GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Who was Shepard Book?

POSTED BY: 6IXSTRINGJACK
UPDATED: Friday, November 23, 2007 01:21
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Monday, November 12, 2007 5:27 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Really... who was he?

I haven't read the side stories or graphic novels or anything outside of the Firefly/Serenity videoverse, so perhaps others might have more insight on him that I would (or that I might even care to know).

Shepard Book. My favorite character in the 'verse. Sure, I loved Mal's character because what boy didn't grow up wanting to be the hero who , no matter how much pressure, always says and does the right things? Who hasn't wanted to either be or be with Wash? I couldn't think of another man in movie/tv history that women would want to be with more... particularly strong independent women like Zoey. And who could forget Jayne? Certainly not any guy who grew up wishing they could kick the ass of any guy who would kick sand in the face of the scrawny kid and take his girlfriend?

But then there's Book.... nobody knows anything about him. Complete, utter mystery. Not only is he mysterious, but we know that he has seen some unimaginable horror in his life. Book is a man who has stared deep into the eyes of the devil and turned away, rather than be seduced by the power that comes with the dark side.

Is he a hypocrite? By the very definition of the word, who could claim that he wasn't? He is a man who had lived a horiffic past and realized that what he had done was wrong and wanted to spend the rest of his life repenting by trying to help others who may have wandered down the wrong path. I'm not trying to preach here at all... just trying to point out what a smart and caring individual he was.

Book was the most dynamic character in the series, and that's saying a lot since during the first 5 or so episodes, I couldn't figure out if Jayne was a bad guy even though I thought his character was great. Sure... during the season, Book's character was mainly static. He preached at the beginning and he preached at the end after showing us one wicked bed-head scene. But his dynamicity was all played out long before the show and was all meant to be inferred by the audience.

Let us learn a lesson from Shepard Book. Let us not be so quick to judge and label our brothers and sisters trying to help us as hypocrites. Perhaps they too have seen the face of the devil and are only trying to spare those they care about from suffering the same fate.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 12, 2007 6:00 AM

MICJWELCH


I can't pretend to know everything that goes on in Joss's head (I wish...), but I do tend to think that Book is similar to Paul (Yeah, the Paul from the New Testament). I'm certain that he did something, or was something terrible. And some event made him change his life.



"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

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Monday, November 12, 2007 6:08 AM

RALLEM


I believe that Book is the biggest single mystery remaining after Serenity, but I do not think he was the most dynamic character, and I think his death in the movie was the less tragic of the two the crew experienced. Now the reason I feel this way between the two deaths is that Book did seem to have a long and prestigious past, and if Firefly were to go back into series run several episodes could be written of the crew researching the Shepard’s former life. If the crew were to revisit Wash’s past, there might be a few minutes of him flying for the war, and being a prisoner of war, and in all maybe an entire episode of his relationship with Zoey. Perhaps that episode would show the depth of the pair’s arguments and their passion for one another with the culmination of Zoey giving birth to Wash’s child, but other than that I cannot see any more future episodes with Wash’s character present and that is why I feel his death was the most tragic of the two.




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Monday, November 12, 2007 6:29 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I agree with you totally about who was more valuable to the charisma of the characters and the show. Wash wins hands down.

I just know that whatever Book did or had ordered to be done in the past would make Gitmo torture look like Candyland.

Think for a moment about the Mafia and what you've seen in TV shows and movies about them... If someone such as Book were to be a loyal and devoted right had man for the Don Corleone and then one day was to decide that what he was doing was so horrific that he had to quit.... how many days do you think he would survive when the Mafia decided that because of what he knew that he was too much of a liability that he had to die?

Not only did the Alliance not have a bounty on his head, but when they discovered who he was when he was injured they gave him the royal treatment.

Whatever Shepard Book was involved with it was deeper and darker than any horror story we've ever heard about torture at Gitmo bay.

