GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Wash is not really dead!?!

POSTED BY: AUTUMLEAF
UPDATED: Monday, June 11, 2007 18:14
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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 6:43 PM

AUTUMLEAF


Wash is not really dead.....so we don't need no resurrection.

So who is on with my thinking?
When the crew was forced to leave serenity and fight the last battle, they were most likly gone for an extended period after. The Alliance troops and operatives would not let them just waltz back to their ship with out a debriefing of some sort. As those things go....probably it went on for hours and hours. When they did go back to the ship, and did not find Wash still pinned to the chair, they would assume that he had been taken either by the Alliance troops or by the Reavers (for un-named purposes) ick. Either way they assumed he was dead, so they went on with a "memorial" service. Watch your DVD's closely - the service is for ALL the people that died. the video memorial cylinders, on the un-named planet DO NOT appear to be graves. they are not big enough.

Taken by someone yes, but not the reavers as the crew thinks. No, it was the Alliance...but by accident. Put on your combat hats now and Read on.

When there is a battle, there are always the combat troops, and the back up folks. The Alliance troops that poured off the Operatives ship would have been backed up by medics and other personel to triage and clean up the casualties. In the aftermath, the medics would have been going around the area and collecting injured or the dead. Because Wash was not a reaver, they would have taken Wash dead or alive back to the medical facilities or their morgue. reavers bodies are burned by the local planet sanitation dept. anyway, when the crew got back to the ship, the last place they are going to go is to the Alliance to see if Wash was there. Even if they did, they would have received the buracratic run-around because Wash would have been a john doe to the authorities. So, they assume it was reavers that took 'um, and they go about their service. imagine how pissed Zoe is about that.

so how to I figure our Wash is not dead?
Look at the Serenity video again. This is the CSI part. Look at the angle of entry of the spike. While it could be perceived to be going directly in to the heart, it looks in fact to be lower, and thus going into his stomach. While this would sever the main artery to his torso, causing him normaly to bleed to death, the impact was so fast and clean that the spike caused the cauterization of the artery. thus rendered him in Shock, but not dead. Notice in the scene there is no blood? the spike seems to go through him out his back, where again there is no blood, so we have the severd spine to deal with. but I have worked this out too.

So our poor Wash, comes too and the place is crawling with Reavers and Alliance troops, he's trapped, can't move his legs, no one is there to protect him and yes he is dying slowly. What next? Chapter II



AutumLeaf


AutumLeaf,
I still soar.....

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:52 PM

FIREFLYPASSENGER


I like how you think.


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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:51 PM

BLINDOUTLAW


The detail in your theory is, well, creepy! I think you've been watching too much CSI

But hey it could work, Mal was brought back to life by Niska (although Mal wasn't run through with a spike), and the medics on an alliance ship are very good, so Wash may be keeping the wounded allaince soldiers entertained with shadow puppets.

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That was when i found out my pants were on fire, and that's my Courageous story.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:53 AM

HEROUVCANTON




didn't they bury Wash and Shepard Book at then end of the movie? I suppose they could just have been erecting "memorial sites", but Zoe would have not left there without his body.....but I'm open to suggestions!


Dear Diary: Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. Today, we were kidnapped by hillfolk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 1:35 AM

ZZETTA13


I think my sig points to my opinion

Z


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Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:19 AM

CAUSAL


Yup. Really dead.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:25 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE


Wash Lives

I think of Wash's death like a bad marriage.

It seemed like a good idea at the time.
The ceremony was nice.
But now the spouse is revealed to be a vile, abusive, dim-witted lout.
But you wouldn't want to get a divorce because
it would "cheapen" the marriage?!

Book's death had value and made sense.
But you can't "cheapen" a "Cheap Shot".
While some may think Wash's death was a good idea at the time,
I haven't heard ANYONE say,
"Boy I sure am glad Wash is dead!"

