'I'd rather not die at all.' by chrisisall

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

'I'd rather not die at all.'

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Friday, July 16, 2010 00:46
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6052
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Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:20 PM

Does Inara's fatal disease trouble you?
Would a cure have been found before the end of the series?

"I don't know..."

Will Inara star with Mal after Serenity? Has she realized that in the time she has left, Malcolm is her best choice of "companionship?"

I find that this new dimension to the Firefly 'Verse makes it all the more compelling, and sad, and happy...

Like life.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:48 PM

DMAANLILEILTT

the show ends with mal sitting next to inara on her deathbed after winning the second unification war.

just a hunch.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Tuesday, July 13, 2010 4:13 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Hell yeah it does.

First of all, which fatal disease allows one to carry on as if nothing's wrong ?

Clearly, it's not communicable. And if she isn't up to the health requirements to companion ( verb ), then word would have to get back to the Guild, and her secret would be known in due time.

So, I'm guessing it's some sort of congenital condition, not so much a disease. ( Or have we been told already ? ) I admit to being a bit fuzzy on the details, mainly as I don't WANT to know.

Even more so after losing 2 crew already.

dammit.

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Tuesday, July 13, 2010 4:16 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Even more so after losing 2 crew already.

It is a bit distressing...

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:07 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Even more so after losing 2 crew already.

It is a bit distressing...

The laughing Chrisisall

So, everyone dies, but River ? That'd be poetic. They put their lives on the line to save her life, and do. In exchange for theirs.

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Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:08 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
First of all, which fatal disease allows one to carry on as if nothing's wrong ?

Clearly, it's not communicable. And if she isn't up to the health requirements to companion ( verb ), then word would have to get back to the Guild, and her secret would be known in due time.

So, I'm guessing it's some sort of congenital condition, not so much a disease. ( Or have we been told already ? ) I admit to being a bit fuzzy on the details, mainly as I don't WANT to know.

Even more so after losing 2 crew already.

dammit.

Huntington's Disease meets all your criteria for Inara's disease. It is an incurable neurological disease, which, in early stages, is suitable for television. It is fatal. You can hide the symptoms. You can carry on with your life before symptoms are obvious. It is hereditary, so you can't give it to any but your children, which cuts out motherhood for Inara. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington's_disease

And best of all, the name Huntington's is easy to pronounce for TV audiences. A name like trinucleotide repeat disorder is too complicated for TV. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinucleotide_repeat_disorder And there may be a miracle cure that is discovered 500 years in the future.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, July 13, 2010 6:15 PM

BYTEMITE

Yeah, it's most likely a hereditary degenerative neurological disorder. Like Huntington's. Cancer been known since the ancient greeks, and there's still not cure, though we're getting closer every day. But there could be poorly understood diseases nowadays we might still not know how to fix 500 years from now, so that's not unreasonable.

I've always liked the idea that someone from the guild/alliance hospitals/ Blue Sun has been telling lies, though. It might be the medicine she's taking that's killing her, rather than the actual disease, which is probably an easier fix. :D

If she dies, it's going to trash Mal. He's almost as overprotective of her as he is Kaylee. And based on his story in Still Flying, he appears to daydream about having a normal life with her planetside somewhere, so he consciously or unconsciously has a lot of his hopes for a future pinned on her.

Mal's the main character, I think (I know people would disagree and say River, but I still think she's a MacGuffin). So if something ends his story, it ends Firefly. How much angst can one guy take? Lost his war, lost his family, lost his homeworld, soldiers he knew, members of his crew... Honestly, if Inara dies, Firefly really becomes sort of a sadist show to see how much Joss can torture Mal.

There's a chance he might not. Inara is only "dying," not "going to die," and everyone kind of expects him to go the cruelest direction possible.

Select to view spoiler:

Well, Joss was willing to give Zoe a happy ending, and Kaylee is also confirmed to have one.

So finger's crossed.

Select to view spoiler:

In Crystal, my interpretation is that there might be one more foreshadowed death, however. It's a toss up between Mal, Inara, or River. And I'm actually leaning towards River, because it's the least obvious, and because River actually collapses in the story, and is carried like a corpse past Mal's quarters. A writer doesn't establish that kind of imagery without a reason. And River says nothing about her own future, the only member of the crew she says NOTHING about, suggesting she just flat out might not have one. That, and her "running out of time" comments. There's just a lot of stuff there...

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Tuesday, July 13, 2010 6:27 PM

RIVERDANCER

I think she would ultimately die of whatever is killing her, especially if there was ever an actual relationship between her and Mal. It's Joss; couples aren't allowed to be happily ever after.

