Why Wash is 100% alive and mostly well. by pastorbadger

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Why Wash is 100% alive and mostly well.

POSTED BY: PASTORBADGER
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 23:57
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 68075
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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:27 AM

A post about Alan’s three-picture contract finally drew me off my lurk. I know Wash is alive, and only Joss, River and I know how. I finally decided to share:

**********************

This is a show incredibly rich in subtext and full of detail. It's in these details where you'll find the answer to Wash's demise. Short answer: he's alive, and we'll see him in the next movie.

Let me recount the events that led to this inescapable conclusion.

Detail #1: Wash's final moments.

We all remember Mal dragging the reavers on his tail right into the lap of the fuzzy little surprise party the alliance had waiting for him. We all remember the furball which ensued.

But do you remember, precisely, who was hot on Serenity's tail as she broke for the planet? Sure, our favorite Alliance true-believer followed later in an escape pod. But what ships chased her down? Answers? Anybody? Yes, River: "EVERYONE!"

That's right. An Alliance gunboat tagged them with an EMP weapon, but both flavors of Hell chased them right to ground.

Detail #2: Wash's injury.

That's right. Injury. We all know the contemporary stories of medical miracles. A guy gets a pipe thrust through his skull, and the only consequence is he starts acting a little...well...a little more like Wash. Medical history is rife with accounts of the mighty being brought down by a nick, and the spindly surviving all manner of brutal harm. (The latter being the case I’m trying to highlight right here. Sorry Wash.)

Heck, Wash just catches a pike through the sternum. Not even through the heart. Under normal circumstances, and given the advances in medical technology, my bet is that they don't even make Simon hurry for that one.

Of course, these aren't normal circumstances. With two groups in hot pursuit (the friendlier of the two only wanting to kill you) there's a paucity of time for caring for the wounded, band-aid or no.

Detail #3: The arrival of the good guys, and then the bad guys, and then the worse guys.

This is the defining moment. Let’s examine the guest book at Mr. Universe’s little B&B, shall we?

The Alliance bad guys have been and gone already. We’ll pick up the story as our stalwart band checks in, minus one, soon to be minus two. Skip forward to give our heroes time to entrench themselves and read some typically heroic dialog. Seems like they have quite a bit of time to do this but then, Wash didn’t land so much like a leaf on the wind as he did like a maple seed in a cyclone. It’s going to take our bad guys a moment to catch up.

Who arrives first? Why, it’s the bogeymen. In fact, even though it was an Alliance ship which drove Serenity to ground, and which was in closest pursuit, and who was the most specifically motivated to chase Serenity in particular, (Alliance “to do” list for today: #1 Get the Tams. #2 Don’t get ‘et by reavers. #3 Kill reavers. #4 Did I leave the stove on at home?) , even given all that, the reavers spend a good half-hour getting killed by our little chocolate River before the noble Alliance shows it’s face. Yes? A hand in the back? Jubile: “That seem right to you?” Why no, it doesn’t. The Feds were busy during that half-hour. But wait, we’re not there yet.

Detail #4: Wash’s most recent party.

At the funeral, we’re all respectful. Wash would have been touched (in fact, he will be): Zoe wore something slinky. And in white, the traditional funereal color in most Asian cultures. We light rockets, carrying our messages to Heaven. Sure, closed-casket. Cairns, in fact. Wait? Cairns? Those are typically markers, sans corpus! That’s not how we’ve seen folk buried in the Firefly ‘verse previously! Why? Did they not have a body? Hmmm. More about that in the summation.

The Summation:

We watch a play, and we’re supposed to ignore what we see going on in the wings. We just know that when the curtain goes down, the dead get up and walk off. When we see someone get killed in the movies, we presume that a coroner or EMT will be along to collect the carcass. It’s a detail we needn’t worry about because, with rare exception, disposal of remains aren’t integral to the plot.

But let us now contemplate Wash’s remains. He’s been left Wash-ke-bobbed to Serenity, with no one even checking for a pulse. Even at worst case, he’s freshly dead, but it’s been only moments and his brain pan is still relatively unmolested, ripe for revival.

Now, our bad guys arrive. Suppose the reavers arrive seconds before the alliance. Couldn’t be more than seconds. Remember: the reavers are generally motivated by mayhem and a good meal, and any warm body will do. The Alliance is specifically motivated to get the crew of Serenity, with remaining un-eaten (an admittedly close) second.

So the reavers come across Serenity, a couple crawl through to see whose still inside. All they find is Wash. So maybe he’s still alive enough to warrant a picnic. Maybe not. (The reavers seem particular about lunch being alive AND kicking.) In either case, the bulk of the reavers chase off after the remainder of the crew in search of a meal on the hoof. That’s the part the cameras follow.

In fact, in this complex the reavers are likely to split off in every direction. (Not the most organized lot, reavers.) There are so many after our heroes because the ruckus draws them to fresh game. (Chumming, for a nautical metaphor.)

So here’s the few seconds later when the glorious Alliance sets puts boot to ground. Now it’s their turn to find Serenity. They find a couple reavers gnawing on Wash, maybe a couple more fighting over a drumstick. Munch, munch. A few Feds are the worse for wear. Plink, plink. No more reavers. Wash, though not exactly ready for the prom, is either still alive or at worst freshly dead.

