GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Down with comics...

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 23:09
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2298
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Monday, June 23, 2008 11:23 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I should first point out that I enjoyed comics as a kid, particularly the Batman from the 70's.
I also enjoy getting updates, info on the FF storyline, background, etc. Comics seem to be the only repeatedly new form of Joss output regarding the verse.

However, the format is severely lacking in the stuff I want from Joss and Firefly.
The camera angles, nuances of performances, multiple character reactions in each shot/angle/scene. Just not happening in comics. There is far too much going on in Joss-created works, comics just cannot present the whole shebang. It would be possible to tediously show everything the camera would show, but each frame would practically be a syllable of a word, and end up being cost prohibited.

I can rewatch the DVDs over and over, seeing new things each time, recalling the nuances, and be jazzed each time I finish an ep or BDM. But the comics mostly leave me frustrated, empty of the saturation of input i expect from a Joss work.

I want more Firefly/Serenity, in motion picture format. Even a cartoon video would be better, but the actor expressions would suffer.

I do want to support the franchise, but the comics format leaves me wanting. The things comics cannot provide are exactly the things that made Firefly a great show.

Let them do Survivor in comics form. Or the Bachelor - nothing happens there.

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Monday, June 23, 2008 11:46 PM

WYTCHCROFT


having trawled the net some - i know there are folks who'll agree with you...

but not me - i thought Better Days was just fine. Sure it could have been longer and ok, the atmosphere is more a progression from Serenity than Firefly - but those are not things to worry me.

I thought Better Days - was actually quite subtle in the way it revealed characters.

I agree Buffy took a while to pick up steam - it was a little overwritten but it found a groove frm episode 3 onward and some issues are flat out fantastic. e.g. issue 10.

As for comics as a whole, well - everyone has their personal faves but the very diversity of those held in esteem disputes (i'm not saying you're wrong like it's a fact or soemthing) your comment.

Off the top of my head i would recommend anything by Alan Moore (and if you like Batman then try his The Killing Joke). The Leeague of Extraordinary Gentlemen is very filmic and V for Vendetta is genius noir. Promethea, my favourite, is insanely visual in its treatment.

Neil Gaiman - Sandman (a very complex interwoven narrative and contender for best comic series ever) - A Doll's House (no kidding!)and A Game of You are probably my choices from the run as a whole.
His 1602 is again very filmic.

on a different track - check out Love and Rockets by Gilbert and Jaime Hernandez and GhostWorld by Daniel Clowes. Very funny, great earthy characters and likeable art. Also, no bloody superheroes for a change.

Brian Talbot's staggering Alice in Sunderland destroys all notions of what constitutes a comic forever.

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Tuesday, June 24, 2008 12:29 AM

RALLEM


It is possible that the current comics do not meet the level needed with a Firefly story, but that does not mean the genre is incapable of doing the job. I remember a new young artist who had started with Marvel Comics by redoing the Daredevil comics and turning them from a ho-hum money losing comic into a real page turner best seller. (Frank Miller posed his wife for many of the Electra Stories in that series) After that Frank went to DC Comics and worked his magic with Batman by making him into the venerable Dark Knight. Frank Miller then went onto the movie Industry where he worked with movie titles such as Robo-Cop, and then became the maker of Sin City and 300. Perhaps we could talk Mr. Miller into penciling a few issues of Firefly?



http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:08 AM

WYTCHCROFT


have you read martha washington??

Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:

Perhaps we could talk Mr. Miller into penciling a few issues of Firefly?



i think he already has! (apologies to dave gibbons)
http://www.moebiusgraphics.com/comics/mwstrandedspace.php
gibbons of course is linked to dr who - so, martha ta da!


Quote:

Frank Miller posed his wife for many of the Electra Stories in that series


funny how comic writers/artists need a muse too!
yay for Cinnamon!:)

Dream "Sandman is over - i'm... UNEMPLOYED!"
Death "Well, i'm just Peachy!
I got a role in the last Bufy comic arc, got to wear my bowler hat and everything!"
Dream "Exhibitionist. And i like your top hat better."


why hasn't anyone flash animated the Serenity comics yet????

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Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:54 AM

SPACEANJL


I might have known you'd know Martha Washington!


But try out Ennis/Dillon's 'Preacher' for a slice of deeply weird American Gothic. (Those guys would fit right into writing a FF comic.)

Alan Moore/Eddie Campbell 'From Hell' A really literate and interesting look at the Ripper myth. (Ignore the film.)