And on a nitpicky note, the quote is "I don't want to die at all." in response to Simon's "I just don't want to die on it." (in reference to the ship, with its slightly funereal name.)

HRWATPWRTCITG

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 3:50 AM

GWEK

No offense, but those of you who are thinking that Mal would end up holding Inara's hand at the end of Season Seven of FIREFLY clearly didn't watch BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER or at least didn't notice all the relationship changes that happened throughout.

Joss originally told the cast that he planned for FIREFLY to run for seven years, although he has admitted that he didn't have more than a vague plan for some of the direction. Based on his track record, I seriously doubt that he intended for Kaylee/Simon or Mal/Inara to live happily ever after.

My thinking, personally, is that it would have been SIMON at Inara's bedside. Sure, Mal might've been there, but he'd be holding hands with Kaylee, possibly knocked up with the first of a future passel of rugrats.

Mal and Kaylee, you see, are the two who will NEVER willingly leave the ship, and I suspect that over the long-term, that would draw them together.

The way I sorta see the show ending is that, long before Season Seven, Zoe has drifted away to protect her daughter. A second war has been fought and won (sort of) and social change is in the air.

But Blue Sun, the ultimate Big Bad, is still hiding in the shadows, and there has to be a final reckoning, during which BS's end game becomes apparent (searching for other human colonies, possibly to invade), Jayne dies protecting River, and Zoe returns to help save the day.

In the wind-down, Inara, pushed beyond limits due to recent events, finally succumbs to her illness/toxin/whatever, with Simon by her side. We are left with the implication that her final words will ignite Simon to rise up and become a force for social change in the 'Verse.

Meantime, Mal and Kaylee, knowing how Inara's story will end, head off on Serenity into the Great New Black that exists between their 'Verse and the next colony over. There's a great big universe out there for Firefly and the Reynolds clan to explore... not to mention the stowaway who reveals herself once their in the air--River Tam.

But I digress...

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 4:46 AM

BYTEMITE

Shipper warfare commence!

We're talking 19th century and Victorian influence, and the staying within the social circles. You think Joss is gonna uphold classism? That like characters are going to end up with like characters? I ain't seein' it, sorry. It has unfortunate implications, and is completely counter to the show's premise about subverting the establishment.

And while I've never watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I'm pretty sure that Buffy/Angel was fairly official, seeing how Buffy/Spike from what I hear didn't work out at all, and there were real issues with Angel/Cordelia of the "unholy abomination of nature Angelus demon unlocked" variety.

Dollhouse also very strongly officially ships Echo/Ballard and Victor/Sierra the whole way through.

So in Joss' show, while supporting characters often do the relationship Do-si-do, and while main characters sometimes stray from the main pairings, There are some real official couples that stay consistent throughout each series.

IMO, Mal is more likely to end up with River than he is to end up with Kaylee. Depending on how you tilt your head, you could easily argue either River or Mal are the main character, and shipping the two main opposite gender characters is an established trend in Joss' shows.

Looking at Dollhouse, Echo is a combination of both River and Inara, in that both represent female exploitation, and Ballard is clearly also a flatter version of Mal. Also if you squint at Buffy, River is a crazy tragic version of the supernaturally ass-kicking Buffy, and Inara is the Cordelia. This basic three character love-triangle arrangement is something Joss likes to write, and he comes back to it repeatedly. As such, I could imagine Mal ending up with either River or Inara. Though I don't really like storylines where an emotionally and physically traumatized wreck is "fixed" by the love of a good man (gack), I'm not blind to the possibility of eventual Mal/River.

I also think that Inara's illness kinda bends the whole thing strongly towards Mal/Inara, because otherwise he ends up looking very unsympathetic if he ditches her when she's dying.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 5:48 AM

GWEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
We're talking 19th century and Victorian influence, and the staying within the social circles. You think Joss is gonna uphold classism?

To some extent, I do, yes. More realistically, though, I don't think social class enters into the equation so much as theme and character.

The whole thing, thematically, with both the Mal/Inara and Kaylee/Simon relationships is that they list LITERALLY between worlds. Their shared home, Serenity, is a created world/family (one of Whedon's big themes) that is, quite literally, the ONLY place they can exist.

Watch the Kaylee/Simon dynamic very closely. Almost every GOOD moment they have is on the ship. Off the ship? They turn to crap. It's very, very subtle, but Joss tells us time and time again their relationship doesn't hold up when their off the ship. (I'm talking here about the SERIES, not the movie).

