GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Concerning Kaylee in Serenity *SPOILERS*

POSTED BY: RAKARR
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40
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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:41 AM

RAKARR


When they are trying to hold off the Reavers and Kaylee gets hit by 3 darts, what did those darts do? At first I was really worried they killed her. Then saw her up and alive after taht scene so I was thinking maybe they were ment to paralize her so the Reavers could eat her alive? What yall think?

"I am a leaf in the wind."
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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:46 AM

SHINY


It's never mentioned in the shooting script what the green poison/drug in the darts was, but I think your theory about paralysis is a good one.

---

Serenity is coming. 9/30/05.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:48 AM

THELURKER


Whatever it was, Simon had something in his bag to counter its effects, so he knew what it was and didn't seem too worried about it. Of course, he quickly had other problems.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:49 AM

DRROB


Reasons to paralyze: Rape, save to eat later, won't move around as much when you skin her to make a shiny Kaylee hat?

Really I think that's reading way too much into reaver motives.



"Guess you broke into the wrong rec room."

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:52 AM

MICHAELANGELO


Kaylee does say "I'm starting to lose some feeling here.." I think you're dead on that the Reavers want a live but helpless person to eat...
I guess she gets the calaphar shot that Simon was meaning to give her.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 11:08 AM

DUG


Quote:

Originally posted by DrRob:
Really I think that's reading way too much into reaver motives.



I tend to think the opposite after thinking about their origin. The Mirandans lost all motivation and died because they couldn't work up the motivation to even eat. The recording said that in a percentage the opposite happened, and then talked about rage. We tend to think of the Reavers solely from that rage idea...but think of what that recording meant.

I think that not only do they have insanely uncontrollable rage, but also are off the scale on motivation. Essentially hard-wired OCD. The Mirandans stopped doing anything; the Reavers can't ever stop. Think of the "decorations" on their ships; the incredibly creative weapons and even the obsessive self mutilations.

I think they are fully aware of the normal humans they used to be. I think they hate themselves for what they are just a tiny bit less than they hate everything else. I think they literally can never stop acting on those feelings either. And that's a lot scarier than just "insane rage." This fits with their ability to work together, pilot ships and even plan out raids on settlements small enough to be taken easily. And I swear it scares me even more every time I think it through.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 11:23 AM

KOZURE


Quote:

Originally posted by dug:
Quote:

Originally posted by DrRob:
Really I think that's reading way too much into reaver motives.



I tend to think the opposite after thinking about their origin. The Mirandans lost all motivation and died because they couldn't work up the motivation to even eat. The recording said that in a percentage the opposite happened, and then talked about rage. We tend to think of the Reavers solely from that rage idea...but think of what that recording meant.

I think that not only do they have insanely uncontrollable rage, but also are off the scale on motivation. Essentially hard-wired OCD. The Mirandans stopped doing anything; the Reavers can't ever stop. Think of the "decorations" on their ships; the incredibly creative weapons and even the obsessive self mutilations.

I think they are fully aware of the normal humans they used to be. I think they hate themselves for what they are just a tiny bit less than they hate everything else. I think they literally can never stop acting on those feelings either. And that's a lot scarier than just "insane rage." This fits with their ability to work together, pilot ships and even plan out raids on settlements small enough to be taken easily. And I swear it scares me even more every time I think it through.



Just think humans with all sense of compassion or self-restraint switched off.

"One tenth of one percent" of 30 million = 30,000 Reavers = 30,000 effectively psychopathic human beings.

Think serial killers/sociopaths with no one to hold them back.



Kozure the Kamikaze Highlander

Proud Citizen of Canada-That-Was

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:04 PM

DRROB


Points taken.

Now here's the thing... few of your average sociopaths (ie Richard Ramirez, Jeff Dahmer, Ted Bundy) have the where withall to commit higher acts of reason.. like building a paralyzing dart gun from scratch. Even you 'organized' serial killer like Bundy, really didn't have it 'together' at the point of the kill... he never lured anyone into his car, he's get them as far as his car with a simple ruse, then knock them on the head with a crowbar.

Let's extend that to the reavers. Sure they can drive cars (spaceships) and make thier way to the office (say a sleepy town with a fat bank ripe with fresh meat) but once they are in the act... the reavers show little if any self control, otherwise WHY keep attacking when you are being slaughtered?

They don't 'give up', the drug made them permanently crazy in some dark sinister way... but they are still a society of SOME sort or they'd cannibalize/kill each other until none were left. Even the harshest prison for nutcases has a 'society.' Sociopaths live outside of society (above it in their own heads) and despite what movies tell us, they don't really get along with each other.

