should beg for a nice review. I said we should not go out of our way to piss people off.

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Friday, August 26, 2005 3:30 PM

PINGJING


I completely agree, NXOJKT, with everything you've said. I think it's clear that you're not lecturing other browncoats or setting dictatorial guidelines - you're simply asking those who are being unreasonable to think about the consequences their actions have. I've been upset by the last few incidents too, and I'm glad you stood up and said something.

We're all actually working towards the same goal here, it's just hard to see that right now.

Julia

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Friday, August 26, 2005 3:46 PM

MANOSBDH


This is where we separate the Browncoats from the Fanboys. We're here to celebrate Serenity, not to complain about everything and use the power inherent in our community to bitch about an inconvenience! It's abuse of our fandom. What we're about is Serenity, and Serenity is about family and doing what's right. We're all here because for whatever reason, Firefly touched us in a very deep way. Now we have a movie, an RPG game, a comic book series, a book... and lots more to come. Whether or not some web page disses us, we have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty. Even if the movie flops and all we have worked for is gone, we still have each other. Let's not degrade what our community into a bunch of fanboys. We want to draw comparisons to Trekkies, not to whiny Nintendo Fanboys (I am a Nintendo fan, but if you ever go onto video game boards, you'll see what I'm referring to). Anger to me is what defines the fanboy from the fan, if you've ever gotten into an argument (not a light hearted debate) about some aspect of Firefly or a continuity question in the movie, you're a fanboy and you need to get over yourself. It's just a movie folks, and we're all here for fun.

So GIVE IT A FREAKING REST ALREADY!

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Friday, August 26, 2005 3:52 PM

DIZ


If it doesn't matter who was to blame in the internet contest incident, then can we stop boiling it down to half-truths and thinly-veiled blame? There was so much more to the incident then a company not shipping a "free" prize to winners the next day. If people are going to keep putting that way, making the winners sound like spoiled brats stomping their feet and demanding Browncoats fight the power (which is not at all what happened), then all that will serve to do is fan the flames some are trying to put out. JMO.

Most of the threads over at the OB have been locked--good. Right now, they only people keeping this going are the people who are continuing to debate this topic. Myself included; I recognize the irony.

As for what happened last night, you have to expect some people would be cheesed off. However, from the beginning of the blow up, most everyone has been advocating cool heads and restraint. I was one of the first people who responded after the email had been posted, and I asked people to halt any actions they may be thinking of doing; many others have concurred. So it's less a matter of what is happening now, and more a matter of learning from this mistake.

What happened sucked. But it's over. Can we just move on? Forget who is right, who is wrong, and just get on with being Browncoats? It's this kind of thing that will continue the divide in the fandom. We don't need to be advised en masse on the Proper Browncoat Behavior. As FFSuzie said, the vast majority of us have level heads. And as someone who has been vocal on this subject (while also advocating ignoring the Sanchezs and their website), I feel that at least a part of this post is aimed at me.

This is a fandom made up of individuals. No matter what we do, what we advise, there will still be people who think threatening a theater manager is the best way to get a ticket, or sending hate-mail to a website over small issue is the way to get things done. We cannot control what these people do. And they will keep doing it. If we get our nose bent out of shape over every incident like this (admittedly, this seems like a big blow up, but in the grand scheme of things, I think it's minor), all we will serve to do is fracture the fanbase. If we let the actions of these few crack-pots bother us to the degree that we are ashamed of being Browncoats, we are allowing them to rob us of all that is great about this fandom: the generous spirit, welcoming and inclusive nature, and smart, funny people.

So, we have a choice. Drop the current issue and make nice with our fellow fans, or keep dragging this out. At this point, we are only hurting ourselves. Let's rise above this, and just drop it.

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Friday, August 26, 2005 4:36 PM

INFRA172


Yes. Lets all write an letter to Fox thanking them for cancelling the show. We don't want to be perceived as being anything other than castrated.

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Friday, August 26, 2005 5:52 PM

NXOJKT


Quote:

Originally posted by Diz:
If it doesn't matter who was to blame in the internet contest incident, then can we stop boiling it down to half-truths and thinly-veiled blame? There was so much more to the incident then a company not shipping a "free" prize to winners the next day. If people are going to keep putting that way, making the winners sound like spoiled brats stomping their feet and demanding Browncoats fight the power (which is not at all what happened), then all that will serve to do is fan the flames some are trying to put out. JMO.

Most of the threads over at the OB have been locked--good. Right now, they only people keeping this going are the people who are continuing to debate this topic. Myself included; I recognize the irony.

As for what happened last night, you have to expect some people would be cheesed off. However, from the beginning of the blow up, most everyone has been advocating cool heads and restraint. I was one of the first people who responded after the email had been posted, and I asked people to halt any actions they may be thinking of doing; many others have concurred. So it's less a matter of what is happening now, and more a matter of learning from this mistake.

What happened sucked. But it's over. Can we just move on? Forget who is right, who is wrong, and just get on with being Browncoats? It's this kind of thing that will continue the divide in the fandom. We don't need to be advised en masse on the Proper Browncoat Behavior. As FFSuzie said, the vast majority of us have level heads. And as someone who has been vocal on this subject (while also advocating ignoring the Sanchezs and their website), I feel that at least a part of this post is aimed at me.

This is a fandom made up of individuals. No matter what we do, what we advise, there will still be people who think threatening a theater manager is the best way to get a ticket, or sending hate-mail to a website over small issue is the way to get things done. We cannot control what these people do. And they will keep doing it. If we get our nose bent out of shape over every incident like this (admittedly, this seems like a big blow up, but in the grand scheme of things, I think it's minor), all we will serve to do is fracture the fanbase. If we let the actions of these few crack-pots bother us to the degree that we are ashamed of being Browncoats, we are allowing them to rob us of all that is great about this fandom: the generous spirit, welcoming and inclusive nature, and smart, funny people.

So, we have a choice. Drop the current issue and make nice with our fellow fans, or keep dragging this out. At this point, we are only hurting ourselves. Let's rise above this, and just drop it.



It's very easy to turn the other cheek and smile and be nice. I was insulted by FFSuzie earlier in this thread, and I did just that, turned the other cheek. But when portions of our fan base are going out of their way to represent our fan base in a negative way, we shouldn't just sit back and let it happen.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things, this was a minor incident... so was the thing with Nathan and the comic book store... so was a couple of idiots threatening a theatre manager. But you put the three together along with the fact that it seems as though in any talkback forum on a movie site every time that someone says something bad about Firefly or Joss there is a war of words, and a pattern forms. We're getting a reputation outside of our community of being anything but, as you put it "the generous spirit, welcoming and inclusive nature, and smart, funny people." We're getting the reputation of being bullies, idiots, and fanatics. We're being compared to scientologists.

This type of stuff is very off-putting. And to people who might be on the fence about seeing Serenity, we can't afford that... not if want to see this story continue. Getting bad press on sites like IESB.net and aintitcoolnews.com is the easiest way to lose the "on the fence" people. And it's likely that those people could be the difference between getting a sequel and not getting one.