In terms of character, Serenity is Kaylee's River. Much as Simon will never abandon River, Kaylee will not abandon her beloved ship. Over time, the fact that both Simon and Kaylee have another "interest" would be strain on the relationship, as would the fact that Kaylee would not want to leave the ship, and Simon, inevitably, would. (Regardless of how comfortable he grows with "the Black," he's eventually going to need a life with more meaning than patching up a few brigands).

I'm not saying that Mal and Kaylee would be a love for the ages, but their shared love of Serenity is far more of a foundation for a relationship than many others have.

As with Simon and Kaylee, I don't think a Mal/Inara relationship has legs. Her lethal condition aside, each ultimately finds the other's position in life unacceptable. Mal would not want to share his love's body with others, and for all that she tries to be cosmopolitan, Inara DOES seek something more respectable than a petty thief. For their relationship to "work," one of them would have to bend knee and become something their not... and the moment that happens, they would change what the other love about them in the first place.

Mal + Inara = Doomed.

Simon + Kaylee = Doomed.

Simon + Inara? Maybe. They clearly have an affinity for one another. They gravitate to one another when in trouble, because they can rely on each other (perhaps in ways that they can't rely on Kaylee and Mal). To bring the "class" issue into it, Simon IS from a class where he could accept Inara as she is and still love her.

Again, not a love to shake the stars, but one of mutual respect and acceptance.

Quote:
That like characters are going to end up with like characters? I ain't seein' it, sorry. It has unfortunate implications, and is completely counter to the show's premise about subverting the establishment.

I think you're hanging your had too heavily on a single overarching theme and not looking closely enough at the characters. The House that Joss built is built on CHARACTER-driven stories, so that's always the core. Social mores are secondary.

Like will sometimes end up with like because a) that's human nature, and b) sometimes, that's where the characters take you.

Quote:
And while I've never watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I'm pretty sure that Buffy/Angel was fairly official, seeing how Buffy/Spike from what I hear didn't work out at all, and there were real issues with Angel/Cordelia of the "unholy abomination of nature Angelus demon unlocked" variety.

If you haven't watched BUFFY, maybe don't comment on BUFFY. I'm not sure what you mean about Buffy and Angel being "official," because they break up and have numerous relationships afterward.

Joss has stated, by the way, that Buffy was originally supposed to end up with XANDER, but that both the Buffy/Spike and Xander/Anya relationships took on lives of their own (again, CHARACTER-driven), so the original plan fell to the way side.

The comic has played with Buffy/Xander and is now playing with Buffy/Angel again... but Spike just came back into the picture, so only time will tell.

The direction of the Angel/Cordelia relationship, unfortunately, was irrevocably altered by Charisma Carpenter choosing to leave the show. If it had been allowed to run it's course... again, who knows?

Further on Buffy and Angel: Although it's possible that they're "soul mates" in some way, let's not forget that Angel's relationship with Buffy (and, indeed, with many other female characters) is founded on his relationship with Darla, and the superficial physicial similarities of the two. If you look at much of Angel's dating history, he has a very clear "type," and it stems back to Darla. Indeed, Cordelia is the one the break the mold, and the two of them are drawn together because they're both supernatural champions (ie, "like being drawn to like").

Quote:
Dollhouse also very strongly officially ships Echo/Ballard and Victor/Sierra the whole way through.

Indeed, it does, but DOLLHOUSE is only 26 episodes, which is slightly longer than a single season. Buffy is with Angel, Spike, AND Riley each for longer than that (I think). On Angel, Fred and Gunn (clearly not soulmates or intended to end up together) are together for longer than that.

Had DOLLHOUSE been a seven-year saga, we would likely have seen a very different story. Because of the early (and scheduled) cancellation, DOLLHOUSE is that rare animal that is NOT a character-driven piece by Joss, but a story-driven one.

Quote:
So in Joss' show, while supporting characters often do the relationship Do-si-do, and while main characters sometimes stray from the main pairings, There are some real official couples that stay consistent throughout each series.

See above.

Quote:
IMO, Mal is more likely to end up with River than he is to end up with Kaylee. Depending on how you tilt your head, you could easily argue either River or Mal are the main character, and shipping the two main opposite gender characters is an established trend in Joss' shows.

Personally, I discount any romantic entanglements for River because of how broken she is.

And a Mal/River relationship is especially troubling because of the father/daughter dynamic between the two.

Quote:
Looking at Dollhouse, Echo is a combination of both River and Inara, in that both represent female exploitation, and Ballard is clearly also a flatter version of Mal.

I disagree that Ballard is a variation of Mal (despite the way Penikett portrays the character, which clearly echoes Fillion's portrayal). If there's a strong analog, it's between Ballard and SIMON, especially first season.