And Neil Gaiman's stuff is packed with myth, folklore, allegory and brilliance. (Don't you just know that the Corinthian sounds like Spike?)



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Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:40 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL


I gotta disagree....The Killing Joke is not for everyone and shouldn't be recommended for those just getting familiar with the medium. It's still debated on message boards and even the writer admits he may have made some heat-of-the-moment choices that he regrets. It's saving grace is the writers that came after to clean up the mess.

I like it, but go into it knowing it's outside the normal realm.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Tuesday, June 24, 2008 5:28 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


I agree that the comics may not be preferable to tv or movie installments from Joss of our beloved 'verse, but they certainly beat nothing, which seems to be the only other alternative at this juncture.

I have liked both of the mini (very mini!) series so far, but I agree that they seemed lacking in some way. I miss the camera angles and other methods Joss used to tell the story for us thus far, but I think that comics can still tell the story. Look at all the praise that Buffy Season 8 is getting right now. I am reading it and each comic is like a tv episode. You can just hear the banter that Joss if famous for, there are the twists and gut punches that he is famous for, and it is some gorram fine storytelling. If they could make Serenity in a monthly like they are doing with Buffy I believe it would do the story justice.

You hearin' me Joss?

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!



Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

Color Officer / X.O. Echo Company



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Tuesday, June 24, 2008 6:50 AM

PENTHOS


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I should first point out that I enjoyed comics as a kid, particularly the Batman from the 70's.
I also enjoy getting updates, info on the FF storyline, background, etc. Comics seem to be the only repeatedly new form of Joss output regarding the verse.

However, the format is severely lacking in the stuff I want from Joss and Firefly.
The camera angles, nuances of performances, multiple character reactions in each shot/angle/scene. Just not happening in comics. There is far too much going on in Joss-created works, comics just cannot present the whole shebang. It would be possible to tediously show everything the camera would show, but each frame would practically be a syllable of a word, and end up being cost prohibited.

I can rewatch the DVDs over and over, seeing new things each time, recalling the nuances, and be jazzed each time I finish an ep or BDM. But the comics mostly leave me frustrated, empty of the saturation of input i expect from a Joss work.

I want more Firefly/Serenity, in motion picture format. Even a cartoon video would be better, but the actor expressions would suffer.

I do want to support the franchise, but the comics format leaves me wanting. The things comics cannot provide are exactly the things that made Firefly a great show.

Let them do Survivor in comics form. Or the Bachelor - nothing happens there.




I agree that the satisfaction and immersion level of the comics doesn't come anywhere near close to what the show provided. To me the comics are little more than story board. I will still buy and read every single one that comes out but the comics don't contain any amazing acting or character subtleties that helped make Firefly so special. Yeah, you can say the artwork was done buy "this guy" or "that guy" but no matter who does it, the comic book format just can't do the show justice.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zoe: Don't think its a good spot sir, she still has the advantage over us.
Mal: Everyone always does; that's what makes us special.

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Friday, June 27, 2008 4:57 AM

SPACEVIKING


ok i dont really care what you think about the firefly comics but to say down with comics is just ignorant and stupid. the comic industry is filled with many great new age comics that delve deep into the problems of socity and tell great stories. not to mention all of the great artwork out there.

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Friday, June 27, 2008 7:49 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

I do want to support the franchise, but the comics format leaves me wanting. The things comics cannot provide are exactly the things that made Firefly a great show.


about a year and a half ago I heard Joss giving a radio interview where he was saying he didn't want to do more Firefly/Serenity comics... he REALLY wanted to tell his stories with the actors who were the living embodiment of the characters he created and loved.

He wasn't really wanting to get Buffy or Angel back up on the screen, and he was really happy to tell more stories about those characters in comic book form, where he could have Giant Dawn fighting MechaDawn, and where Groo can swoop into the scene on a flying horse (not to mention Angel himself on a Dragon!!)....

But a lot of time has gone by, and saying 'movies or nothing' is kind of cutting his nose off to spite his face.... He is filled to the brim with stories he is DYING to tell! He wants to tell us these stories!

Now you can go ahead and you can say 'movies or nothing' but personally I wouldn't give up the comics for anything.... I want to hear all of Joss' stories, and I am thrilled to hear them in whatever medium he is telling them.