That's where his Dynamicism comes from.... In fact, I can't hardly even think of another character in literature's history that was more dynamic.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 12, 2007 6:31 AM

JONGSSTRAW


If you add up all the little clues about Book, you might come to the following conclusion...:

He was once an Alliance Agent...a special agent who acted as liason between Parliament and Operatives and Bounty Hunters on covert and non-covert missions.

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Monday, November 12, 2007 7:04 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
If you add up all the little clues about Book, you might come to the following conclusion...:

He was once an Alliance Agent...a special agent who acted as liason between Parliament and Operatives and Bounty Hunters on covert and non-covert missions.



Yes... there is very little doubt that that was the case. But go a few years further back. What could make a man so trusted in an organization as powerful as the Alliance that he could hold a title like that?

My guidance counciler never told me about how to do that or how to be a CEO.

Stupid public schools!

No child left behind with my stupid computer babysitting job... grumble grumble.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 12, 2007 7:06 AM

RALLEM


I agree with that assessment, but I wonder what his assignments covered since he had a wealth of knowledge about crime and torture, and almost none about Reavers.


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Monday, November 12, 2007 7:32 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack: Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
If you add up all the little clues about Book, you might come to the following conclusion...:

He was once an Alliance Agent...a special agent who acted as liason between Parliament and Operatives and Bounty Hunters on covert and non-covert missions.

Yes... there is very little doubt that that was the case. But go a few years further back. What could make a man so trusted in an organization as powerful as the Alliance that he could hold a title like that?

My guidance counciler never told me about how to do that or how to be a CEO.

Stupid public schools!

No child left behind with my stupid computer babysitting job... grumble grumble.....


He may have been the guy that Operatives & bounty hunters delivered their prey to. He may have been in charge of their interrogations and/or de-briefings. The brief glimpse of what River sees in him in Objects In Space is enough for me to know that he was not very sympathetic to his detainees, a very scary man.

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Monday, November 12, 2007 9:12 AM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack: Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
If you add up all the little clues about Book, you might come to the following conclusion...:

He was once an Alliance Agent...a special agent who acted as liason between Parliament and Operatives and Bounty Hunters on covert and non-covert missions.

Yes... there is very little doubt that that was the case. But go a few years further back. What could make a man so trusted in an organization as powerful as the Alliance that he could hold a title like that?

My guidance counciler never told me about how to do that or how to be a CEO.

Stupid public schools!

No child left behind with my stupid computer babysitting job... grumble grumble.....


He may have been the guy that Operatives & bounty hunters delivered their prey to. He may have been in charge of their interrogations and/or de-briefings. The brief glimpse of what River sees in him in Objects In Space is enough for me to know that he was not very sympathetic to his detainees, a very scary man.



That is a very imaginative guess Jongstraw, and I am willing to bet you are at least partly correct. Let's say for arguments sake that you are completely correct, what do you think was his light to turn him from that life into that of a Shepherd? We saw in Serenity that Operative turn when he glimpsed his better world, so I wonder what catalyst forced Book’s change.


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Monday, November 12, 2007 9:14 AM

MICJWELCH


I believe Early referred to Book as "That," not "He." A small distinction, I know, but I think it's important. This means one of two things. Either Early didn't know him personally, but knew of him (or a "duplicate" of him). Or he knew him and had a lot of contempt for him.

The Alliance boat that gave Book medical attention did not recognize him. So, likely not a "duplicate," unless his age or lack of uniform made him unrecognizable. But his ident card immediately told them who he was. If Book was retired, then he probably would not have gotten such a warm welcome.

I've heard theories that Book was on board Serenity from the beginning because he was supposed to go after River. I don't agree, because I think Book was genuine in the beliefs he professed. Didn't he get on Serenity before Simon anyway? But I do think he may have known who the Tams were.

Personally, I have a few theories. But like I said, I'm not Joss. Those are my observations anyway. I agree completely that Book is probably one of the richest characters we'll ever come across. I wish we could have found out more.

"You'll have to tell me about that sometime."

"No, I won't."