Ballard is a talented man who throws away a promising career because he becomes obsessed with chasing down rumors that no one else believes. He dedicates his life to protecting an ethereal, essentially "broken" raven-haired girl, but finds himself distracted by the earthy, brown-haired girl-next-door.

Sound familiar? Heck, Miracle Laurie was almost cast as Kaylee, but the network didn't like her body type.

In this case, however, because they are not brother and sister, the "Simon"/"River" trajectory takes a somewhat different path, of course.

Quote:
Also if you squint at Buffy, River is a crazy tragic version of the supernaturally ass-kicking Buffy, and Inara is the Cordelia. As such, I could imagine Mal ending up with either River or Inara.

That is a heck of a lot of squinting you're doing, and I think you're looking right past some key relationships that form a thread through much of Joss's work. Virtually everything he's done on TV centers around the concept of created family, and there's key dynamic that appears in three of his four shows (not ANGEL): that of father/daughter, mentor/gifted student:

Giles/Buffy = Mal/River = Boyd/Echo

In all three pairings, a stranger ultimately accepts resposibility for training and/or protecting a younger women who is talented and damaged. While the relationships around them change, this is a pretty strong constant in the Whedonverse.

So Mal +River? I think not. That'd be bedding Daddy.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 6:13 AM

PLATONIST

Gosh, here I was thinking Inara would die from her condition, which is in her brain, and Mal would be alone, leaving him feeling like sh*t.

Kaylee, Simon, and River would feel like cr*p because she died and that’s the end of Firefly, sh*t and cr*p, but they are still flying.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 6:14 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
The whole thing, thematically, with both the Mal/Inara and Kaylee/Simon relationships is that they list LITERALLY between worlds. Their shared home, Serenity, is a created world/family (one of Whedon's big themes) that is, quite literally, the ONLY place they can exist.

Watch the Kaylee/Simon dynamic very closely. Almost every GOOD moment they have is on the ship. Off the ship? They turn to crap. It's very, very subtle, but Joss tells us time and time again their relationship doesn't hold up when their off the ship. (I'm talking here about the SERIES, not the movie).

In terms of character, Serenity is Kaylee's River. Much as Simon will never abandon River, Kaylee will not abandon her beloved ship. Over time, the fact that both Simon and Kaylee have another "interest" would be strain on the relationship, as would the fact that Kaylee would not want to leave the ship, and Simon, inevitably, would. (Regardless of how comfortable he grows with "the Black," he's eventually going to need a life with more meaning than patching up a few brigands).

I'm not saying that Mal and Kaylee would be a love for the ages, but their shared love of Serenity is far more of a foundation for a relationship than many others have.

The problem with this is you're hanging yourself with your own argument. Mal and Inara don't work off the ship, Kaylee and Simon don't work off the ship. But Mal and Kaylee work BECAUSE of the SHIP? You're essentially saying the same thing about all three couples.

Honestly, you're probably right that we don't know enough yet. If the series hadn't been canceled, there would have been time for relationships were there was no romantic chemistry at all (Mal/Kaylee, Simon/Inara, heck, maybe even Mal/Zoe if you want to go there) to develop it, so if you argue that, then any relationship at all in the show is possible, sure.

Based on the information we DO have, though, it's fairly straight forward that Kaylee digs Simon, Zoe and Wash dig each other, Mal and Inara are attracted but have issues.

There's little justification for Mal/River within the canon, and little justification for Mal/Kaylee. The only reason why I even suggested Mal/River is because River is either the main character or the second most important character.

Other than that, pairing wise there's not much we can tell about a future 7 seasons, except that Inara has a character arc where Inara's secret, which is an illness, apparently becomes important.

If you think Inara's character arc isn't going to feature Mal in some way, in a prominent role, and that Mal's going to be swept aside to disappear into the verse while Simon takes up the role of the revolutionary... I can't say I think you have much foundation for your argument. I mean, okay, it's a possibility, but it's not a projection that can be made with the information that's known.

Quote:
That is a heck of a lot of squinting you're doing, and I think you're looking right past some key relationships that form a thread through much of Joss's work. Virtually everything he's done on TV centers around the concept of created family, and there's key dynamic that appears in three of his four shows (not ANGEL): that of father/daughter, mentor/gifted student:

Giles/Buffy = Mal/River = Boyd/Echo

In all three pairings, a stranger ultimately accepts resposibility for training and/or protecting a younger women who is talented and damaged. While the relationships around them change, this is a pretty strong constant in the Whedonverse.

