GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

A New Point Of View

POSTED BY: DJL
UPDATED: Friday, February 10, 2006 09:29
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6928
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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 3:14 PM

DJL


I've been hearing about Firefly since 2003, when the DVD box set hit UK shores, to generally positive reviews (in some cases, generally ecstatic). I was not, however, going to spend 35 sterling on a boxset that looked unnervingly like the Wild Wild West DVD release. But I kept hearing about it, the word was always good, and a couple of years down the line the film was about to come out, the boxset was half price, and I wanted to see the backstory first. Be in no doubt, I was converted.
Now I know that a lot of fellow converts have taken to multi-buying boxsets, and copies of the film, in the hope of creating an economic interest on the part of the studio(s)to produce a second film or series.
But an idea I just want to put out there, is why not just leave it alone? Thirteen perfect TV episodes (frankly, I'm not a fan of The Message)and a feature film that should send George Lucas into another twenty years of self-imposed exile in Marin County - that's not a bad tally.
Why resurrect near perfection? Did the fans who tried to keep Star Trek alive in the 70s really have Scott Bakula in "Enterprise" in mind when they launched their campaign? Did the Star Wars fans looking forward to the new films (me included)envisage the horror of "The Phantom Menace"?
Can you really hope that one day the series will become such a success that we'll be bombarded with "Rivers' Children" spin-off novelizations, a TV franchise that "jumped the shark" three years before the network cancelled it yet again, and a film series that reached its nadir with the equivalent of "Firefly 10:Nemesis"?
Or would it be better to have what we have now, a cult phenomenon, unsullied by overexposure, unspoiled by the cult of success? Something you can watch in twenty years' time (dust off your old DVDs)and view it romantically, without bad films or episodes to ruin the memory (kind of like a first girlfriend/boyfriend).
Shoot this idea down if you like, I just enjoy hearing opposing points of view.


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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 3:43 PM

MURKYMERC


In a word, blasphamy

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 3:48 PM

20THCENTFOXHATER


You have a valid point, but I think I can definitely speak for EVERYONE here (on this issue at least) that Firefly was cut WAY too short and deserves at least one full season in addition or one or two movies written by Joss Whedon. Not some person who does not know the material.

But, at least we call relax and say that it was at least top-notch for the time it was around.

"I aim to misbehave."
"Can't do something smart, do something right".

HOMER: "Oh Lisa, you and your stories; Bart is a vampire, beer kills brain cells. Now lets go back to that... building thingy... where our beds and T.V.... is".

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 3:52 PM

NYWOE


I think that was well said. (Wasn't that well said, Zoe?)

For me, when Firefly was cancelled, I was DESPARATE for more from this 'verse. I became obsessed with the need. Fortunately for me, they announced the movie and after a LONG wait, we finally got to see it. I won't say that the movie was perfect or everything I wanted it to be, but it finally filled that horrible empty space. It gave me resolution.

In the meantime, I have met many fabulous Browncoats, virtually and IRL. I've shindigged, I've seen the BDH's in person, I've had a lot of fun campaigning, converting, and buying Serenity swag where-ever it is to be found. I'm satisfied.

(Not to say that I'm done with the fandom. I continue to chat with fellow Browncoats on a daily basis, plan shindigs, spread the word about the show, etc.)

And I look forward to whatever Joss has coming up next!

P.S.-- I think in many ways it's harder for people who saw the movie *first.* For them, Firefly is not a resolution. It just lights that fire of discontent.

_____________________________________
If you're an Arizonan and a Browncoat, come join us:

www.azbrowncoats.com
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/AZ_Browncoats/

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 4:01 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Certainly a valid opinion.
If Buffy had stopped at 14 eps... or Angel... or *insert your favorite multi season freakishly good tv show* :here:

There's another thread floating around on this board at this same time about darkest fears and "what it all means," - making sense out of this being alive thing - "you have to try" is what I took away from that thread, and what feels right for an answer to your question.

And you can watch those magical 14 eps anytime, even after the suckie ones come out.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net
75 songs retired and 75 new ones added as of Feb 4, 2006

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 4:15 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Did the fans who tried to keep Star Trek alive in the 70s really have Scott Bakula in "Enterprise" in mind when they launched their campaign?

Did they have The Wrath of Kahn, The Voyage Home, The Undiscovered Country, and First Contact, in mind?

