GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

It CAN'T be true!!! *major movie spoilers*

POSTED BY: ENGINEANGEL
UPDATED: Saturday, March 25, 2006 20:58
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Monday, October 3, 2005 1:51 AM

ENGINEANGEL


DON'T READ ANY FURTHER IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE MOVIE OR YOU DON'T LIKE SPOILERS!!!!!!


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am just crushed ... i understand why book died. his last words got mal to go to miranda and do what he needed to do to get there, when he otherwise wouldn't have even tried nor would he have gone to such great lengths as to desecrate his ship to get there. This doesn't mean that I am a fan of his dying, but I do understand where it's coming from. Also, if one person didn't die the movie wouldn't have been as spectacular.

BUT Wash had absolutly no possible reason to die, except if Joss was setting up for the next movie where it's all about Zoe questioning what she does and stuff. but i don't like that explanation!!! My father is a writer and although he praises Joss for being brave enough to kill Wash off (it is hard to hurt or kill one of the characters you have created), he agrees that there was no reason to do it.

I think it may relate kind of to what Tara's death did to Willow (in Buffy). It pushed her over the edge. But there were other ways to push Willow over the edge without killing a much beloved character. Just like that is true, so is this. Wash could have been wounded in the arm by that thing or anything else cound have happened.

For all those Browncoats out there who are saying, "Yeah it was a punch to the stomach but i'm getting over it and everyone else should too," you don't seem to realize just how much this death has hurt us. At least to me, and many other browncoats, the family that i watch on the tv or movie screen has come to be part of my family in a way. If you're mother or brother or wacky uncle (as may well be the case) suddenly dies, you're not just going to get over it. This was a major part of my world and Zoe's world.

Now get me straight, this is not a hate-filled rant. This is not directed at Joss (how can i hate Joss when he's brought me Buffy and Angel and Firefly and Serenity). If I am Forced to look at this situation logically, this was his show and it was his right to do what he wants to do to the characters. That doesn't mean that i like logic or am going to abide by it. LOGIC SUCKS!!!!

I went to see this movie 2 times this weekend and both times i cried ... a lot. the second time i went i came armed with tissues. The first time i watched this movie on friday, the shock was just way too much for me. I mean he was impaled. THe second time it wasn't a shock but it was still horrible. And right in the middle of a sentence!

so browncoats, i need your help. I'm trying to figure out a way that Wash can come back. the obvious ones are cloning or an android but i would rather not see that. The best one that I've come up with at this time is that Wash somehow (and i don't know how-that would be up to Joss) comes back as a ghost that only River can see. The problem is i want the real wash back, but he was impaled. How are we going to gety around that?

well, please travelers. help me find a way to bring wash back!!!


River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Monday, October 3, 2005 2:49 AM

EMBERS


I'm surprised that you, and particularly your Father, can't see how

Select to view spoiler:


Wash's death altered the emotional atmosphere of the last 20 minutes of the movie.
Book's death we saw coming, we weren't even surprised, it was a 'movie death'.

But when Wash died all of a sudden all bets were off, anyone could be killed off.

When Zoe or Kaylee or Simon were injured we were on the edge of our seats feeling that Joss could take another of our heroes away from us. Even River could have died ... because this was suddenly a VERY dangerous world and getting in the way of brutal forces like the Alliance and Reavers is seriously scary stuff.



This is no longer a safe TV episode where everything will be alright in the end,
clearly everything will NOT be alright ever again.

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Monday, October 3, 2005 12:06 PM

JASONZZZ


I guess Spoiler is as what Spoiler's are...


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Monday, October 3, 2005 1:44 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
I'm surprised that you, and particularly your Father, can't see how Wash's death altered the emotional atmosphere of the last 20 minutes of the movie.

embers, you're right on the mark- I hate, Hate, HATE that Wash was killed...but I support Joss' decision to make it so. It wasn't a 'fun' decision for him to make, I'm sure, but a bold and realistic one.
When deaths occurred in Matrix 3, for example, I ended up resenting the writers for pulling a needless 'Shakespear' on us ( "Hey, what do we do now?" " I know, let's KILL everyone, that will make it an important statement!!" " Yeah, worked for Shakespear!"); however, in Serenity, the need for loss was there. The story was too important to sugar-coat it.
( Just hope Wash didn't leave his Katra lying around in someone...)

No Genesis Chrisisall

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Monday, October 3, 2005 8:47 PM

FALLENANGEL


I loved the movie! I mean, I laughed and cried, really cried when WASH WAS KILLED!!! If I could change anything, ANYTHING about that movie it would be not getting Wash killed. The whole movie was FANTASTIC and AWESOME but it just twisted my gut that Wash was killed. I cried!I literily bawled. It just broke my heart. If there's gonna be a sequel( there better be.) I don't care how they do it, they better bring Wash back or some violence is going to ensue!

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
" I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Hoban 'Wash' Washburn.

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Monday, October 3, 2005 9:09 PM

ZMANN966


Okay...

Maybe the Wash's actor (Alan Tudyk) either wanted out of the series or had other things to do (doubt it). But the easiest way to have a show lose a character is kill them off.. (I screamed when it happend, had popcorn chucked at my head...)
You'd have to ask Mr. Tudyk or Mr. Whedon...

Awesome movie though...
I laughed, I cried... I wish Wash hadn't of died... woe is me.

"Describe Interesting..."
"Oh God, Oh God, We're all gonna die?"

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Monday, October 3, 2005 9:46 PM

BARCLAY


I'm glad Wash died.

Let that sink in.

I loved the character of Wash. I loved Firefly. I am no less obsessed or caring for any part of the Verse than anybody else.

But how many times have you seen a movie, everyone gets away scot free, or one character has a tragic death, like Book's, full of obvious meaning and purpose, and think "Yeah, like that's real."