As a Fed with a mission, what do you do? Well, he’s not a Tam, so he isn’t the mission objective. He has been with the Tams, so you can do only one of two things: put him out of his misery, or capture him. Alliance medicine being what it is, you whip out your field kit and give him a dusting of QuickKlot (a real product used by our own Feds in combat, by the way) and take him back to the nearest Alliance ship. Why? So you can put him back together so you can torture him later for information about where the Tams went, of course. You weren’t thinking like a Fed, were you?

In the confusion, what with hundreds of interrupted buffets with I.D. showing up in medbay, one guy without so much as a library card gets misplaced. One John Doe in a coma goes unnoticed as they all depart. The crew returns to Serenity to find only bits of Wash and obvious signs of reaver activity. What would you assume? Even Kaylee believes he’s either gone, or in a reavers “Buffy” lunch box. Tears ensue. Except River, who knows better, but doesn’t yet know she knows. (Pesky psychic ability, that. Incidentally, also why River doesn’t ever win the Persephone lotto.)

**************************************

There it is folks. Wash is 100% alive and mostly well. He’s waking up right now in the security wing of a core planet hospital. By now the Fed’s have figured out who he is, and they’re not happy.

Someone needs to rescue him. Now, who could ever take that job on? Hmmm. How about: “Serenity II: The search for the goose juggler.”

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:35 AM

GRIZWALD

I would love to believe that. :)

____________________________________________________
They could not take the sky from them -
Our Big Damn Heroes made a film!
I'm gonna see Serenity then
go back the next morning and see it again.
Cuz no one at Fox knew this show had no equal
C'mon Universal, and greenlight the sequel!

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:45 AM

EVILDINOSAUR

Yea...I don't think so. I would think if the crew got back to Serenity and Wash's body was gone, it would've made the go "hmm" and they maybe would've held off on the funeral.

And from what I've seen from the series and the movie, medicine has not come to the point of bringing people back from the dead, and even if Wash didn't die instantly, everyone was far too distracted to get him the first aid neccessary to stop him from dying.

I want to believe he's alive, but I just don't see it happening. The only way he's coming back is flashbacks.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:54 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:
There it is folks. Wash is 100% alive and mostly well. He’s waking up right now in the security wing of a core planet hospital. By now the Fed’s have figured out who he is, and they’re not happy.

Someone needs to rescue him. Now, who could ever take that job on? Hmmm. How about: “Serenity II: The search for the goose juggler.”

You know, as many "Wash is alive" threads as I've read, this is the first one that I've found even remotely plausible. But better than that, this is actually pretty compelling! I like the idea quiet a bit actually. It is maybe just a touch cliched ("What? He's back from the dead??"), but that's a small matter to get our pilot back. Only one addendum: they're probably not questioning him about where the Tams went so much as they are to figure out if River spilled the beans.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:04 AM

ZZETTA13

Ok guys,

2 reavers walk into a restaurant,(owned by a reaver) "What's on the menu?"
Chef replies "Wash"

cut to Serenity: reaver takes a bite out of Wash, pinned to the pilot seat, looks up and replies " Tastes like chicken "....drum roll

sorry guys couldn't resist

Pastorbadger, glad that you quit your lurking and jumped in. Really cool post btw. I'm sure someone is looking through the storage ben for a brown jacket for you. Welcome and enjoy the forum.

Z

PS: National Enquirer, Wash is spotted talking to Elvis,Hey it could happen!!

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:09 AM

MRSELLARS

For some odd reason I am now imagining a really bad, late night "B" movie entitled "They Saved Wash's Brain"

MRS

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:21 AM

ENGINEANGEL

THANK YOU SO GORRAM MUCH! this is what i was thinking. all of it, but you put it into words. it's logical, makes sense, and everything.

and those "graves"? they're memorials, i'm almost sure. They didn't bring Book's body with them to Mr. Universe's planet did they? i'm pretty sure they didn'tand wouldn't. and he has a "grave marker" too. The crew didn't find a body so therefore they thought the reavers that had been running rampant ate him and everything. They would probably look some, but if they didn't find him they would assume. and zoe would want wash to have at least a memorial service, even if they couldn't find a body. this is all great and true.

evildinosaur, they probably would have held off on the funeral, like you said. they probably did and looked for the body, like i said, but eventually they would just have to accept the fact, or what they thought was the fact at least.

Quote:
written by evildinosaur
And from what I've seen from the series and the movie, medicine has not come to the point of bringing people back from the dead, and even if Wash didn't die instantly, everyone was far too distracted to get him the first aid neccessary to stop him from dying.

The feds would have had time to get someone who could give them further info on the tams. And i'm sure they would have had doctors on call on the ship that were apart from the soldiers, because after all, it was a dangerous mission they were on. see, they did have the time, because there were so many of them that they had some people to spare.

and Wash's injury, apart from it going all the way through him, wasn't very serious, it didn't go through the heart and wasn't really really big, he could have and was saved. i know it!

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:28 AM

ISAACSHEPHERD

I have a question about something. I thought that the ship chasing Serenity on Mr. Universe's planet was a Reaver ship. I figured since it had an EMP that it would be Reavers, wanting to disable to ship so they can dock and eat everyone instead of blowing the ship appart.