I'll take my 40%, most of the remaining 60% wasn't all that bad either.

Quote:

Or would it be better to have what we have now, a cult phenomenon, unsullied by overexposure, unspoiled by the cult of success? Something you can watch in twenty years' time (dust off your old DVDs)and view it romantically, without bad films or episodes to ruin the memory (kind of like a first girlfriend/boyfriend).

And why couldn't I do that if I did have, "Firefly X: Mal's got a clone and the Reavers want peace"? Am I so weak willed as to be unable to remember the good without the bad?

If I read a bad fan-fiction will it spoil everything? Why not? It's the same characters probably just as seriously.

Quote:

Shoot this idea down if you like, I just enjoy hearing opposing points of view.

I wouldn't say I shot it down, but I hope the idea, though not you, is in some form of pain. Perhaps like a mosquito.

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 4:46 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Nywoe:

P.S.-- I think in many ways it's harder for people who saw the movie *first.* For them, Firefly is not a resolution. It just lights that fire of discontent.



I wouldn't necessarily say that. I saw Serenity first. I recall seeing River; and I went like: "Tyen shiao-duh! She's so awesome! And jun duh shr tyen-tsai, to boot." I became trapped, right there.

And then, when I became hopelessly addicted to Serenity, in the course of say, oh, a day or so, I learned I could yet experience this felicity 14 more times! :)

Then the rollercoaster-O-bliss ran out of gas. :( So, now I see other shows, and say: Je shr shuh muh lan dong shi!? Yep, it's all fei-oo.

Serenity Ma-shong!


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 6:00 PM

BLUE786


Very valid points there. There are many great shows out there that ran "too long," and kind of ruined the expereince. "The Simpsons" comes to mind.

Also, there is something to be said for ending on a good note. "Seinfeld" closed after something like 10 seasons, while it was still tops in the ratings. Had the cast and crew wanted to continue, I'm sure NBC would have wanted to keep the show going as long as ratings were good, no matter if the storylines got tired or what not.

However, in Firefly's case, I think its different. Firefly didn't end on a high note, or a low note. It never got a chance to get started. The original "Star Trek" lasted for 3 seasons. Firefly only got about 1/2 a season. I'm confident that the cast and crew had many more good episodes in them before the show would start to get old.

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 7:39 PM

NUCLEARDAY


I see what you mean. If this is all we can get, well... it's not much. But it's enough. Plus you know, it's cooler to be a browncoat than a trekkie, right? :P We get the whole 'underground' cred, and the cult status.

Still, I can't help but want to see the show given a second chance. Or really any continuation at all.

I remember hearing about the show when it was first coming out, and I never saw it going for years and years... but it definately deserves more than it got.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2006 8:54 AM

OLDFOGEY


Quote:

Originally posted by Blue786:
I'm confident that the cast and crew had many
more good episodes in them before the show would
start to get old.




Many, many, many, many, many, many, many...



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Wednesday, February 8, 2006 9:32 AM

NOSADSEVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by DJL:
[...]
Now I know that a lot of fellow converts have taken to multi-buying boxsets, and copies of the film, in the hope of creating an economic interest on the part of the studio(s)to produce a second film or series.
[...]

I'd like to think that most people 'multi-buying' are doing so more to share the Firefly/Serenity experience, than to just throw a few more dollars (or pounds, or what have you) into the pot. I know I feel compelled to share this "near perfection" with those who I think will value it (and some I don't) because it means something to me, and frankly, it's just plain worth sharing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2006 9:33 AM

JAYRO


Quote:

Originally posted by V8LTWT:
Hate to say this but DJL does have a point. Sometimes the very best shows only have a very short run. Whilst not in the same league as Firefly but still with a "cult" status & following think about "Fawlty Towers" - they only ever made 12 episodes & I'd bet that you'd only ever say a few words from any episode to set someone off !!



I see what you're getting at.

But Fawlty Towers was a set of self-contained episodes. It didn't have a frustratingly unfinished story arc, multiple characters with as yet unexplored backgrounds, and an entirely new 'verse to explore. And don't forget, rumours still abound of a Fawlty Towers reunion.

'Firefly' and 'Serenity' are like windows. The view is always great, but sometimes you just want to see something new.

-------------------

"We're gonna explode? I don't wanna explode!"