If this was an isolated event, I would agree with you that we should just drop it. But it isn't isolated. A pattern has formed.

I also thing the best thing that we can do is dicuss it. Notice that I said "discuss." I didn't say argue, and I didn't say we need to stoop to name calling. We need to discuss it. Because every second that it stays in the eyes of people who are considering acting like idiots possibly makes them consider the sensibility of doing something stupid.

If people get mad and they come here and post about it, rather than send a nasty e-mail to someone, then it's possible we could come up with a better way of handling the situation.

I don't know the specifics of everything involved with the IESB.net thing, I'll readily admit that. And I'm not trying to make the winners out to be anything bad. They won a contest and should have received their prize in a timely manner. The fact that the Sanchezes took so long to get the prizes out without letting the winners know about the delay was bad. The fact that they responded the way that they did showed a marked lack of professionalism. But, despite the fact that they were wrong, they should not have received threatening e-mails. Because when push comes to shove, you have to weigh risk vs. reward. Is 4 people receiving their prize worth getting another black-eye on our community? Is it worth a web-site who had been very supportive of Serenity cutting off that support? Could it have been handled in a way that achieved the goal of getting the prizes out without angering the Sanchezes? I don't know, because I don't them. But I do know that sending threatening e-mails is bad idea when you want to project a community wide image of welcoming, inclusive, smart, and funny.

And I certainly know that threatening a theatre employee for tickets is a bad thing.

I understand where you're coming from on the issue, I really do. And I respect the fact that you were very quick to ask people to wait and not jump on this issue without a night's sleep. I did exactly that. I slept on the issue, and then wrote my post.

I don't think I'm better than anyone else... I don't think I have the right to tell other people how to act. What I posted was a plea to people that they simply understand that whatever they do reflects upon their community.

I work with the athletic dept at the University of Alabama, and am a part of the traveling party for all away football games. We are told before we make our very first trip to be aware that everything that we do reflects upon the University as a whole. Sure, smart people who stop and use godd rationale sense realize that one idiot is not necessarily representative of the whole of a group. But that doesn't justify the person acting like an idiot, and it doesn't mean that everyone is going to stop and think rationally... especially when the fight is being brought to them.

It would be one thing, like I posted above, if things were being done to directly warrant some form of retaliation. Suggesting that we just "sit back and take it" or "be thankful that we've been castrated" is ridiculous, and it's not at all what I'm suggesting.

I'm saying that we don't need to be the aggresser in all situations.

Now, certainly not every Browncoat has acted in a bad way. In fact, I'm guessing, as you and FFSuzie have suggested, that the vast majority of Browncoats do act in a smart, classy, welcoming way. My post was not only meant in a negative way, and if it came across that way, then I apologize. People who do act in that welcoming, inclusive way are also representative of the Firefly community, and they should commended and supported.

Unfortunately we live in a world where bad press rules the day. Browncoats raising money at Comic-Con doesn't get reported on any non-Firefy web sites. But the poor behaviour of a few spreads like wild fire.

You are right, this is a community made up of individuals. And, no, we can't control everyone. But is it really wrong to remind people that everything they do while waving the Browncoat flag reflects upon the Browncoat community? I don't think so. I think it helps those who are doing good things remember why they are doing it, and it supports them in the good things that they do. And I hope that it makes someone who is considering doing something stupid stop and think about it. I don't agree that turning our heads and dropping the issue helps. Sure, it might make this particular issue (the IESB issue) go away... but what happens the next time someone writes a negative article? or the next time someone does something that has us compared to Scientologists? Are we supposed to drop that, too?

I have no personal problem with anyone I have conversed with on this, or any other, message board. I don't think poorly of anyone, regardless of what they've said to me. If someone came out and admited to being one of the people who threated theatre employees, I might. But disagreeing with someone over an issue isn't going to make me not like them. It's not going to fracture the Firefly bond that we share. I can make nice with Firefly fans at the same time that I am encouraging Firefly fans to not declare a holy war on Roger Ebert if he posts a negative review of Serenity. I believe turning a blind eye to this type of activity is what can hurt our community. "One bad apple can spoil the bunch" is the saying. We're always going to have fans who act out of passion instead of thought. That's part of it. But the more we ask that fans consider their actions, the better chance we have of not having Browncoats do something that they might later regret.

If you choose to drop this, I respect that. But please respect that I don't want to drop it - that I think it is an important issue that needs to be talked about.

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Friday, August 26, 2005 6:06 PM

JUMPY


It is disheartening when you are a happy part of a community, where a small few take things to the extreme and suddenly you're branded with labels and negative imagery (sounds pretty familiar on a world stage eh)

But in all honesty, my main concern would not be for 'Browncoats', they know what firefly is, how great it is and how great Browncoats are in general (in my experience here at fff.net).

Whereas if people who have not experienced it before, start hearing negative things about the community, suddenly firefly becomes some taboo show. Its how it works with everything I spose, "Oh the people that watch Star Trek (or whatever) are supposed to be nerds. Therefore Im not going to bother trying to enjoy it."

In the end the public aren't going to care about 'the other side of the story' (the browncoat side). It only takes a little thing on the internet to blow up into something massive.

I don't think NXOJKT is out of line. He (or she I dunno) just wants to make sure that the show and movie he enjoys aren't going to be spoiled over something silly. Those who are responding with anger or sarcasm rather then debate what he is saying are only validating the need to talk about it.

__________________________
There's no show I'd rather see, than the one with Serenity.
You can't take the sky from me...

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Friday, August 26, 2005 6:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Almost hate to say it, but I am with Fire and Infra on this one.

While not exactly excusing the behavior of TWO, repeat TWO people who apparently got out of hand, asking the rest of us to throw ourselves in the dirt and grovel is a bit damned much, I think.

Acting like a decent human being is one thing, and to be frank 99% of the folks on this board do, and always have done this.

That remainin 1% isn't something you can ever do anything about, in any society, and asking the rest of us to prostrate ourselves and beg forgiveness for that 1% is downright insultin.

Infra also makes a good point, one I made *prior* to the series cancellation - playing 'nice' is just begging for it from some people/companies, as history has quite shown us....

HOWEVER, one doesn't have to be a petty, childish jerk about it neither - and lemme be honest with you, we ain't.

Look at all the good works folks at this site have done, and continue to do in the name of the series and general decency ?

A lotta folks, especially on the internet, do not WANT to see cultures or fandoms as stand-up folks, and will find whatever flaws they can to excuse their own ego-fed nastiness, and appeasing them is a downright stupid thing to do, because it begs them to stoop to even lower tactics..
(Which you're ready for Haken, I hope, you know as well as I do exactly what they are...)

Yes, we have a responsibility to conduct ourselves as decent folk, but we do NOT have a responsibility to abase ourselves in 'apology' for folk who do not, and those unwilling to seperate that 1% of jerkishness from the 99% of decency because they WANT to see the jerkishness?

