GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Make someone else a leaf on the wind

POSTED BY: CHAPTERANDVERSE
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 13:51
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Monday, December 3, 2007 11:08 AM

CHAPTERANDVERSE




Its been a long time since Wash suffered an untimely death (apparently) in the BDM, but my heart has not yet healed.

Though its not in the holiday spirit, I was wondering if anyone else felt that the wrong crew member got the short script.
Who would you have sent to the great anti-Unification bar in the sky or did you think that Wash was the obvious choice for Mr. Whedon's death stick?

Come to that, was anyone hoping that Book would be the sole survivor?




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Monday, December 3, 2007 11:58 AM

MICJWELCH


Well, let's go through the list.

Mal - No way. Can't kill one of the stars. Even if you are Joss. You want people to actually watch the movie, after all.

River - Yeah, right. The whole movie was about how "No power in the verse" can stop her.

Zoe - She needed to stick around for the fight.

Jayne - Also needed for the fight. He wouldn't have gotten much emotional reaction from people anyway. (As much as I love Jayne, he wasn't that likable in the movie.)

Simon - Might work, but honestly I think it would have been a little too much for most audiences.

Inara - Yeah, let's kill the prostitute so we can be just like everyone else.

Kaylee - Kill the little girl? Are you kidding?

Book - His work was pretty much done, and his dying words solidified what he preached.

Wash - He's a pilot. He flew the ship. That part was done.

I think Joss made the right choice on it. He gave his reasons in the commentary for killing off a crew member. I think he needed someone who was by no means weak, but at the same time wasn't really going to be useful for the up-close-and-personal fighting that was about to happen. Yes, for Browncoats, killing Wash was a huge deal. But for new audiences (myself included at the time that I saw it), Wash was a minor character, a Red Shirt if you will. Joss knows what he's doing.



"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

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Monday, December 3, 2007 12:18 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST


I'm fine with Wash having been killed off. His death and that of Book, had the right amount of impact.

I personally wouldn't have missed, Simon being killed off but then the severity of their predicament wouldn't have hit quite as hard had the Doc gone. Wash though was crucial to the emotion of the finalé.

Actually I've been re-watching Firefly and the more I watch, the more Simon bugs the hell out of me. He's just so.............
.....wet. (Sorry TWG)







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Monday, December 3, 2007 1:14 PM

ROMANCEGURU


I would have been devastated had Simon died. I adore that character, he's the most misunderstood of the lot.

I've excepted the way things played out. I'm still curious to see how Joss would include Book and Wash in a sequel as promised though.


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Monday, December 3, 2007 1:47 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


So, how many times WAS Buffy killed?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, December 3, 2007 2:15 PM

SHINYSEVEN2


I didn't get to see the earliest showings of the BDM, but I insisted on being spoiled because if Simon had died, I was going to boycott.

As for Book and Wash dying, well, the whole thing about a war is...people die. Most of whom are greatly missed by at least somebody.

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Monday, December 3, 2007 2:39 PM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
So, how many times WAS Buffy killed?



Twice so far.



David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

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Monday, December 3, 2007 5:59 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA


I can't understand this love people have for Simon. Seriously, of all the characters on the show he's my most least favorite, and River's not far behind (shockers I know, but we all have our favorites)

All the while after I just kept repeating "He killed Wash, etc, etc". Really ruined the rest of the movie for me. I know why he did it, but I thought it was cheap. I watched the end in a blur. Never bought the River/Reaver fight scenes, and I was expecting Zoe to at least give a little snarl River's way (say what you will about all of them volunteering, Wash is dead BECAUSE they chose to go by River's info), and for that I will always.... resent I suppose is the only word I can use.

Was there someone else they could have killed off? YES! But they didn't and the movie will always be sub-par with me. Bitter? You bet. Don't claim to be otherwise. And it is just MOHO.

Maybe, if there is a maybe, he can kill a certain doctor.

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DON'T FREAK OUT

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Monday, December 3, 2007 6:31 PM

PHYRELIGHT


Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:
Well, let's go through the list.

Kaylee - Kill the little girl? Are you kidding?

True! Joss has called Kaylee the heart of the show. Everyone knows that you can't kill the heart of the show.
Quote:

Book - His work was pretty much done, and his dying words solidified what he preached.

Book falls under the mythological archetype of the "wise old man", which means he was destined to be there for the hero long enough to dispense advice then leave the story. Sometimes "leaving" means death.

I really wish Wash didn't have to die, but Joss writes about very real situations, like the untimely death of a friend. Yes, it hurts. But at the same time, it is very true to life. Sometimes people who are close to you die too early, and that reminds everyone else to keep living.

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Monday, December 3, 2007 9:33 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:


Kaylee - Kill the little girl? Are you kidding?




And y'all want Joss to make a sequel!! Who do you think he'll kill off in IT?

Remember his quote about the puppy...

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:16 AM

JONGSSTRAW


If there ever is a BDM Sequel, don't be surprised if Joss has Serenity crashing to the ground, killing all aboard, on their way to receiving their Medals of Freedom from the newly sworn-in Parliament, which replaced the old, evil Parliament after the Miranda scandal.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:24 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I'm fine with Wash having been killed off. His death and that of Book, had the right amount of impact.