Since I feel the death was cheap and frivilous in the first place,
(and we are talking about "entertainment" and "fiction" here)
I want Wash back as a character more than I want to service a
manipulative, low blow.
I admit it, I still mist up at the Bedlam Bards "Leaf On The Wind" song.


Wash Lives,
Mike

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:28 AM

CAUSAL


Really dead. *sniffle*



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Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:03 AM

PENGUIN


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Really dead. *sniffle*





Yep... Like a doornail...




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Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:51 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


I remember a similar theory being posted last year, and it still doesn't quite work for me for one simple reason, and that's that the Reavers were there before the Alliance was, and they're not exactly gentle and fuzzy. Maybe he would have been uninteresting prey for them in his state, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have done anything to him at all.
We'll see what happens in the sequel (yes, gorrammit there will be a sequel) but until then, I consider him to be dead and put to rest on Haven.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 4:11 AM

ZZETTA13


Reaver1 “How do you like Wash”?

Reaver2 “Raw with a bit of honey mustard on the side.”



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Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:06 AM

MRBLUESUN


No i think he probably is dead... but (getting ready for the crazy idea) the Alliance tracked down his grave, stole some usuable tissue from the Wash-corpse and cloned him!
Their a crazy eveil empire who knows what goes through their sick minds (or mine for that matter). Plus i just have this image of a (secertly Alliance spy) clone Wash walking onto Serenity and declaring "Honey, i'm home!"

I may wear brown, but theres a little purple mixed in there to.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:43 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by MrBlueSun:
I just have this image of a (secertly Alliance spy) clone Wash walking onto Serenity and declaring "Honey, I'm home!"


OMG that's... That's... Horrible and yet totally brilliant!
I can see that happening, actually.
Evil and disturbing.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:33 PM

PROTOTYPE7


My 2 hundreths of a dollar...
I am sad Wash is dead. It didn't seem to serve much purpose for me, unless the plan is to prep River as the new pilot. I know people have said she's to unstable but if you remember when they're on the rescue ship watching the pax recording... after she ralphs in the corner she looks at Simon suprised and says the voices are gone... all gone, or something like that. So I think she's got some closure now. I think the memories drove her crazy because she didn't know what they meant. Now all of a sudden the puzzle is clear and easier to ignore or work through. Oops... tangent, sorry.
Anwyho... I think the best bet for more Wash in a sequel would be in flashbacks. That way we all get to see more of the cooky Wash but it doesn't stretch the bounds of reality to much. Granted it's in the crazy space future but still... you gotta play to reason sometimes.
Same goes for Book... I'd love to flashback to find out what he was all about!

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 1:06 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA


Been theorized, postulated and discussed to death by another member years ago, he even tried to hold up his theory with pictures of the spike and how it went through his body, and though many wanted to believe it (me included) it just didn't hold up because in looking at the scene the spike (nearly as thick as a telephone pole) goes through his chest, not his stomache but chest. And even if it missed his heart his lungs would have been puntured, and advanced medicine or no by the time the mess with the Reavers, Mal's crew, and The Operative was concluded too much time would have passed for them to get him into their infirmary, replace the damaged organs (or fix them) resusitate him, and replace all the blood he lost.

Now your going to say they could have gotten to him while the fight was going on with emergency crews following the troops, but again they have the Reavers to attend to, which most certainly would have stopped off on Serenity first to see if there were any survivors or stragglers, they would most certainly have come upon Wash, looked to see if he was alive, and searching the ship would take some time for them (it's a fairly big ship with lot's of nooks and crannys).

As well the Alliance had to fight through a lot of Reaver ships before they found a safe way down to the planet. That's a hell of a long time for a body to sit, heart, lungs, or other organs ripped apart, heavy blood loss, and lack of oxygen to the brain. And the Alliance (which is buerocratic to the end) would have to have fair reason to take a civilian's dead body on board with them, and that's a hell of a lot of forms to fill out. Remember, they refused help of a LIVING injured civilian. As far as they were concerned the only civilians they were ordered to take alive were the Tams, everyone else was and is expendable.