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Wednesday, February 8, 2006 12:51 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by V8LTWT:
I had another think after posting & perhaps I should have pinched the quote from "Blade Runner" - the one about the brightest stars burning the shortest - can't remember the whole of it,


Something like:

The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long; and you have burned so very, very brightly.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2006 6:31 PM

STILLFREE


When Star Trek was cancelled the fans had a rabid response much like that of the Browncoats. A few great movies were made and a few decades later, The Next Generation went on the air. And it was good. Very good. So I have faith that as long as the show is being made by those who really care about it, it will be good. And if it's not, I'll be dissappointed but no more than I am now.

I'm fairly certain it's never going to reach Star Trek proportions. It's too good. Most people don't like good entertainment. They like feeling their brains atrophy from disuse, it makes them forget they're alive.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2006 6:41 PM

AMYLISAI


you made me laugh with your Chinese-filled post. Thanks!

Amylisai

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Thursday, February 9, 2006 9:15 AM

MILFORD


You do have a point, however you're failing to consider the Joss Whedon variable. He's what makes this show grand, and I have a hard time believing that he would let it drift off into foolishness. To answer your question, NO, thirteen episodes isn't near enough. But more episodes doesn't mean that there will eventually be a Serentiy sequel where they have to go back in time and save the only two humpback whales in existence.

Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes

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Thursday, February 9, 2006 9:26 AM

IMALEAF


I see your point but I am a Browncoat at heart, I cannot give up. I just can't.

~~We gotta go to the crappy town where I'm a hero~~

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Thursday, February 9, 2006 11:19 AM

JEEJARNG


Statistically, most shows die off, or begin a slow decline into a painful writer's hell by 3 seasons. While I like seeing characters evolve over time, I do prefer the format that many UK shows follow. They are signed up for and produced based on a specific amount of shows/years. When it's over, it's over, spinoffs not withstanding. I always find this a better way, no early cancelations,no dissapointments.

Had Firefly had a shot, it may have ended up disasterous, (seriously unlikely) but sadly we won't know. We can always hope for more feature films.

Well they tell you... never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious.

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Thursday, February 9, 2006 12:31 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


All we really know about what there wasn't is that Joss had planned and started to set up story arcs that wouldn't come into serious play until the second season. That and there was going to be water.

-

I think those who are saying that it is better off this way are being more than somewhat heartless. The exact same argument could be used to argue that there if a kid died and you could revive, you're standing right there defibrillator in hand, him you shouldn't. Some day his life will go down the drain, his innocence will be destroyed, why subject him and those who care about him to that?

Who here thinks that is right? I don't.

So here's the next logical question, if it isn't right in a larger case (a human being's life and death) why should it be true on a smaller scale (the life and death of a tv show)?

If an argument doesn't hold water it doesn't hold water, doesn't matter what you are applying it to.

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Friday, February 10, 2006 3:43 AM

CASSIUS


Quote:

Originally posted by JeeJarng:
Statistically, most shows die off, or begin a slow decline into a painful writer's hell by 3 seasons. While I like seeing characters evolve over time, I do prefer the format that many UK shows follow. They are signed up for and produced based on a specific amount of shows/years. When it's over, it's over, spinoffs not withstanding. I always find this a better way, no early cancelations,no dissapointments.



Also, can I add on the subject of British TV shows, our series' tend only to be 6 episodes long, instead of alot of US series which have over 20.
This means that British shows are alot less likely to be cancelled prematurely (because they're so short to start with), so the various plots through the series tend to be tied-up so there's no loose ends.

Having short series is good for TV execs in 2 ways:

1. If the series is a flop, it doesn't matter, because you won't know it's a flop until at least the 3rd or 4th episode. By then the run is almost at an end anyway.

2. If the series is a success and people love it, they'll be so hungry for more than they would be if there was 25 episodes. It's known as the 'Short and sweet' theory.

ps. Also, with 6 episodes, the writers and cast know the'll get a full run, so there's not as much pressure on them as there is for American writers and cast.

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Friday, February 10, 2006 4:45 AM

MRBEN


The question is, are we willing to take the risk that the 'more' is rubbish?

