GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Joss' fascination with torture ?

POSTED BY: THESOMNAMBULIST
UPDATED: Monday, December 27, 2004 07:15
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 22217
PAGE 2 of 3

Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:17 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Some fascinating points of view.

However I do think the torture scenes have been taken out of context though and applied to real life, and removed from the confines of TV.

I enjoy all those shows depicting 'a kind of torture' because quite frankly they're nothing like realistic.

I'm only imagining here but in my minds eye I can visualise far more horrific images of horror and torture merely from the point of view of my own personal fears.

It's this that I was trying to provoke. Wether or not Joss has some sort of personal fear of torture. To have produced three shows over , what a ten year span, and to have included in all three a significant torture scene, interested me.

Kinda like when you watch enough Hitchcock you become aware of his obsessions, namely the suspense, the leading blonde who is beautiful, tragic and made to suffer physically, and mentally, all these punctuated with his keen eye for the perfect murder.

A pattern immerges in an artists' work and I was wondering in this case wether for Joss it was torture. But it could be a league of things, as was said: Birthdays !

As to wether watching a show with torture in it makes you unbalanced - personally I think not. It's just not real enough to evoke those sorts of emotions... I mean it's a glass-fronted box sat in the corner of the room.

Of course that depends on how well you can remove yourself from a topic in a TV show to a topic it relates to in the real world. Personally I avoid watching the news because it's portrayal of violence is far more disturbing, not for it's realism per se, but more for the manner to which it is glossed up for us. (3d animated graphics simulate what may have happened in the event of an accident) - to me that's creepy. But I digress.

I'm impressed by the manner in which this has been debated. It's good to see we can all express differeing opinions without loosing our composure, and remaining civil.

I'd have loved to carry on here but I am a work, and I must get back to it. Apologies for undefined ideas and notions.

TheSomnambulist



www.cirqus.com

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 4:50 AM

GORRAMREAVERS


"I'm impressed by the manner in which this has been debated. It's good to see we can all express differeing opinions without loosing our composure, and remaining civil."

Yeah but reading this thread has left me feeling like I dont want to post here for a while. It was taking a strange turn yesterday and I was curious to see what posts were added since. I dunno...but I am only comming back to this site for news and such. I feel like if I said "I like War Stories" than I would have to defend myself. That isnt why I come to this place.

"..it is my very favorite gun."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:04 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Hey Gorramreavers

Sorry you feel this way. Personally I don't see you have to defend yourself for liking 'War Stories'

I aint judging you, or anyone else for that matter - so if it means anything you can always shoot the breeze with me.

On a side not The Train Job also had images of torture; when Niska opens the door to reveal his nephew hanging upside down! That's surely just as violent isn't it? Yet none seem to be concerned with this? It doesn't bother me I must admit - but I'm wondering how the boundaries of acceptability are drawn?

Anyone wish to clarify?

Meantime Gorramreavers, I hope you continue to post.

TheSomnambulist


www.cirqus.com

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:21 AM

GORRAMREAVERS


Thanks THESOMNAMBULIST,
I was lurking for a min to see if anyone responded to my post. :) My post had nothing to do with what you posted before. I have always enjoyed reading what you have to say for that matter.

Im not going to get into specifics or point fingers..I just didnt like how I felt about reading some of the thread. No biggie...carry on.


"..it is my very favorite gun."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:41 AM

JENCHRISSYM


I kind of agree with Gorramreavers, I felt a little defensive after I posted above, but apparently I did not explain myself indepth enough. I thank Rabit and Maugwai for clarifying my point, I agree with basically all they said. I am not taking it personally, but I was surprised at how my love for an episode was taken so badly! I do not revel in torture but I did like seeing how the characters each handled their situations and how the crew knew what was going on and were willing to risk it to save their own. And Purplebelly, in your reply to me you mentioned a reversed scene and your fears were correct, I have no idea what you were referring to.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 6:26 AM

REEQUEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Quote:

Originally posted by ReeQueen:
... why else would you mention "European sensibility" as if there was such a thing?), which I think is bloody ridiculous, to tell you the truth.

Quote:

sensibility: peculiar susceptibility to a pleasurable or painful impression (as from praise or a slight) -- often used in plural
Used in this thread to emphasise that the opinion is not based on a moral stance alone. The choice of adjective is explained elsewhere; it is an acknowledgement that sensibility may vary with education and experience.