Book is the Giles/Boyd mentor figure. Mal is the dark anti-hero Angel, and he's Captain Daddy because he's the team dad/protector. Which yes, does imply icky stuff that I don't like either.

Though this is just as true with his "mei mei" Kaylee.

The Ballard/Echo relationship isn't at all brotherly, even in the first season. Several people lampshade that he's acting like a creepy stalker. They also suggest that he has some sort of weird hero fantasy with Echo, in which he ends up romantically involved with the girl. I really don't think this is like Simon, besides the surficial aspect that both want to free the girl. Now, maybe you might be able to argue Ballard is a creepy, stick in the mud, flat combination of Simon and Mal, which is in fitting with Echo is a combination of River and Inara.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 6:32 AM

BELDIN42

I feel that the whole Mal/Inara dynamic was going to be one of the central themes for the series. My short answer is that yes, I do believe Inara would ultimately live, and for 3 reasons.

The first would be Mal's reaction once he found out. Mal already feels protective of Inara, as we see primarily in Shindig, but in other places as well. I can see that protectiveness extending to the point where Mal tries to move Heaven and 'Verse to save her. As a side note, that strong of an emotional reaction could easily work as a catalyst to getting Mal and Inara together.

The second is that we do know a little about the medical treatment technology of the time. The custom designed organs we see in The Message hint at advancements that could be potential treatments for a genetic disease (I agree on that point), and I also agree on the point of bid, bad Blue Sun and it's experimental technology and resources being out there. Who know what they've got locked up in their vaults? (Oh, wait, The Operative might have a pretty good idea. But that's another discussion)

The third is admittedly a stretch. Up until this point, all the relationships Joss has had in his series that I can think of have had a tragic ending. Since he like to surprise his fans with unexpected things, I feel like he was saving a happy ending as the surprise.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:15 AM

GWEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
The problem with this is you're hanging yourself with your own argument. Mal and Inara don't work off the ship, Kaylee and Simon don't work off the ship. But Mal and Kaylee work BECAUSE of the SHIP? You're essentially saying the same thing about all three couples.

Not at all. You've missed a key component: Mal and Kaylee won't ever want to leave Serenity. They are both, from everything we know, content to live out their days there.

Not true with Simon; not true with Inara.

Yes, any of the relationships CAN work as long as both parties are willing to spend the rest of their days living according to Mal's rules. Simon and Inara will not be.

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Honestly, you're probably right that we don't know enough yet. If the series hadn't been canceled, there would have been time for relationships were there was no romantic chemistry at all (Mal/Kaylee, Simon/Inara, heck, maybe even Mal/Zoe if you want to go there) to develop it, so if you argue that, then any relationship at all in the show is possible, sure.

I agree that any dynamic would be possible after 7 seasons. Using BtVS as an example, there's no possible way that someone could have speculated that during Season Seven Buffy would be knockin' boots with a vampire who wasn't Angel, Xander would be shacking up with a demon, and Willow would be in a lesbian relationship with a potential slayer.

I'm sure the credits would look completely different by the end, so there would be whole new characters we're not taking into consideration... but based on the evidence we have NOW, I'm making my best guesses.

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Based on the information we DO have, though, it's fairly straight forward that Kaylee digs Simon, Zoe and Wash dig each other, Mal and Inara are attracted but have issues.

You are correct on all this. It is equally clear that Kaylee and Simon have serious issues that they're ignoring.

Quote:
There's little justification for Mal/River within the canon, and little justification for Mal/Kaylee.

I agree that there is little justification for Mal/Kaylee based on events... but if you look at the characters closely, the foundation is there. Would it be used? I don't know. But I do know that during the first season of FRIENDS, I used to ask why they were focussing on Ross and Rachel when, in fact Monica and Chandler were clearly a stronger couple who should be together. People thought the notion was ridiculous at the time.

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The only reason why I even suggested Mal/River is because River is either the main character or the second most important character.

No offense, but that reasoning is kind of weak tea.

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Other than that, pairing wise there's not much we can tell about a future 7 seasons, except that Inara has a character arc where Inara's secret, which is an illness, apparently becomes important.

Which would, inevitably, draw her and Simon closer together as he struggles to save her. :)

I'm of the mind that Simon is very "project-driven." Yes, he loves River, but he also loves that her needing him gives him a project to work on, a sense of self-worth, and a way to utilize his abilities.

As River gains indepedence, that will be an open wound for him, and I suspect he would jump at the chance to play white knight again and have a new project to work on.

Quote:
If you think Inara's character arc isn't going to feature Mal in some way, in a prominent role, and that Mal's going to be swept aside to disappear into the verse while Simon takes up the role of the revolutionary... I can't say I think you have much foundation for your argument.