New Firefly fans should check this out: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=15816

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Friday, June 27, 2008 8:14 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
I gotta disagree....The Killing Joke is not for everyone and shouldn't be recommended for those just getting familiar with the medium. It's still debated on message boards and even the writer admits he may have made some heat-of-the-moment choices that he regrets.



yeah - fair point... but i think it's amazing, manic and vicious and cinematic (which is why it's been ripped off so much since) warts and all. and it's shorter than the dark knight returns!:)

my favourite period for Batman is actually Neil Addams and Denny O'Neil but things like Batman Year One, Arkhum Asylum, Killing Joke, Dark Knight - wonderful stuff.

is there a normal realm for the batman???

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Friday, June 27, 2008 11:26 AM

PEPPERG


well, seems like a good place to post my opinion on the serenity comics:


as a fan of firefly/serenity, i expected i'd enjoy the 2 series of comics what have been released, but i found that i didn't really enjoy either, and instead felt that they cheapened the franchise. while the storyline in the 2nd one (better days) was better than the first (those left behind, i think, and boy was that story a special kind of bad. embarrassing that joss made some of the choices that he did), the inconsistent and sometimes downright shoddy artwork (why can;t anyone draw inara properly?), and a fair number of generically cheesy "comic book" moments (like book decapitating a goofy looking combat droid) make the series pretty generic and forgettable to me. basically, i'm now longer going to follow the comic series, since to me they cheapen the special quality of firefly and serenity by reducing it to a mediocre comic book that doesn't possess the spark of the film or series. better not to continue stories of the 'verse if they are substandard. heck, i'd much rather read fanfic of the quality of that recent story written by that best-selling ny times author (stephen brust or something?), since that captured imo some of what made the film and series so special.

anyone else find the comics disappointing and better skipped?

i should point out that i am not opposed to comics per se, since i enjoyed fray, and have enjoyed other comics/graphic novels when done well (such as v for vendetta)
the fact that the firefly comics are spin offs from the series and movie, where much of the appeal lay in seeing the actors onscreen, might have something to do with it, since it's impossible for a comic to recreate that.

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Friday, June 27, 2008 11:36 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by pepperg:


anyone else find the comics disappointing and better skipped?



a lot of folks.

but not me.

and i thought Inara was drawn very well in Better Days. Those Left Behind has proved more rewarding with each re-read, though it definitely has flaws.

i don't see a cheapening of any sort. It's a shame the comics are so short - and that Brett obviously can't write River - but TLB showed us a whole dimension to Book - and BD has done that for Zoe. As well as the Simon/Kaylee thing.

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Friday, June 27, 2008 5:37 PM

JOLLY


Quote:

Originally posted by pepperg:

anyone else find the comics disappointing and better skipped?



Yes. I still read comics, albeit in limited numbers (currently working on Mike Carey's Lucifer series). I agree with what many have already written---Firefly just doesn't seem to translate into a decent comic. Prolly cuz the primary appeal of the show is how the actors played their characters and how those characters interacted to form a very special ensemble...

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Friday, June 27, 2008 6:21 PM

PEPPERG


yeah, i think you're right
"the magic" just isn't there on the page
though i thought stephen brust's fanfic did a fantastic job of getting into the psychology of several of the characters

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Saturday, June 28, 2008 12:56 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL


I'm enjoying the Serenity comic books. But I will agree that the special spark between characters is missing since we're not experiencing the actors chemistry.

The inner artwork is hit and miss. I wasn't pleased with Zoe or Kaylee's appearance in Better Days. Even Simon was little off. I think Buffy Season 8 has been handled reasonably well. So it's odd that the Serenity books would feel out of place. Perhaps if there was a story that lasted longer than 3 issues.

Dunno.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Saturday, June 28, 2008 11:31 PM

TRAVELER


Comics are a different medium and you have to accept that. I have not read the Firefly comics. They came out before I discovered Firefly and I just wanted to know the TV and later the film version of the Good Ship Serenity.

I am sure there are those who appreciate good comics. I have read my share and know what I like.
Marvel started Generation X in 1994 and I found it an excellent piece of work. The writing, artwork, the whole style was the best series I had ever come across. Then the names in the credits started to change and so did Generation X. It lost something that appealed to me and I finally quit reading it. Just like TV, if you start replacing the creators, the show changes.

So Firefly may not be suffering because it is in comic form, but from the people who are producing it. In different hands may it come alive. But a comic will never be live action. That does not mean it is bad. It is just different.