I do like the theory that Wash could be alive though. I have a feeling that either Book or Wash many be brought back but we won't know until we see more. Joss is hard to predict but he usually doesn't keep likeable characters dead for long. But who knows, maybe another one of the movies will be a prequel, or part prequel and part sequel. Only one man knows.
IS

The Bible's a bit fuzzy on the subject of kneecaps.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:34 AM

PASTORBADGER

Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
Yea...I don't think so. I would think if the crew got back to Serenity and Wash's body was gone, it would've made the go "hmm" and they maybe would've held off on the funeral.

And from what I've seen from the series and the movie, medicine has not come to the point of bringing people back from the dead, and even if Wash didn't die instantly, everyone was far too distracted to get him the first aid neccessary to stop him from dying.

I want to believe he's alive, but I just don't see it happening. The only way he's coming back is flashbacks.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

Oh, there was certainly no end of frustration when there wasn't enough to bury, but you know what reavers do with leftovers: they figure he's staked out on the stern of the more fashionable of your reaver ships.

They even check with the Alliance, just in case. But he's a John Doe. The pair that rescued him haven't filed their report, or weren't thorough enough to mention that six live bodies went onto Serenity’s wreckage, and three live bodies and eight dead ones (countin’ reavers) came off. Fed’s aren’t big on the math, you know.

And you have a hard time believing Wash survived that scratch? You want to talk to any state trooper who culled our highway’s harvest in the sixties. Before auto makers decided to stop installing spears pointed at the driver’s chest, a.k.a. non-collapsible steering columns, plenty of folks spent hours alive in just that position.

I ain’t sayin’ it twern’t a miracle. I ain’t sayin’ Wash enjoyed the ride. I’m just sayin’ that given the details, it getting powerful close to likely, let alone possible.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:39 AM

PASTORBADGER

Quote:
Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
I have a question about something. I thought that the ship chasing Serenity on Mr. Universe's planet was a Reaver ship. I figured since it had an EMP that it would be Reavers, wanting to disable to ship so they can dock and eat everyone instead of blowing the ship appart.

Go back and still frame on it. Still has blue chalk on the tires. All nice and shiny like they just took it out of the wrapper.

'Sides, reavers seem to prefer harpoons. Don't have to be sane to maintain 'em, no delicate electronics and all.

EMP reminds me more of the sonic stun guns the Alliance carried. Overthought, but effective.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:41 AM

MATTIE

Pastorbadger,
Your argument is extremely convincing. I hope that you're right, because that'd just be AWESOME!

Wacky fun!

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:46 AM

PINBALLWIZARD

Urg, now we have Serenity 2: In Search of Wash. That's the last thing i'd wish on anyone. Unless, they tie it in with finding out Books past, cause therre's no way he's coming back.

No, I am not insane, I am crazy. Thank you for asking.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:18 AM

ZZETTA13

"The Scene"

Serenitys ramp lowers. Bright light shows the outline of a male figure standing there waiting to board the ship,all hazy looking like Riveres dreams sequences.

Figure starts up the ramp. "Wash....Wash is that you?" Mal asks while other crew members stand about. The figure comes into focus, stands before Mal and salutes. "Bill Paxton. Ready to pilot the ship sir."

What do ya think?

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:24 AM

KELLYOFLUTHIEN

Not convinced, sorry.

I went back and watched the scene in slow motion, pausing as the camera looks down on the big ol' stake going through him. The stake, though it might not have directly hit his heart, was definitely big enough to have collapsed both of his lungs. A person can live without air for 2 minutes. That's cutting it awful close for the Reavers to come in, decide on a snack (but oh, not one that takes any vital organs or anything), and then for the Alliance to come in and somehow decide Wash is not dead when even his Captain and his own wife had already decided he was dead.

Also, Joss is not fond of cliches, and having a person seem to die only to be saved at the last minute seems awfully cliche and un-Joss. Sure, people in Whedonverse come back to life, but they were never not dead. They were 100% dead and only the Powers that Be or magic brought them back (thinking of Angel and Buffy in particular here). And since we don't really have Powers that Be or magic in the Serenifly verse, I don't think Wash is anything but dead right now. Heck, Tara died from one gunshot, and though many people survive from shots like hers, she didn't. And she didn't miraculously come back to life later. It was heartwrenching and senseless, just like Wash's death.

I just don't think Joss would trick us like that.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I love my Captain

Check out my Big Damn FF Icons at http://www.livejournal.com/community/bigdamnfficons/

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:28 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
I have a question about something. I thought that the ship chasing Serenity on Mr. Universe's planet was a Reaver ship. I figured since it had an EMP that it would be Reavers, wanting to disable to ship so they can dock and eat everyone instead of blowing the ship appart.

It was a Reaver ship. If you watch you the opening scenes you will see that the ship does not match the designs of any of the Alliance craft.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:35 AM

STDOUBT

Welcome pastorbadger!
Nice first post. Now don't bogart that
joint k? Gotta be some really good marijuana
in that thing. Seriously, pass it over here 'cause
I'd also like to make up a crazy story on how Wash can come back. We all miss him guy. Breathe, and
accept. Breathe,....and accept.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:35 AM

PASTORBADGER

I can't help but let a big smile slip thinking about river, sober as a judge thanks to getting Miranda out of her head, and Wash now mad as a march hare, thanks to Alliance interrogation.

We actually may see the juggling of goslings...

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:37 AM

KUANGZHEDE

It is so insane...it has to be true...diagram coming shortly

Kuang Zhe De

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:39 AM

GREENFAERIE

I too am sure it was a Reaver ship.

