GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Joss Post at Whedonesque

POSTED BY: FIREFLYPASSENGER
UPDATED: Sunday, June 10, 2007 22:49
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Sunday, May 20, 2007 3:49 AM

FIREFLYPASSENGER


May 20 2007 Joss Whedon post on Whedonesque.
http://whedonesque.com/comments/13271#more

Let's Watch A Girl Get Beaten To Death. This is not my blog, but I don’t have a blog, or a space, and I’d like to be heard for a bit.

Last month seventeen year old Dua Khalil was pulled into a crowd of young men, some of them (the instigators) family, who then kicked and stoned her to death. This is an example of the breath-taking oxymoron “honor killing”, in which a family member (almost always female) is murdered for some religious or ethical transgression. Dua Khalil, who was of the Yazidi faith, had been seen in the company of a Sunni Muslim, and possibly suspected of having married him or converted. That she was torturously murdered for this is not, in fact, a particularly uncommon story. But now you can watch the action up close on CNN. Because as the girl was on the ground trying to get up, her face nothing but red, the few in the group of more than twenty men who were not busy kicking her and hurling stones at her were filming the event with their camera-phones.

There were security officers standing outside the area doing nothing, but the footage of the murder was taken – by more than one phone – from the front row. Which means whoever shot it did so not to record the horror of the event, but to commemorate it. To share it. Because it was cool.

I could start a rant about the level to which we have become desensitized to violence, about the evils of the voyeuristic digital world in which everything is shown and everything is game, but honestly, it’s been said. And I certainly have no jingoistic cultural agenda. I like to think that in America this would be considered unbearably appalling, that Kitty Genovese is still remembered, that we are more evolved. But coincidentally, right before I stumbled on this vid I watched the trailer for “Captivity”.

A few of you may know that I took public exception to the billboard campaign for this film, which showed a concise narrative of the kidnapping, torture and murder of a sexy young woman. I wanted to see if the film was perhaps more substantial (especially given the fact that it was directed by “The Killing Fields” Roland Joffe) than the exploitive ad campaign had painted it. The trailer resembles nothing so much as the CNN story on Dua Khalil. Pretty much all you learn is that Elisha Cuthbert is beautiful, then kidnapped, inventively, repeatedly and horrifically tortured, and that the first thing she screams is “I’m sorry”.

“I’m sorry.”

What is wrong with women?

I mean wrong. Physically. Spiritually. Something unnatural, something destructive, something that needs to be corrected.

How did more than half the people in the world come out incorrectly? I have spent a good part of my life trying to do that math, and I’m no closer to a viable equation. And I have yet to find a culture that doesn’t buy into it. Women’s inferiority – in fact, their malevolence -- is as ingrained in American popular culture as it is anywhere they’re sporting burkhas. I find it in movies, I hear it in the jokes of colleagues, I see it plastered on billboards, and not just the ones for horror movies. Women are weak. Women are manipulative. Women are somehow morally unfinished. (Objectification: another tangential rant avoided.) And the logical extension of this line of thinking is that women are, at the very least, expendable.

I try to think how we got here. The theory I developed in college (shared by many I’m sure) is one I have yet to beat: Womb Envy. Biology: women are generally smaller and weaker than men. But they’re also much tougher. Put simply, men are strong enough to overpower a woman and propagate. Women are tough enough to have and nurture children, with or without the aid of a man. Oh, and they’ve also got the equipment to do that, to be part of the life cycle, to create and bond in a way no man ever really will. Somewhere a long time ago a bunch of men got together and said, “If all we do is hunt and gather, let’s make hunting and gathering the awesomest achievement, and let’s make childbirth kinda weak and shameful.” It’s a rather silly simplification, but I believe on a mass, unconscious level, it’s entirely true. How else to explain the fact that cultures who would die to eradicate each other have always agreed on one issue? That every popular religion puts restrictions on women’s behavior that are practically untenable? That the act of being a free, attractive, self-assertive woman is punishable by torture and death? In the case of this upcoming torture-porn, fictional. In the case of Dua Khalil, mundanely, unthinkably real. And both available for your viewing pleasure.

It’s safe to say that I’ve snapped. That something broke, like one of those robots you can conquer with a logical conundrum. All my life I’ve looked at this faulty equation, trying to understand, and I’ve shorted out. I don’t pretend to be a great guy; I know really really well about objectification, trust me. And I’m not for a second going down the “women are saints” route – that just leads to more stone-throwing (and occasional Joan-burning). I just think there is the staggering imbalance in the world that we all just take for granted. If we were all told the sky was evil, or at best a little embarrassing, and we ought not look at it, wouldn’t that tradition eventually fall apart? (I was going to use ‘trees’ as my example, but at the rate we’re getting rid of them I’m pretty sure we really do think they’re evil. See how all rants become one?)

Now those of you who frequent this site are, in my wildly biased opinion, fairly evolved. You may hear nothing new here. You may be way ahead of me. But I can’t contain my despair, for Dua Khalil, for humanity, for the world we’re shaping. Those of you who have followed the link I set up know that it doesn’t bring you to a video of a murder. It brings you to a place of sanity, of people who have never stopped asking the question of what is wrong with this world and have set about trying to change the answer. Because it’s no longer enough to be a decent person. It’s no longer enough to shake our heads and make concerned grimaces at the news. True enlightened activism is the only thing that can save humanity from itself. I’ve always had a bent towards apocalyptic fiction, and I’m beginning to understand why. I look and I see the earth in flames. Her face was nothing but red.