Of course, we go to the movies to pretend we're somewhere else. We, generally, don't want movies that remind us of the perils of living, cause we paid good money to escape that. Forget that these are the best films.

As noted above, Wash's death creates suspense throughout the entire film beyond that point. Is anybody safe? Nope. If there's a sequel, is anybody safe? Nope.

But that's not even the best part to me. This was Wash's only way to die a hero. He just performed a miraculous landing, saving the ship and crew (mostly). If he dies in battle, it looks like ineptitude. But dying in the manner he did, it's the best death the character of Wash could hope for.

And thank you Joss for that. Because, while truely shocking in my first viewing, the second time, all of this becomes clearer. With one Reaver Telephone Pole through the chest, the entire world of Serenity is flipped upside down. Brilliant.

Now Joss, please please please please please keep him dead. I loved Wash, too, but bringing him back, in any non-flashback, non-River's crazy mind way, just cheapens this brilliant fitting death.

"You are on the Global Frequency."
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Monday, October 3, 2005 9:49 PM

JONSP


Wash's death also made what they were trying to do BIGGER. It ramped the emotional power of the climax through the roof. This was important. This was major. It was more dangerous than anything they had done before, and it might just demand their lives. Wash's death upped the stakes of the climax and, as has been pointed out, upped the tension by shattering our security, our movie-sense that the crew might take a beating but in the end they'd come out of it okay. All of a sudden, anyone could die. There was actually a point when I seriously started to wonder if any of them were going to make it out alive. That rarely happens to me in movies, and I liked it. It was some brilliant writing on Joss's part. So Wash's death was horrible, and more than slightly devastating, but I think it was necessary and fitting.

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Monday, October 3, 2005 10:12 PM

RAKARR


Wash's death was a total shock and one of the big twist in the movie wich has effected the future of Firefly forever.

Also his death really changed the tone of the movie. It was like they were safe and out of harms way that one moment, but then BLAM! Reavers get Wash. After that moment I really was worried about Zoe when she got slashed in the back. Then really worried about Kaylee when she got hit by those 3 darts. Then worried about Simon when he got shot. Honestly I was most worried about Kaylee cuz I thought she actually did die at first from those darts. Really wasn't sure till that scene was actually over. So the death of Wash really set the tone for that scene. That scene wouldn't of been nearly as good imo if Wash or one of the crew didn't die.

Also imo Wash dieing and how he died how it was so unexpected is just an example of wonderful writing imo. And it will really give a new twist for the future of Firefly probably getting a new crew member unlike the other characters and unlike Wash. Just gives room for a new personality to be aboard Serenity, or even give River a new role to play. Really I'm wondering where they will go with River in the future?

Anyways I praise Joss for killing Wash, even though it's sad to see him go. I can fully understand some ones feelings about his death if Wash is their fav. Hell if he was my fav I'd maybe be saying the movie sucks and I'd cancle my order of the Firefly DVD set. Well maybe.... I can kinda compare this with Mortal Kombat. In the game Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance my fav character, Liu Kang is killed off. I pretty much threw my fav game franchise of all time that I've been playing since I was 5 or 6 years old just cuz my fav char was dead. Even started to hate my fav game franchise. So I can understand how some feel about Wash.

"I am a leaf in the wind."
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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:56 AM

MADRIK


Sitting on the edge of my seat, leaned over, not blinking, I was in awe the entire film. When Wash was impailed, I jumped. I leaned back... I took a total blow.

See, I've always put myself into Firefly and if I would be a character, I would be him. His personality is a lot like me and I'm a pilot myself (and a damn good one ;) ). I love women that can kick ass, a different race and marriage! I'm just as laid back and sarcastic as he is.

And seeing him actually die, I took a gulp and was overcome with worry for the rest of the crew. Just as mentioned above, I was thinking the crew to be more vulnerable.

The point is, I agree with Wash's death. These people are amazing but they're not invincible. The Alliance took casualties, the Reavers did, the common people did and the crew of Firefly did. It's war - there are always casualties. The earlier explainations were a lot better but just think of it that way. I really really don't like the android or the clone idea.. that is just a desperate attempt to bring back Wash from the dead which is just corny and unrealistic.

Since everyone loves Wash, it was the most impacting emotionally. It's something worse taking in.

PS I love the part when Kayle gets an enormous will to fight after Simon telling her that he wants to shag her. "I'm gonna LIVE"

--Madrik


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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 1:16 AM

REALLYKAYLEE


i was in the middle of "that's my bab-" when it happened. i cried and hated the movie for the next 12 hrs. but then i talked to jacqui. she explained it ALL! and for that she gets to go to the 'special' heaven.
find her!

shakespeare: more words than God.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 3:31 AM

SKYSCRAPER


Well… part of the reason we love these characters are because they are written to be humans. They aren’t super, although most have some skill in fighting, or at least lots of firearms… and things that go boom. What we really love about these characters are that they’re human and a family. And sadly, families have losses. Wash still went down a hero. He finished doing the impossible. Not everyone walks out of the impossible. For that, there is 95% of dumb Hollywood action flicks. We love these characters, because we believe they may or may not get out of the impossible. People die for no reason. Some trip on shoelace. Most die by no fault of their own. Whedon made these characters human, which is one of the many reasons we love them. Wash was my favorite character and I’ll miss him.

But on the sneak preview I watched, and the 2 times this weekend, each time people gasped out when Wash and Book died. Each time I saw it, it hurt. And, even though I accidentally ran into a spoiler that mentioned Wash would die months ago (still upset about reading that spoiler) it still shocked it me. I don’t see those reactions in Star Wars and most other movies. I daresay, Titanic is the only one that comes the closest. There may be more, but the point is, most movies don’t make you believe in a character.

As for Book’s death, while I didn’t like seeing him go, I liked that he died not telling his secret or past. To me… that’s realistic. People die with secrets all the time.

… But seldom do secret die with them.