Why the hell should I care what the opinion of those people is ? we're not going to change it no matter what we do anyhow, so asking us to suck up to them is both pointless and insulting.

They don't like the show ? fine.
They don't like the movie? fine.
They don't like me? no problem.

They chose to hate the entirety of a downright cordial community because of one jerk ? that is THEIR problem, not mine - and trying to make it mine is something I just ain't gonna take, not from nobody.

Clear ?

-Frem



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Friday, August 26, 2005 6:48 PM

JUMPY


Fremdfirma I do agree with you but it would be bad if things got extremely out of hand and it compromises the future for firefly and Serenity? (granted it would take something bigger than what has occurred)

Anyway if there does come a time when there's some larger injustice being done people can respond through positive channels and not be jackasses (not talking about anyone in particular i'm just saying)

I don't think what has happened is a major thorn in the side of Browncoats, like most people have said I've never heard of this website before. In the future I guess people should be strong and firm but not threatening and mean. Whether or not they do I can't stop them and like you said not much anyoen can say could change that, but in the end they will spoil it for themselves.

__________________________
There's no show I'd rather see, than the one with Serenity.
You can't take the sky from me...

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Friday, August 26, 2005 7:28 PM

KEVN


NXOJKT,

This is one member of the Browncoats choir you don't have to preach to.

When all this happened on the OB, I posted a few things about trying to be civil, maintain an even strain, etc., and was basically ignored by the people who were so outraged about a little thing, that they couldn't see the damage they were doing. It's a good thing those threads have been locked over there, and I certainly hope that the Browncoat family can be levelheaded about this kind of stuff, and even a bit Zen-like in their demeanor. Perhaps some reading of Sun-Tzu might be in order.:)

All it takes are just a few hidden "reavers" in the Browncoats to bring us all down. And right now, with the movie coming out soon, we need all the "Positive Vibes" we can get.

Kevn

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Friday, August 26, 2005 8:22 PM

NXOJKT


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
While not exactly excusing the behavior of TWO, repeat TWO people who apparently got out of hand, asking the rest of us to throw ourselves in the dirt and grovel is a bit damned much, I think.





When did I ask that? When did I ask anyone to grovel? When to ask anyone to take responsibility for the actions of others?

My post asked people to recognize that their own actions reflect upon the whole community. That's not asking anyone to lay down and take it when something bad happens to them. That's not asking anyone to raise their hands and say, "I did it" when someone else did.

In fact, that's the exact opposite. To the outside world, when one person does something stupid, we all get that label. I'm not arguing that it's right that we all get labeled because 2 or 12 or 200 people do something stupid. But "the Legion of Whedon" (as we were called negatively on one site) has been compared to Scientologist because a few people have decided to make it their mission to refute every single negative thing about Firefly, Serenity, and all things Joss.

I agree with the last part of your post. It's fine with me if people don't like Serenity. It's fine with me if people don't like me. But don't label me, and don't label all of the people that share my same passion because a handful of those people do something stupid. And that is what is happening. People are giving us all this label of being overly fanatical bullies... and that's not true.

I think, for the most part, we do meet the standard of friendliness that welcomes people - as Diz pointed out. Unfortunately we're all getting the negative label because of the actions of a few.

Again, I'm not asking you or me or anyone else to take responsibility for anything that anyone else does. I'm asking the exact opposite. I'm asking that you take responsibility for the things that you do, and that I take responsiblity for the things that I do, and that each individual take responsibility for the things that do -- that's good advice in general, but for the sake of this argument, I'm saying that it is important that when we're flying the Browncoat flag, and doing something on behalf of Serenity (Browncoats), that like it or not, what we do will reflect on other Browncoats, and ultimately on the whole Firefly/Serenity community.

If you go see your local theatre manager about promoting Serenity, there are two ways you could go about it.

1) Go in very prepared and present what it is that you and your fellow browncoats can do to help drum up business for his/her theatre. Talk about how you'd like to work with his staff to bring people out to see this movie that you love.

In that scenario, the theatre GM is likely to have a good impression of you as an individual, and in turn, because you were representing browncoats, he'll have a good impression of browncoats.

2) You walk up to the theatre manager and ask, "Why in the hell aren't you doing more to promote Serenity?! If you don't do more, me and my fellow browncoats will go see the movie at the theatre across town."

In that scenario, the theatre GM is likely to think, "these browncoats are assholes, and I don't care if they go across town."

The IESB.net scenario spells this out perfectly. The Sanchezes had been supportive of Serenity. But because a handful of people, in their eyes were rude to them (whether justified or not), they decided to brand all browncoats worthy of the treatment of the ones that they wanted to get back at. Positive coverage gone, and negative coverage begins. It was stupid on their part, but it still happened.

And that's my point... if we all take responsibility for our own actions and spend this next 5 weeks trying to represent browncoats in the best possible way, then we can hopefully make a difference. Joss himself told us at the screenings that a lot of the success of this movie rides on our shoulders. So we all need to do our part, and part of doing our part is to just represent browncoats in a positive way when we're telling people that we are browncoats.

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Friday, August 26, 2005 9:06 PM

RANTHONY


IMHO, all of this (both pro and con) is much ado about nothing. It just proves the show is popular, even with crazy people. With popularity comes problems that you didn't have when you were part of a failed TV show. Ask the stars of TOS (that would be Star Trek, The Original Series, for the uninitiated) about it, I'm sure all of them have at least one story about crazy fans to relate.

Fandom is fandom. The time to get used to this is *now*, because it isn't going to get any better. Like a good Chex Mix™, in fandom you get the cereal with nuts added, and it isn't worth trying to sort them out. ;-)

Part of the problem is taking this all too seriously. It's entertainment, for pities sake. I don't watch Firefly, buy Firefly DVD's, and recommend Firefly to fellow SF fans because I want it to succeed. That's putting the cart before the horse. Joss doesn't make the show *because* it makes money. He makes the show because he loves what he does. I watch the show because I love what he created. I recommend it because it means something to me. Serenity will succeed, or not, strictly on whether it means something to the people who watch it, *NOT* because we promoted it tirelessly, were really nice to everybody (or alternately, really righteously angry) and got butts in all the theatre seats for the opening weekend. If it doesn't mean anything to the audience, they aren't going to care, and it won't succeed no matter how hard we try. (ask the people who made Enterprise about that scenario)

So, if all this means anything to you, take a cue from an old fan and just let the crazies dance around and scream loud; as long as they don't actually hurt anyone, does it really matter? Pointing out that there are crazies dancing around and screaming just calls attention to the noise. Some of us would rather not notice, and would really rather that the Norms didn't notice. Most of *them* are clueless anyway. ;-)

Besides, if you get all worked up about the fools in our midst, how are you ever going to enjoy the film when it finally comes out?

-RAnthony

"See, morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with, long as she does it quiet-like." -Mal

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Friday, August 26, 2005 10:15 PM

PSYCHICRIVER


Excellent post, I couldn't agree more.