All I ask is this: Do something. Try something. Speaking out, showing up, writing a letter, a check, a strongly worded e-mail. Pick a cause – there are few unworthy ones. And nudge yourself past the brink of tacit support to action. Once a month, once a year, or just once. If you can’t think of what to do, there is this handy link. Even just learning enough about a subject so you can speak against an opponent eloquently makes you an unusual personage. Start with that. Any one of you would have cried out, would have intervened, had you been in that crowd in Bashiqa. Well thanks to digital technology, you’re all in it now.

I have never had any faith in humanity. But I will give us props on this: if we can evolve, invent and theorize our way into the technologically magical, culturally diverse and artistically magnificent race we are and still get people to buy the idiotic idea that half of us are inferior, we’re pretty amazing. Let our next sleight of hand be to make that myth disappear.

The sky isn’t evil. Try looking up.
joss | 05:35 CET | 87 comments total | tags: joss post



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Sunday, May 20, 2007 4:15 AM

PENGUIN




I admire a man who not only talks the talk, but walks the walk. Joss is a great man because of that.

Women are strong. We should build them up instead of breaking them down. It takes an animal to beat down a physically weaker woman. It takes a real man to accept a woman as an equal.






King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 4:56 AM

REDHEAD


Please,after you read the essay, go and read the comments at Whedonesq. You will be proud to be a member of (as a whole
) such an intelligent, articulate group of fans. (Make sure you get to the 99th post--that's Joss again!)

Then, may I humbly suggest you go to Equality Now and donate what you can afford. We--not just those of us who are women but all of us, as humans--must support a change in attitude towards women.

Finally, Let us try to effect a change in our own attitudes. As women, let us strive daily to be as strong and courageous as we can be and those of you who are men, please support us in our efforts.

In memory of Dua Khalil, who {apparently) was destroyed for trying to be herself.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:18 AM

CHRISISALL


This is why Joss is my Hero; he is who I would want to be...a wee bit shorter and a much better writer.

"Men are the weaker sex..."- Max Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:34 AM

FLYVOTE


My little, simple statement at Whedonesque:

I love my wife. She has weaknesses, I have weaknesses. We know each other's weaknesses. She has strengths, I have strengths. We know each other's strengths. At no time will I use my strengths to take advantage of her weaknesses. I use my strengths only to help her. She reciprocates fairly.

All I can ever hope is that more married couples start to behave this way, that more societies start to behave this way, that more countries start to behave this way.

[ edit ] Flyvote | May 20, 16:31 CET



---- ---- ---- ---- ----
FlyVote (version 2.6) Be a Big Damn Hero: http://www.usbmicro.com/misc For Windows/Linux/MacOS9/MacOSX
Vote for our Big Damn Heroes!

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:40 AM

TDBROWN


Haven't been able to post on whedonesque, because it's so busy there... and rightly so.

We, as men, should not knock women down to unrealistic depths, nor should we build them up to unrealistic heights. We should walk beside them, sharing their nobility and strength, combining it with ours, so that we both might stand tall and truly free.

Thank you, Joss, for your courage and your conviction. We're with you, 100%.


"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:53 AM

CHRISISALL


The above two posts belong right up there with Joss' comments! I'm proud to be posting with the likes of y'all!


This is the REAL way to make better worlds Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 7:41 AM

REDHEAD


Hey you all, I know this is a tangent but, if you've been keeping up on the commentary on whedonesque, what do you think about sansmercy being banned.

When I posted earlier about how proud I was of the articulate intelligent fans, I alluded to some being not so good. Two of the posts I was talking about being "less good" were sansmercy and caleb[edit, maybe not caleb--my memory is someone advocated going to another country and forcing them to conform to our belief set].

However, while I didn't like the violence and anger in either post, I also don't like that samsmercy who spoke out against Joss (wrongly IMO) was banned and anotehr who wholeheartedly(and somewhat violently) endorsed Joss apparently was not. Anyone else troubled by this?

edit: some of the later posts seem to indicate that sansmercy came back and made personal attacks. Can someone find this? My poor old eyes are aching and I can't find it.


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Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:25 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by redhead:
edit: some of the later posts seem to indicate that sansmercy came back and made personal attacks. Can someone find this? My poor old eyes are aching and I can't find it.



Actually, I think it was right in her first post.

Quote:

How dare you link this to race.

This is the media's idea that honour killings don't happen in western countries ALL THE TIME, in christian households, in middle class households who have internet access, inside toilets and every advantage poor uneducated people in the middle of nowhere dont' have. That MOST domestic violence is about honour in some form, whether religious or cultural, and that mostly it is covered up for that same honour by men and women for the same reasons the woman in the video died.

You want religious encouragement of violence against women? check your bible. ANY bible. The vast majority of christians will choose not to use it, just like the vast majority of Muslims CHOOSE NOT TO. But it's there if you need it, if you're insane, if you live in an area that encourages fundamentalism as a way of life. If you're a woman there's no answer to it and if you're a man there's a nice excuse for you.

The problem with videos like this is that people watch them and have an excuse to hate entire cultures, vast portions of a map.


I'm also very very tired of people who need visual evidence shoved in their faces of human rights issues in order to feel something. You got so desensitised to violence that you need video footage of the starving, the downtrodden and the dead before you'll give money to a cause? screw you. There is *no such thing* as compassion fatigue. It's an infinite resource, like love. And if you're truly too stupid to realise that death and destruction are BAD THINGS that need to be stopped *without the video*, screw you twice. And I guess that screws over every poor country that can't afford the mobile phones to tape it.