I's a neat explanation of who they are...but not why they act how they act. In the original show they 'may or may not attack'there was some suggestion of 'alien tech/influence' ala Ghosts of Mars (which is what they remind me of).

Whatever they are... the 'dart gun' was just another way to really tug your heart strings... we didn't just SHOOT Kaylee... they stuck darts in her NECK, so they could keep her for later... EEK! Poor Kaylee!

It's a brilliant dramatic device, that shows more forethought into the writers, rather than what/who the reavers are and how they should act.

Nearly killing Kaylee off made me realize I liked her character more than I thought.




"Guess you broke into the wrong rec room."

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:04 PM

SICKDUDE


Quote:

Originally posted by dug:
I tend to think the opposite after thinking about their origin. The Mirandans lost all motivation and died because they couldn't work up the motivation to even eat. The recording said that in a percentage the opposite happened, and then talked about rage. We tend to think of the Reavers solely from that rage idea...but think of what that recording meant.

I think that not only do they have insanely uncontrollable rage, but also are off the scale on motivation. Essentially hard-wired OCD. The Mirandans stopped doing anything; the Reavers can't ever stop. Think of the "decorations" on their ships; the incredibly creative weapons and even the obsessive self mutilations.

I think they are fully aware of the normal humans they used to be. I think they hate themselves for what they are just a tiny bit less than they hate everything else. I think they literally can never stop acting on those feelings either. And that's a lot scarier than just "insane rage." This fits with their ability to work together, pilot ships and even plan out raids on settlements small enough to be taken easily. And I swear it scares me even more every time I think it through.



Wow, I really like that theory. It also fits with River's line, "They never lie down."

"Don't say 'ka' until you've tried it." Daniel Jackson

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:30 PM

REALLYKAYLEE


they do all their *work* while the folks are alive. they wouldn't kill if at all possible- that would take away some of their joy. ewwww . . .

shakespeare: more words than God.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:40 PM

RIJPE


On a more cheerful note...

I feel like Kaylee really got the shaft in the movie. I understand that we didn't have time to get to know all of the characters in the movie, but I felt like we got real slices of who they were. With Kaylee, I felt like she was reduced to a sex-fanatic. I thought it was funny, and the audience thought it was funny, but I think it's a shame that there wasn't more.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:56 PM

REALLYKAYLEE


dittos. major. that was probably the thing i was MOST disappointed with. at least *she* didn't die.

shakespeare: more words than God.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:58 PM

RAKARR


Quote:

Originally posted by DrRob:
Reasons to paralyze: Rape, save to eat later, won't move around as much when you skin her to make a shiny Kaylee hat?

Really I think that's reading way too much into reaver motives.



"Guess you broke into the wrong rec room."



I don't see how it's "reading way too mucn into reaver motives". The basic motives of the Reavers is to rape and eat their victims perferably alive.

Anyways who's to say that Reavers don't eat other Reavers? I mean if they got no one else there like if they run out of "food" then I would think they would feast on the most weak Reaver there on the ship.

Well I don't want to try to tell what I think of how the Reavers behave on a regulare basis. I think they are too complex for any of us to even try. I mean they are suppose to be in uncontrollable rage basically, yet manage to strategize attacks in some way. Pehaps Reavers aren't man that are just crazy now. Perhaps they have evolved from being just crazy uncontrollable men in rage to being an society. Well like I said they are too complex to really say what they are exactly like and how they live.

I wonder though, why would they let some one live, but make them watch some one get raped and/or eaten like in that one episode of Firefly? Just to convert them? Perhaps they do that when they get full? Surely that shows that Reavers have some control atleast nowadays if they are able to spare a life and not even take him as a meal for later.

Also I've wondered... Do Reavers have babys? Do they reproduce?

"I am a leaf in the wind."
Big Damn Fansite - Where the Browncoats gather.
http://www.freewebs.com/bigdamnfansite

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 1:18 PM

RIJPE


More importantly, does being exposed to PAX and then having a child cause your child to be affected? Does it just have a general bad effect on the baby (like a woman who does drugs while pregnant) or does it have a PAX-like effect on the baby (they are either too lazy to eat or are violent).

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 2:02 PM

BELASERA


Are there even Reaver women? There must be, according to thteir creation story, but I don't recall seeing any. Yes, I was looking, it's a question that has been bothering me since Firefly.