The theory on Wash's return is interesting, but denial can be an ugly thing. He's dead. Please get over it.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:43 AM

PASTORBADGER

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
It was a Reaver ship. If you watch you the opening scenes you will see that the ship does not match the designs of any of the Alliance craft.

Buzzzzzzz! Oh, sorry but thank you for playing our game. Vanna has some lovely parting gifts for you.

We'll ignore for the moment that you've somehow got a comprehensive set of schematics for all Alliance craft in service, including contractors and new, secret designs, and consider the reavers for a moment: They didn't make their ships! They cut up and uglified whatever was left on Miranda. Maybe what they can jack in the performance of their daily mayhem. A.k.a. Alliance ships. Any reaver ship must also be an Alliance design.

It's the lack of really skinny folk ridin' on the outside of the ship I use to make this call. Reavers aren't known for a quick run through the auto-wash before a big battle.

(I meant that to sound considerably less harsh, but forums don't carry tone, so I'll throw one of these in

)

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:46 AM

PASTORBADGER

Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
I too am sure it was a Reaver ship.

The theory on Wash's return is interesting, but denial can be an ugly thing. He's dead. Please get over it.

I disagree, but fortunately this particular Elvis theory doesn't hinge on it. Seems likely, in addition to bein' true, though. Reavers are firing on everyone equally. Alliance are shooting at everyone, but want Serenity in particular.

So some here think it's a reaver makes the shot? Just don't add up. Don't change the facts, neither.

Hell, I ain't even sayin' Wash is STILL alive. Alliance could'a finished the job. Could'a been hit by traffic 'twixt then and now. I've got nothing to "give up". Just tellin' the part of the story we didn't see as I guess it happened.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:48 AM

AMITON

I do like the theory, and would dearly like Wash (and Book) to be fully active and corporeal in any future installments, but I do see two kinks in some of the information that you have here.

First is your response about the EMP, PastorBadger. The Reavers have EMP weapons. They're brought up in Serenity: The Pilot, I believe. Now I'm going to have to go look =p I know they've been addressed, though.

The other hitch I have with the master theory. The reavers likely aren't going to take the time and effort to unspit our dear pilot. That would assert, in the anal retentive styles of the Alliance, that they put into their report that they cut some guy in the pilot seat off of a telephone pole through his chest and revived him from the edge of the deep dark. Those guys answer to the Operative, and he's a thorough kind of guy that would have noticed a detail like that. With that being the case, I would imagine that once he passed along that the Tams were no longer a threat and resigned his post (without so many words) that he might have passed that tidbit along to Mal before he faded into the nothingness.

Just as an ancilliary addendum to your theory, however, I will assert that he did *exactly* that, but for artistic reasons (like this movie had to tie off plot lines in case there wasn't a sequel) the exchange of dialog that had that *crucial* piece of information was excised. We'll get to see it as the opening sequence of the next installment =)

Amiton.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:48 AM

FLIPDOG

Did you watch the movie with commentary!!?? Or, did you watch the end of the movie!?

Gravestone = Dead
Being Impaled through the midsection by a giant barbed, multi-headed harpoon = Even more dead!

Joss says that it was a 'mutual argeement' on killing off the character. Alan would make jokes all the time to the effect of 'my script only goes to page 105...' and everyone would laugh. I'm going to say this for the umpteenth time. Joss has stated that Alan isn't done with the cast, but Wash is gone.

From a story writing standpoint, your assumptions make no sense. "Watch a play" ? I've read the post four times. Um, how does that fit in to a movie. You can't compare the two. Furthermore...if the alliance had come and found Wash slightly alive, they would have at least told the crew when they were being patched up after the battle.

C'mon people...we all miss him. But you're dwelling on this more than Zoe. He's gone (in flesh) so get over it.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:49 AM

KELLYOFLUTHIEN

Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
It was a Reaver ship. If you watch you the opening scenes you will see that the ship does not match the designs of any of the Alliance craft.
Any reaver ship must also be an Alliance design.

So ok, let me get this straight. All Reaver ships are Alliance ships, and this particular ship was also an Alliance ship, but it can't be a Reaver ship because it was an Alliance ship?

Quote:
It's the lack of really skinny folk ridin' on the outside of the ship I use to make this call. Reavers aren't known for a quick run through the auto-wash before a big battle.

I don't seem to remember every single Reaver ship having dead bodies on the outside of them. Did we see that in the pilot? I don't think so. Did we see that on the little spidery ship that Mal blows out of the black? No. Just because there's no dead people riding on top doesn't mean the ship isn't a reaver ship.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I love my Captain

Check out my Big Damn FF Icons at http://www.livejournal.com/community/bigdamnfficons/

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:54 AM

WHOME

That was... incredibly detailed.

But that Reaver harpoon destroyed his heart and lungs. Dude's dead. we may see him in flashbacks or something, but out dear, departed Wash is departed, dear.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:58 AM

ZEEK

I'm with those who say Wash is dead as a doornail. It would ruin the whole ending of Serenity if Wash survived.

Also I'm pretty sure they chose a giant stake because it was so final. There's just no way he survived. It's not like we see him fall over a cliff and don't see him go splat. We get the splat. We get the no more breathing.