Secret Message to Joss: it took THIS to break you? You weren't paying attention. (emphasis mine)



There was also the edited comment where she was mistaken in her belief that Joss linked to the video. There might have been personal attacks there we won't know about anymore.

---

"If I were a Nazi, someone would defend my constitutional right to hate Jews. If I were a Klansman, someone would defend my rights to hate blacks. It's a funny place, this world. Hate has rights. Love has none." - Jeff, Murphy's Boy

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:29 AM

REDHEAD


I got that her first post contained personal attacks. And I got that she got a warning. Someone else though made a reference to her making another attack. (which I guess could have been reason enough to kick her off but the first time wasn't)

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:32 AM

CROW


As a raging feminist who loves many men I have often pondered the issue. Joss's theory of "womb envy" seems too simple to me (although maybe my theory is just as simple -- it's hard to see these things from outside).

I have always thought that men resented the sexual power women have over them (I certainly have resented the sexual power some men have had over me). I think we all resent being compelled in a direction that isn't the one we might have chosen if given a choice.

So for example when I have a hormonal compulsion to some man who does not reciprocate, I resent my powerlessness in the face of that compulsion. I resent the inevitable humiliation which accompanies said compulsion and I resent the man.

Powerlessness in the face of anything is difficult, and many many times, we are also powerless to fight back. When you are put in a humiliating situation at work, you are often incapable of taking any action on your own behalf. But, in the case of men vs. women, a man can fight back and in fact release ALL of his frustrations about his earthly powerlessness on this one cause.

And, in that way all humans have, we have a tendency to group our resentments. That is, if one man humiliates me through rejection, I can ascribe his nastiness to all men and resent all men for having the potential power to humiliate me through rejection.

It is also quite difficult to reject our own DNA programming so that others do not have the power to belittle us through their rejection. God knows, I try hard not to be a DNA puppet, but there I'm also fighting a force that may be more powerful than I am.

Moved to musing,

Crow

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:39 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by redhead:
I got that her first post contained personal attacks. And I got that she got a warning. Someone else though made a reference to her making another attack. (which I guess could have been reason enough to kick her off but the first time wasn't)



Quote:

edited to say Joss linked to EN.

[ edited by sansmercy on 2007-05-20 13:00 ]



Quote:

Bless me, I apologise wholeheartedly to poor Joss. I didn't click the link because it looks like it links to it - entirely my fault. :-D

I know most men are too busy being upset that they can't bear children and then beating their wives in frustration and jealousy to pay too much attention to where they link. Joss is clearly a highly evolved being.

Womb envy is such a burden on poor men. I blame women, for flaunting their tampon ads and suchlike in the face of mens terrible loss.

Really, womb envy. Brilliant deduction. Not economics or education or lack of power or cultural fear or any number of other possible reasons. No, in the end it all comes down to the fact that nice sensitive men want to make babies and have periods and people who can do that scare them. Okay.



::shrugs::

/tangent

---

"If I were a Nazi, someone would defend my constitutional right to hate Jews. If I were a Klansman, someone would defend my rights to hate blacks. It's a funny place, this world. Hate has rights. Love has none." - Jeff, Murphy's Boy

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:49 AM

REDHEAD


Okay, sansmercy's rude, unpleasant, and childish. But, I still think she has the right to her opinion and that it shouldn't be squelched.

(and thanks for hunting that out for me. My eyes are blurring from searching through the posts.)

Hopefully, though, we (me, at least) won't get too distracted from Joss' point--We all need to do our part to promote gender equality.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 9:29 AM

THEONETRUEBIX


For what it's worth, Crow, Joss himself called the "womb envy" thing "a rather silly simplification, but I believe on a mass, unconscious level, it's entirely true".


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Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:07 AM

GEEKMAFIA


A mod warned sansmercy to cool it after her first post. She then returned giving out that joss linked to the video (he hadn't she just presumed he had) and then came back ranting again. She was warned and went against it Twice. I think she deserves what happened. A mod caroline addressed the whole thing as follows
Quote:

Sansmercy didn't get banned for having a different opinion. She got a time out for being rude and aggressive about it, having already been warned once. That's not the way we talk to each other here, as most people who stick around this place know. They also know we do not discuss moderating policies on site.

From that it sounds like a temp ban anyway not a full time one.

The mods on whedonesque can come off as tough but they don't ban people for disagreeing.




http://midknight.wilson.googlepages.com/home

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:25 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


I apologize for my second post about this subject and I'd like to thank whomever posted this.

Yet another reason to add to all the other reasons of why Joss is IT for me. I truly do love and admire him as a person, not just a writer.

**************************************
"Drew isn't that talented. He just gets away with stuff because he's cute."--David Fury on Drew Goddard
"Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."--Angel
"In Joss We Trust."

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Monday, May 21, 2007 9:41 AM

CANTER


I finally decided to join Equality Now and see if I can make a difference in my own country.

South Africa is a diverse mix of old and new and while I'm lucky to be in a position where I'm not faced with too much discrimination based on my gender, many here aren't so fortunate.

If I can make a difference, I'd take that as an honour.



Big Damn Browncoat Vote http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html


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Monday, May 21, 2007 10:01 AM

REDHEAD


Me, too, It would be interesting to see what was the result on Equality Now's site after Whedon's post.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 10:23 AM

MSG


And this is why Joss is my hero!

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs


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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:51 AM

SASSALICIOUS


Joss's post is spreading all over the internet and rightly so.

I actually saw it on the celebrity gossip blog I read before I got here.