ETA: Okay I'm editing this, I've changed my mind. I've read more of this thread and seen some of the points raised by others, and my reply seems kind of blunt.

I do agree with some of the points you have made, the behaviour of a small percentage of the Browncoats hasn't exactly projected what I'd call the ideal image for us as a whole...but thats not the fault of a lot of people here.

So, lets say we forget it, go watch firefly, eat some cheese, and try and make each day better than the one before?

PsychicRiver

"Two by two, hands of blue."
"We'll take care of each other. I'll knit!"
"I swallowed a bug."

Summer Glau to me - "You are so photogenic."

Me -

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Friday, August 26, 2005 10:16 PM

DIZ


II would just like to say one more thing, then I am off to bed.

Me: I'm a Browncoat.
General Public: A wha?
Me: A Browncoat. You know, a fan of the TV show Firefly and the upcoming movie, Serenity.
General Public: A fan of wha?
Me: Don't pretend you've never heard of us. We have a bad rep on AICN, and a one other website. Man, that was not a fun war we fought with that other website. And did you hear what happened in that comic book store in Edmonton?
General Public: Acen? What's acen? Did you say that you're a brownpants?

Okay, I'm tired, and perhaps laying the snark on a bit too deep. The rep fans of Whedon have over at AICN is from a few trolls that post on the site (one of whom trolls the BC board-- tonay), and also, Quint likes to mock Herc and his Joss love. No one I know in RL, outside of one or two people, has ever heard of AICN, and only a few people understand what I mean when I say "Browncoat". Maybe this means I should be recruiting harder!

My point is, the tarnishing of our rep is happening in very small circles. Like, tiny. AICN might be a huge site to the fanboys, but to the general movie-going public, not so much. And even the fanboys who frequent AICN know it's a troll pit. We have a huge supporter over there in Herc, and don't think for a moment Serenity won't get huge coverage on AICN the closer we get to release. But I digress.

I understand where you are coming from, but I guess where I am having problems is that I see blame and finger-pointing, rather then building up. If the message truly is, "Browncoats act civil", then I think one of the first things we should be doing is forgiving and forgetting. It is so easy to Monday-quarterback what happened, but while it was happening (the original post was up for almost a week before it all blew up), not one person stepped in and said, "this here might not be a great idea, remember what happened to Nathan?" Now I know this isn't quite fair. I've read posts on the BC board for calls to action because some reporter got something wrong in a writeup, and rolled my eyes mightily. Perhaps I should've posted my thoughts on how it's not such a great idea to flood small town newspaper reporters email boxes with hate mail. My failing. And I didn't do it with this post because I felt they winners were justified in their anger, and as someone who submitted an entry myself, I wanted to support them. So I sent one short, polite email. No one had any idea what would happen; I think if they did, things would've gone a different way.

My point in this is not so much turn the other cheek and hope it all goes away. Rather, recognize that in any fandom, you have zealots. And, according to the public, ALL fandoms are filled to the brim with freaks. I mean, if we REALLY didn't want to turn off the general public, then perhaps we shouldn't be wearing goofy orange knit hats, Chinese dresses and combat boots, and carrying parasols to opening day. 'Cause nothing scares the public like cosplay! I'm kidding, of course (well, except it does scare them). But there is a point: Who cares what the general public thinks of us geeky fans? It won't make a difference to the box office. It won't, I promise. Did it make a difference to Star Wars? Lord of the Rings? Any of the successful comicbook movies? A good movie is a good movie, and ours will stand on it's own, no matter what people think of our fandom.

That said, I hate for us to be lumped together because of the actions of a few nutjobs. So, to come back around to what you're saying, I kinda agree, said as much in another thread, but I have decided not to let the actions of a few whacks bother me. My main concern now is restoring the peace around here, and hoping all the ill will fades. Firefly and Serenity boards are my oasis in a busy, hectic life. I've been involved in fandoms before (anime and comics; you think OUR fandom has issues-- we're mere babes-in-baskets compared to those fandoms), and this has been the best fan experience I've ever had. I just hope I'm not deluding myself that it can stay that way.

*if none of this makes sense, it's because it's 3am now, and I should be in bed. :)

**edited for clarity. It all makes sense now, hee! (yeah right; off to bed, Diz)

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Friday, August 26, 2005 10:28 PM

DIZ


RAnthony: Perfect. Exactly one of the points I have been trying to make, but you've just made it 100x better then any of my rambling posts.

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 1:48 AM

NONA


I just registered to make a comment here. I'm not really a browncoat (...well, I do own the DVDs and I think I can drag some friends of mine in Serenity, but I just love watching movies and TV shows in general). I love the fact that you have this big community of fans and I hate the fact that everytime I check if there is any news on the movie on imdb.com or AICN I see this really long flame wars. The problem is once I start I can't stop reading them and all the bad things people say about firefly and the browncoats really make me depressed. Those discussions are often pointless, because none of these people are ever going to change their mind about things they like and things they don't like. That's the point about having an opinion. It is always subjective and so are reviews no matter how much they try to hide it. What I wanted to say: I always had the impression that browncoats are on the whole nice and intelligent people who support their favourite show with a great passion. There is nothing wrong with that. Now I don't visit talkbacks and message boards anymore, because all the bashing has made it difficult for me to enjoy my favourite movies. Also, every movie has it's flaws and I'm starting to take it less seriously. I don't know a lot about these incidents mentioned here, but most people know that there are always two sides to a story. But I was a little disappointed. Just a little. So it is good to see that some of you are concerned, but don't get disheartened, because you have not done anything wrong.
Sorry, if I made mistakes. English is not my first language...

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 2:51 AM

JADEHAND


Sorry I'm late to the party (again), But I just wanted to say that I too, agree with the heart of what's being said here by Nxojkt. I love the Browncoat community. There's something about knowing that if someone truely wrongs you, Thousands of people "have your back". I was Proud when Nathan came on and asked for support and got it. It's a good thing to have thousands of people stand up for you. But, "No need to get hands on." As proud as I was to see so many Stand Up for Nathan, I was disappointed to see people start shoving.

As TWG said: "I know none of us wants to 'grow up' but that doesn’t mean we can't be mature."



Visit WWW.Marillion.Com for a better way to live

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 2:57 AM

NERVOUSPETE



I agree with this article, the flaming and the fanatascism must stop. It'll only turn people against Joss and Serenity, and it's very humiliating that Nathan had to step in and plead for flans to stop harrassing that bloke.

It was an unjustly cancelled TV show, but whatever degree of excellence it posessed, it is in the end just a TV show. It's not worth making people's life hell over.

If you see something that annoys you over Serenity, say, a bad review, then don't go and attack the reviewer. Just go, "Tch, eh?" and then work to spread an equal amount of good influence on the net and at home. Post good reviews elsewhere, recommend instead of attacking a fellow's personal opinions.

This is the only show where I've ever felt moved to be a proper fan of, and I'd hate to see it ruined by overly-enthusiastic fans acting before they think about the consequences. These aren't faceless people out there you're attacking, they have lives, hopes and problems like us.