Okay, let me try this:

Sensibility (dictionary definition): 1. The ability to feel or perceive. 2. a) Keen intellectual perception: the sensibility of a painter to color. b) Mental or emotional responsiveness toward something, such as the feelings of another. 3. Receptiveness to impression, whether pleasant or unpleasant; acuteness of feeling. Often used in the plural: “The sufferings of the Cuban people shocked our sensibilities” (George F. Kennan). 4. Refined awareness and appreciation in matters of feeling. 5. The quality of being affected by changes in the environment.

Which of these definitions do you mean? I have my own perspective, which means I think you're referring to def. #3 - what you have implied by saying "those of us with European sensibilities" (to paraphrase) is that you, and others from your geographical cohort, have sensibilities that those who don't share your geographical location do not share. I find this to be a form of geographical snobbery which, given the vast amount of information any individual can pick up from many different sources, is a little insular. You may not be judging, per se, but there is a sneaking suspicion that you find yourself, and your sensibility, just that much better than those of us who enjoy War Stories. Which, again, a bit silly to base such an opinion of us on a single episode of television.

I am perfectly aware of my inability to be concise, please bear with me....

Naturally, everyone has perspectives and opinions based on education and experience, however, I would not propose that everyone who lives, say, in Salt Lake City, Utah, has the same "sensibility" as I do, because I tend to be unusual in that I'm a liberal that's so far to the left of most liberals, I should be standing on the right hand of Attila the Hun. There is no such thing as a "Utah" sensibility, although (I admit) there may be such a thing as a "Mormon" sensibility. Breakdown by religion is much more accurate than mere physical location, and even then, pshaw.

Despite my argument, though, I do understand what you're trying to say. I just don't agree, or, really, like it that much.

So. I watch the History Channel a lot. And I always watch the history of torture shows, not to mention Wild West Tech and it's episode on hangings. I admit it, I like history and all that entails. Sign me up for the S&M Thursday night meetings! ;-D

"Today we get to meet the real you." Niska - War Stories

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 6:41 AM

GORRAMREAVERS


Quote:

[\B]I find this to be a form of geographical snobbery which, given the vast amount of information any individual can pick up from many different sources, is a little insular. You may not be judging, per se, but there is a sneaking suspicion that you find yourself, and your sensibility, just that much better than those of us who enjoy War Stories. Which, again, a bit silly to base such an opinion of us on a single episode of television.




Thanks for saying this ReeQueen, part of what I was getting at before.

"..it is my very favorite gun."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 7:24 AM

ODDNESS2HER


What Joss is obsessed with is power.
To me, the point of torture scenes is to show how the "victim" can avoid complete powerlessness by making jokes in the face of someone who seeks to eradicate his/her humanity.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 7:44 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by ReeQueen:
Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Quote:

sensibility: peculiar susceptibility to a pleasurable or painful impression (as from praise or a slight) -- often used in plural



Which of these definitions do you mean?

The definition in my original which is Merriam-Webster. You quote my original, but appear not to have read it. If you are asking me to choose another, I decline.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 7:51 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by ReeQueen:
I find this to be a form of geographical snobbery which, given the vast amount of information any individual can pick up from many different sources, is a little insular.

Please follow the direction to elsewhere in this thread contained in my original. In addtion to an explanation of the choice of adjective, you will find a reply from a UK resident who fully approves of the depiction of torture as entertainment.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 7:54 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by ReeQueen:
I am perfectly aware of my inability to be concise, please bear with me....

I'm afraid zoid will be jealous that I even read a reply that exceeds twenty five lines. More especially as you seem not to have read my short original. So, I'd better stop

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 8:16 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by ReeQueen:
And I always watch the history of torture shows, not to mention Wild West Tech and it's episode on hangings.

Except that I can't resist this one. Does this sort of TV exist, or are you being ironic across the whole paragraph? The History Channel doesn't extend its reach to Scilly Sussex; one of those geographical things, I expect.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 8:29 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by jenchrissym:
And Purplebelly, in your reply to me you mentioned a reversed scene and your fears were correct, I have no idea what you were referring to.

I am happy for you that this so. Sorry if I was a little harsh, but I was hoping to flush out some responses

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 9:23 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Quote:

Originally posted by teraph:
This show is a drama. Bad things are going to happen. In this case, really bad things.