"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

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Monday, November 12, 2007 9:31 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
That is a very imaginative guess Jongstraw, and I am willing to bet you are at least partly correct. Let's say for arguments sake that you are completely correct, what do you think was his light to turn him from that life into that of a Shepherd? We saw in Serenity that Operative turn when he glimpsed his better world, so I wonder what catalyst forced Book’s change.


I really don't know....everything I have proposed is just speculation. I'll bet there's encyclopedias of stuff people have written about Book over the years.

Maybe it's something just as simple as he had "enough killing"....."enough violence"....enough pain & hurt to others. Or perhaps it was a true calling by God. Maybe he had a personal crisis in his life and he begged God for a chance to do right.

I remember in Star Trek...original series.....the episode Bread & Circuses...there was an ex-gladiator Flavius Maximus ( Rhodes Reason )...he listened to the words of the Son of God after years of slaughter, and he vowed to be a man of peace after that.

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Monday, November 12, 2007 9:35 AM

RALLEM


He did board Serenity before the Tams and I believe he honestly chose the ship by its name, and I believe in his other life he studied Shan Yu.


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Monday, November 12, 2007 9:52 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Jongstraw's theory fits for me as well. I think, whatever else happened, Book did give up his former life and he gave it up willingly.

Which of course means he must have been very, very, high up the pecking order to have been allowed to leave when he had so many secrets. Of course, that's underscored by the Alliance officer's reaction to his identicard in 'Safe'.




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Monday, November 12, 2007 10:30 AM

RALLEM


I am developing a little story about this. Would anyone care to see my synopsis and possibly help me flush it out some? Here it is:

This is a story of Shepherd Book and how he turned from an Operative of the Republic to that of a Shepherd. Operative Book was a devout follower of Shan Yu for forty years and then he was tied up and held over a volcano and that was where he met God. Operative Book who really had no name, adopted Book as his Surname because he originally followed the teachings of one book and now those of another. During those forty years the Operative now known as Book followed the teachings of Shan Yu, his job was to hunt down and torture until death special targets sent to him via the republic. On his last mission as an Operative he caught up to a man and crew very much like Mal and the crew of Serenity on a volcanic moon and after a long and hard fight the Operative was beaten and left helpless hanging over the rim of a volcano. The last act of the Captain before collapsing was to pull in the Operative after hearing him plea to God for mercy and vowing to change. Operative/Shepherd Book gave the crew of the Firefly class transport a proper Christian burial on that volcanic moon, and flew the ship to a junk yard where it was abandoned.

In the beginning of the story, the crew of Serenity will here the plea of a Captain’s daughter asking for the remains of her father and crew be found and if possible retrieved. The daughter who is now a wealthy Doctor gives Mal her father’s diary which was handed to her by a stranger who she feels is somewhat responsible for her father’s disappearance. She will tell the crew at that time that the stranger took it upon himself to get her the grant and to set up her mother with a stipend so she could live fairly comfortably in her remaining years.

What do you think? Can you please help me by asking questions to help me flush this story out some?



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Monday, November 12, 2007 10:58 AM

SPACEHOPPER


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
I believe that Book is the biggest single mystery remaining after Serenity, but I do not think he was the most dynamic character, and I think his death in the movie was the less tragic of the two the crew experienced. Now the reason I feel this way between the two deaths is that Book did seem to have a long and prestigious past, and if Firefly were to go back into series run several episodes could be written of the crew researching the Shepard’s former life. If the crew were to revisit Wash’s past, there might be a few minutes of him flying for the war, and being a prisoner of war, and in all maybe an entire episode of his relationship with Zoey. Perhaps that episode would show the depth of the pair’s arguments and their passion for one another with the culmination of Zoey giving birth to Wash’s child, but other than that I cannot see any more future episodes with Wash’s character present and that is why I feel his death was the most tragic of the two.



I agree with this and I'd also like to add that there is another possible source of information for the previous life of Shepherd Book... River! There is every chance she 'gleaned' some information from him, but of course that would make for a storyline not dissimilar to the BDM.