Stay cool, stay promoting, stay away from those reviewer email links!

Your's, concernedly whilst munching on an eccles cake, Pete


"If you can keep your head whilst others... eurgh! Ack! I've spilt my ink! Ugh! Ink on my trousers! Agh! Ink on my shirt! My only hope! The window! Aieeeeee!" (Falls to death)
- Jonathan Nash

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 3:01 AM

NERVOUSPETE



Hey, Diz! Good points, and I agree that the general public will never really hear of us 'flans', but that's always been besides the point as to this case in my book.

It's more that we're actually disrupting and upsetting people, or causing a nuisance, and that shouldn't be stopped on the grounds of that it might damage Serenity, it should be stopped on the grounds that it's a crappy thing to do to people.

Pete

"If you can keep your head whilst others... eurgh! Ack! I've spilt my ink! Ugh! Ink on my trousers! Agh! Ink on my shirt! My only hope! The window! Aieeeeee!" (Falls to death)
- Jonathan Nash

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 3:21 AM

SPINLAND


I'm with Diz on this. I'm a recent convert, living in a world where almost no one has heard of Firefly, nor cares. Her snarky little intro was, actually, a perfect description of what all this local controversy actually means in the world picture. It's gotten bigger here (and at the BC board) than probably all of the external influence it's had, combined.

Just be the best person you know how to be, and step over the piles of troll.

----
I can see you.

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 3:59 AM

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE


Quote:

Originally posted by nxojkt:
I'm sure I'll take some heat for this, but I feel compelled to do so anyway.

We, as a community, have a responsibility to represent the Browncoat community. Many of the things that I'm going to say have been posted by other people in the last few days, but I think they bear repeating.

At one time, "Browncoats" were looked at as model fans. We were the patient bunch that was so passionate about our little tv show that when the DVD came out, we bought it. And we bought so much of it that we're getting a movie out of it. We love our Firefly so much that Universal was rewarding us with screenings of the movie months in advance, with so much anticipation that tickets were scalping on e-bay for $200-300.

Now... not so much.

First it started with the idiots who threatened theatre employees when they wouldn't create extra tickets to sold-out screenings. Joss chimed in on that one, and people seemed to comply, as we didn't hear about any more threats.

Then Nathan Fillion tells us of his comic book store fiasco, thinking it'll make for a cute joke for a few nasty letters to show up and for the guy to lose business. Instead, it got so bad that Nathan had to come back on a plead for us to stop the harassment.

Now there's the IESB.net thing. In case you don't know, the story there is that this website, which had been supportive of Serenity - having a lot of video and print content about the movie - did a contest in which they gave away signed copies of the movie poster. They took too long to get the posters out, and after ignoring e-mails from the winners, were bombarded with nasty e-mails from "friends" of the winners; some that were threatening. In response to this, the folks at IESB.net pulled down all of their supportive, positive content, and put up a scathing review. They've since "apologized" and pulled that article down.

It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong in each of these situations. The bottom line is that we, as a community, end up looking bad. Recently, on one large site, we were compared to Scientologists. Why? Because they hunt down every negative thing said about them, and attack it ferociously.

We've got to tone that side of things down. When we go after people negatively, we lose. Instead of positive artciles being written about the money raised at Comic-Con for charity, we get articles written about the "Legion of Whedon" that comes down upon anything negative. Pretty soon we'll have people scared to mention Serenity, in fear that they might mis-state something and feel our wrath.

This stuff is just plain silly, folks.

We have passion for Firefly/Serenity, and that passion is a good thing when it results in positive things. When money is raised for charity, when we help Universal realize that there is a fan base out there, when we spread positive word of this thing that we love. These things are positive. Banding together to try to convince Fox to put out a soundtrack for the show is a good thing. Threatening a web site's moderators because they were negligant is a bad thing.

We have a responsibility to ourselves as individulas to act in a classy way. We have a responsibility to ourselves as a community to represent our community well. We also have a responsiblity to the cast and crew of Serenity to not have them answering questions about our bad behaviour. We have a responsibility to them to not piss off people who can help. No, IESB.net is not the largest movie site on the web... but they were a supportive one. I'm sure that the people who sent e-mails did so with the best of intentions, thinking that they were only helping the situation. But we need to do a better job of picking our battles.

We need to be aware that not everyone who watches Serenity is going to love it. Hell, not every Browncoat who saw a screening loved it. People have a right to dislike what we love. If Roger Ebert gives Serenity a thumbs down, so be it. We're not going to change his mind by writing him scathing e-mails. What we'll do is piss him off and that anger will be directed at Joss for Wonder Woman or Nathan for Slither, etc... There will be some positive reviews. Promote those reviews and ignore the bad ones.

What we need to do is some damage control at this point. We need to turn our reputation around and get it back to where it was 4 months ago.

The next 5 weeks are important ones, and the success of this movie will be partially on our shoulders as a community. Universal will hopefully do their part, and we have to do ours. But we can't come across as fanatics. Because people don't like fanatics.

Think before you act. Remember that your actions, for right or wrong, will reflect not only on the community of fans, but ultimately upon the cast and crew of the movie. That's a big responsibility. If can't decide whether or not to say something, bounce it off of fellow writers here or at the official board for opinions. Or follow Walt Disney's advice via Thumper's mother - "If you can't say nothing nice, don't say nothing at all."




Since Nxojkt has now characterized her(?) exchanged with me as "Firefloozy insulted me and I turned the other cheek" perhaps it's time that I re-quote NXo's original post and explain why I am reacting as I am to it.

First, some of you may not know that this identical thread appeared on the Univ Board at the same time Nxojkt started it here on FFF.

At the time Nxojkt started these threads, three similar discussions on the Univ Board were being "locked down" by Serenity_Leader (Universal's rep and board moderator) with a plea to let the whole matter rest; she asked that the whole discussion be dropped. But as you can see, Nxojkt felt otherwise. According to her Universal profile, it appears that Nxojkt has only posted 3 times on that board since September 2004. That's only one post until s/he felt the overwhelming compulsion to circumvent Serenity_Leader's attempts to stop the bad feelings being generated by this topic.

Look at the first line of Nxojkt post, people, and you should recognize this thread for what it is: Somebody keeping the argument going for purposes of his or her own. By stating, "I'm sure I'll take some heat for this..." the author telegraphs her intention to stir the pot.

Look at the lengthy posts s/he devotes to defending herself and putting down any difference of opinion from other Browncoats. Yup, that's really turning the other cheek and making a plea for peace.

Trolls don't always growl and snarl and attack you from the front. Sometimes they come wearing the sanctimonious robes of a martyr, speaking in the calm tones of moral authority, and covering themselves with a cloak of virtue.

The mirror "Browncoat Responsibility" thread is now buried in the underpages of the Universal Board. I say, let it die a quiet death here and let's stop this fractious Browncoat-on-Browncoat blaming session.