The family we’ve watch will continue to grow and adapt like most every family does. It might be a rough road at first, but it’s the only one to take to a smoother paved road. If you want a movie where the people do the impossible and everyone keeps walking away happy, or die and return to life, go watch the Star Trek. Joss isn’t going to insult us with that. Neither is he afraid to muck up a system, even his own system.




--------------------------------

Once, just once, I want things to go according to
the gorram plan!

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:10 AM

DERANGEDMILK


Quote:

Originally posted by reallykaylee:
i was in the middle of "that's my bab-" when it happened. i cried and hated the movie for the next 12 hrs.



You and me both sister! But now after talking to some people and thinking it over, I'm just more anxious to get a sequel so I can see what happens next and in what fashion he returns(hopefully the hawian shirt fassion). The more I think about it the better the movie gets. Can't wait to see it again. It still sucks and we'll all miss him but hey, we're still flying. That's Enough.

-e

P.S.It'd be cool if Haken created a subpage(like the blue sun room) that is a mermorial to Wash and Book.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:13 AM

CYBERSNARK


Based on the final scene, I'd say River's gonna be the new pilot (assuming she stays as lucid as she appears). Of course, she is psychic, and Wash spent a lot of time in that cockpit. If there's likely to be a ghost, that's where she'd find it.

I can already see the scene in the sequel:

Wash is giving River flying lessons --warning her about the wobbly starbord engine (don't trust it in heavy manoeuvres, just shift thrust to port-side). River is talking back (a two-way conversation).

Camera swings away, as Mal enters, leading a client and avowing the professional skills of his expert crew. River laughs at one of Wash's jokes, the camera swings back to see River chattering and carrying on with empty air.

The client looks confused, Mal goes "huh" and quickly turns the very wealthy and respectable client around and leads him away from the crazy girl.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:17 AM

CELTICGIRL264


My friends and I counted down the days and could not wait till the movie came out. That night we went to the theater and watched the movie without blinking. We were extremely sadden by the death of Wash. He was by far all our favorite character. One of us wrote this about Wash.
“This is the crappy town where you’re a hero. We love everything about your from your plastic dinosaurs to your leaf-like piloting. Yes, we even love those Hawaiian shirts and that mustache. You and Zoë were perfect for each other. I remember once in flight school, you were laconic…. You’re the shiniest pilot in all the ‘verse.”
We loved the movie and thought it was wonderfully crafted and loved the wit and seriousness of the movie. I hope it turned many people who were not fans of the show into fans. There were a couple of things that made me upset and that were the setup of the world and characters. In the movie you did not realize that Inara was a companion and that Inara and Mal were not in a relationship before this movie. I guess to some it wasn’t important, but me being a fan of the show, it was important to me. I hope that Joss will make a sequel because it would make up for killing Wash and Book. I am one of biggest fan of Joss and watch all his shows and know all the things that he likes and that is what my last statement pertains too. My last statement is that Joss likes sex robots a little too much and he likes to kill people when they are the happiest.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:55 AM

ZEEK


I figured it out. Wash won't come back as a ghost or anything. He'll come back as Mr. Universe's sex bot.

River has a subconscious power to transfer other people's consciousness. She didn't realize she did it but she sent Wash's consciousness into the sex bot. Wash is lost and confused in his new body but will slowly emerg and have to find his way back to Serenity. It will be a wacky tale of adventure. I see Washbot and Serenity barely missing each other 3 or 4 times. Then in the end Wash gets back and Zoe has already moved on and we're sad.


Luckily I've never been able to predict what Joss will do next. So, don't get too worried about that storyline for Serenity 2.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 5:07 AM

TRANSYU


There was another post that I had read on another site that tried to come up with some logical reason for Wash NOT to be dead. Now it may be a bit of a stretch for some, but it gave me enough hope that I plan to see the movie another 10 times. Was too heartbroken to go back after seeing the 'SCENE' initially.

Basically, after he was impaled, everyone left the ship in a hurry (fleeing Reavers and the like). Now, Reavers would not mess with Wash as he's already 'dead'. So he stays pinned there for a bit. Who happens upon the scene? Why the Alliance, hot on the Reavers (and the crew's) tail! We allready know from the 'Message' episode that there is some pretty radical medical technology available (organ replacement/reconstruction and the like), plus the human brain retains a charge for a good long while after the body is declared to be dead. They could have rescued his body during this time and evaced him out for interogation or something (not sure why myself, but I'm sure Joss could come up with a compelling reason). They may have informed the Operative, or they may not. After he was discovered to not be the Alliance's man anymore, that tidbit of information could/would have been kept from him.

I HOPE that we'll see Wash back in some form or another. I also trust Mr. Whedon to not change the significance of his death or make it seem cheesy. He may or may not be the same man we remember, but I hope he turns up in Episode 2: The Search for Wash.

Keep on flyin'

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 5:08 AM

KIZYR


Quote:

Originally posted by Barclay:
But how many times have you seen a movie, everyone gets away scot free, or one character has a tragic death, like Book's, full of obvious meaning and purpose, and think "Yeah, like that's real."



Exactly!

That's why Wash's death was so significant. Whedon is brilliant at creating realistic, deep, human characters. Book's death was dramatic, but... well, drama isn't always realistic. We had gradual time to prepare.

Wash died in the heat of battle. His death was sudden, harsh, and real. That's why fans are reacting to it this way. You get no time to prepare for his death, you get no time afterwards to console yourself, unless you want to join him in the afterlife.

One person in the theater I was in just yelled out "no!" when that happened. It's all you can do when someone dies so... realistically.

Keep in mind... Book is my favourite character, always has been, always will be. But I managed to handle his death much better simply because I could see it within a fictitious environment. It was harder to do that with Wash. That, and, by that point, I was scared for the rest of the crew. I was on edge the most when Kaylee got those two darts to the neck, because I knew I couldn't handle another death at that point. And I'm usually fine with movie deaths!