I completely agree. The deaths of both Wash and Book had a profound impact on fans, showing that this situation was very serious and that the lives of all of the crew were in very real danger. Joss wanted us to know that no one is safe and unlike most movies the cast is not exempt from death because their names appear on the marquis.

Also recall that Alan himself discussed Wash dying at some point in the second or third season of the show and since the movie wrapped up the River/Alliance story arc, it seems that Alan was right.

I was deeply moved by the death of Wash, moreso than Book. Book has always been a mystery, but what we know of him suggests a man seeking redemption. Perhaps his death defending the people of Haven was the redemption his character sought, while also acting as a means for Joss to keep from having to divulge Book's secret past. So, in short I was okay with Book's death. Not so much Wash's demise. That shock though was what Joss was looking for when he wrote it that way.

If I had to choose someone to die other than Wash, I would have to say I would have picked Simon. Simon could have died protecting River or better yet saving Kaylee, leaving their love unrequitted and allowing a good opportunity for some character development on Kaylee's part. Of all the crew Simon's job as River's protector seems to have become the most obsolete. With River now more in control of herself and being a whirling machine of death she no longer needs Simon's protection. His death also could have been a great catalyst for River development.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!



Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:32 AM

JEANDASK


Quote:

Originally posted by PhyreLight:
Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:
Well, let's go through the list.

Kaylee - Kill the little girl? Are you kidding?

True! Joss has called Kaylee the heart of the show. Everyone knows that you can't kill the heart of the show.



No
Inara is the heart, Kaylee is the sens of family in the show, if she dide there'd be nothing to keep every one together they'd all go their separate ways, except Mal and Zoe.



How come things never go smooth
'My feet are warm, two pairs of socks warm.' Claire Bennet

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 9:24 AM

PAINTITBLACK


I will put my head above the parapet on this one: I would have been much happier if Inara had been the BDM casualty. I never thought a great deal of her character so the Mal/Inara relationship never interested me, and, well, she was not very useful in the final showdown. It would have left a sad Mal but an unbroken Wash/Zoe, one of the few genuinely interesting married couples in TV land.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:03 PM

MERRYK


I have to say, I was surprised Simon wasn't killed off, and he's tied as my favorite character with River. But now that I look at it, it wouldn't have been right. Simon has grown so much since the beginning of the series, but he still has a long way to go. Especially since almost all the focus was on his relationship with River, so that we only got glimpses of the other sides of him; it wouldn't be right, from a writer's point of view, to kill him off just as new doors were being opened for him. But I do think Simon will die in the next reincarnation of Firefly, and I think that's the right direction for his character to go. Wash, on the other hand, is a stable character. Where does he have to develop as a character?

I watched the movie first, and didn't much see Wash as someone important, and even after seeing the series many times, I still don't see a real purpose for him as a character. He's fun, but fun gets really old if you have more than 14 episodes. I love Wash, and I'll miss him, but I think it's better that he was killed off before people started complaining about how he was a one-note character. And really, I mean no disrespect or offense to any of the Wash-lovers out there...but some things have to be done in writing, and I think this had to be done. Yes, I said had, and I meant it literally. Writing, good writing anyway, is not about making the fans happy: it's about creating a masterpiece.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 6:02 PM

PLATONIST


Book's death was understandable in the story context, he was all about getting the "message of belief" to Mal. Mal got it and ran with it, Book's job was done, he dies, and we get it.

Wash's death is not understood so much. The best explanation I've read was it is Joss's way of letting the fans know that the TV series verse (Firefly) was over with and the movie format (Serenity) was the way the story would continue.

Wash and Zoë worked well as the "married couple" in the series, juxtaposed with Mal/Inara's and Simon/Kaylee's painful romantic interludes, but to continue married issues, like child bearing and rearing, into two hour action films, would be awkward and stilted. If there are no issues to explore (us married folks already know what married "means" and "looks" like) why devote precious screen time to them? Wash dies a hero by flying his family to safety. It works.

Joss had to scale back the ensemble cast and make room for a new character, probably a love interest for our Lil Albatross. So, Wash dying kind of makes sense in this context. And he needed Zoë, Jayne, and River for the fight. Kaylee and Inara are the spoils for Simon's and Mal's heroic acts, respectively.

I do agree that Simon will be next, because he would have been another possibility. A story can only have so many heroes.



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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 6:09 PM

MERRYK


And besides, Simon was always the martyr character...he was doomed to eventually never get what he wanted/deserved. Just not until it would mean the most.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 7:18 PM

BORIS


I wept when Wash died...I was devestated when Book ate it...but I think Joss made the right choice, coz it's his creation and therefore his choice...I think I would have been sad if any of them had died particularly Jayne.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 4:14 AM

CHAPTERANDVERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Platonist:
Wash and Zoë worked well as the "married couple" in the series, juxtaposed with Mal/Inara's and Simon/Kaylee's painful romantic interludes, but to continue married issues, like child bearing and rearing, into two hour action films, would be awkward and stilted. If there are no issues to explore (us married folks already know what married "means" and "looks" like) why devote precious screen time to them?