I hate the injustice in the world. I hate the men that propagate this type of injustice and I hate women that allow them to.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Monday, May 21, 2007 12:33 PM

CHINDI


I agree. This is why Joss and his writings are so compelling; and why he attracts such intelligent and thoughtful (as in thinking) fans..

It is a profoundly disturbing story, event and situation. It is made all the more so, as there seems to be this resurgence against women world wide... thinking about the issue and discussing it is a good start! Shine that bright light into that dark corner... then as Joss asks, let us all try to take the NEXT step to action.

I too am proud to be a part of this community. And this is why Joss and all the 'Coats are so important to me personally.

Thank you for the discussion.

Chindi

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Monday, May 21, 2007 12:43 PM

MAZAEN


Quote:

We, as men, should not knock women down to unrealistic them up to unrealistic heights. We should walk beside them, sharing their nobility and strength, combining it with ours, so that we both might stand tall and truly free.


Did you make that up? That is such a thought provoking and articulate quote.

I agree that the truly greatest men in the world are those men that are able to use their strengths to respect women and children. These men seem to benefit from the nobility and quiet strength that these women are allowed to show. These women go on to raise great sons like Joss.


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Monday, May 21, 2007 8:06 PM

ANGELDOVE


I just found this an interesting connection between what Joss posted, and a quote from Early in Objects In Space:

Joss’ post on whedonesque:
Quote:

The theory I developed in college (shared by many I’m sure) is one I have yet to beat: Womb Envy. Biology: women are generally smaller and weaker than men. But they’re also much tougher. Put simply, men are strong enough to overpower a woman and propagate. Women are tough enough to have and nurture children, with or without the aid of a man. Oh, and they’ve also got the equipment to do that, to be part of the life cycle, to create and bond in a way no man ever really will. Somewhere a long time ago a bunch of men got together and said, “If all we do is hunt and gather, let’s make hunting and gathering the awesomest achievement, and let’s make childbirth kinda weak and shameful.” It’s a rather silly simplification, but I believe on a mass, unconscious level, it’s entirely true.


Quote by Early from OIS
Quote:

Man is stronger by far than woman.
But only woman can create a child.
That seem right to you?



And lastly, I know someone already posted the quote
Quote:

If nothing we do matters, than the only thing that matters is what we do.

- as an example of taking the time, whatever time, no matter how little, to do something, anything that can create a positive change in this world. I’d like to add another:

A quote from Joss’ response to sansmercy:
Quote:

One of the things that keeps people from doing anything constructive is the overwhelming feeling that it simply isn't enough. And the withering disdain of people like Sansmercy has a similar effect. It freezes people, makes speaking out or lifting a finger awkward and problematic...whenever a person decides to do something useful -- no matter how late or how little -- that's something useful.


Quote:

Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be.


I believe we are the champions, and we are being called upon to 'show the world what it can be' (ok, yeah, sounds a little corny, so Queen like; couldn’t figure out another way to say it.)

And what I found truly amazing was those few comments on the site stating that Joss is just now ‘waking up to the problems in the world’ - have ya seen his shows, aside from the above quotes? seriously…you're on whedonesque, and you can’t figure out his shows are about girl power, really?

Nice to know I don’t have to worry about such ignorance (sorry was that harsh?) from my wonderful friends here.





"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:03 PM

JWHEDONADDICT


Angeldove: That's actually 2 of my favorite quotes not only from ANGEL, but the entire Jossverse.

The first one, especially, is one I use damn near every day of my life...or should. I suffer from severe depression and the worst days are usually brought on by money or family issues, the feeling that no matter what I do, it's never enough.

I've been so wrapped up in my own family issues lately that I barely am able to digest what's going on in the world even though I actually watch the news almost everyday. Thanks to Joss, I realize how little my problems really are in comparison. I hope there's something I can do to help even though I'm kinda broke.


**************************************
"Drew isn't that talented. He just gets away with stuff because he's cute."--David Fury on Drew Goddard
"Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."--Angel
"In Joss We Trust."

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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:14 PM

CERES


I was flicking through ‘Are Women Human?’ which looked like a really interesting book on this subject although I haven’t had time to read it properly yet. Here’s the summary – ‘More than half a century after the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" defined what a human being is and is entitled to, Catharine MacKinnon asks: are women human yet? If women were regarded as human, would they be sold into sexual slavery worldwide; veiled, silenced and imprisoned in homes; bred, and worked as menials for little or no pay; stoned for sex outside marriage or burned within it; mutilated genitally, impoverished economically, and mired in illiteracy - all as a matter of course and without effective recourse?’

I think just the title is thought-provoking although of course some men are also “impoverished economically, and mired in illiteracy”.

I’d agree with Joss too about “I’m not for a second going down the “women are saints” route – that just leads to more stone-throwing (and occasional Joan-burning)” as that seems to cause just as much discrimination.

...................................


You can question the meaning of life on a floaty
island of your own for a while.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:00 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by redhead:
Hey you all, I know this is a tangent but, if you've been keeping up on the commentary on whedonesque, what do you think about sansmercy being banned.

When I posted earlier about how proud I was of the articulate intelligent fans, I alluded to some being not so good. Two of the posts I was talking about being "less good" were sansmercy and caleb[edit, maybe not caleb--my memory is someone advocated going to another country and forcing them to conform to our belief set].

However, while I didn't like the violence and anger in either post, I also don't like that samsmercy who spoke out against Joss (wrongly IMO) was banned and anotehr who wholeheartedly(and somewhat violently) endorsed Joss apparently was not. Anyone else troubled by this?

edit: some of the later posts seem to indicate that sansmercy came back and made personal attacks. Can someone find this? My poor old eyes are aching and I can't find it.