How 'bout that clip during "Firefly" last night?
I think there's a thread somewheres that discusses how hi-larious it is...:-)


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Saturday, August 27, 2005 4:03 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Alright - everybody go watch an ep of Firefly right now! Or read one of the comics or a chapter from Finding Serenity... and for God's sake somebody wake up Zoid...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 5:51 AM

PURPLEPENGUIN91


I decided I had to post here, then I'll be sure to watch an episode. :)

Personally I agree with NXOJKT, and I think that 1% of people acting out of hand, could ruin all of our reputation, and ultimately cause the movie and cast to suffer the consequences. And some of you say, well those 1% are never gonna learn, is that the kind of attitude that Firefly has taught you? I have always felt, and Firefly has also supported this feeling, that you do what you feel is right, even if it seems like a lost cause. And I know that sending hate mail because the shipping was slow, or threatening theatre owners is wrong no matter how over blown it is now, or what the circumstances were. I also know that I may be in the situation where I would send hate mail to someone, but reading a post like this and seeing how my actions affect peopel would probably cause me to reconsider.

I understand not everyone feels this way, and I respect that, but I would just like to know, how is acting negative to people, who have the potential to spread good word about Serenity (which would aso help with the money thing, since some people say thats all that matters), going to help? I really want to know that, maybe its because your mad at you just want to do something, then go punch a pillow (lol) or something else thats harmless and where you can release your anger. :)

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 9:03 AM

NXOJKT


Quote:


First, some of you may not know that this identical thread appeared on the Univ Board at the same time Nxojkt started it here on FFF.

At the time Nxojkt started these threads, three similar discussions on the Univ Board were being "locked down" by Serenity_Leader (Universal's rep and board moderator) with a plea to let the whole matter rest; she asked that the whole discussion be dropped. But as you can see, Nxojkt felt otherwise. According to her Universal profile, it appears that Nxojkt has only posted 3 times on that board since September 2004. That's only one post until s/he felt the overwhelming compulsion to circumvent Serenity_Leader's attempts to stop the bad feelings being generated by this topic.

Look at the first line of Nxojkt post, people, and you should recognize this thread for what it is: Somebody keeping the argument going for purposes of his or her own. By stating, "I'm sure I'll take some heat for this..." the author telegraphs her intention to stir the pot.

Look at the lengthy posts s/he devotes to defending herself and putting down any difference of opinion from other Browncoats. Yup, that's really turning the other cheek and making a plea for peace.

Trolls don't always growl and snarl and attack you from the front. Sometimes they come wearing the sanctimonious robes of a martyr, speaking in the calm tones of moral authority, and covering themselves with a cloak of virtue.

The mirror "Browncoat Responsibility" thread is now buried in the underpages of the Universal Board. I say, let it die a quiet death here and let's stop this fractious Browncoat-on-Browncoat blaming session.



Wow... you really did take this thing personally.

Yep, I posted the same post on the Universal board. I do so at the request a people here. Look at the first few repsonses to my post, and you'll see suggestions to do so. You'll also see me affirm that I did so... so I don't think it's a secret that I posted it there.

I've only posted over there 3 times, you're right. That should tell you that I don't visit there that often (just don't like it as much). If I don't visit there, then I probably wouldn't have seen other posts saying the same thing, and wouldn't have known that the board moderator had asked for it to be dropped. I'd have disagreed with the moderator there, but...

You claim that I am putting down other posters' difference of opinion. I've been very careful not to do so. In fact, I've clearly said that I respect other people's opinions, and only ask that they respect mine.

I'm not being a martyr because I'm not taking blame for anyone else's actions, and I'm not sacrificing myself for anything.

I'm sorry that you think I have some hidden agenda. I guess it's tough to tell people's true intentions on the internet. But my intentions here were simply to ask people to think about their actions before they act on behalf of browncoats. And I just don't see why that makes me sanctimonious, a martyr, or a jerk.

If you want this thread to die, then let it die. Don't read it. But the same way that you thought it was in poor taste for me to ask browncoats to think before they act, I think it's in poor taste to tell browncoats what they should and shouldn't talk about it. Some of us think this is important... you don't. It's a difference of opinion. I respect your right not to talk about. But I'm not going to search the internet for your history of posts... I'm just going to keep talking to the people who want to talk about it. If no one does, then that's fine, I'm not going to keep talking just to hear myself talk.


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Saturday, August 27, 2005 9:27 AM

NXOJKT


Quote:

Originally posted by Diz:

My point is, the tarnishing of our rep is happening in very small circles. Like, tiny. AICN might be a huge site to the fanboys, but to the general movie-going public, not so much. And even the fanboys who frequent AICN know it's a troll pit. We have a huge supporter over there in Herc, and don't think for a moment Serenity won't get huge coverage on AICN the closer we get to release. But I digress.

I understand where you are coming from, but I guess where I am having problems is that I see blame and finger-pointing, rather then building up. If the message truly is, "Browncoats act civil", then I think one of the first things we should be doing is forgiving and forgetting. It is so easy to Monday-quarterback what happened, but while it was happening (the original post was up for almost a week before it all blew up), not one person stepped in and said, "this here might not be a great idea, remember what happened to Nathan?" Now I know this isn't quite fair. I've read posts on the BC board for calls to action because some reporter got something wrong in a writeup, and rolled my eyes mightily. Perhaps I should've posted my thoughts on how it's not such a great idea to flood small town newspaper reporters email boxes with hate mail. My failing. And I didn't do it with this post because I felt they winners were justified in their anger, and as someone who submitted an entry myself, I wanted to support them. So I sent one short, polite email. No one had any idea what would happen; I think if they did, things would've gone a different way.

My point in this is not so much turn the other cheek and hope it all goes away. Rather, recognize that in any fandom, you have zealots. And, according to the public, ALL fandoms are filled to the brim with freaks. I mean, if we REALLY didn't want to turn off the general public, then perhaps we shouldn't be wearing goofy orange knit hats, Chinese dresses and combat boots, and carrying parasols to opening day. 'Cause nothing scares the public like cosplay! I'm kidding, of course (well, except it does scare them). But there is a point: Who cares what the general public thinks of us geeky fans? It won't make a difference to the box office. It won't, I promise. Did it make a difference to Star Wars? Lord of the Rings? Any of the successful comicbook movies? A good movie is a good movie, and ours will stand on it's own, no matter what people think of our fandom.

That said, I hate for us to be lumped together because of the actions of a few nutjobs. So, to come back around to what you're saying, I kinda agree, said as much in another thread, but I have decided not to let the actions of a few whacks bother me. My main concern now is restoring the peace around here, and hoping all the ill will fades. Firefly and Serenity boards are my oasis in a busy, hectic life. I've been involved in fandoms before (anime and comics; you think OUR fandom has issues-- we're mere babes-in-baskets compared to those fandoms), and this has been the best fan experience I've ever had. I just hope I'm not deluding myself that it can stay that way.