The memorial thing is wrong too. Sure Book's body might not be there, but we know darn sure Mr. Universe didn't up and leave. At the very least they probably burried his buffy bot if the Reavers somehow ate him. So, there were bodies to be burried. Besides I think they probably did bring Book's body onboard all Tracy style.

I'm betting they found Wash right where they left him. All dead.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:59 AM

FIREFLYGAL

I'm willing to buy it. And for those of you saying Wash is dead, get over it. Well, it's a movie, Joss can do whatever he ruttin' wants, even bring him back to life. So "get over" our optimism.

Hope springs eternal.

I aim to misbehave!

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:02 AM

FLAUTISTFIRST

Bravo!

Even if it never comes to fruition, I sure had fun reading your idea of how Wash is alive. It is ,uhm, food for thought.

There's no place I can be since I found serenity.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:14 AM

BURKESONGS

He's toast.

I agree that if he is on the show and/or movie screen again we will only see him in flashbacks, or in recordings, but not in the flesh.

I am willing to surmise that his body was intact for burial, though. Reavers don't bother with dead bodies. They like their food alive and kicking. An impaled, deader-than-dead Wash would be of no interest to them.

In the sci fi realm, you never really know though... cloning, anyone???

*************************************

"I am a leaf on the wind..."

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:17 AM

PASTORBADGER

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
I do like the theory, and would dearly like Wash (and Book) to be fully active and corporeal in any future installments, but I do see two kinks in some of the information that you have here.

First is your response about the EMP, PastorBadger. The Reavers have EMP weapons. They're brought up in Serenity: The Pilot, I believe. Now I'm going to have to go look =p I know they've been addressed, though.

The other hitch I have with the master theory. The reavers likely aren't going to take the time and effort to unspit our dear pilot. That would assert, in the anal retentive styles of the Alliance, that they put into their report that they cut some guy in the pilot seat off of a telephone pole through his chest and revived him from the edge of the deep dark. Those guys answer to the Operative, and he's a thorough kind of guy that would have noticed a detail like that. With that being the case, I would imagine that once he passed along that the Tams were no longer a threat and resigned his post (without so many words) that he might have passed that tidbit along to Mal before he faded into the nothingness.

Just as an ancilliary addendum to your theory, however, I will assert that he did *exactly* that, but for artistic reasons (like this movie had to tie off plot lines in case there wasn't a sequel) the exchange of dialog that had that *crucial* piece of information was excised. We'll get to see it as the opening sequence of the next installment =)

Amiton.

Sigh. O.K., lets wade in here. First, to many of you, I ain't sayin' all of this because I have a desperate, abiding need for Wash to have survived. I just think I know what the Alliance was up to in that half-hour.

2. I do recall the mention of a "grappler" in the pilot, but they may have mentioned an EMP beam. Not important. Ship was all shiny and clean. Plus, we've never seen a reaver use an EMP weapon. We HAVE seen them use harpoons aplenty. Don't worry over this bone, because it dosn't change the outcome.

3. "The reavers likely aren't going to take the time and effort to unspit our dear pilot." Who said they'd unspit all of him? In this very movie we saw a couple of 'em settle right down for a meal in the middle of the street. And since they are there for meat, why wouldn't they take the time to do anything? They've got what they came for. It's reaver Miller time.

4a. "Those guys answer to the Operative, and he's a thorough kind of guy that would have noticed a detail like that." The operative stopped reading reports the second he saw the recording. His mission is over. Clean up is left for those who clean up. He's lost his faith, his job, and very likely his kneck soon enough. I think we can forgive him missing that detail.

Plus, although everyone reports to the operative, they don't know it. He called for every ship in the area. They report directly to thier captains. Their captains report to whatever high-ranking officer the operative has exposed his mission to. That (despite Jayne's opinions to the contrary) is the chain of command. Count on the grunts getting maybe two sentences. "Get that firefly and everyone on board". O.K., one sentence. "Don't get 'et" was probably just assumed.

4b. The operative would notice any detail. The two survivors remaining after enetering Serenity with a full squad of six, probably came out in little better shape than Wash. (Never interrupt a reaver at a picnic.) They can certainly be forgiven for neglecting to mention the pike, from which Wash was less than gently removed by two shots from a very large-calibur weapon, or a couple of beads from that fun burning gell from the pilot episode. Remember, the squad is assaulting a large complex. They're certainly carrying stuff to get through stubborn doors.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:19 AM

ZZETTA13

come on guys,

I'm with PastorB on this.

Picky..picky ..picky

Anything can and could happen in the Joss/verse. Just take that rewind back a bit further...nope further... almost... there you go.

Jayne being pulled/stretched out full body length behind the mule while the crew is being chased by gorram reavers. With a metal spike throught the leg noless. Very believable.
Zip to onboard Serenity, Jayne hobbling along after that dang spiky thing, then days later in perfect health. All I can say is SHINY to modern medicine.

Now I'm lead to believe there ain't no hope for Wash. Sorry, I'm an optimist.You're gonna have to find Alan, send him to my house and have him tell me hes dead and Elvis better be with him

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:20 AM

PASTORBADGER

Quote:
Originally posted by KellyofLuthien:
So ok, let me get this straight. All Reaver ships are Alliance ships, and this particular ship was also an Alliance ship, but it can't be a Reaver ship because it was an Alliance ship?