Wash's death was shocking... but I was surprised at my own reaction to it. I mean, the only movies I've gotten choked up at in the past have been based on history (Schindler's List and Amistad, to be specific). This was the first time a completely fictional character's passing got to me this way.

And that's why I've only seen the movie once. It'll be hard to handle it a second time 'til I'm ready. KF

~Kaiser Farooque

ZOE: Preacher, don’t the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?
BOOK: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps...

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 5:15 AM

CEDRIC


I figure anyone who has gotten to this point in the thread is not scared of spoilers, so I'm not going to do anything funky to this post.

I hurt when Wash died also, but I want to tell this story to put it in perspective.

A friend of mine recently lost her husband to cancer. When she talks about looking forward to seeing the movie, it makes her sad because her husband won't be able to go. He was really looking forward to it.

He was a lot like Wash. He was witty and sarcastic, more a lover than a fighter, and a genius when it came to piloting words across a page. The big difference is that he was a real, flesh-and-blood human being, not an illusion created by writers, actors, and camera operators.

I'll miss Wash, but I mourn my friend.

Let's keep this plot twist in perspective, folks . . .

"You can't take my show from me,
Because I've got the DVD."
www.BedlamBards.com
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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:12 AM

DONCOAT


Well said, Cedric.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:06 AM

CLICHEMOMMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Based on the final scene, I'd say River's gonna be the new pilot (assuming she stays as lucid as she appears). Of course, she is psychic, and Wash spent a lot of time in that cockpit. If there's likely to be a ghost, that's where she'd find it.

I can already see the scene in the sequel:

Wash is giving River flying lessons --warning her about the wobbly starbord engine (don't trust it in heavy manoeuvres, just shift thrust to port-side). River is talking back (a two-way conversation).

Camera swings away, as Mal enters, leading a client and avowing the professional skills of his expert crew. River laughs at one of Wash's jokes, the camera swings back to see River chattering and carrying on with empty air.

The client looks confused, Mal goes "huh" and quickly turns the very wealthy and respectable client around and leads him away from the crazy girl.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.



I like your scenerio of how Wash (Alan Tudyk) might come back.

I too was stunned when Wash died, but thankfully, it happened suddenly. What got to me even more was the funeral scene. Seeing Wash's happy face on that tombstone and then watching Zoe walk between the rest of the crew - tears, many tears! Am I the only one that felt that way? I just wasn't prepared for that.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:11 AM

JONQUILL


"When I go to war, you'll know the difference."

I'm sure that's a misquote, but it'll do.

Joss was asked why the movie wasn't called Firefly. He responded saying that Serenity wasn't Firefly. It was a totally different animal, and should be regarded as such. Anyone who's seen the flick can attest to that.

Wash's death wasn't simply a device to ramp up tension in the third act. True enough, after seeing him staked by the Reavers, those darts, bullets, and blades aren't props in scenes anymore, but real dangers to the characters we've come to love.

It left us all wondering if the crew would even see the light of day again. That alone drops a dollop of squirming tension into our bellies. But I don't think the "leaf on the wind" came to rest for that alone.

It's been said that someone needed to die to make this real. To make this mission more important. But why it's more important, what Wash died for, that's been flirted around.

Firefly was about survival. A crew on the raggedy edge trying to squeek by. Everything the crew does throughout the show is led, almost entirely, if not primarily, by the guiding principle of get to tomorrow. Mal holds to nothing but his crew. No principal, no government, no association, other that those who keep him and his boat in the sky.

Serenity is not about survival. It is a different beast.

With gun drawn, Captain Tight Pants, informs his crew that any of them stand in his way, and they will be shot down. His family is forfeit to his principle, for the first time we've seen. His claim that the run at Miranda is made to get some info to "steer clear" of this is probably just a cover. He's seen what the Alliance has done, and he intends to make a stand, and nothing will stop him. He goes to the point of desecrating Serenity herself, for this quest.

Firefly was about ducking out of the way. Serenity was about sticking your face into your enemy's gun sight and sticking your tongue out at him. Serenity was about making a change, because it needed to change, and that, invariably is more risky.

Mal may have set the course, but the crew knew this just as well. Jayne didn't leave despite his gripes, neither did Zoe, or Simon, or Wash. They accepted that mission and all of it's risks, giving up on just flying another day. They went to war.

Wash didn't die because we needed to be afraid. He didn't die because people do die in real life. He died because the crew of Serenity went to war, and that means sacrifice. At the risk of employing a tired cliche that the Bush Administration enjoys butchering: "Freedom isn't free." And the crew of Serenity chose to pay the price. Wash died a death of belief, as a hero.

Wash, you made me laugh, right from "This land." Thanks.

I hope you enjoyed my overstating of the obvious.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:26 AM

RIJPE


I mourn Wash. I respect Joss' decision to kill him.

I'm glad that Wash died in a mission to create a better 'verse (or at least stick it to the Alliance). It was easier than parting with him because of a robbery job that went south.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 8:29 AM

ROBBS


My wife (more out of loyalty than as a fan, although I'm still working on her!) accompanied me to see the movie and kept asking me what I thought afterwards. But I was so stunned by the deaths (we actually started to suspect it was all in Willow's brain, especially when she had to go back in the other room alone) that I couldn't really answer. I mean it was witty and dark, but I was too busy being stunned to fully appreciate it. The characters & show remind me of a roleplaying game and it was like a couple of your friends died in the game, but here they don't get to play later. Then, like everyone else, I started trying to figure out how to get the others back in. We also immediately thought about the possibility of cloning, the ghost angle (can you imagine Book 'advising' Jayne?) or somesuch. But I think the best non(well, mostly non. Maybe kinda-sorta)-cheesy method is this:

Remember that the movie is some significant amount of time later than the series. Stuff has happened and members have split. Also, the captain's relationship with the doctor has gotten worse (not that it was ever good, but still!). So what are the odds that the sequel (there had better be a sequel! If we all see it five times and bring dates(?) would that bring in enough?) will take place in between the epic movie storyline and the semi-episodic TV storylines? It allows the deaths to be vast and tragic, yet allows us another glimpse or two at the whole cast. It's also sneaky and very comicbooky (both of which are Whedonish/Whedonesque/Whedonsomething). Can't wait for the follow-up DVD special-release with 90 minutes of previously unseen footage!