*if none of this makes sense, it's because it's 3am now, and I should be in bed. :)

**edited for clarity. It all makes sense now, hee! (yeah right; off to bed, Diz)



Sorry for editing your post, I don't know if it's proper etiquette here or not.

Yes, currently the bad press is limited to a few small circles. And if that's where it stays, then we'll all be fine. But I've seen things escalate over the course of the last few months, and that worries me.

In the 1980s there was a little bad press about how weird the kids who play Dungeons and Dragons were, but nobody thought much about it. Then a couple of kids took their action into the streets and robbed a couple of stores. Then a couple of kids got overly distraught about their characters having been killed, and they killed themselves. Next thing you know... all D&D was labeled bad, and all people who played D&D were lumped together as freaks. My mother, who had never questioned my brother and I playing, was now hesitant to let us continue to do so.

Now, no, right now nothing has happened in the Serenity world to take things this far. But what happens if a browncoat gets shut out on opening night and can't get a ticket, so he/she decides to beat up someone in the parking lot and steal their ticket.... That might make mainstream press.

That's an extreme example, but that's the only side of it. There's the "clean rep" side of things. Since I saw Nathan, Jewel, and Adam at DragonCon last year I've thought the same thing - If they ever get this cast (along with the hilarious Alan Tudyk) to do any of the mainstream talk shows, people will go see the movie based on how funny this cast is.

Trust me when I tell you that before signing up a guest for a cult like show, talk shows are going to look around and find out what the community is like. And us having the bad rep that we're rapidly gaining is the easiest way to the booking agents of those shows to just shrug their shoulders and say, "I don't wanna get into that."

I'm not trying to point fingers or lay blame. That's been the furthest thing from my mind. I'm simply wanting people to stop and consider the consequences of their actions before they do anything (good or bad), when they are doing it representing themselves as a browncoat.

I think that dressing up has become accepted on a mainstream level. Sure, people might think that those who dress up are odd, but it's become accepted. Our local newspaper had pictures of people dressed up for the opening of Revenge of the Sith and the release of the new Harry Potter Book. I think that's reached the point of intrigue for people, and that seeing fans dressed up will automatically link us to Potter, Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings. And that might make a few people take notice.

I'd like to agree that Serenity will make its money no matter what people think of the fandom, but it's reaching a point where I can't. The reason I say this is that we're causing supporters to stop supporting. If that happens enough times, then it just makes it that much harder to spread the word.

Sure, maybe all of this is being overly cautious on my part. But I want to see a sequel. I saw Serenity and loved it, and I don't want anything to happen that keeps us all from getting to see more stories of our crew and their boat.

Forgive and forget? Sure, I have no problem with someone doing something with the best of intentions allowing something to get out of hand. I ask that they consider things a little more carefully the next time, but I don't hold any ill will towards them. But those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Yeah, that's over-stating things a bit, but it's true. If we just turn our heads and forget everytime a browncoat smears the rep of the community, then it happens again and again and again.

I have no ill will towards anyone on this site. You disagree with me? That's fine. I don't take this stuff personally.

I know we're no where near as bad as anime or comic books fandoms. And I don't want us to approach those. That's the whole point. If things keep happening, then we get that bad. Maybe that's two years from now, but we still get there.

I write a lot of my posts at 2 or 3 in the morning also, so I know that clarity sometimes takes a hit. Some things I've said have rubbed a few people the wrong way, and for that, I'm sorry.

I keep saying that we should pick our battles. And I believe that. I said when I opened my original post that I knew I would take some heat. That wasn't to lay out some personal agenda, as has been accused. It was to let you know that I think taking steps to save the reputation of our community is a battle worth fighting. I just don't agree with turning my head an ignoring that 1% just because it is difficult to do anything about it. I can't change what they do, but I can change what I do. And if each individual just thinks about what they do before they act, then things get a little better - hopefully.

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:24 AM

AX


Hmm...I respect the truth of what you're saying, but I guess I wonder if these incidents are really all that indicative of the majority of us Browncoats. You paint it almost as though we've changed from what we were, but I'm not sure that's truth. You've got to keep in mind that Browncoats are a group of people, and just like any other group of people we all have different ideas about how to act and what exactly it means to be 'responsible'. There are always going to be those who want to go on the attack and cause trouble. It's inevitable. Every group of people has some like that.

Firefly is an amazing show, but I doubt very much that it's changed the above facts.

All that said--I agree with you. People _should_ think before they act.

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 11:32 AM

DIZ


Hello again. Had sleep. We'll see if that makes me any more lucent and less wandering in my points. :)

A couple of more things. First, when I say "ill will", I am not necessarily talking about you and your posts. I am speaking more in general. After the Big Blow Up, I saw quite a few angry posts aimed at folks who, while not completely blameless, did not deserve the condemnations that were thrown around. I've been involved in this situation from the beginning, and trust me: we were all surprised to see how quickly it spun out of control. I believe most, if not all, of the winners acted on the up-and-up. I've seen a couple of them around the boards, and one of them belongs to my Browncoat group. I felt really awful for what people were saying about them on the boards, and many of those folks did not know the full story. It was a tempest-in-a-teapot, really. I've said about 12 dozen times, I do not condone sending threatening emails to anyone, but I also believe the email sent to the winners was way out of line... and I am rehashing this. Sorry. I am just trying to make it clear where I am coming from.

And while I agree with FFSuzie on a few of her points, I am not with her on your intentions. I do believe your intentions are good; but then, so were mine when I sent the Sanchezes an email.

My comments on cosplay were tongue-in-cheek. I cosplay myself, and will be wearing said Chinese dress/combat boots combo on opening day. But I think you give the general public too much credit if you think they think it's acceptable thing. The reason the press covers it is because they all like to point out the freaks.

As far as D&D goes, it's always had the whiff of the occult about it, and that really freaks some people out. Role playing in general scares some of the Norms because it involves magic and witches and other such things. Fans of TV shows or movies tend to be viewed as pretty harmless goof-balls (even fans of shows like BUFFY, which is steeped in the occult). Now if people start to beat up others in the name of Serenity, that might change, but I don't really see that happening. I don't see our fans being any worse than Star Wars or Star Trek fans, so [shrug].

One last thing: if someone is deranged enough to beat up a theater patron for tickets, do you really think an appeal for good behavior will make them reconsider? Once again, I think we are just going to have to make peace with the fact that our fandom, as it grows, will have whacks. We can plead with them to show decorum, but whacks rarely listen. That's why they're whacks.

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:32 PM

DIZ


OMG, this is like a disease. I've not posted so much in two months as much as I've posted in two days.

I just wanted to point out, on this very site, there is now a thread calling out a "reporter" (I use the term loosely) for saying Serenity is for people who can't follow a Star Trek episode, and proceeded to call the tagline "gay". All this from viewing only the trailer. People are bragging about the comments they are posting at the website. No one yet has warned them off, or reminded them they should remember they are representing Browncoats. Do you see how harmlessly this starts? The reporter is a complete tool, I think we can all agree. And right now, everyone is rah-rah, let's post our thoughts on that website about this tool. Many of the comments left were left after the whole blow up over the poster contest. The reporter and editor have responded a couple of times, and people are still posting thoughts. Seems to me like they are a bit taken aback at the fans who are posting.