Now I hate being a wet blanket because more than anything I want Wash back, I want that scene not to have happened and I want Wash and Zoe to have millions of fat children. But the truth is it's not gonna happen. Joss went out of his way to deliberately kill Wash for the sole purpose of letting you feel that NO-ONE was safe. Not Mal, Zoe, Kaylee, Jayne.... no-one. As much as I hate him for it and as much as it's made the movie not my top 5, it worked the way he intended, and suddenly it was real. If he would kill off one of the most beloved character's, who else wasn't safe?

It's lovely to think he might be alive and they all get together in the BDS: The Search for better Entertainment, but truth is Joss himself made it clear he killed him off and why.

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*Petrelli for President. Together we can soar.*
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Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:18 PM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA


As disscussed in a previous thread, the Spike going through Wash's trunk was tapered. Now, I'm not saying that without doubt Wash is alive or dead, but due to the tapered nature of the spike and the way the human body reacts when struck with a ballistic object, it is possible however unlikely that it may have missed his necessary organs entirely or in part. Also, we're dealing with "New-tech Medical stuff", and if Simon truely did reattach a girls entire leg then it would be possible that he's not yet dead. As far as blood loss goes, the artery around where he was hit ((If memory serves)) is the descending Aorta, which is very major. However, the femoral artery is similar in size ((Its smaller yes but a lot of blood flows through it)) and would have been severed if this little girl had lost her "whole Leg". Also, this means that most spinal damage would be reparable also, as the femoral nerve would have been similarly severed.

As to why the Alliance would be helping him, it is possible that the medics who found him either A - Wanted to get back to the relative safety of their ship and he was a good enough excuse to B - They didn't know him from Simon Tam or C - some combination thereof or possibility I didn't consider. The Reavers would have gone after the group that was running and shooting at them ((They like their prey alive, which probably means they like their prey to be squirming, and Wash didn't seem to be squirming.))

The only problem I see is that the Operative tells the Alliance that the Tams are no longer a threat so these medics would have no reason to hold him - If they thought he was Simon. 'Tis possible that once they started working on him they didn't know who he was, or that he was still in surgery and no one had stopped to tell the BDHs that he's still alive before they left, or they had an ulterior motive for keeping him. It would be logical for the Parliamentary Intelligence Service to have a second agent secret from the Operative, because you need someone to watch the watchers and to give an objective second opinion. This back up agent might have kept Wash because his superiors don't think that the Tams are no longer a threat and want to use him as a Spy to get close to them ((As above "Honey, I'm not dead!" That is positively evil and almost sounds like something Joss would throw at us, making it seem that he was missing for an innocent purpose so as to make it all the more devastating when he turns.)) Considering what they did to River I don't think "reprogramming" him to be their spy would be out of the question. Especially if they did it so that it was buried deep within his subconcious so that when triggered he'd turn but up till then still be covert from River. Granted, she can apparently see into peoples brains ((I don't know if she was going into the subconcious or not in OiS, Jayne's thoughts seem to be a "Brain Fart", so to speek, brought on by her presence, whereas Book's seem to be deeper)). That last sentance is going to lead into a tangent further down, so fair warning is posted. But because she isn't ((in my opinion)) totally alright, she may just dismiss it as her brain being weird. That way, they can lull them into a false sense of security until they strike.

As far as the reasons behind Wash's death from a storytelling standpoint, Joss did an amazing job at convincing me that all of these people that I had come to love were going to die, and I both Hate and Love him for that. I just want him back in an equally compelling way.

As to the tangent about Book and OiS, when she passes by, he says//thinks "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not, so where does that put you?" or somesuch, but when she passes Mal and Inara, their comments//thoughts seem to be directed at eachother instead of River. Simon and Jayne's comments are clearly directed at her, but Book, Mal, and Inara's aren't so clear. I especially love the laughter after Simon "Thinks" his line, because its obviously innocent but has an edge, as if it was laughing at River. So yeah, was Book thinking about her, or about Jayne? Considering their conversation, about Jayne being sainted et al. this could make sense, especially with book being a preacher who's to go out and make the heathens good christians. Also, in the Bible, it says to the apostles "Go out and any sins you forgive, they are forgiven, but any you do not forgive are not forgiven." So is Book passing down judgement on Jayne? Anyways, sorry to redirect the thread with my ramblings, but an interesting discussion.