If Sansmercy was banned for personal attacks, fine, that sort of thing should not be tolerated on a messageboard and banning is justified. If Sansmercy was banned for speaking out or having a differing opinion than someone (even Joss), that is censorship and it is wrong.

I have never seen any sort of censorship at Whedonesque so I tend to think it was the former and not the latter.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

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Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

Color Sergeant

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http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html


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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:08 AM

FIREFLYPASSENGER


<>

I love this quote from Angel, I believe its from the episode Epiphany, I forget which season 2 or 3.

The only thing that matters is what we do. I love Joss' call to action. If we all take a step, ripples will come from that movement.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:11 PM

ANGELDOVE


jwhedonaddict - I agree, those are my favorite quotes from the whedonverse as a whole (philosophy-wise anyway). It's a good thing you find solace in these things, and find a way to make it meaningful to you. I've been where you are, I know that doesn't help, I can't say I've been in the exact same place, but I've definitely been in one like it. The fact that you posted to this board is more than most will do, and as Joss said, just becoming knowledgeable about the subject so you can speak eloquently on its behalf is enough. It doesn't take money or the big win - remember, "even the smallest act of kindness can be the greatest thing in the world". Keep working on you, and keep the verse by your side. Use it for comfort, use it for inspiration, use it to get from day to day. What better use and tribute to his work could he ask for?

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:33 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Crow:
As a raging feminist who loves many men I have often pondered the issue. Joss's theory of "womb envy" seems too simple to me (although maybe my theory is just as simple -- it's hard to see these things from outside).

I have always thought that men resented the sexual power women have over them (I certainly have resented the sexual power some men have had over me). I think we all resent being compelled in a direction that isn't the one we might have chosen if given a choice.

So for example when I have a hormonal compulsion to some man who does not reciprocate, I resent my powerlessness in the face of that compulsion. I resent the inevitable humiliation which accompanies said compulsion and I resent the man.

Powerlessness in the face of anything is difficult, and many many times, we are also powerless to fight back. When you are put in a humiliating situation at work, you are often incapable of taking any action on your own behalf. But, in the case of men vs. women, a man can fight back and in fact release ALL of his frustrations about his earthly powerlessness on this one cause.

And, in that way all humans have, we have a tendency to group our resentments. That is, if one man humiliates me through rejection, I can ascribe his nastiness to all men and resent all men for having the potential power to humiliate me through rejection.

It is also quite difficult to reject our own DNA programming so that others do not have the power to belittle us through their rejection. God knows, I try hard not to be a DNA puppet, but there I'm also fighting a force that may be more powerful than I am.

Moved to musing,

Crow




I think your theory is very discouraging and also very probable.

Not that I completely discount the womb envy thing, because on a very fundamental level men really do not have much of a job in nature. The number of women determines the number of babies being born while - discounting genetic imperfections - it takes only one man. The rest are pretty expendable. On a purely biological level.

That can't not have an impact.

But the sexual resentment issue probably has a much greater infuence on how men deal with that. They could, after all, theoretically try to be as helpful as possible while having as much sex as possible, but coupled with the threat of rejection you describe, that doesn't really work toward a healthy sense of identity.

Men are human beings and shouldn't have a "helper" status any more than women should.

Not to mention the testosterone. Men are physically different. Not lesser women any more than women are lesser men.

I get that men feel the need to have a territory of their own. An independent and valid status that is somewhat defined by their differences to women, apart from anything biology dictates.

I just wish that it didn't have to be so complicated and full of superiority/inferiority and mutual exclusion that it creates such a distance as to make women objects in their eyes rather than peers in humanity.

Maybe if men weren't physically stronger than women, we'd all be happier. Rape and "I'm bigger so I'm right!" gender oppression wouldn't be much of an issue and we would be forced to solve our problems in a rational way.

I'm glad and grateful, though, that we strive for rationality enough that we have come this far in spite of those factors. All things considered, that's pretty amazing and encourages my hope that the rest will catch up, too.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:47 PM

JWHEDONADDICT


Angeldove: Thank you for your words. I definitely will do my best to honor him by doing what I can for others.

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003


"In Joss We Trust."

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:55 AM

LEXIBLOCK


His thread over there and here, does nothing to covert me to anything - I find it unplesant, its like religious fanaticism. Sure its not about the usual supernatural being, but the fanaticism lurks there. Violence is wrong, the gender is irrelevant - and nobody is less equal that the human race.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 2:21 AM

CERES


But isn't that his point? That it's obvious, in much of the world, gender does make a diffence and he's trying hard to understand why.

.............................

You can question the meaning of life on a floaty
island of your own for a while.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 7:12 PM

SCHMOE


Quote:

Originally posted by lexiblock:
His thread over there and here, does nothing to covert me to anything - I find it unplesant, its like religious fanaticism.



Quote:

Originally posted by ceres:
But isn't that his point? That it's obvious, in much of the world, gender does make a diffence and he's trying hard to understand why.



I have to agree with Lexi, I wouldn't express it the same way, but in my mind, Joss's thoughts represent overly simplistic thinking.

Everyone tends to solve problems differently, but I don't think anything gets resolved in a constructive manner when we resort to victimology, or trying to ascribe victims to a “class”. We almost always get side-tracked with feelings of guilt that cause our response to become emotionally disproportionate with whatever it is we are trying to correct.

That being said, bigotry of any variety is wrong, but everything needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis and not an assumption derived from personal reflection. As Lexi said "violence is wrong". Violence between races, genders, whatever, is wrong and is also entirely equivalent. It is impossible to live in a society of equality when one considers violence disproportionate when based on different genders or race, etc.