I am sure there are a lot of people who have seen the Spiderman films and never read a Spiderman comic. If they did they would probably feel the same as the people who don't like the Firefly comics. But Spiderman started as a comic and would never have been made into live action films if were not an excellent piece of work that has existed many years to delight several generations of comic book readers.

So I stayed away because it would be different and Joss does not work in the comic book industry, so how could he be expected to know what will work.

Now you have made me dig through my closet to pull my out my Generation X and put on my reading glasses to see Jubilation Lee with her smart mouth and yellow overcoat. Now I'm debating if I should read through them again.








http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:44 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL


Joss does work in the comic book industry. He knows what works. He knows how it works. He doesn't play the industry game that well, but I'd argue he's always had a bit of a problem with any industry game.



---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:59 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

thatweirdgirl wrote:
Sunday, June 29, 2008 07:44
Joss does work in the comic book industry.



Absolutely! The man's got quite a CV these days.

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Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:29 AM

TRAVELER


Thank you thatwierdgirl. I did not know that about Joss. I plead ignorance. Please forgive me for that. Joss certainly has a wide background.

I wonder why some people are not enjoying the comics of Firefly. As I said, I have read my share and enjoyed them. With the right people they certainly come alive for me.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Sunday, June 29, 2008 4:47 PM

STRANGEBIRD


Not so keen on the comics either. Not very big in the comic scene. Never have been, though I have a few Daredevil comics kept nicely in a box in my closet.

I felt that in both issues, few of the characters were drawn well, even without trying to compare them to the actors. I didn't like the story lines either, for the most part. All of my issues have been mentioned before so I'll refrain from taking any more time on that.

I respect the opinions of those who enjoy the comics. I don't think Joss and company should quit making them. As long as there are a group of Browncoats who love them I say keep it up. I'm a realist sometimes, when it comes to these things(Though in most matters I'm a corny romantic). Joss can't just make a withdrawal from his bank account, call everyone up and make a movie or mini-series just like that. If we get more it's a long time coming, I just hope Joss is actually planning to. I have little faith I'll enjoy his next series, Dollhouse, much. But I'll give it a shot. It seems to be in the same vein as Buffy and I didn't care for that show, nor Angel. I've watched about a dozen episodes of both. I laughed at a few lines of very Joss-like material but overall I didn't buy it. Joss is a genius, a third generation(And beside his brother the only one I can think of) film and television writer. But he isn't a god. He can't make just anything happen in the world of Hollywood and if he tries it'll take alot of time to get anything out of it.


I for one hope they'll atleast release a few "canon" novels. I'm a heavy reader and would love official fiction set in our 'verse. There are tons of fanfics out there, some very, very good and others not so much and then some inbetween.

My point is, saying Joss shouldn't make something just because you don't like it isn't fair for the folks who do. I've voiced similar feelings in the past but I like to think I've grown up a bit in the last year or so, and grown out of such childish ways of thinking.

Anyway, again I am not at all a fan of the comics. But I know enough who are to admit there must be something good about them that I'm just not of the mind or care to see. So if you don't like the comics, do what I do. Don't read them. Or buy them, for that matter. For those of you who do? Enjoy, and I'll be content enough in knowing that for atleast a few, the 'verse still lives on in that way. Though I have my own way. :^)

<--------------------<<<<-~~~~(*)~~~~->>>>-------------------->
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read" Gaius Plinius Secundus

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Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:56 PM

OPPYH


Yeah, this is why I'm shocked. Joss embraced the comic book medium a little too much. Astonishing X-men was great for the first 6 issues, and then became ....boring. And yes, Joss Whedon wrote it. Buffy comics just OK I guess. The Serenity comics are good reads, but no where near the fun of live-action.
I do enjoy comic books(just started collecting the new Star Trek series, and I am enjoying it)and I hate to say this but, Joss just doesn't make a great fit in the comic book world. When I read a comic written by Joss I usually like it, put it down and forget it. A tv show by Joss, I watch become hopelessly addicted and pray for more. See the difference? In comic books he's good, in the tv realm he is genius.
Let's hope Dollhouse does well.

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Tuesday, July 1, 2008 6:42 AM

SPACEVIKING


i love when people make threads and never return to them to see the responses.

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Tuesday, July 1, 2008 11:09 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by spaceviking:
i love when people make threads and never return to them to see the responses.



Are you suggesting that I might have started this thread and then might have not revisited it 4 or 5 times per week to view the responses? Maybe "ignorant and stupid" is what you should say when near a mirror.

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