"Mercy is the mark of a great man. Guess I'm just a good man. Well, I'm all right."

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 8:30 AM

DIGIFICWRITER


Quote:

Originally posted by engineangel:

I think it may relate kind of to what Tara's death did to Willow (in Buffy). It pushed her over the edge. But there were other ways to push Willow over the edge without killing a much beloved character.



Although this is way off-topic, I wanted to say that I really disagree with the assessment that there were other ways to drive Willow over the edge than killing off Tara. If you truly understand Willow's character and the way she viewed not only herself, but the world around her, you'd see that the death of somebody incredibly close to Willow was the only way to push her into doing what she does at the end of Season 6. It necessarily wouldn't have had to have been Tara, but outside of her, the only other character who was as close to Willow was Xander.

To pull this back on topic, while it sucks that both Book and Wash are dead, I'm of the opinion that they were not only both necessary deaths, but both serve a higher purpose than simply shaking up the status quo for the fans and for the characters. Book's death serves to make Mal's grudge against the Alliance intimately personal, and also drives him to do what he does at the end of the film after discovering the secret of Miranda. Wash's death, while not serving as grandiose a purpose, still serves a purpose because it not only sets up the idea that nobody is safe, it gives Zoe even more motivation to kick some Reaver ass. I've heard a lot of people talking about how they didn't feel that Zoe (or anybody else) grieves for either Book or Wash, but in the case of Zoe and Wash, that's completely false. Immediately after Wash is impaled, Zoe's about to abandon her 'ice-woman' demeanor and cry, but Mal calls her back to the mission at hand; since she can't express her grief through tears, Zoe channels it into anger and aggression, but without becoming reckless. She uses the battle with the Reavers as an immediate outlet for her grief, and later is able to grieve in a more traditional manner (although she'll never let anybody else realize it); she also shows that she's grieving through her dialogue with Mal in Serenity's cockpit when she says 'She's torn up, but she'll fly true'. She's talking about herself as much as she is Serenity, and is letting Mal know that he doesn't have to worry about her (which he is).

Take my love
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You can't take the sky from me
Take me out to the black
Tell 'em I ain't comin' back
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me
There's no place I can be
Since I've found Serenity
But you can't take the sky from me

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 8:44 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Rijpe:
I mourn Wash. I respect Joss' decision to kill him.

I'm glad that Wash died in a mission to create a better 'verse (or at least stick it to the Alliance). It was easier than parting with him because of a robbery job that went south.

That's the best thing I've heard about Wash's death so far.

Thank you.

I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/Nora_Leverson
Live in Minnesota? Join the Group! Yahoo Group, that is...
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 8:55 AM

NINGJING


Quote:

Originally posted by Zmann966:
Maybe the Wash's actor (Alan Tudyk) either wanted out of the series or had other things to do (doubt it).

Alan Tudyk is currently starring in Spamalot on Broadway. I'm sure he'd be available if a sequel were filmed.

Couldn't we just do a Dallas shower scene, pretend it was all a dream and have a do-over? It sucked on Dallas, but I'd accept anything to get Wash back.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:14 AM

MALICIOUS


What gets me most is that I can no longer enjoy episodes of Firefly, knowing what I know. Every ep is now shadowed with the thought, "Wash dies in the movie......Oh, God, WASH DIES IN THE MOVIE."



Mal-licious

I'm going to add cursing and the hurling about of things to my repertoire.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:17 AM

EDISON


Here are some Wash wallpapers to help you through. The first is an idea from my daughter. She was so wrecked after the movie that she decided to put off a second viewing of Serenity until the second weekend. Later she hunted leaves around campus to find "the perfect one" and paired it with Sean Phillips' Serenity cover on her wall. She said it made her feel better.
http://webpages.charter.net/matsuweb/xfer/leaf_on_the_wind.htm

Variations on a theme:
http://webpages.charter.net/matsuweb/xfer/memorium.htm

If Serenity continues, I think we'll see him again in some form or another.

Edison

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:30 AM

PINGJING


Quote:

Originally posted by DigificWriter:
Quote:

Originally posted by engineangel:
Wash's death ... still serves a purpose because it not only sets up the idea that nobody is safe, it gives Zoe even more motivation to kick some Reaver ass. I've heard a lot of people talking about how they didn't feel that Zoe (or anybody else) grieves for either Book or Wash, but in the case of Zoe and Wash, that's completely false. Immediately after Wash is impaled, Zoe's about to abandon her 'ice-woman' demeanor and cry, but Mal calls her back to the mission at hand; since she can't express her grief through tears, Zoe channels it into anger and aggression, but without becoming reckless. She uses the battle with the Reavers as an immediate outlet for her grief, and later is able to grieve in a more traditional manner (although she'll never let anybody else realize it); she also shows that she's grieving through her dialogue with Mal in Serenity's cockpit when she says 'She's torn up, but she'll fly true'. She's talking about herself as much as she is Serenity, and is letting Mal know that he doesn't have to worry about her (which he is).



Before the movie came out, I posted here to say that I had been spoiled by the New York Times - they let slip in an interview with Joss that "a few characters" were going to die. Once I had heard that, I couldn't stand to wait a week. I needed to know who it would be, and so I went online and intentionally spoiled myself further. I'm not sure that was a good idea. On the one hand, I had time to prepare for their deaths. If I hadn't prepared, I think Wash's death would have put such a damper on the movie that I wouldn't be able to remember enjoying the rest of it. On the other hand, being spoiled takes away the purpose everyone else has been claiming - that you fear for everyone else's lives that much more. I knew at that point that everyone else was going to be ok. (Thank God - Joss don't you dare touch another one of them!)