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:05 PM

HAZELRAH


Concerning Kaylee...... I agree that she really didnt have a "moment" in this movie that explored her characters charm-- more along the lines of engine repair in a crisis.
Some funny line,yes,and expression of her hungering loins.But she ,being the big bouncy heart of the ship, seemed to be on the sidelines, pining.For a fan of the show, it came across to me as her typical place in a average episode.Sure she cant always have a moment or main play in the storyline, but this being the movie, I thought she would have at least one "scene" to call her own.Not counting the "screw this , I wanna live" for Simon sex moment(which I thought was funny ,but awkward timing for a joke,I mean c'mon, there are a army of Reavers outside,how could you think of anything else?But Kaylees not a warrior, so she goes with what she knows, hehe).I think what the movie needed was Kaylee having a conversation with another character,perhaps Jayne, while she performs maintenance or repairs on the engine.A moment where she,performs some kind of in a pinch repair service cause of her engine savy.And maybe she touches her engine tenderly.This conversation could have been about Simon, and his leaving, or maybe something about Inara,since she was close with Inara.
And it seems to me that her developing relationship with Simon had taken a step or two backwards by the beginning of the movie.But I thought it was such a sweet and telling moment, that even after Simon gets shot, his first thought is of Kaylee, and helping her. Not River.Not himself.Awwwwwwwwwww

I'll be yours, until Aurora shows her Aura, that rosy fingered nimbus from above. Let me be, your Incubus of love

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:31 PM

REGINAROADIE


I strongly diasgree. I think that with the short amount of time given to each character, Joss did give them their moments to shine and to show their personalities and how they related to each other on the ship. The Jayne/Kaylee scene where he's putting the Reaver debris into the pit and she's picking through random parts (Did anyone notice that the piece that she raised her eyebrows at was the same part that was desperately needed to fix the ship in OUT OF GAS) showed her love of all things mechanics and how she sometimes served as the heart and the conscience of the ship ("One by one, Cap'ns gonna drive us off the ship. Just like Simon and River. Just like Inara." and the vid that Kaylee shoots of Inara packing things up shows her sensitivity to the crew members and her respect and adoration for Inara). This also comes across in her tearful speech to Simon (with the comment on the Capison 38 engines really showing that she's a motorhead). Admittedly, I think the scenes with Simon admitting his feelings for Kaylee and them getting it on in the end with River watching were probably more for the closure of the fans and for all Simon/Kaylee shippers (myself included), but for the unitiated, the scenes do drive home the point of FIREFLY in that it's a search for meaning in a meaningless world. Because of that, I do think that "To Hell with this. I wanna live." is probably the most important line of the flick, as well as the funniest.

So no, I don't think Kaylee as a character got the shaft, nor anyone else for that matter. And if we do end up with sequels, maybe we'll see more of Kaylee.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
XANDER: (baby-talk) Who's a little fear demon?
C'mon, who's a lit-tle fear demon?
GILES: Don't taunt the fear demon.
XANDER: Why? Can he hurt me?
GILES: No, it's just… tacky.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:46 PM

RAKARR


OH! I forgot about that detail that River pokes her head out watching Simon and Kaylee get it on. That was funny.

Anyways I think the only character that really got the shaft was Book. I mean he had 2 scenes. First one he just talks with Mal. The other scene he dies... Book got the shaft unless you call his "hero" moment being that he sheltered Mal and the crew...

What is the "hero" moment for each character? Cause I recall that they said each character would have their own special hero like moment in the movie.

Wash's was his great flying and bringing a fleet of Reavers to the Alliance to distract them.

Mal's was his fight against the Operative actually beating him.

River's was fighting all those Reavers herself.

What about the others though? Maybe Janyne and Zoe shared one fighting off the Reavers? What about Simon and Kaylee though?

"I am a leaf in the wind."
Big Damn Fansite - Where the Browncoats gather.
http://www.freewebs.com/bigdamnfansite

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:56 PM

REGINAROADIE


Simon's hero moment was in the opening prologue when he detonated that sonic bomb and breaking River out. Along with him opening the doors of the cargo bay for the "barn swallow" as well as setting off the extinguishers, and attending the wounded crew during the final Reaver battle. Actually, one of my favorite bit's of character development was that Simon was no longer the punching bag he was on the show. That is someone pushed him, he pushed back.

Inara's hero moment was earlier, when she said "And that's not incense." and we figure out that she was lighting a fuse for a flash bomb.