Are all married relationships the same but all painful romantic interludes different? Zoe and Wash had a very interesting relationship, married or single, because they were very different characters. I think that they had lots of issues to explore, a great deal more than the relationships starting and stopping around them.


Quote:

Joss had to scale back the ensemble cast and make room for a new character, probably a love interest for our Lil Albatross. So, Wash dying kind of makes sense in this context. And he needed Zoë, Jayne, and River for the fight. Kaylee and Inara are the spoils for Simon's and Mal's heroic acts, respectively.


Woah, kaylee and Inara are the spoils for Simon and Mal's heroic acts!!

And Zoe gets a dead husband as reward for her heroic acts instead of a grateful spoilee??? That is very, very dubious reasoning.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 5:14 AM

PLATONIST


Ah, married issue... Zoe should have valued her husbands wishes, and LEAVE the ship, had a child (like she said she wanted) and start a family, instead of blindly following her old army CO, out of missed placed loyalty. Wash was constantly asking her for time ALONE and away.

Zoe's weakness is not prioritizing her needs and her inability to create a future solely lands her in a weak female position in my book. So... NO REWARD! for her.

And I do believe it is Jayne, Simon and Inara that save her behind when she is on her revenge rampage.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 5:57 AM

PHYRELIGHT


Quote:

Originally posted by JeanDask:
No
Inara is the heart, Kaylee is the sens of family in the show, if she dide there'd be nothing to keep every one together they'd all go their separate ways, except Mal and Zoe.

I wasn't the one who said that Kaylee was the heart of the show, IT WAS JOSS! He said it during the commentary of the pilot episode. Besides, (paraphrasing Joss again) "heart of the show" means that she is the character that creates the sense of family. And, it also means Kaylee is the soul of the ship; if she believes something, the viewer believes it. (Kaylee: "I thought we loved Monty.") Later in the same commentary, Joss also said that Inara was more like the counselor of the ship.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 5:59 AM

MERRYK


I don't think Joss was trying to punish anyone...it was an example of "bad things happen to good people" and "everything has consequences".

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 6:03 AM

ZEEK


Really I think any one of the crew could have died in the BDM. Even Mal could be done away with. Zoe would take over as captain and we'd watch as the crew struggles to keep the family together.

River could have died when she saved everyone from the reavers. It would have been her heroic sacrifice and life would go on.

If Zoe had died then we'd obviously see the effect it would have on Mal and Wash. We'd have to see if Wash would leave the ship or stay on because he needed the support of the rest of the crew.

Kaylee probably would have been the most emotional loss. She just seems so innocent and sweet that seeing her get reaverized would probably alienate a lot of viewers, but it would have the strongest impact when watching it.

Jayne would have had the least impact. He's a mercenary and in danger a lot. So, seeing him die would have been almost acceptable to audiences. It would only sting browncoats because we don't want to see any of our crew die.

Simon would have been an emotional death too, but he'd die victorious. He got his sister through the storm and she's recovering.

Inara would just be a bystander getting caught in the crossfire. She didn't have much purpose in the fight. She got yanked in because she's Mal's weakness. I would have probably been almost as weak as Jayne dying. The only reason it would be a little more emotional is because she doesn't seem to deserve it.

I think just about any of them could have gone and the audience would have gotten the point that no one is safe. I sure got the point. By the end I was thinking it was all over and no one was going to live.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 6:10 AM

CHAPTERANDVERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Platonist:
Ah, married issue... Zoe should have valued her husbands wishes, and LEAVE the ship, had a child (like she said she wanted) and start a family, instead of blindly following her old army CO, out of missed placed loyalty. Wash was constantly asking her for time ALONE and away.

Zoe's weakness is not prioritizing her needs and her inability to create a future solely lands her in a weak female position in my book. So... NO REWARD! for her.

And I do believe it is Jayne, Simon and Inara that save her behind when she is on her revenge rampage.



Actually, my main problem with your post was the fact that it made Kaylee and Inara "spoils." If you think Zoe is in a weak female position and Kaylee and Inara are just spoils for the heroic guys, then I gotta say I have been watching a whole different BDM and series.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 1:51 PM

PLATONIST



When I speak of "spoils", I speak of them purely as in the context of a fictional story, one of mythical proportions as in Serenity.

Mal and Simon are both the heroes of their stories. Their reward or "spoils" are the opportunities to start relationships with Inara and Kaylee. I in no way see Inara or Kaylee weak or objectified in anyway.

I do think that Joss wanted to hold his characters as accountable for their actions as possible, thus creating a realistic story with consequences for good and bad choices. Zoe and Wash chose to stay on Serenity and follow Mal. Wash dies; Zoe is left as a grieving widow, the consequence for HER choices. Obviously, the outcome would be different if any other character died. And we don't know why Joss chose Wash, the devoted husband. Maybe to him it made the most artistic impact, creating a warrior women widow.


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