I for one do not really want to know Book's past without him there to defend himself, as I felt that his reaction to the revelations would have been one of the most interesting parts of his past being divulged, whether voluntarily by him or through some other source.

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Monday, November 12, 2007 11:45 AM

MICJWELCH


I like your thinking, Rallem. I can't say it's the direction I would go with it, but it could be really good. You asked for questions, so here's a couple:

Did he ever have a faith in God before that time?

Did he ever question his position in life before that?

Anyway, there's a few things to start with.

Just for kicks, here's what I thought would actually make for an awesome sequel to Serenity. Book was a duplicate. Not an operative (mostly since Joss said he wasn't), but something similar. One of his duplicates (cue Ron Glass!) was there in the battle at the end of the movie. He got Wash out just in time to save him (and there's the rest of the cast!). This duplicate has most certainly never been through any kind of religious conversion. He is about as evil as they come. And he is using Wash to get to the crew of Serenity. There's my two cents.



"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

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Monday, November 12, 2007 12:06 PM

RALLEM


Thank you. I am still in the initial scene of this story. I am writing it like a screen play. I am not so much worried about dialouge right now, and am just saying what needs to be said in the conversations to get my point across and will go back through them to edit the statements to better reflect the characters later on.


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Monday, November 12, 2007 2:50 PM

STAPLES


Honestly, I think it's all been done.

I always thought Book was an Operative of the Parliment - just lke the one in Serenity. Maybe the Op from the movie went off to be a shepeard, huh? I dunno, but I also don't really want to.

I think the mystery that is the most interesting is why Inara left Sihnon...but that's just me. I just think that NOT knowing Book's past makes him that much more a desireable character. I wouldn't have liked Book if there was no mystery behind his character, and when he died - thinking that I would NEVER know...well, that wrapped it up for me, and I like it that way. It leaves you with no closure, and, thus, you remember the character as a mystery, and he just seems so much moreenigmatic - it makes him seem like he has more and more layers to him. When you peel back those layers, the result may be exactly what you were expecting, and then, maybe even dissappointing. I think that whatever you DON'T say makes peoples' imaginations go off the deep end. Whatever we imagine may or may not be right, but we won't ever know, and that makes us wonder...

We all assume that he had to be something spectacular - and he probably was - but when we DON'T know, we think of the character as something much more spectacular than anything we could imagine.

As for the script idea - not bad, but like Book himself said about the volcano's edge, "I imagine he was being poetical." It sounds like a pretty solid way to tell a Book backstory - but if you write it like a screenplay, I suggest that you keep the fact that Book is the one they're investigating about a secret. I know if I was watching it, and they reviled that Book was the one who had killed these people, it would be way more of a "whoa" moment.

Well, there are my thoughts, if anyone cares...

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:13 AM

SPACEANJL


Just a random thought.

Someone ordered the bio-bombing of Shadow that turned it into a scarred and burnt wasteland, a poisoned world where nobody could live. Someone, several someones, accepted that order, and carried it out.

That might weigh heavily upon a man's conscience.

So might being part of a programme, where men and women of peace with a real desire to do good in the 'Verse, decided to make a better world. Book does know about Reavers - in 'Bushwhacked', he's the one to insist that they are just men.

Though I think Book was something very senior in law enforcement, the equivalent of Homeland Security or the FBI, and probably in the IA side. He knows way too much about bent cops and graft.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:24 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Well according to the BDHs who spilled at a recent con in California, Book was a former Alliance cop. Joss supposedly told Nathan on the phone that it was okay to spill the beans, so that is what they passed on to the acre of browncoats in attendance.

The former Alliance cop angle fits with Books knowledge of firearms, hand to hand combat, criminal activity, Niska, how Operatives work, and the thoughts that River picked up on from him. Seems he was corrupt or saw to much and that is what drove him to become a sheppard.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 6:01 AM

RALLEM


It fits to a point, but in "Safe" Book's welcome after his ident chip was read was not consistant with that of a cop let alone a crooked cop.