Kaylee's was probably during the first Reaver attack. More implied than actual. Was probably cut for time, but will be included in the DVD. But there was also the moment where she threw Mal the wrench so that he could get to River when she locked herself in the bridge.

And Jayne and Zoe's was probably during the final Reaver battle as well. Can't really define a "heroic" moment for those two since gunplay is so common with them.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
XANDER: (baby-talk) Who's a little fear demon?
C'mon, who's a lit-tle fear demon?
GILES: Don't taunt the fear demon.
XANDER: Why? Can he hurt me?
GILES: No, it's just… tacky.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:00 PM

MADRIK


When the series ended, we all wondered if Kaylee and Simon would ever even kiss... but dayum!

Also, that was a concusion launcher type thing... set to detonate at a certain altitude and a certain radius. Simon definatly did his homework.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:07 PM

RAKARR


OH YEAH! Can't believe I forgot about Simon saving River and Inara lighting that fuse. Damn... I need to see the movie again BADLY! So I can remember every thing.... hopefully. It's kinda nice to forget stuff that happens in a movie though so when you watch it again it's like its new.... kind of....

"I am a leaf in the wind."
Big Damn Fansite - Where the Browncoats gather.
http://www.freewebs.com/bigdamnfansite

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 11:24 PM

KIZYR


Quote:

Originally posted by reginaroadie:
Simon's hero moment was in the opening prologue when he detonated that sonic bomb and breaking River out. Along with him opening the doors of the cargo bay for the "barn swallow" as well as setting off the extinguishers, and attending the wounded crew during the final Reaver battle. Actually, one of my favorite bit's of character development was that Simon was no longer the punching bag he was on the show. That is someone pushed him, he pushed back.



Oh yeah... I liked seeing Simon finally kick ass in the movie. You saw that the number-one thing that triggered him going all at it was anything endangering River.

I mean, you saw him with his shirt off. He's about as unconvincing of being a 'nerd' stereotype as Alfonso Rivera was in Fresh Prince. KF

~Kaiser Farooque

ZOE: Preacher, don’t the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?
BOOK: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps...

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Wednesday, October 5, 2005 6:23 AM

RIJPE


Quote:

Originally posted by reginaroadie:
I strongly diasgree. I think that with the short amount of time given to each character, Joss did give them their moments to shine and to show their personalities and how they related to each other on the ship. The Jayne/Kaylee scene where he's putting the Reaver debris into the pit and she's picking through random parts (Did anyone notice that the piece that she raised her eyebrows at was the same part that was desperately needed to fix the ship in OUT OF GAS) showed her love of all things mechanics and how she sometimes served as the heart and the conscience of the ship ("One by one, Cap'ns gonna drive us off the ship. Just like Simon and River. Just like Inara." and the vid that Kaylee shoots of Inara packing things up shows her sensitivity to the crew members and her respect and adoration for Inara). This also comes across in her tearful speech to Simon (with the comment on the Capison 38 engines really showing that she's a motorhead). Admittedly, I think the scenes with Simon admitting his feelings for Kaylee and them getting it on in the end with River watching were probably more for the closure of the fans and for all Simon/Kaylee shippers (myself included), but for the unitiated, the scenes do drive home the point of FIREFLY in that it's a search for meaning in a meaningless world. Because of that, I do think that "To Hell with this. I wanna live." is probably the most important line of the flick, as well as the funniest.

So no, I don't think Kaylee as a character got the shaft, nor anyone else for that matter. And if we do end up with sequels, maybe we'll see more of Kaylee.



You're right -- the moments you mentioned did show Kaylee's real spirit. I had forgotten about them (obviously I need to see the movie a few more times) ;-). I think that they were lost on most people who saw the movie for the first time. They will just remember the randy Kaylee lines. But one of the great things about this movie is that we will notice more and more on repeated viewings.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 AM

KAYLEEFRYE


In response to something said earlier, yes, there are female reavers. We never see any, persay (not that you could probably tell), but in the stage directions in the shooting script for Serenity, there is one that mentions a female reaver attacking a man.

I also feel like some of Kaylee's lines are flat, shallow. I don't really feel like she got an especially short end of the stick, but I just thought that some of her lines weren't quite her.

For example, when she goes rushing by Jayne, who was impaled in the leg, and goes to Simon and asks if he's alright. It just didn't seem to me to be something that she would do, because she loves everyone, especially the captain. It just didn't seem quite right. It was played for the laugh, and not really for her character. I do like most of everything else she had, especially that confrontation with Mal in the bar, but there are just a few things that seem to present her as flat.

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