Again, your mis-reading what I've said.

On a romantic level, I suspect that Mal and Inara will have a wonderful and tempestuous affair. Could be that they're even soul mates of a sort. I just think that, in the long term, their relationship will burn itself out.

On a social level, yes, a FULLY expect Mal to be swept aside and disappear in the larger 'Verse. Because that's exactly what HE wants, and that's exactly what Joss has said the show is about (the people that history steps on).

Don't for a minute that that Mal will be celebrated as "the hero of Miranda." He'll remain anonymous and never rewarded for his efforts. The movie begins with the crew in desperate measures, barely able to put food on the table--and, guess what?--they don't make a dime through their actions, so when the movie ends, they're in exactly the same place... Perhaps worse, unless the Alliance has filled the gas tanks.

Mal is a hero on a PERSONAL level, sure, but has no desire to be a hero on a social level (or, indeed, even really a part of any society that is not of his own making).

Simon, on the other hand, is a talented genius who was raised to see the strengths of the Alliance worlds but has grown to understand the power of independence from his time on Serenity. If he can marry those two viewpoints, he creates a powerful and compelling worldview... and is just respectable enough to be the guy to bring it to the masses.

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Book is the Giles/Boyd mentor figure.

You are mistaken. Book is a mentor to Mal. That makes him, in the constructed family, the grandfather (just as he is LITERALLY labelled in the pilot).

That's a completely different role than the father figure role occuppied by Giles (almost literally, when he sleeps with Buffy's mom), Boyd, and Mal.

Book has no clear analog in either BtVS or DOLLHOUSE. Indeed, to try to draw a complete map among the three families is a mistake, because each is unique... although, as I've said, centered around the father/daughter dynamic.

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Mal is the dark anti-hero Angel, and he's Captain Daddy because he's the team dad/protector.

Again, I respectfully disagree. As with Book, Mal's role in the constructed family is LITERALLY spelled out (this time, in SAFE).

The only clear analog between Mal and Angel is that they are both tormented by their pasts, but how they are tortured, and how each choses to deal with their pasts, is radically different.

Further, whereas Mal is a confident and inspiring leader, Angel (of BtVS) is a mistrusted outsider with secrets. If anything, Angel is closer to BOOK OR JAYNE than to Mal!

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Though this is just as true with his "mei mei" Kaylee. While "mei mei" in Chinese can sometimes in poetry be used to refer to a concubine/lover/prostitute, I'm pretty sure this is NOT what Whedon intends with this.

Huh?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:23 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Not at all. You've missed a key component: Mal and Kaylee won't ever want to leave Serenity. They are both, from everything we know, content to live out their days there.

Not true: The still flying book has Mal fantasizing about giving up his gun and settling on a planet somewhere with Inara.

Also not true: in Better Days, Kaylee's dream is to start a mechanics workshop/factory in the core.

Quote:
Not true with Simon; not true with Inara.

Not NOT true with Inara. You think maybe the three times she says she doesn't want to leave Serenity, and that she loved the ship from the moment she saw her, that maybe she MEANT it?

The only reason she does leave is because of Mal, and that's arguably because of her secret.

Quote:
Yes, any of the relationships CAN work as long as both parties are willing to spend the rest of their days living according to Mal's rules. Simon and Inara will not be.

Ehm, no, because this precludes the possibility that the characters, including Mal, COULD change (or try to, with difficulties and stepbacks). Granted you don't want character change to be ridiculous, obviously they must remain recognizably the same character, but advancing, growing, solving problems? That's why we watch characters, not to see them make the same mistakes again and again.

Quote:
No offense, but that reasoning is kind of weak tea.

No kidding, and that's why I'm not a Mal/River shipper. But we're discussing storyline potential based on what's present in the show.

What basis does Mal Kaylee have? She kisses him once on the cheek in an affectionate daughterly or sisterly fashion and says she loves her captain. What basis does Mal River have? He has a conversation with her about love in the movie, and takes her after she was triggered, when he probably should have left her. It's disturbing to put River in a relationship when she's so broken, yet Joss did just that with Echo, and yes, I hated that pairing for exactly that reason.

My feeling is neither pairing has much basis, and both are about equal. I could be wrong about Mal/River though. I don't think I'm wrong about Mal/Kaylee.

Could this change? Sure. Is the fact that it's merely a possibility any indication that it would, or that it would work out? Not necessarily. Like your Chandler Monica example, every character eventually got with every OTHER character in that show (or nearly so, in a case of a near event with Ross and Phoebe). You predicted they would get together, you didn't (and couldn't) have predicted they would work out.