Anyway, back to my proportionality argument, his whole train-of-thought would eventually lead to overcompensation. Generally speaking that is why I have a big problem with "advocacy" groups -- I don't care if we're talking pro life/choice or any other realm of argument. The groups can take an issue that isn't morally ambiguous and tarnish it by reflexively trying to combat an opposing force (when the opposing force logically shouldn’t be related). Another problem is that those emotionally attached to their issues tend to become locked in all sort of logical pitfalls.

For example, many women in the mid-east are content with their situation (conversely many are not). There is a logical problem -- either we respect others, and how they think, or we admit we are culturally superior and feel it necessary to impress our beliefs upon others. This is mutually exclusive. One has no need to argue with another unless they are convinced the other’s choices were in error.

The perpetrators involved in this middle-east incident need to spend a lifetime in prison, but unfortunately I don't think that the circumstances that created the incident can be addressed. Action causes resentment, and I hate to admit, but resentment is a powerful motivator for hurting others. And perhaps I'm being a little selfish here, but I'm not so noble as being willing to die for someone else's cause. And unfortunately that’s the broader world we live in -- we’ve reached a time when the death of others is a seemingly rational response to an otherwise philosophical disagreement.

If someone can figure out how to solve the problem of resentment without creating even more resentment... Well, they would deserve a lifetime supply of Nobel Peace Prizes.

Granted all of you may disagree. But that’s the beauty of the situation... I really couldn’t care less if you do, thus I don’t harbor any resentment to anyone who thinks differently.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 7:42 PM

QUANDOM


The problem is with Islamic civilization, not men. The treatment of this unfortunate woman would have been unthinkable one thousand years ago in Christian Europe - it was and is typical of Arab and the successor Turkish empires' culture. The Men of the West owe no apologies, but I hope we can all agree that whatever contributions it has made to the arts, the Muslim world is morally degenerate. In the coming clash of civilizations, I require from Whedon and every man living - which side are you on? I bid you stand, Men of the West!

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 7:57 PM

LITTLEALBATROSS


Quote:

Originally posted by quandom:
The problem is with Islamic civilization, not men. The treatment of this unfortunate woman would have been unthinkable one thousand years ago in Christian Europe - it was and is typical of Arab and the successor Turkish empires' culture. The Men of the West owe no apologies, but I hope we can all agree that whatever contributions it has made to the arts, the Muslim world is morally degenerate. In the coming clash of civilizations, I require from Whedon and every man living - which side are you on? I bid you stand, Men of the West!



Either I'm completely missing the sarcasm here or something because if you're seriously claiming that there is no gender-based violence in the Western world than I have to ask which rock you've been hiding under.

And no, we cannot all agree that the Muslim world is morally degenerate.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:04 PM

REDHEAD


Did I miss something or are you, Quandom, really condemning a whole civilization? There are aspects of some Islamic cultures (it is not a monolithic culture as Christianity is not monolithic) I abhor. However, there are aspects of my own culture, I also abhor.
Quote:

The treatment of this unfortunate woman would have been unthinkable one thousand years ago in Christian Europe -
.

Please don't forget the burning of Joan of Arc among many other unfortunate women.

I am sure you didn't realize but you sound as intolerant as those you condemn.

Be intolerant of cruelty but not of entire civilizations. I understand your outrage. I feel it myself but please don't direct it at a whole people--for their opinions may be no more of one cloth than yours and mine

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:23 PM

BORIS


Its good to know that people are so disturbed about human injustice they want to speak out or act against it ... But not only women are treated badly, people with disabilities or from diverse racial backgrounds, children, gay people...people from minorities in general, are subjected to equally unspeakable acts,and this happens in western countries as well. Sadly there are plenty of women who either instigate or allow such behavior, you cannot blame it all on men. (I am a woman that has worked in community services for years so I have seen the things I am talking about)Unfortunately those of us who know this behaviour is wrong, are also a minority.

Rose and boris

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:30 PM

BORIS


In response to the anti islamic rant, and please exscuse any unintentional agression: Ugh!What history accounts have you read? or have you just chosen to be selective. Violent things happened to Christian women, and still do, but because Christianity is part of Western culture, it,s not as widely reported...take your blinkers off!!! Read more widely, be better informed step away from your safety net and see what is happening right in front of you, and then be someone who stands up and helps! dont just rant maniacally about things you dont understand

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 2:35 AM

CROW


Oh yes, that wee little gendercide the burning of the witches was carried out by Martians??? Lowest estimates 50,000 dead (populations were rather smaller during those centuries) - highest estimate 9 million burned alive - discrepancies like that speak volumes to me...

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 3:40 AM

SAHARA


Joss' post was mentioned on Defamer.com yesterday.

http://www.defamer.com/hollywood/short-ends/



Sahara
Blackbird fly into the light of the dark, black night.

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 6:27 AM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA


Quandom have you forgotten the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, Chastity Belts? Christianity, for all of the good it has done, has more blood on its hands than any other religion in history. I truly hope that I am missing your sarcasm here. Islam on the other hand, is responsible in large part for medicine, engineering, mathematics, and the bulk of Greek and Roman Writings, which can hardly be considered nothing other than art.