P.S. "Steering Column!" I believe that was PastorBadger's argument as to why Wash could be alive. A steering column going through a kids chest in the 60s and him surviving or somesuch.

"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:18 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA


Well whatever you wanna think honey, we can go on all night with point - counterpoint

The medics didn't know Simon from Wash? Even though there would be files on them with their pictures and to be sure some soldiers would be with the medics to protect them and no doubt be fully briefed on what the whole crew looked like, if one remembers Bushwacked, and to a point the end of The Train Job and Ariel. And I think with their technology they'd have a quick way of scanning (through blood or prints) who that lifeless person at the helm was. And medic's or no, they're soldiers and would do their duty and not find a way off the ship and back to their own because they're a little scared. Medic's are just as tough {if not tougher) as soldiers.

I know Reaver's like em fresh, re-read my comment, there would be a few looking around the ship, because psycho or no they'd have enough prescence to see if anyone got stuck behind. Reaver's are very thorough (as shown in Bushwacked)

And I think if I went into the tapered spike theory I'd be here all night writing an entire essay.

Like I said, it's a lovely thought, and if Joss went that way, good for him. But it'd seem cheap and easy and Joss, from what I've seen, never went for cheap, easy, or cliche. If he did we'd never love The Verse or any of his stories as much as we do.

I hate that he's dead, I was shocked when it happened, and it ruined the rest of the movie for me, but even I wouldn't want Joss to bring him back just because I as a fan demanded it. But if he can, and it's reasonable, I'll be screaming around the mountains.

But from what I see, even Linderman wouldn't be able to bring that boy back.

Well.......... maybe Lindy, but he's dead.


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*Peter* Peter*; power *re-peater*~
`@/
/Y
/_)

*Petrelli for President. Together we can soar.*
**********~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**********~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**********~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**********~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**********~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HEROE'S IS MY CRACK!
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~


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Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:26 PM

ELDUSTO


I could have sworn that the Chinese used to, or still do, bury their dead standing up? I, also could have sworn that they used to use cylindric stones for head stones and they were placed right over the grave.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure Wash is dead, sorry.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:53 PM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA


Just to make things clear - The overwhelming evidence is that Wash is dead, though overwhelming evidence can be wrong. I personally think that if Joss brings him back, it will be in such a manner that no one will have thought of it, and it will not seem cliche. As far as everyone knowing what Simon looks like, that would be somewhat wishful thinking, as the number of ships (("Bring in all of the ships in the quadrant." to paraphrase)) involved and therefore the number of crew involved is just too high. Also, in the heat of the moment, and with Reavers about you, identifying a dead or dying body isn't necessarily the easiest thing you could be doing. And yes, medics are probably braver than your average grunt because they have to concentrate on giving aid, not shooting back. But that doesn't mean that they're all absolutely willing to stay to the job when there are cannabal raping sow-your-skin-into-their-clothing types about. So I offer a possibility, not an absolute "It must be this way" dogma.

As far as arguing the point, its already been done, and I think that we don't need to go back into it. Its both possible and highly unlikely that he's alive, but whatever happens, I think Joss will do it right.

"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:56 PM

RIVER6213


The size of the pole and the speed in which it impacted Wash certainly guaranteed a mortal wound, and instant death. Wash is dead and his death was fast which is a rare piece of mercy given to people in this life. Deal with it.

-River




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Monday, June 11, 2007 6:14 PM

AUTUMLEAF


Interesting discussion of my theory people.

I prefer to be positive though.

Anything can happen in MY verse.

After all, it's just good Science-FICTION.



AutumLeaf,
I still soar.....

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