Also the Ross/Rachel thing was present from the beginning, so that's a pretty good bet it would go to the end. Kinda like Ballard/Echo, and kinda like Buffy/Angel (which is still a prominent pairing, isn't it?)

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Which would, inevitably, draw her and Simon closer together as he struggles to save her. :)

I'm of the mind that Simon is very "project-driven." Yes, he loves River, but he also loves that her needing him gives him a project to work on, a sense of self-worth, and a way to utilize his abilities.

As River gains indepedence, that will be an open wound for him, and I suspect he would jump at the chance to play white knight again and have a new project to work on.

I disagree here. Simon isn't so focused on River because she's a "project." That would make him no different than Doctor Mathias and others more interested in using River. I mean this is just creepy, and suggests Simon has no interest in River as a person, only someone to try to "fix" to alleviate his boredom. Hell, that makes him WORSE than Mathias.

And then to say that THAT is a good basis to establish a romantic relationship on, with Inara, as another non-person project he has no emotional investment in?

Uh, no. I don't agree. If he has an interest in fixing River, it's because she is his SISTER. Likewise, if he were to have an interest in fixing Inara, it would be because Inara is a FRIEND. OR a lover.

Now, I don't disagree that the doctor patient connection is something that would possibly bring together Simon and Inara as a pairing. In fact, this would be an excellent source of drama for a love triangle between them and Mal. Elements of this already exist in the show, with Mal suspicious of the time Simon spends with Inara, because they are very similar. Imagine also the arguments as Mal tries to assert his place in Inara's treatment, and disagrees with Simon over what to do. It could either be a real threat to Mal's dominance/chances of a relationship with Inara, or all in his head, but that's some good drama.

But I find your thinking that Mal will just step back and accept this, because he has Kaylee he can settle for instead... Um, what? Basis? This seems out of character for Mal.

I find Mal/Kaylee alarming. He's shown as being able and willing to hold his temper around Kaylee, but how long bottling it up could he go? And if he can't bottle it up anymore, he blows up. Everyone has their limits, and I think Mal might just snap.

I'm concerned Mal could just start dominating Kaylee, I'm concerned that Kaylee's deference to Mal won't be able to help Mal with the PTSD related psychological issues he has, and I'm concerned that Kaylee couldn't get the attention and adoration she wants from Mal, 'cause he's a brooder. Despite their potentially similar backgrounds, I don't see this pairing meeting any of their emotional and psychological needs.

I see Kaylee as working better with either Simon, once his sister is better and takes less of his time. Jayne isn't really a good choice for Kaylee's emotional needs, because he's not a caring or sensitive person deep down. Jayne isn't becoming more caring or sensitive as the show goes on, he's becoming more loyal, so this isn't part of his character arc.

Mal and Simon are caring and sensitive, so I see Simon/Kaylee and Mal/Kaylee as slightly more likely than Kaylee/Jayne. And I see Simon/Kaylee working better than Mal/Kaylee, because Simon and Kaylee, despite the differences in their social background, would be approaching the pairing as equals. It wouldn't be just one of them making all the decisions. Much more fulfilling.

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On a social level, yes, a FULLY expect Mal to be swept aside and disappear in the larger 'Verse. Because that's exactly what HE wants, and that's exactly what Joss has said the show is about (the people that history steps on).

Don't for a minute that that Mal will be celebrated as "the hero of Miranda." He'll remain anonymous and never rewarded for his efforts. The movie begins with the crew in desperate measures, barely able to put food on the table--and, guess what?--they don't make a dime through their actions, so when the movie ends, they're in exactly the same place... Perhaps worse, unless the Alliance has filled the gas tanks.

You're making an assumption here about what I believe. Actually, I agree with you about Mal, and the Miranda broadwave. Of course he wouldn't become a hero, who would know he sent it? And if he did, isn't the Alliance more like to spin him into a villain?

But I DON'T agree that Simon is more willing than Mal to become a hero. They're both reluctant, they both have choices thrust upon them. Simon's a non-action guy (except in the movie, but he had help then from more action oriented sorts), and Mal's world weary. Neither one is likely to become a crusader. But Mal is slightly more likely because 1) he's crusaded against social injustice before, 2) he's the one who lead the team to broadwave the Miranda message, 3) there was that whole thing with Book encouraging him to take up the cause. Simon didn't get any of that so Mal's still the protagonist in the story simply because of the focus. Towards the end of the movie, Mal starts acting like a mentor towards River, but that really wasn't present in the rest of the series, and being Mal is still in the designated main character role, that's really more like "the hero takes on a young side kick" than "the mentor passing on his quests and the mantle."