But I don't think that's the only reason that Wash died. Like DigificWriter said, it lets Zoe kick some Reaver ass. And it gives the Reaver-ass-kicking so much more meaning. (I have to disagree with her not being reckless though. I think she was incredibly reckless, stepping past the crates they had set up as a barrier and standing near the entrance so she can tear the Reavers to bits. Jayne called her on that - he kept asking her to get out of the way, because she was blocking his target.)
Zoe gets an entire emotional arc that she wouldn't have gotten had Wash not died. She handled her grief so eloquently, through denial and rage, and *that* is what made the movie real for me. Not that anyone can die, but the way the others deal with it.

Julia

p.s. Someone mentioned on this thread or another that Kaylee and River are breaking down during the funeral scene. I was so distracted by the Harry Potter tombstones that I missed that. I need to see this movie again, if just to catch their emotional reaction.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:38 AM

MADRIK


As Wash's brother, the Bible says I'm inherited to be Zoe's new husband.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:44 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


I want Wash back, but I don't want him to be resurrected, or be a ghost. I feel like that’s a disservice to Wash. Yeah, you died, but that doesn’t matter. I can just write a nice little plot device and now you’re back. Your death didn’t make any difference at all.

I hate things like that.

-

On the other hand someone said to me in the theater, “This is a different continuity, if the series comes back they’ll still be alive.” As far as I know there are no plans to bring the series back (even if this movie, and the one after it, and the one after that all do incredibly well.)

So two questions:
1 Is anyone talking about reviving Firefly?
2 If they are is it going to follow the movies, or ignore them?

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:57 AM

BENNYO


wash is dead... to bring him back would be stupid... all im concerned about who is going to do the comic relief

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:12 AM

CHRISISALL


The Firefly episodes give us what we don't have in real life; the ability to relive moments from before Wash was killed.
Take those episodes and rejoice that he IS alive in them! He can be alive whenever you want, that way.
There are those lost to me in the real world I just WISH I could do that with.

Wash and Book will always be with us.

Shepherd Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:34 AM

RIJPE


Quote:

Originally posted by Edison:
Here are some Wash wallpapers to help you through. The first is an idea from my daughter. She was so wrecked after the movie that she decided to put off a second viewing of Serenity until the second weekend....
Edison



I had a similar reaction, though I was afraid I was letting my fellow Browncoats down.

Hats off to Joss and Alan for creating a character that we care so much about. He will live on in our hearts and those of his family onboard Serenity.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:41 AM

CLEANER


Quote:

Originally posted by Zmann966:
Okay...

Maybe the Wash's actor (Alan Tudyk) either wanted out of the series or had other things to do (doubt it).




I also can't imagine that Joss would kill off a character without the actor actually asking for it or consenting to it.

But if your going to be stuck with a movie format from this point on rather than the realitively spacious time allowed by a series, there is a real advantage to getting the number of main characters down from 9 to 7.

"If wishes were horses we'd all be eating steak!!!"

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:56 AM

KOZURE


Sometimes people die for no reason, without fanfare, glory, recognition, or even a witty or pithy line in passing.

It's a testament to Whedon's stylized realism that his death was so shocking and affecting.

Also, as Zoe points out earlier in the film:

"Heroes are people who get other people killed."

(fantastic line - works on a lot of levels)

Kozure the Kamikaze Highlander

Proud Citizen of Canada-That-Was

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 11:27 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
The Firefly episodes give us what we don't have in real life; the ability to relive moments from before Wash was killed.
Take those episodes and rejoice that he IS alive in them! He can be alive whenever you want, that way.
There are those lost to me in the real world I just WISH I could do that with.

Wash and Book will always be with us.

Shepherd Chrisisall


I was going to say that, but I couldn't find words that made sense. You did a great job of doing just that.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 11:52 AM

EDISON


Quote:

Originally posted by Cleaner:
Quote:

Originally posted by Zmann966:
Okay...

Maybe the Wash's actor (Alan Tudyk) either wanted out of the series or had other things to do (doubt it).




I also can't imagine that Joss would kill off a character without the actor actually asking for it or consenting to it.



In the Serenity official movie magazine, Tudyk says he recommended the idea to Whedon during the series. Tudyk also said he liked the way it happened without any "carry on without me" lingering. And Glass says Whedon maintains the possibility of a full cast in future Serenity efforts. Dead may be dead, but, hey, much of "Out of Gas" occurs in the past.

Edison

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 11:56 AM

STAKETHELURK


Quote:

Here are some Wash wallpapers to help you through. The first is an idea from my daughter. She was so wrecked after the movie that she decided to put off a second viewing of Serenity until the second weekend....


Quote:

I had a similar reaction, though I was afraid I was letting my fellow Browncoats down.


Waiting til the second weekend isn’t letting anybody down. The second weekend is probably even more important than the first, because it decides whether this film will hang around and grow or fade away. So, no worries. Just be sure you’re there come the second weekend. Same goes for everybody else.

As for bringing characters back, I doubt Joss will try to “resurrect” them. However, in the Buffyverse, death was rarely the end for beloved characters--and not just because you could bring them back as vampires or manifestations of the First or whatnot. Whedon’s used dreams, hallucinations, visions, and surrealism to let us see lost beloved characters yet again, and he is always effective at it. So we might see those things employed in a sequel. Plus, Serenity has something the Buffyverse doesn’t: holograms.