There appears to be a consensus that the depiction of torture is acceptable entertainment. Is the level of violence which is acceptable dependent on the characters involved? Would Zoe and Kaylee have been acceptable victims?



While acknowledging that this thread is about torture, I wonder why the apparent moral outrage from you specifically about torture? In the course of less than a full season, everyone onboard Serenity has been shot or shot at, knocked out, stabbed, beaten, threatened and bound, bombed, held at gunpoint, etc. Was having Kaylee shot or Inara slapped less violent somehow than having Mal and Wash strapped to a metal rack receiving some un-named and rather vague torture?



"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:07 AM

REEQUEEN


Gorramreavers said:
Quote:

Thanks for saying this ReeQueen, part of what I was getting at before.


Ta. ;-D There has been a lot of good discussion here, which I enjoy. I would hope that you don't continue to be too dismayed to continue participating, because I've enjoyed what you've had to say. While I, too, come to these various boards for news on Serenity, I'm easily distracted by bright and shiny (at least, metaphorically!) things and am thus tempted to rant a bit.

That being said - I'm sorry if I'm repeating what others have said in a different way, but there does seem to be some sort of miscommunication that (whether or not it is deliberate I cannot guess) causes me a little frustration. To follow PurpleBelly's example, the reasons why will be continued in following posts....heh....

"Today we get to meet the real you." Niska - War Stories

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 12:06 PM

ANKHAGOGO


Man, I wish I'd gotten here before! But I didn't, so alot of my thoughts have already been posted by other people, so I'll try not to repeat.

Just for the record, I don't have a problem with War Stories, but here's the question-- is physical torture worse than mental? I noticed quite some time ago that Whedon does seem to looove torture scenes, but the physical torture is just an occasional thing. However, at least one character is put through the psychological wringer in every episode of Buffy, Angel, or Firefly. River is practically the poster child for Psychological Wringer, and Mal's just a-seethin' with trauma. True, it's drama, and you gotta have some traumatics with it, but Whedon's characters get kicked in the teeth all the time, and in extremely harsh ways. What's the limit on that kind of torture? Because it
is torture -- River daily suffers more mentally than Mal or Wash did physically in just one episode. Heck, I believe the word "tortured" has been applied to her, and Mal, more than once. This isn't bothersome?

Personally, I tend to find the mental more upsetting that the physical -- well, not "upsetting", per se, but "affecting". I worry more about the characters' states of minds than their health, perhaps because you can see the effect of physical torture, but with mental, you're always guessing the worst. I can see Mal's body has healed up from Niska's rough treatment, but in Trash, when Inara starts to point out that he hasn't really looked for work since.....she trails off, but in my head, I'm finishing the sentence "...since Niska tortured them. Of course he hasn't; the man killed him, and he's a little shook up", and then I'm all off on worrying about how well Mal's sleeping, etc., etc. I would say that was metaphorical, but it's really not. I find that type of thing more affecting--characters dealing with their psychological reactions to the situation.

Or is mental torture less bothersome (if it is)because of what I've just said? Because you don't have the effects right there in black and blue on the person's face?



"I know your name, jackass!"

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 12:29 PM

REEQUEEN


Hmmm....I don't understand why someone would imply that posts longer than twenty-five lines would somehow be less worth reading than shorter comments. I usually judge what I read by what is written (and sometimes by whom it is written, 'cause some folks - not excluding myself, natch - can bore to tears), not by length, but perhaps I'm in the minority?

I find serial posts both annoying and irritating. That's just me, and doesn't mean I won't read 'em. I just find them unnecessary (and I kick myself when I do it).

PurpleBelly wrote:
Quote:

Having European sensibilities, I genuinely do not understand the majority audience in this case.


This is where you first mention "European sensibilities" in this thread. To which

Hotpoint asked:
Quote:

Sorry to possibly go O/T on this one but what do you mean by "European sensibilities" in this context because I'm European and not following you here at all?


And Marya made the point that:

Quote:

Ditto that Hotpoint, you just beat me to it. I am European and I don't get it either. Dying to know what "European sensibilities" are. I didn't think we had many left. How are they different from American ones (which I assume you must compare them to)?


Which I think makes my point that your use of an all-encompassing phrase such as "European sensibilities" is a bit of a stretch.