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:29 AM

PLATONIST

GWEK, you are basing your speculations on unfounded assumptions, there is nothing in canon to suggest that Mal WON'T ever leave Serenity (see Take the Sky) or Kaylee (see Better Days) or that Inara wants to leave Serenity (see Shindig) and how miserable she was when she had to leave. Or that Simon CAN leave Serenity, he’s still a fugitive.

Since we have only half a season, a movie, some short stories, and a few comics it’s probably best to stick to canon when speculating, otherwise, as Byte says, any of these characters could be paired together for exploration, as they so often are in fanfic, see Rayne and Mal/Simon for a plethora on that.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 11:55 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Does Inara's fatal disease trouble you?
Would a cure have been found before the end of the series?

"I don't know..."

Will Inara star with Mal after Serenity? Has she realized that in the time she has left, Malcolm is her best choice of "companionship?"

I find that this new dimension to the Firefly 'Verse makes it all the more compelling, and sad, and happy...

Like life.

Ok,
lets pretend for a moment that I know what your talking about. What are you talking about? Did I miss something in the series?

----------------------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 12:58 PM

BYTEMITE

Nope, it's fairly recent, like sometime last year at Dragon-Con, and then kind of confirmed by Joss and followed up in the short stories in Still Flying.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22301

Select to view spoiler:

Speaking of “Firefly” secrets, Morena Baccarin had recently spilled the beans at a convention that her character Inara was suffering from a terminal illness, which Whedon went on to reluctantly confirm.

Interview with Joss:

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Whedon-Buffy-Angel-1003015.aspx

Transcript:

http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/70109.html

Select to view spoiler:

When can we expect a Serenity 2 movie; and if never, can you tell us what Inara's secret was?

I'm not giving up Inara's secret - although I believe Morena has at conventions. Thanks, darling.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:00 PM

BYTEMITE

I've wondered for a while if this "leak" wasn't a set up, though. Why didn't Joss deny it? What was up with the kid who asked the question, and why would Joss tell THEM?

I wonder if Joss and Morena discussed it, and decided "let's drop something misleading for the fans to grab on to and generate interest."

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 2:18 PM

BORIS

lets just hope its not something really nasty like spinocerebellar degeneration...had a patient with that and its really horrible to watch someone (particularly when they haven't had a chance to live long enough) lose every ability piece by piece and then get to a point where others are making decisions for them...it sucks!

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 2:18 PM

BORIS

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 2:27 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

You're an "up" person, Boris ;)

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 9:33 PM

BORIS

Apologies much..it's still weighing on my mind. Any talk of degnerative disorders upsets me.

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:31 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Inara's fatal disease could create a happy ending for the seventh season of Firefly. The entire crew, except Inara, is emigrating to Earth to escape the Alliance. Inara is going into suspended animation while nano-bots work for many decades repairing her. It's ultra sci-fi! Without suspended animation, Inara would die before she is cured.

For the trip to Earth the Serenity crew, just like Inara, will also be in suspended animation. River brilliantly suggests that Inara come with them.

“Much better than going nowhere, sleeping in a cold storage room of an old hospital. Inara, don't you want to wake up surrounded by your friends?” River uses her big, brown, expressive eyes. “Come with me if you want to live.”

Inara asks Simon. He confirms it is possible to continue Inara's treatment on a starship.

Jayne gets crude. “Inara sleeps with all of us. What do you think, Cap'n?”

“I think I'm putting you out in the vacuum soon as your eyes close. You might want to stay awake the entire trip.”

The Captain turns to Inara. “Could be fun. See the Grand Canyon. Eiffel Tower. Taj Mahal. Sydney Opera House. The tourist traps.” Inara accepts the Captain's offer.

That's my idea of a happy ending. And because it is an open ending, Firefly could continue in novels written by Joss Whedon on Earth, about Earth. Double rainbow.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 8:30 AM

BYTEMITE

...Yeah, okay. It would be fun.

I've never really liked Earth that was storylines because of my understanding that Earth was completely trashed, with either polluted fiery rain or nuclear weapons (interpretations could go either way).

But I guess people have Earth recover from complete environment decimation after only a few years/centuries in lots of fictional stories.

There could be storylines about them trying to make contact with any survivors, and horrible mutant species (Bad Horse, anyone?), and what's more frontier and western than going off into the sunset to settle in some brave new land, away from the threat of Alliance control (and the Pax)?

It's not how I would end Firefly, but the more I hear that idea of yours, two, the more I like it.

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Friday, July 16, 2010 12:46 AM

BORIS

Cool notion Two :-)

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