Picture something like this: it’s movie two and Mal has gotten involved in something very dangerous. Then he discovers Shepherd Book was a party to it (maybe it was the thing that drove Book to take the cloth) and that Book has left a series of holographic recordings for Mal to help him out. We see another side of Book, we get to see Book giving (admittedly one-way) counsel to Mal, etc. My example is kinda trite, but Whedon could use something like that to keep Book and Wash a part of the story. Whether Joss will do that in a sequel is another matter--but first we have to get a sequel, so spread the word and turn up at the second weekend.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:13 PM

MER


I'm getting through...it'll take me a while to deal like with Tara's death in Buffy. Of course what would make it better is if Zoe's pregnant.

I think that Wash's death wasn't necessary. Usually there's a reason. Like the Haven townspeople death. It will stay like this until it's properly resolved.
It would be interesting to see how Zoe is in the next movie. It seems like her emotion is unresolved.

I can't but help think of her crying in her room at night behind everybody's back. River having Wash talk to her is a pretty good idea. Mal would come in while River's in midsentence, just to make her even more off.

When I saw Wash's tombstone I cried like a baby. I too thought his body could be missing or something. It's possible, but I dunno. They kind of cut out that important part out. Or hell, a mention of it.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 1:03 PM

JENNYZ


Quote:

Originally posted by reallykaylee:
i was in the middle of "that's my bab-" when it happened. i cried and hated the movie for the next 12 hrs. but then i talked to jacqui. she explained it ALL! and for that she gets to go to the 'special' heaven.
find her!




I had the exact same reaction. I'm still kinda peeved about it, but slowly coming around.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 1:14 PM

SIRARIS


I really want to hear what Joss and Alan say about this. Theres a quote on someones blog, about how Alan was all for Wash dying the way he did (don't remember the link for the blog). There's so many reasons why he died, or why he shouldn't have, but I know that Joss did it for a reason, and I also know the reason was not to hurt us as fans.

I always complain that in every movie, everyone gets away scott free without dying... well, I regret it now.

But I'll stick to what I've said since it happened... the great thing about creative license, is that you have it. Joss could make an entire season of Firefly that happens before Wash ever dies. It's all up to him, and he has my upmost trust and respect.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 1:27 PM

KAYLEEWANNABEE


Quote:

Originally posted by Jonquill:
Wash didn't die because we needed to be afraid. He didn't die because people do die in real life. He died because the crew of Serenity went to war, and that means sacrifice. At the risk of employing a tired cliche that the Bush Administration enjoys butchering: "Freedom isn't free." And the crew of Serenity chose to pay the price. Wash died a death of belief, as a hero.

Wash, you made me laugh, right from "This land." Thanks.

I hope you enjoyed my overstating of the obvious.



Wow, thanks so much for that. You made me cry. In a good way. :)

But it wasn't overstating the obvious...lots of people still don't get it, conditioned as they are by lowest-common-denominator pre-packaged, 100% polymerized junk TV and movies.

I love Joss because he makes me think...and then he slaps me (figuratively) upside my noggin and makes me feel.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 2:56 PM

MRSUNIVERSE


Right, there's no structure to this, I'm just thinking out loud (well, you know what I mean)...
Generally, when you up the ante, someone dies, especially when it's a TV series to a movie. So one of the nine was going to go; I was prepared for that. But, for some reason, I never thought in a million years that it would be Wash. But I should have known.
This is gonna work as an indirect proof (any geometry students out there?). I'm just assessing who was likeliest to die. First, there's Mal. He was pretty much safe from the beginning (doesn't stop him from getting pretty beat up, though). You don't kill your main character, not if you want a sequel, not after the fans have worked so hard to bring him to the big screen. Then there's Zoe. Zoe is Mal's right hand woman and she adds girl-power. But also, she provides an important link to the past; if Mal were the only veteran of the war, then flashbacks would seem too introspective and distant. No, Zoe had to live. Jayne's main purpose is, obviously, comic relief, but also a much more important one: he is Mal's foil. Their constant struggle of power is essential drama, plus Jayne's thick-headed love of violence juxtaposes Mal's inner moral conflict. So Jayne wasn't going out. Inara's easy: don't kill your hero's love interest, not in the first movie, especially after they've just reunited. And if you do, make her sacrifice herself for him (but that's impossible to make non-cheestastic). Shepard died, and others have said why better than I can, so I'll leave it there. Kaylee, like Jayne, is comic relief, plus she's Zoe's foil. Zoe is always emotionally collected, while Kaylee's not so subtle. Actually, next to Wash (ohgodImisshimsomuch), I thought Kaylee the most expendable, as River is also a contrast to Zoe. If Simon had died when he was shot (and I thought at the time he was going to), it would have been redundant. His dramatic death would've echoed Book's far too much. Plus, I think it's important that River's slaughter of the Reevers was defensive, rather than an act of revenge. Speaking of whom, I also thought River was doomed, that she'd go out saving the 'verse. When she throws Simon's bag and gets dragged back by the Reevers, I thought that was the last we'd see of her. Guess not.
And so that leaves Wash. What I loved most about him was his relationship with Zoe: it's so rare you see a happy, working marriage on TV or in Hollywood, as this usually eliminates most drama (we saw Wash and Zoe's drama in "War Stories"). And here's the kicker, that negates everything I've just said. This death had to be totally random. It's like you guys have said, that's real. In real wars, you can't choose who's most expendable, you can't choose your last words, you can't choose how you go. It's random, and useless, and pointless, and unfair, and real. I'm also incredibly torn about whether I want Joss to bring him back. On the one hand, I find myself actually grieving for this fictional man. I feel like someone I know has died (and I have known that feeling; my stepfather died in Iraq a year ago. He hadn't been my stepfather long, but still...); if that's happened to anyone, then you understand how lost and numb it feels. And now I can't watch his scenes in Firefly without tearing up. I'd give anything to have him back (well, not anything, not in reality, but the sentiment's there). Vice versa, bringing Wash back defeats the purpose of his death: that there was no purpose. In real life, you can't snap your fingers and awake the dead. You can't have your psychic friend talk to them for you (or maybe you can, depending on what you believe). It's the same with the death in book five of Harry Potter (is this the wrong crowd to mention that in?). So there's the conudrum.
I have but one regret, one thing I wish Joss had done differently. Wash's death is just so...cruel. Not to him; thank god, he didn't see it coming and probably didn't feel much pain. No, I mean to us. I, at least, was pretty emotionally vulnerable at the time. I'd just seen Serenity take a major whupping, which felt sort of like one's home being demolished; I didn't know she'd fly again. Plus, I'm proud (if subconsciously) of Wash getting them all through that hell safely. And, then, to kill him in the middle of a joke. I thought what he was saying was pretty funny. After all, they've just crash landed through a battle between the Alliance (bad) and Reevers (worse). To go back to that whole zen metaphor thing is funny. And I laughed. But it caught in my throat. I wouldn't say Wash's death ruined the movie for me, because it certainly didn't, but I must say I was still crying at that priceless last line. I'm going to see Serenity again, when I'm ready. Sorry this reached essayic proportions. Also sorry for the comma-splices and liberal use of semi-colons.