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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:14 PM

NEWSHEPHERD


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
...If the crew were to revisit Wash’s past, there might be a few minutes of him flying for the war, and being a prisoner of war, and in all maybe an entire episode of his relationship with Zoey. Perhaps that episode would show the depth of the pair’s arguments and their passion for one another with the culmination of Zoey giving birth to Wash’s child, but other than that I cannot see any more future episodes with Wash’s character present and that is why I feel his death was the most tragic of the two.




Nope...Wash didn't fly in no war , least not as

a military pilot...

Wash is basically a pacifist , and frequently the lone 'voice of reason' when there's dissent among the crew...

There are lots of ways Wash can be back , whether in Series or Movies...

There's room enough in the 'Verse for everyone...

Only limit is imagination...


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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:48 PM

RALLEM


I think in an interview Alan Tudyk said that he thought Wash had flown in the war and was shot down in his first mission and spent the rest of the war in a POW camp, but he did not say on which side for the war he fought on. Of course this all could be Alan's imagination trying to fill in blanks to his character's past, or it could be information which was fed to him by Joss Whedon to help him figure out his character's motivations.


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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:29 PM

STAPLES


I'm almost 100% sure that Alan said that that's what HE came up with about his own character.

I still like the idea, though, even if it isn't Joss'

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Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:48 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Most thoughtful post that I can recall seeing

from you , 6StringJack .


Thoughtful and thought-provoking...The

combination is too rare , at times...

Not from you particularly , mind...

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Thursday, November 15, 2007 12:03 PM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:
Most thoughtful post that I can recall seeing

from you , 6StringJack .


Thoughtful and thought-provoking...The

combination is too rare , at times...

Not from you particularly , mind...



Did his post make you think of cookies or something?


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Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:14 PM

ZEEK


I could see the crooked cop thing working with one of two bits of extra info to explain safe. A.) He used his crooked connections to make himself a fake ident card that would get him all sorts of nice treatment from the feds. B.) He found out some very damaging information about the Alliance and used it as blackmail to get a gold star on his ident card. He'd have to have it worked out so that the info would come out if he was killed. Serenity 2 anyone ;-)

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Thursday, November 15, 2007 3:17 PM

RALLEM


I am not saying that Book was an agent, but for the sake of my fan fiction story he is and I was wondering what sort of plot devices could help build my story.

This is what I have planned so far:

Jayne will have pinched Books ident chip while on Haven and he will reveal this fact to Mal in private while the crew are on their way back to Haven to find clues.

Shepard Book will have a safe deposite box in a 5 star hotel on a busy outer world and inside it will be loads of money, a laser pistol, and some other ident chips. (sort of a bourne thing)

On the planet he was hung over a volcano it will be a corporate mining facility which uses the lava for ceramics similar to that on "Jaynesworld." Through some manipulation of archives the crew will be able to find the actual video showing Book in battle.

I need something to tie this all together and I am using at this moment an old journal from a ships captain whom Book hunted down, but if I could get some more idea I would greatly appreciate it.



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Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:48 PM

SHINYSEVEN2


The crooked cop thing would also work with OiS, because "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent..so where does that leave you?" is exactly the sort of thing a crooked cop would say.

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Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:54 PM

RALLEM


I guess you're right, but I still don't see a plausible reason for the ident chip scene in "Safe," when a crooked cop is involved.


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Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:58 PM

SHINYSEVEN2


I wish I could remember who to credit it do, but the best Ident Card theory I've seen is that Book was the equivalent of a minor Royal--that is, his status came about from family relationships, not from anything he did or didn't do personally.

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Thursday, November 15, 2007 9:07 PM

RCAT


Some of Books traits as clues to his past seem to contradict one another. He knows how to throw a good brawler punch (not martial arts) but knows about and understands covert ops and tactics. He uses "kneecapping" (dirty fighting), not "shooting them in the leg", to rationalise his violence in War Stories. Inara is the symathetic person he goes to in the pilot for absolution (actaully his discomfort w/ her when he learns that she's a companion seems a bit forced, in hindsight). I really would have liked to see his story play out. Old-west style marshall for the out-worlds, gone bad? Co-ordinator for operatives? Mafia inforcer? All good theories. By the time we meet him, Book has been atoning for a while (since before the war)for some tortured past...maybe there will be a prequel series some day featuring a young Derial Book AKA "insert real name or other alias".