And this is all going on despite the fact there is a news story right here, asking people to be thoughtful.

Not sure of my point, really. Just find it interesting, given the current climate, is all. Perhaps those of us involved in this debate have our blinders on so firmly that we haven't seen that this has already blown over, and lessons may or may not have been learned.

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:45 PM

NXOJKT


Quote:

Originally posted by Ax:
Hmm...I respect the truth of what you're saying, but I guess I wonder if these incidents are really all that indicative of the majority of us Browncoats. You paint it almost as though we've changed from what we were, but I'm not sure that's truth. You've got to keep in mind that Browncoats are a group of people, and just like any other group of people we all have different ideas about how to act and what exactly it means to be 'responsible'. There are always going to be those who want to go on the attack and cause trouble. It's inevitable. Every group of people has some like that.

Firefly is an amazing show, but I doubt very much that it's changed the above facts.

All that said--I agree with you. People _should_ think before they act.



That's my whole point - these incidents are not indicative of Browncoats as a whole. But when people represent themselves as Browncoats and do something stupid, it ends up reflecting on all of us. That's an unfortunate side effect of being a part of a passionate community.

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:57 PM

PSYCHICRIVER


Whoa did I lose track of what we're arguing about.

Make love, not war!

PsychicRiver

"Two by two, hands of blue."
"We'll take care of each other. I'll knit!"
"I swallowed a bug."

Summer Glau to me - "You are so photogenic."

Me -

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 1:02 PM

NXOJKT


Quote:

Originally posted by Diz:
Hello again. Had sleep. We'll see if that makes me any more lucent and less wandering in my points. :)

A couple of more things. First, when I say "ill will", I am not necessarily talking about you and your posts. I am speaking more in general. After the Big Blow Up, I saw quite a few angry posts aimed at folks who, while not completely blameless, did not deserve the condemnations that were thrown around. I've been involved in this situation from the beginning, and trust me: we were all surprised to see how quickly it spun out of control. I believe most, if not all, of the winners acted on the up-and-up. I've seen a couple of them around the boards, and one of them belongs to my Browncoat group. I felt really awful for what people were saying about them on the boards, and many of those folks did not know the full story. It was a tempest-in-a-teapot, really. I've said about 12 dozen times, I do not condone sending threatening emails to anyone, but I also believe the email sent to the winners was way out of line... and I am rehashing this. Sorry. I am just trying to make it clear where I am coming from.

And while I agree with FFSuzie on a few of her points, I am not with her on your intentions. I do believe your intentions are good; but then, so were mine when I sent the Sanchezes an email.

My comments on cosplay were tongue-in-cheek. I cosplay myself, and will be wearing said Chinese dress/combat boots combo on opening day. But I think you give the general public too much credit if you think they think it's acceptable thing. The reason the press covers it is because they all like to point out the freaks.

As far as D&D goes, it's always had the whiff of the occult about it, and that really freaks some people out. Role playing in general scares some of the Norms because it involves magic and witches and other such things. Fans of TV shows or movies tend to be viewed as pretty harmless goof-balls (even fans of shows like BUFFY, which is steeped in the occult). Now if people start to beat up others in the name of Serenity, that might change, but I don't really see that happening. I don't see our fans being any worse than Star Wars or Star Trek fans, so [shrug].

One last thing: if someone is deranged enough to beat up a theater patron for tickets, do you really think an appeal for good behavior will make them reconsider? Once again, I think we are just going to have to make peace with the fact that our fandom, as it grows, will have whacks. We can plead with them to show decorum, but whacks rarely listen. That's why they're whacks.



It sounds like you and I are pretty close to agreement on this issue. If it seemed as though I was placing blame, then I apologize. Certainly the e-mail sent by the Sanchezes was ridiculous, and their response on their site was even worse.

Your next post down talked about an event that is indicative of what I'm talking about. I guess it was naive of me to think that posting what I posted would make a difference, but I thought it was worth a shot.

At the moment, no, I don't think we are any worse than Star Wars or Star Trek people. But I also know that we could get that way quickly. And regardless of that, shouldn't be at least aspire to be better? Shouldn't we try to be the one fan base that gets it right? Unlike most fan bases, the people we admire appear to want to make themselves accesible to us. They want to have a relationship with their fans. Lucas doesn't do the Con circuit... neither does Mark Hamill (Harrison Ford is a bit large for that). But we see Joss and Nathan and the rest of the crew making the circuit, taking time out of their schedules to be accesible for us. And every story that you hear of a Browncoat meeting a BDH is a positive one. Don't we owe that back to Joss and the gang? Don't we owe them to at least try to conduct ourselves in a proper way when representing ourselves as their fans?

Sure, there will always be idiots who do stupid things, and no amount of pleading is going to help. As you pointed out, my example was a bit ridiculous, because someone who is going to jump to violence probably isn't going heed an internet post. But someone who is thinking about sending a flaming e-mail might. Someone who is thinking about seeing a theatre manager about helping promote the movie might.

I wasn't intending to lay blame on anyone, or to tell people how to act. I just wanted to remind people that when they act under the banner of a Browncoat, they, in the eyes of most of the people they are talking to, will likely be representing all browncoats. And there's a responsibility that comes with that.

I keep talking about picking battles. Jumping to a website because of a bad review and flaming away is not a battle worth fighting. Banding together to get Fox to release the DVD set? Worth Fighting. Doing the same to (hopefully) get a soundtrack for the series? Worth Fighting.

The problem is, if EVERY battle is fought, then people start to ignore you. I used sports before, and I'll use it again. I see average basketball coaches complain to the refs about every call, and it does no good. Then I see a great coach only argue when he feels like he's got cause, and the refs tend to listen to what he's saying. You have to pick what's worth it and what's not, and you have to make sure that you're right before you jump on someone.

Certainly some people are doing that... they're considering their actions. But cleary some aren't. Those that are should be commended. Those that aren't don't necessarily need to be chastised or booted out of camp. But they need to be reminded of their responsibility to the image of the Browncoat community.

The Sanchez situation is small potatoes, no question. It sucks that the people who won the contest had to wait. And it sucks that they also had to have people saying bad things about them. But in the end, it was a contest run by a small site... not the end of the world.

What happens if Jay Leno or David Letterman make a joke about Firefly/Serenity/Joss/Browncoats? Are we going to jump in the both barelles blazing and boycott or stage a protest? Or are we going to level-headely contact their people and let them know of some of the good works of the Browncoats, or of some of the awards won by Joss and crew? The second one probably wouldn't get a mention on the show, but it would let them know that we take it to heart when called out. The first one probably would get a mention on the show, and it would likely result in a negative mention on the show.

I've worked a lot of years in marketing and PR and I've seen how easily things can spiral out of control. And I just don't want to see that happen to our community.

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