What? You've been to the reaver shipyard? Every reaver ship WAS an alliance ship. And yes, they do seem to get right to uglifying them.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:25 AM

KELLYOFLUTHIEN

Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:
Quote:
Originally posted by KellyofLuthien:
So ok, let me get this straight. All Reaver ships are Alliance ships, and this particular ship was also an Alliance ship, but it can't be a Reaver ship because it was an Alliance ship?

What? You've been to the reaver shipyard? Every reaver ship WAS an alliance ship. And yes, they do seem to get right to uglifying them.

I see you answer this but fail to answer why other reaver ships don't have corpses on them either.

And also, you completely ignored my first post in which I wondering how Wash could have survived a stake attack that almost certainly collapsed both of his lungs.

Still not convinced, bud.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I love my Captain

Check out my Big Damn FF Icons at http://www.livejournal.com/community/bigdamnfficons/

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:26 AM

FIVVER

Just to stir the puddin a bit on the Wash is alive side... For Wash to live, two things have to happen. 1) His body has to be quickly stabalized before brain death can happen. Then he can be 2) taken some place at leisure to be healed.

We know from The Message that healing him is within the capabilities of their technology. Tracy had all of his insides scooped out and replaced - even the removed organs were in storage to be replaced. Now how to stabalize Wash until that can happen? Do they still have River's freezer thingy on board?

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:28 AM

AMITON

Erm...just want to make clear, PastorBadger, I don't disagree on any particular point =) I think the theory is awesome, but it had a few points that were a burr under my saddle, and I wanted to point that out =)

I do think it's likely that Wash is on the other side, personally, but I want to believe otherwise, and I'm willing to remain open to the possibility, and theories like this help that along. I promise, my post wasn't intended in any negative way. I just wanted to smooth the road a little more, for myself and anyone who stumbled the way that I did. Hell, I didn't make it nearly so far as this to logic out a feasible possibility for the theory to work on. I owe you a well-earned kudos on that, and I really should have said as much before.

Apologetically,
Amiton.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:29 AM

PASTORBADGER

Quote:
Originally posted by zzetta13:
come on guys,

I'm with PastorB on this.

Picky..picky ..picky

Anything can and could happen in the Joss/verse. Just take that rewind back a bit further...nope further... almost... there you go.

Jayne being pulled/stretched out full body length behind the mule while the crew is being chased by gorram reavers. With a metal spike throught the leg noless. Very believable.
Zip to onboard Serenity, Jayne hobbling along after that dang spiky thing, then days later in perfect health. All I can say is SHINY to modern medicine.

Now I'm lead to believe there ain't no hope for Wash. Sorry, I'm an optimist.You're gonna have to find Alan, sent him to my house and have him tell me hes dead and Elvis better be with him

Bravo! It's amazing what people will accept as fact, and what is rejected as fancy. And I quote from the book of Firefly - Zoe: "You live on a spaceship, dear." Wash: "What's your point?"

And as for the skewering of Jayne, let's not forget that miracle was accomplished with the resources of a cargo ship's medbay! (All props to Simon, of course.)

Now with a nice big Alliance cruiser, with the kind of medbay that fixed Book's heart with a bullet in it? Himself close enough to Heaven to ask St. Peter to turn his stereo down? C'mon! You just can't please some people.

And it doesn't matter much if the reaver's touched Wash. It just explains what the Feds were so busy doing while river was teaching the reavers the error of their ways.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:42 AM

PASTORBADGER

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Erm...just want to make clear, PastorBadger, I don't disagree on any particular point =) I think the theory is awesome, but it had a few points that were a burr under my saddle, and I wanted to point that out =)

I do think it's likely that Wash is on the other side, personally, but I want to believe otherwise, and I'm willing to remain open to the possibility, and theories like this help that along. I promise, my post wasn't intended in any negative way. I just wanted to smooth the road a little more, for myself and anyone who stumbled the way that I did. Hell, I didn't make it nearly so far as this to logic out a feasible possibility for the theory to work on. I owe you a well-earned kudos on that, and I really should have said as much before.

Apologetically,
Amiton.

How about if I bring you a little closer?

True story. A kid in a new '67 Ford Mustang loses control and kisses a bridge abbutment head-on at about 45 mph. The impact drives the steering column right through his chest. His lungs are punctured and his heart is compressed and can't beat. Dead as stone, he is.

Quick-thinking ambulance drivers grab a concrete saw from an adjacent constrction site and cut him loose. Before the day of paramedics, and before amulances equipped like rolling hospitals, one of the drivers (a medic in WWII) sticks his hand in the kids chest and begins compressions directly on the heart.

The kid survives, albiet with partial pralysis from oxygen deprivation and some spinal damage.

Now, given that true story, how could anyone think that Wash might not have survived. Maybe Alliance medicine ain't what it should be given the year and technology, but it's better than 1967, Earth-that-was. And ask any experienced combat medic: he's seen way worse and then seen them come through it. Not always. Not even most of the time. But they'll all have seen it.

Ask Simon.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:53 AM

PASTORBADGER

Quote:
Originally posted by KellyofLuthien:

I see you answer this but fail to answer why other reaver ships don't have corpses on them either.

And also, you completely ignored my first post in which I wondering how Wash could have survived a stake attack that almost certainly collapsed both of his lungs.

Still not convinced, bud.

Not that I've been keepin' count, but I've never seen a clean and shiny reaver ship. As I've already said, though. Not integral to this chapter of the story.