"Oh, I've got heathens aplenty right here."
-Sheperd Book

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Friday, November 16, 2007 4:35 AM

MICJWELCH


Actually, I meant to mention this before. In the Serenity novelization, the operative called Book by his first name, Derrial. He then paralyzed him and left him standing there to be shot, because the Operative didn't consider him worthy of his blade. Even Mr. Universe was worthy of the blade, so obviously he didn't like Book much.



"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

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Saturday, November 17, 2007 4:02 PM

DANNIISUPERNOVA


They revealed at Serenity LA that Book was a dirty Alliance cop. Hence this "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not..." comment in OIS.

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

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Saturday, November 17, 2007 4:08 PM

RALLEM


I suppose I could alter my story easy enough to accomidate the crooked cop angle, but I don't like the way in Safe a crooked cop's ident chip would have gotten him superior service, and while he might have been born into a rich family I don't think the Allience would work like that.


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Saturday, November 17, 2007 4:12 PM

JOANNAHOBBIT


Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:
I can't pretend to know everything that goes on in Joss's head (I wish...), but I do tend to think that Book is similar to Paul (Yeah, the Paul from the New Testament). I'm certain that he did something, or was something terrible. And some event made him change his life.



"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."



Good answer i totally agree


Joanna G

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Saturday, November 17, 2007 4:12 PM

JOANNAHOBBIT


Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:
I can't pretend to know everything that goes on in Joss's head (I wish...), but I do tend to think that Book is similar to Paul (Yeah, the Paul from the New Testament). I'm certain that he did something, or was something terrible. And some event made him change his life.



"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."



Good answer i totally agree


Joanna G

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Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:55 PM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by joannahobbit:
Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:
I can't pretend to know everything that goes on in Joss's head (I wish...), but I do tend to think that Book is similar to Paul (Yeah, the Paul from the New Testament). I'm certain that he did something, or was something terrible. And some event made him change his life.



"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."



Good answer i totally agree

That is a very good answer, but wouldn't that be delving way into the christian religion considering Joss is an athiest.


Joanna G




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Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:23 PM

CHARLIEBZ


Quote:

Think for a moment about the Mafia and what you've seen in TV shows and movies about them... If someone such as Book were to be a loyal and devoted right had man for the Don Corleone and then one day was to decide that what he was doing was so horrific that he had to quit.... how many days do you think he would survive when the Mafia decided that because of what he knew that he was too much of a liability that he had to die?
dynamic.



Yes! This is my thought about Book. Actually, I base my entire interpretation of Book by a line from a completely different movie:

"I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd." - Jules Winnfield in Pulp Fiction.


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Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:11 PM

JOANNAHOBBIT


Good way to catch the christian audience and up those ratings. I think Joss was trying to show the variety of different ways people use faith to stay alive.
For Book it was the christianity belief,
for Inara it was budda.
I mean Firefly had a character for every one to admire for me i just can't pick a favourite

Joanna G

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:38 PM

NVGHOSTRIDER


Didn't read the responses but here is my theory:
Book is the Operative. He found a way to travel time to atone for his sins. Though not directly responsible, he still felt a deep responsability to indirectly effect and influence Malcolm. I mean really, who is gonna believe some quack pot shepheard telling them he's from the future trying to save folks from a terrible fate?


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Sunday, November 18, 2007 5:13 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Thanks O2tB....

I'm really enjoying reading the posts here. It's sure a lot nicer out here than in the RW, ain't it?

I think other than my assault on happy pills a year ago, this post by far has the most responses.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 19, 2007 1:17 AM

SNUFKIN


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
I don't like the way in Safe a crooked cop's ident chip would have gotten him superior service, and while he might have been born into a rich family I don't think the Alliance would work like that.