I am a leaf on the wind. Watch me soar.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 3:01 PM

WICKEDLESTER



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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:40 PM

MADDIECOBB


I too was devastated by Wash's death. And I think the HP reference is very fitting you have grown so attached to a fictional person that it hurts still to think they are gone probably forever.

I can't help but wonder though...Death as depressing as it is open's doors for life (especially in TV shows and movies). So when I think back to the Heart of Gold episode Zoe and Wash banter about having baby she says:

“And I'm not so afraid of losing something that I won't try havin' it.”

Hearing this today I tried my hardest to tear up quietly for my Husband who hasn’t yet seen the movie.
At the movie I thought about this when I realized that yes Wash was dead and Zoe (Oh my GOD in a DRESS!!!) would have to live with out him than I thought about what she said after that:

“You and I would make one beautiful baby.”

So (through my logic) Wash’s Death opens up room for a new life aboard Serenity.


This actually has played out in my head. Imagine everyone waiting on Zoe and not letting her get into trouble. Anyway I think I would be more okay with Wash’s death were there a chance for a Hoban Jr.

This is all just me hopin’ though.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:53 PM

ENGINEANGEL


hey travelers, this is a long post because i haven't been able to get on for a while, so bear with me.

Quote:


Cybersnark wrote:
Based on the final scene, I'd say River's gonna be the new pilot (assuming she stays as lucid as she appears). Of course, she is psychic, and Wash spent a lot of time in that cockpit. If there's likely to be a ghost, that's where she'd find it.
I can already see the scene in the sequel:

Wash is giving River flying lessons --warning her about the wobbly starbord engine (don't trust it in heavy manoeuvres, just shift thrust to port-side). River is talking back (a two-way conversation).

Camera swings away, as Mal enters, leading a client and avowing the professional skills of his expert crew. River laughs at one of Wash's jokes, the camera swings back to see River chattering and carrying on with empty air.

The client looks confused, Mal goes "huh" and quickly turns the very wealthy and respectable client around and leads him away from the crazy girl.



I love it!!!!! That would be soooooooo cool! Thanks for giving me hope!!!

Quote:


written by TRANSYU
There was another post that I had read on another site that tried to come up with some logical reason for Wash NOT to be dead. Now it may be a bit of a stretch for some, but it gave me enough hope that I plan to see the movie another 10 times. Was too heartbroken to go back after seeing the 'SCENE' initially.

Basically, after he was impaled, everyone left the ship in a hurry (fleeing Reavers and the like). Now, Reavers would not mess with Wash as he's already 'dead'. So he stays pinned there for a bit. Who happens upon the scene? Why the Alliance, hot on the Reavers (and the crew's) tail! We allready know from the 'Message' episode that there is some pretty radical medical technology available (organ replacement/reconstruction and the like), plus the human brain retains a charge for a good long while after the body is declared to be dead. They could have rescued his body during this time and evaced him out for interogation or something (not sure why myself, but I'm sure Joss could come up with a compelling reason). They may have informed the Operative, or they may not. After he was discovered to not be the Alliance's man anymore, that tidbit of information could/would have been kept from him. I HOPE that we'll see Wash back in some form or another. I also trust Mr. Whedon to not change the significance of his death or make it seem cheesy. He may or may not be the same man we remember, but I hope he turns up in Episode 2: The Search for Wash.



ok. I also have to admit. that is a cool concept too. I don't get it all (just a bit confused) but the mechanical organs from "the message" being put into Wash as a prototype or something is a great idea!!

Quote:


written by STAKETHELURK
Picture something like this: it’s movie two and Mal has gotten involved in something very dangerous. Then he discovers Shepherd Book was a party to it (maybe it was the thing that drove Book to take the cloth) and that Book has left a series of holographic recordings for Mal to help him out. We see another side of Book, we get to see Book giving (admittedly one-way) counsel to Mal, etc. My example is kinda trite, but Whedon could use something like that to keep Book and Wash a part of the story. Whether Joss will do that in a sequel is another matter--but first we have to get a sequel, so spread the word and turn up at the second weekend.


now that's a good idea!!!!

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 5:57 PM

JSTURGIS


Wash's death was a kick in the pants and unnecessary, as engineangel said. I'm a guy - an OLDER guy -- and when he was killed I was shocked at first then just in disbelief. I refuse to believe it was Joss Whedon's choice to do this ... to me, it smacks of interference from other money types involved.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:03 PM

ENGINEANGEL


way to go jsturgis!!!!!!!!!!

I really like the idea of Zoe having a baby. If we’re not going to bring Wash back that’s the next best thing.

hey, i've been hearing that the whole cast is going to come back for the sequel and trequel. Can anyone confirm that?



River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

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