Forum member Fivver and survvor of Serenity Valley, Tracey answered your second point. We're talking about a verse where girls can be shipped frozen as freight, and guys can be shipped temporarily dead by UPS. Seem so odd to you that a guy two minutes dead could have brain damage halted by a medical Maguffin? Remember: unconciousness at three minutes. Irreperable (with today's techniques) brain damage in twenty! Plenty of time for gettin' gnawed-on, cut out, carried back, and susequently lost in the system.

This has been fun guys. I'll be in my bunk.
(Switches back to lurk mode.)

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:54 AM

KUANGZHEDE

Ok boys and girls, I have got good news and bad news.

The good news

I think Wash may have had a one in a million chance to survive.

The Bad news

He will never dance again

From the attached diagram I have put together, it is feasible (highly unlikely though) that the harpoon (someone said multiheaded and barbed? I think is was shaped like a lance, not sure though)...that the harpoon could have entered right below the heart, in between the major vascular veins, and as it continued in, pushed the heart and lungs up and away with the ever increasing diameter of the harpoon. As mentioned in the bad news, if it was to pull of this miracle, it would have pulverized his spine around the T6 Vertibre.

Thin, but feasible...in fact, this is pretty sad

Please reveiw the following link

Kuang Zhe De

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:08 AM

KELLYOFLUTHIEN

Quote:
Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
Ok boys and girls, I have got good news and bad news.

The good news

I think Wash may have had a one in a million chance to survive.

The Bad news

He will never dance again

From the attached diagram I have put together, it is feasible (highly unlikely though) that the harpoon (someone said multiheaded and barbed? I think is was shaped like a lance, not sure though)...that the harpoon could have entered right below the heart, in between the major vascular veins, and as it continued in, pushed the heart and lungs up and away with the ever increasing diameter of the harpoon. As mentioned in the bad news, if it was to pull of this miracle, it would have pulverized his spine around the T6 Vertibre.

Thin, but feasible...in fact, this is pretty sad

Please reveiw the following link

Kuang Zhe De

This is both the most sickeningly amusing and the most sane thing I've seen all day on this thread. That harpoon went all the way through the back of the seat Wash was in, so it definitely went out Wash's back. And since it was so nicely centered, you're right--it would have gone directly through the spine.

Thank you for this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I love my Captain

Check out my Big Damn FF Icons at http://www.livejournal.com/community/bigdamnfficons/

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:13 AM

PASTORBADGER

Quote:
Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
Ok boys and girls, I have got good news and bad news.

The good news

I think Wash may have had a one in a million chance to survive.

The Bad news

He will never dance again

From the attached diagram I have put together, it is feasible (highly unlikely though) that the harpoon (someone said multiheaded and barbed? I think is was shaped like a lance, not sure though)...that the harpoon could have entered right below the heart, in between the major vascular veins, and as it continued in, pushed the heart and lungs up and away with the ever increasing diameter of the harpoon. As mentioned in the bad news, if it was to pull of this miracle, it would have pulverized his spine around the T6 Vertibre.

Thin, but feasible...in fact, this is pretty sad

Kuang Zhe De

O.K., one more, but then I'm quitting. I promise. I got fuzzy-wuzzies what need Jesus brung to 'em. lol

That's might fine shooting you're a chartin' there, Tex. Exactly dead on? Not 2 centimeters to either side, where by nature an elngated instrument would push the spinal column aside?

But then we go back to, why on earth would you think they can strip little bits off of River's brain, take out your organs and store 'em for weeks, and freeze little girls in boxes, but not be able to repair a pesky severed spinal column?

Folks, there's just no need to take it up as a challenge to poke holes in this idea. I'm sure you've all got flies with wings that need pullin'. The point is: You don't have to believe this chapter for Wash to live. You only have to suspend you disbelief. (Murmur of dawning realization washes over crowd.)

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:19 AM

MATTCOZ

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
They didn't bring Book's body with them to Mr. Universe's planet did they?

They put him front and center, because he's their friend and they wanted to honor him.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:23 AM

KELLYOFLUTHIEN

Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:

O.K., one more, but then I'm quitting. I promise. I got fuzzy-wuzzies what need Jesus brung to 'em. lol

That's might fine shooting you're a chartin' there, Tex. Exactly dead on? Not 2 centimeters to either side, where by nature an elngated instrument would push the spinal column aside?

Aren't you the one who said it went through his center and didn't hit his heart?

Quote:
But then we go back to, why on earth would you think they can strip little bits off of River's brain, take out your organs and store 'em for weeks, and freeze little girls in boxes, but not be able to repair a pesky severed spinal column?

Brain surgery and organ transplants are feasible even in this day and age.

Again, it is highly unlikely, given the amount of damage that Wash suffered from such a huge harpoon, that he was able to survive long enough for the Reavers to snack on him (which would damage him even more, btw) and then for the Alliance to a) take the time to stop the Reavers and b) decide he's somehow NOT dead, get him unpinned by the harpoon, and get him to a medical facility in time to stop massive brain damage, not to mention spinal damage, massive and multiple organ damage, and excessive blood loss.

Quote:
Folks, there's just no need to take it up as a challenge to poke holes in this idea. I'm sure you've all got flies with wings that need pullin'. The point is: You don't have to believe this chapter for Wash to live. You only have to suspend you disbelief. (Murmur of dawning realization washes over crowd.)