You don't think the Alliance would give preferential treatment to someone from a rich and powerful family? Funny, I think that's exactly the kind of thing they'd do. Repressive regimes are usually riddled with corruption, harbouring individuals who use their positions of authoritarian power to garner bribes and deal out favours for political and personal gain. (Witness Agent McGinnis in Ariel, planning to hand over River and Simon to the Blue Gloves in return for cash.)

I suppose if Book had been some kind of bent cop or maverick operative, he would probably have the skills (or be able to access someone who had the skills) necessary to produce a forged ID card that would open Alliance doors and get him superior service. My take on him is different, though: at first I wondered if he was perhaps some kind of undercover Alliance war hero. His weapons and combat skills certainly indicate active military service of some kind in his past, whether mainstream or special ops. Spaceanjl's theory that Book might be behind something like the destruction of Shadow is an interesting one, but it's difficult to speculate without knowing exactly what his timeline is: did he really spend 20+ years in the abbey before coming out to travel the universe, or is that just a cover story? And of course he's also familiar with Firefly class ships, saying he travelled in them long before Kaylee was crawling.

Maybe as well as wondering what Book's past was and what brought him to become a man of faith, there's another interesting question to be asked: what made him choose to leave the Southdown Abbey, to "bring the Word to them as need it told"? He seems an inwardly-troubled character, despite his often calm exterior: did he feel he had a duty to make amends through evangelism for some great wrong he did in his past?

In the time he is on Serenity his character seems to change, moving from a man who strives to prevent violence and grieves over failing to prevent the death of Dobson, to someone who is fairly comfortable with shooting out the kneecaps of Niska's employees. Is the difference made by the fact that he starts to bond with the crew and feel some sense of responsibility towards their welfare? Are lofty priniciples just harder to maintain out there in the real 'Verse, than in the peaceful grounds of Southdown Abbey?

All in all, Derrial Book is definitely one of the more intriguing characters in Joss's universe. I look forward to seeing what people write about him in the future!




At last. We can retire and give up this life of crime.

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Monday, November 19, 2007 2:59 AM

RALLEM


In episodes like Safe” and “Bushwhacked” we get a glimpse of some rather professional military crews which I do not see as indicative to a corrupt form of government. Sure Mal at the end of “Bushwhacked” Mal says that the Commander had to keep the supplies from the derelict because it would cut on their profits, but I think that is an offhand statement from someone who used to be a sworn enemy of the Alliance and now has ambiguous emotions towards them. At no time did we see an officer or crew member looking for bribes.

I believe in a fictional world like Firefly/Serenity statements like Book claiming to have been in the Southdown Abbey for twenty years should be taken as a fact unless they are refuted fairly quickly, but Joss actually reinforced Book’s claim by having Book recite some humorous anecdotes from the Abbey.

I believe that Book’s difficulty in witnessing the execution of Dobson to the ability of kneecapping Niska’s men is less of a personal journey for Book or any other character then you might think. I believe in Book’s mind, Dobson was acting on the side of good or the side of law, but with Niska’s men they were a sign of evil and corruption that needed some kneecapping. I found it funny that when asked if the bible had said something against killing, Book replied that the bible was very specific about killing and a little fuzzy on the subject of kneecapping, but not for the obvious reasons. Unless they are using a different bible than I have read, the good book is not specific on the act of killing and is only specific on the act of murder.



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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:18 AM

SNUFKIN


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
In episodes like Safe” and “Bushwhacked” we get a glimpse of some rather professional military crews which I do not see as indicative to a corrupt form of government. At no time did we see an officer or crew member looking for bribes.



It's possible for a professional military organisation to exist which still has corrupt individuals operating within it (witness any national police force and several armies operating in the real world today). Especially if that organisation is as large as the Alliance is implied to be in the Firefly 'Verse. In Bushwhacked it's indicated that Commander Harken is on his first tour of duty out on the Rim, so it's not surprising he'd be running a very tight ship and doing things by the book. But the prevalence of principled professionals like Harken doesn't exclude the possibility that there are some rotten apples scattered through the Alliance barrel, especially in outposts where tours of duty might be more hazardous and rewards few and far between.