As to the content of Joss' post - Though I doubt it is the root cause of gender inequality "Womb Envy" does seem to be a logical argument. Men tend to be physically stronger than women, and therefore feel they should be dominant. They also wish to propogate, but know that to pass on their genes they require a woman and that they came from a woman. This confuses them, because it gives women power over them, even though they are physically stronger. Thus, men subjugate the women to maintain this dominance the only way they know how, leading to inequality. After centuries of this dynamic, women have developed a case of stockholm syndrome, identifying with their subjugators' "Right" to dominate them. Now I must say that I am a man, and do not advocate dominance by women just as i do not advocate dominance by men. We're just two halves that make a whole baby and carry on the species. Also, I have no real Sociology training and therefore my ramblings are based entirely on speculation and possibly the "truthiness" of my arguments, which is dangerous in and of its self. But know that I am simply commenting on the topic, and not trying to insult anyone or force anyone to my way of thinking.

As to those who would attack Joss for "Just waking up" to the problems in the world ((Have they ever seen his shows?)) - Better Early than late, but better late than never. I think that is the main thrust of Joss' argument. Should we fight over when someone "Saw the Light" and decided to do something to change the injustices or should we celebrate that they've made the decision and help them in their actions?

"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 10:11 AM

SPACEYCOWBOY


Firstly, i commend joss on his position and how he chose to bring this issue to the minds of so many. I would not expect anything less.

Secondly, this is a very complex issue and like most problems that we all face, their is never a single solution, however their is always determination. the determination of a truly inspired few to make the necessary changes that shape our world. What am i saying? simply this. the negative treatment of women has always been a part of all civilizations since the foundation of the earth. particularly civilizations that have a patriachical structure. no one can understand why women have always been seen as inferior but what we can determine is that the fault lies with mankind as a whole (sorry to disappoint those of you who blame christianity, islam, or religion as a whole for all the problems of the world, particularly those of you who have never read any of the sacred texts and apply your biased interpretation to suit your own needs). This detestable incident that happened to Dua was not because of the religion those people belonged to, it was because they are human. you see, as humans we have always had an unknown and innate reason to dislike outsiders. whether it be women, blacks, whites, jews, muslims, christians, e.t.c.

But how do we do it? we use mediums (this is where religion always comes in it to take the blame). our once infallible religions become a medium (a tool,) used by fallible human beings to propagate their message (remember also that the school sytem was being used in the early 1900's to teach young white children that they were superior to blacks). Anyway as those who have read and understood sacred texts will tell you, not one of them tells you to hate women, jews, e.t.c. we as humans twist and interpret these texts to suit our needs and it is truly sad that so many have bought into false ideas and behaviors and not known why nor thought to seek out the truth.

What do we do? For there to be any change, we as humans need to fight and defeat that innate compulsion in us to be better than. you all know what i mean, you feel that compulsion everyday, you take pride in it. "at least i'm better off than..." "i should be better than..." this kind of unhealthy competition if you look closely is the reason for the hate that people have toward each other. this also may be a simplification of the issue, but it is what i am able to put forth.

It is truly regrettable what happened to Dua. May her soul rest in Peace.


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Thursday, May 24, 2007 10:11 AM

SPACEYCOWBOY


Firstly, i commend joss on his position and how he chose to bring this issue to the minds of so many. I would not expect anything less.

Secondly, this is a very complex issue and like most problems that we all face, there is never a single solution, however there is always determination. the determination of a truly inspired few to make the necessary changes that shape our world. What am i saying? simply this. the negative treatment of women has always been a part of all civilizations since the foundation of the earth. particularly civilizations that have a patriachical structure. no one can understand why women have always been seen as inferior but what we can determine is that the fault lies with mankind as a whole (sorry to disappoint those of you who blame christianity, islam, or religion as a whole for all the problems of the world, particularly those of you who have never read any of the sacred texts and apply your biased interpretation to suit your own needs). This detestable incident that happened to Dua was not because of the religion those people belonged to, it was because they are human. you see, as humans we have always had an unknown and innate reason to dislike outsiders. whether it be women, blacks, whites, jews, muslims, christians, e.t.c.

But how do we do it? we use mediums (this is where religion always comes in it to take the blame). our once infallible religions become a medium (a tool,) used by fallible human beings to propagate their message (remember also that the school sytem was being used in the early 1900's to teach young white children that they were superior to blacks). Anyway as those who have read and understood sacred texts will tell you, not one of them tells you to hate women, jews, e.t.c. we as humans twist and interpret these texts to suit our needs and it is truly sad that so many have bought into false ideas and behaviors and not known why nor thought to seek out the truth.

What do we do? For there to be any change, we as humans need to fight and defeat that innate compulsion in us to be better than. you all know what i mean, you feel that compulsion everyday, you take pride in it. "at least i'm better off than..." "i should be better than..." this kind of unhealthy competition if you look closely is the reason for the hate that people have toward each other. this also may be a simplification of the issue, but it is what i am able to put forth.

It is truly regrettable what happened to Dua. May her soul rest in Peace.


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Thursday, May 24, 2007 10:15 AM

SPACEYCOWBOY


oops. sorry about the double post.

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 1:56 PM

BORIS


Yeah Chastity belts...Weren't they a Christian thing? Another thought Don't members of the KKK and the IRA and the Sicilian Mafia regard themselves as Christian? do they represent the rest of us Christians any more than radical violent Muslims represent Everyone practising Islam?

rose and boris

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 2:27 PM

SASSALICIOUS


Quote:

Originally posted by quandom:
The problem is with Islamic civilization, not men. The treatment of this unfortunate woman would have been unthinkable one thousand years ago in Christian Europe - it was and is typical of Arab and the successor Turkish empires' culture. The Men of the West owe no apologies, but I hope we can all agree that whatever contributions it has made to the arts, the Muslim world is morally degenerate. In the coming clash of civilizations, I require from Whedon and every man living - which side are you on? I bid you stand, Men of the West!