Personally, I would rather have 24 episodes more of which only 2 are good, than not to have those at all. It _is_ worth fighting for.

mrben

"Carpe Aptenodytes"
http://www.jedimoose.org

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Friday, February 10, 2006 5:18 AM

MERCHANTMARINE1


In my opinion, Firefly has one advantage, the cast is young, energetic and talented. Their contributions to their character make firefly. Yes star trek had 79 espisodes, ended in 1968, after the creation of the SciFi mania conventions the talk and movement began. Thus came to life the first intro "Star Trek the Motion Picture". We saw as fans the return of the original cast but lets be honest you would not see the original cast on weekly series, movies yes, tv no, was not the same, age has alot to do with it, charisma, the bond was not there. The introduction and popularity at the movies did spur the creative juices of Gene Roddenbury to creat The Next Generation with new ideas, but still carried the same from his sixties series, and of course DS9, and Voyager and Enterprise all have the same backdrop (high tech computers, weapons and intelligent rocket scientists)

Firefly brings common people together without all the lost high tech gagets, yes its a western, but, look at our history, where have we progressed, no fancy lasers, still using the same black powder concept, technology changes but mankind does not. If you look at the reevers, well, they are a dark side of man preying on man and other innocent helpless victims.. gosh.. just like the criminal element within our society. If ff does not return to TV or Cinema at least the fan base will live on.

Merchantmarine1

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Friday, February 10, 2006 5:18 AM

MIRTHMASTER


i understand your points, and as a fan of storytelling across many media and styles, i agree that often the business end of television and movie-making compells a continuation where the creative drive has stalled, but the 'verse is simply too rich to be completed in what we now have. i, like many others, have taken great delight in the foreshadowing and cross-pollination of episodes and scenes, and there are too many compelling plot points still unresolved to think that quality would suffer. it would not surprise me if the creative powers of firefly choose to continue in big screen and made-for-tv forms, and the movie certainly limits some storytelling options, but, like many here, i'll take my Serenity most anyway I can get it.

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Friday, February 10, 2006 7:51 AM

WALKERHOUND


Quote:

Plus you know, it's cooler to be a browncoat than a trekkie, right? QUOTE]

well at lest we don't look quite as weird when were in our costumes

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Friday, February 10, 2006 8:31 AM

NUCLEARDAY


Quote:

Originally posted by V8LTWT:
So, are we lucky because we got a movie ?


absolutely ;p

Quote:

Or do we keep holding for something else ?



gorramn ruttin' right, we keep holding! :) i want my series back. even if they give us a dozen wonderful movies, I'll keep holding. and the only way I'll ever change my mind is if Cap'n Tightpants himself kicked my door down, socked me upside the head with his patented right hook, and told me he'd found the bullet with my name on it. and, well, even then... you still gotta love the Captain... ;p

I've been a loyal acolyte to the blind idiot god of Teevee for many a year, and I've sat through alot of crap. They finally give me something good, and yank it away just as quickly? I don't think so... they still owe me for Space Rangers, Brisco County Jr, and The Lost World (which HAD to end it's run on a gigantic cliff-hanger...) And none of those could hold a candle to the slimmest aspect of Firefly. Hell, look how many crappy tv shows have had more than one season.

Quote:

I suppose that all we can do is wait for the bean counters to make their minds up & hope that the movie didn't muss up the potential story lines too much !

You're my kinda stupid, V8LTWT. All those high-falutin network and cable big-wigs, and not one of them a browncoat? I think not. Ain't no one gonna up and take notice of the fanbase we got going here on a show that wasn't even given a fair shot?

Okay, I'm gonna simmer down a bit now... ;p




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Friday, February 10, 2006 8:57 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by DJL:
Why resurrect near perfection?



To paraphrase, I'm not so affraid that new episodes would suck that I wouldn't watch them. Joss, Tim, Nathan, Morena, Alan, Gina, Adam, Ron, Jewel, Sean, and Summer would make a beautifull series and I'd like to see that series someday.



David

You wanna go, Little Man?
Only if it's someplace nice with candle light.

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Friday, February 10, 2006 9:29 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Quote:

Originally posted by DJL:
Why resurrect near perfection?



To paraphrase, I'm not so affraid that new episodes would suck that I wouldn't watch them. Joss, Tim, Nathan, Morena, Alan, Gina, Adam, Ron, Jewel, Sean, and Summer would make a beautifull series and I'd like to see that series someday.


Yeah, that's it.

People who don't want it are claiming fear as a reason. But does it really apply here? I'm not so afraid of losing something, like say quality, that I'll avoid the chance to get it.

Apparently there are some here who disagree, they think it will suck if we get any more. Not worth trying. But these people brought us what we love, we owe them at least a little bit of faith.

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