History shows us that all nations and governments have corruption functioning somewhere within their administrations. If you're lucky, it only involves gerrymandering and influence peddling: if you're unlucky, it's rife in all levels of government, including the police, judiciary and the army. Mid-20th century Germany is a case in point: there was a state with an extremely professional army and police force, yet corruption was widespread amongst many senior officials. Essentially, if people are part of an effectively unopposed quasi-military government (which is what the Alliance resembles), the pursuit of and holding on to power within that organisation becomes very important. If there is no longer any real opposition to Alliance policies and laws, those who are enacting those laws are in a very omnipotent position... And although it's a cliche, it's also a truism: "absolute power corrupts absolutely".

When Simon's father springs him from police custody, he has to cough up 2000 credits and is worried about the fact that his having to show up at a police station will go on his permanent record. This doesn't sound like the concerns of someone living under a particularly benign and equitable administration. One wonders what would have happened to Simon then, if he hadn't been the son of a rich influential man.


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem
I found it funny that when asked if the bible had said something against killing, Book replied that the bible was very specific about killing and a little fuzzy on the subject of kneecapping, but not for the obvious reasons. Unless they are using a different bible than I have read, the good book is not specific on the act of killing and is only specific on the act of murder.



So the kneecapping falls into the category of a little bit of righteous smiting? Yeah, you could have a point there. Makes Shepherd Book a more scary character. He's got all those military skills and the capacity to inflict violence, but is controlling this with his faith and religious principles. Makes him closer to The Operative in some ways. Just as well he appears to be one of the Good Guys...







At last. We can retire and give up this life of crime.

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 3:04 AM

RALLEM


Snufkin wrote:
When Simon's father springs him from police custody, he has to cough up 2000 credits and is worried about the fact that his having to show up at a police station will go on his permanent record. This doesn't sound like the concerns of someone living under a particularly benign and equitable administration. One wonders what would have happened to Simon then, if he hadn't been the son of a rich influential man.

Simon's father was rich and influential and in my opinion that scene showed how corrupt Simon’s father was because he was not willing to stick his neck out to save his own children.

Before I can comment on any other of Snufkin’s comments, I will have to ask if the Blue Sun is the Alliance or if it is just a conglomerate with so much influence over the Alliance that it can do what ever it wants, sort of like Cyber Punk 2020?



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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 3:55 AM

MICJWELCH


Blue Sun is it's own entity. It's a corporation that just happens to be so big it controls most everything that it wants to.



"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:28 AM

RALLEM


Would you say the operatives from blue hand would be in league with the operative from serenity? Do you think Joss simply dropped the Blue Hand Gimmick to prevent having to tell that story too, or do you think they both have operatives working for or against the same goals? This is important because it could mean a new subplot forming.


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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:58 AM

KACEK


It has always been my opinion that Shepherd Book was very high up in government.
We never had a chance to find out what kind of government was on the major planets, other than "the Alliance". We don't know if it was presidential or prime ministerial. It's even an assumption that there were elections, or it could have been more Roman Senatorial type.
Until the movie, I even kinda assumed that maybe Shepherd was absent without leave from whatever position he held.
"I've been out of the world for a while..."
Then the movie came, and there is Shepherd at Haven, which disabuses one of that assumption.

Also, Shephard being killed was the one death that made sense (If ever murder makes sense). After all, there is a tradition of Martyrdom in his belief system.


Kacek

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:19 AM

RALLEM


I just had a wacked out image of Shepherd Book actually being the linch pin to the entire River Tam operation by being on Serenity and making sure the twins and crew are not caught, and the entire Blue Hands/Operatives/Alliance Cruisers are meant to steer the crew in the right direction and to create a sense of urgency or stress to keep River's powers at a proper level until they are needed.


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