Someone is a bigot, but I can't decide if you hate Islam or the Middle East.

There exist many Islamic countries AND people that don't demonstrate this sort of behavior. "Honor killings" aren't part of the Koran. A lot of Christian sects treat women like crap as well. Possibly not as violently, but equally bad. Does the "rule of thumb" ring a bell for you? For a reference, written by a woman who believes the nonsense, see "Lies Women Believe: And the Truth that Sets them Free" at http://www.amazon.com/Lies-Women-Believe-Truth-that/dp/0802472966/ref=
sr_1_1/002-7662270-7283233?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180052493&sr=1-1
. My favorite lie that I believe is "I have rights".

ANY group that propagates sanctioned inequality and injustice is morally degenerate to some degree. Am I including America? Yes. I'm also including Israel/Palestine, and some tenets of Buddhism (and I love the Buddhism, but male monks are treated far better than female monks (when the exist) which is hilarious because in traditional southeast asian society women commanded far more power and respect than men).

And if you think for a second that the problem doesn't lie with men at all, then I challenge you to dress up as a female and walk down a street at night. You might be surprised at what happens and who the shady characters are.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Friday, May 25, 2007 1:19 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

ANY group that propagates sanctioned inequality and injustice is morally degenerate to some degree. Am I including America? Yes. I'm also including Israel/Palestine, and some tenets of Buddhism (and I love the Buddhism, but male monks are treated far better than female monks (when the exist) which is hilarious because in traditional southeast asian society women commanded far more power and respect than men).

And if you think for a second that the problem doesn't lie with men at all, then I challenge you to dress up as a female and walk down a street at night. You might be surprised at what happens and who the shady characters are.



Sorry for picking on you Sass, cause I like ya, but you're the last one to write on this thread and I don't have the attention span right now to go back to the beginning of this huge post. But.....

1) When you find a society that doesn't propogate sanctioned inequality and injustice, let me know, and I'll buy you a house there.

2) Though I won't argue the bigotry remark, to say that this is a male problem is just as sexist as what quandom said is racist, so I fail to see the fundamental difference in yours and quandom's seperate, but eerily similar ways of thinking here.
________________________________________________

And to everyone else:

As for Joss's problem with Elisha saying "I'm Sorry" in "Captivity", and the fact that this is a female thing as opposed to a torture thing, I call bullshit. Anybody who is tortured says "I'm Sorry" at one point or another. They even begin to believe that maybe something they've done, perhaps all of the bad things that us evil little humans do in life, has somehow made them diserve the torture they're going through and their own guilt for things completely unrelated to the current torture surfaces. Watch "Resevior Dogs" and tell me if the look in the cops eyes wasn't sorry all over when Mr. Blonde was slashing his face and cutting off his ear. Only difference is he had tape on his mouth and couldn't even scream, let alone say "I'm sorry".

If there should be any problem with this movie, I would think it's the fact that anybody would even go to see it in the first place. Just because nobody really died in the making of it doesn't mean that the children and 20 somethings aren't really watching anything more than a fucking snuff flick. I want to know why the two are any different? Guys go and watch this filth and get hardons because they're watching Elisha looking all sexy and then she gets tortured for an hour and (without having seen it) presumably killed. Shouldn't the fact that they know a large enough of us want to watch this shit that they'll make it but they pass on "Serenity II" be the real problem and topic of discussion here?

This post of Joss' was nothing more than another reason why he is as popular today with young women as Oprah is with their mothers. That's just Joss appealing to his prime demographic. "I'M SORRY", but I'm not going to feel like an asshole for having a penis. I nearly had the life beat out of me by 4 guys and took a knife in the back standing up for a girl I only met one time prior. That was torture and the worst part about it is that I kinda did feel sorry for trying to help afterwards. The saddest thing is that I don't think I'd ever do it again, should a similar situation arise....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, May 25, 2007 4:35 AM

SCHMOE


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

And to everyone else:....


I couldn't have said it better. We might be the minority here, but it's better than not agreeing with anyone. I summed up my feelings in my prior post.

Not sure the circumstances about your getting attacked, but I'm really sorry to hear that. Hopefully there weren't any long term problems besides the memories. I unfortunately have a colleague who was in a similar situation.

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Friday, May 25, 2007 12:26 PM

SASSALICIOUS


Can I have a houseboat instead of a house?

And yes, I realize it's not completely a "man thing". I'm currently in a man-bashing mood though and so that's the irrational train my thoughts are taking for the moment, which probably directly relates to finding out another person I know has been sexually assaulted.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Friday, May 25, 2007 12:55 PM

CHRISMOORHEAD


I've always wondered, if women really are as strong as men, why have they been able to be subjected to men in nearly every reach of the known world?

Here's what I've seen, in everything ranging from specicies to races to religions. Someone/thing is going to hate you and/or try to prevent you from prospering at some point. It just happens. Maybe it's not "fair" in the sense of the word that we've been taught, but anything worthy of surviving and being at the top carved it's own way into the equation, not only adapting to it's enviornment, but forcing it's enviornment to adapt to it.

What Joss is writting about reminds me slightly of "White Guilt". Convincing any group, ethnic, sexual, or otherwise that they're entitled to something is not empowering them, it's taking power away.

[IMG]
Ride down from Asgard to the battlefield,
Bringer of the valiant dead who died but never yielded,
Carry we who die in battle over land and sea,
Across the rainbow bridge to Valhalla,
Odin's waiting for me.

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