The same could be turned around and said to you as well. Denial is the first stage of grief.

Listen to Joss's commentary on the DVD. He talks about Wash's death. Alan has talked about Wash's death. He's dead, Jim.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I love my Captain

Check out my Big Damn FF Icons at http://www.livejournal.com/community/bigdamnfficons/

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:33 AM

XEROGRAVITY

Christ All-friggin mighty!

What's wrong with u ppl?

I've been harpooned thru the sternum no less than a dozen times with a pike and each time it's only been a flesh wound.

For cryin out loud you'd think I've been afflicted with the eternally fatal "common cold" or something.

Gee whiz. Too much speculation. Wash lives.

XG

No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:43 AM

FORDAITH

Simple answer to the entire thing....

We find out quick in the next movie that the entire thing was just a dream of River's

That's right, she wakes up and everything is shiny once again

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:03 PM

NAUTICALGAL

Er . . . howdy! New recruit reporting for duty.

This new recruit wasn't so peeved about Wash's fate, when I had only seen the movie. But when I watched the whole series, well. That's another story. Now I can't see how the thing goes forward without Wash. I mean, sans Wash, what is Zoe, after all? She becomes an echo of either Mal (that hollowed-out-inside type character) or Jayne (the cold gunslinger), where before she was the antitype to both of those -- a stone-cold killer who nevertheless was a whole person, whose wholeness was bound up in her relationship. It didn't come out so much in the movie (aside: why was Wash in the movie such a pale vanilla character compared to Wash from the series? What was up with THAT?). Anyway, if you lose Wash, you lose Zoe too -- she becomes a redundant character, or an unsympathetic one (playing the grieving widow ad nauseum, which I really can't see, which puts us back at Door A).

So, I have joined the "Save Wash!" camp, because I also consider it to be the "Save Zoe!" camp, and without the both of them it just ain't the same!

That said . . .I find this scenario pretty improbable. I think it's pretty clear that the guy was D.E.A.D. dead. As for the Alliance saving him from that condition -- trust me on this, in fiction, you do NOT want the badguys bringing you back from the hereafter. That is just NEVER good. I mean, if the badguys bring you back, it's typically so that you can be their undead minion and serve their nefarious purpose, and is that really what we want for Wash of all people?

I'm also not a fan of the "Serenity 2: The Search for Wash" notion, with River in the Dr. McCoy role. That was cheesy when Star Trek did it. Ditto the "Wash as Obi Wan" ghost-mystic idea (although, you know, that might just work with Book . . . he could haunt Mal and give him daily reports straight from the Special Hell. . .)

But I do think Wash could return; I have my own theories on that score, and they don't involve anybody coming back from the dead or hanging around in incorporeal form. I'd elaborate but I've already gone on a bit excessively for a newbie; apologies!

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:13 PM

NAUTICALGAL

*snort* OK, this analysis had me laughing out loud, especially the graphic. I love it!

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:25 PM

NYTEGAUNT

One point concerning the bodies. While I can see Mr. Universe being left behind all corpsified Book and Wash were part of the crew. The "no man is left behind" creedo plays heavily into the show and one must remember that in almost every army that holds that tradition the tradition applies to your crewmates both alive or dead.

Nyte

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:45 PM

PASTORBADGER

Quote:
Originally posted by nauticalgal:
I think it's pretty clear that the guy was D.E.A.D. dead.

You stymie me. You read and understood the account of the guy who endured almost exactly the same injury as Wash, and survived with 1967 medicine. You have seen the episode where Mal and Zoe sign for a very dead guy (with a very good doctor there to testify to it) sent through the mail. (I can't even get books through the mail that ain't been mangled.)

Still you think that Wash just has to be dead? Understand the difference between resuscitation and reanimation. The former happens every blessed day in our ‘verse. I don’t know if the latter happens every day in theirs, but I’m not going to rule out what’s commonplace here. It’s simply a survivable injury by our current standards.

You nattering nabobs of negativism (sorry, Barry Goldwater moment) are only convincing me that Wash being alive is not only possible, but now likely. WE could have saved Wash, for goodness sake. (Although I have conceded that Zoe would be less than sanguine with what parts of him might be inoperable with today’s medicine.)

I am perplexed at you folks going out of your way to have him dead. Is it fear that we’ll end up with it “all being a dream” or a journey to the sacred MacGuffin to restore his brain, or something equally silly? Spock did it. John Sheridan did it. Colonel O’Neil did it (four times). Did Luke do it? I can’t recall. Why are we so afraid of Wash doing it? (That’s not a serious question.) Because it would strip this wonderful ‘verse of it realism and integrity. That’s why.

My story is sensible, practical and believable. No voodoo, time travel, cloning or visits to the Sacred MacGuffin. Just horse sense and a good field medic. Do not be afraid of Wash surviving his accident. Trust in Joss. Joss will do it right. We’re all counting on it. (But no pressure.)

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:15 PM

BANZAIBILL

I like the theory. I would love it to be true, because I think the Wash/Zoe relationship is a big part of the gestalt that was/is Firefly, and it just seems far too final to kill off two of the characters I liked the best.

I think your theory could work well, if Joss decides he wants Wash back. You're completely correct - the only muster it has to pass is "suspension of disbelief".

"You live in a spaceship". Nuff said.

Thanks for the post!

*** Think of it as evolution in action ***

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