Here is your definition:

PurpleBelly
Quote:

regardless of domicile, I have the sensibilities of a middle-aged pinko-liberal of moderate education without a TV


Nice backpedalling, I give it an 8.5. Only after two others in your general geographical location had registered queries regarding your use of the phrase in question, do you address the issue. On the other hand, with the exception of not having a tv, and possibly not being the same gender as you (I don't know, I'm not as psychic as I'd like to be), I can claim the same qualities of pinko-ness, liberal-ness, and middle-aged-ness. Which is why it is so hard for me to fully understand your insistence in (seemingly) judging people who like War Stories as somehow a group of sadists who get off on the depiction of torture.

Hotpoint:
Quote:

I cannot really be said to speak on behalf of three quarters of a billion Europeans but personally I do not object to "torture as entertainment"* specifically because I am a Liberal and therefore believe there should be no limits of freedom as long as the exercise of that freedom does not infringe upon the liberty of others.

* simulated torture of course



I agree. I absolutely believe in free speech, even unto the expression of things I find hurtful and hateful. I personally like to know what the bastards are thinking, and where they are.

I'm sure I've gone past my allotted twenty-five lines, now. Is anyone still reading?

PurpleBelly:
Quote:

The definition in my original which is Merriam-Webster. You quote my original, but appear not to have read it. If you are asking me to choose another, I decline.


Which differs not in substance from the definition I quoted from Dictionary.com. I think what happened was that I was writing my post on the definition when you posted yours, which therefore showed up before my post, and thus I did not even see your post until this afternoon. I suppose that's really my bad, but I am disinclined to take the blame for this one. File it under Stuff Happens.

I wouldn't dream of asking you to pick another definition. Only you can know what you really mean, I was merely making a guess as to what your intention was in the original post.

PurpleBelly:
Quote:

Except that I can't resist this one. Does this sort of TV exist, or are you being ironic across the whole paragraph? The History Channel doesn't extend its reach to Scilly Sussex; one of those geographical things, I expect.


Yes, the History Channel has a show it repeats every several months on the history of torture, complete with visuals of torture implements and descriptions (with illustrations, no re-enactments) on how they were used. We don't have much irony in Utah, so I have to ration mine. It's probably why I'm not that good at it.

PurpleBelly:
Quote:

Please follow the direction to elsewhere in this thread contained in my original. In addtion to an explanation of the choice of adjective, you will find a reply from a UK resident who fully approves of the depiction of torture as entertainment.


I apologize for not following directions. I seldom do, and that's just one of my better qualities. Although you seem to think I hadn't been paying attention, I actually have. I don't, however, believe that you pointing out someone from the UK who disagrees with your usage actually makes your argument. I'm also not favourable towards your language in stating that this same person "fully approves" of what you deem the "depiction of torture as entertainment." It's been said, many times, by different people, that the depiction of torture is not what they find entertaining, but the story. There is a difference, even if you are not able to see it.

Now, I've managed to bore myself, which means I've put several people to sleep. I apologize, unreservedly, for any ennui I might've caused!

"Today we get to meet the real you." Niska - War Stories

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:00 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by ReeQueen:
Here is your definition:

PurpleBelly
Quote:

regardless of domicile, I have the sensibilities of a middle-aged pinko-liberal of moderate education without a TV


Nice backpedalling, I give it an 8.5.

Well, no and no. The conditional phrase it may be, omitted from your quote, means that this is not a definition but a conjecture. No backpedalling. My reply goes on to invite contributions to more closely identify the demographic of the entertained

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:03 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by ReeQueen:
I think what happened was that I was writing my post on the definition when you posted yours, which therefore showed up before my post, and thus I did not even see your post until this afternoon. I suppose that's really my bad, but I am disinclined to take the blame for this one. File it under Stuff Happens.

I wouldn't dream of asking you to pick another definition. Only you can know what you really mean, I was merely making a guess as to what your intention was in the original post.

My original is time-stamped Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 08:44. Your reply, which quotes my orginal , is time-stamped Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 16:26.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:04 PM

GORRAMREAVERS


31 M

Maine, USA

ReeQueen


"..it is my very favorite gun."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:13 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by ReeQueen:

Hotpoint:
Quote:

I cannot really be said to speak on behalf of three quarters of a billion Europeans but personally I do not object to "torture as entertainment"* specifically because I am a Liberal and therefore believe there should be no limits of freedom as long as the exercise of that freedom does not infringe upon the liberty of others.

* simulated torture of course



I agree. I absolutely believe in free speech, even unto the expression of things I find hurtful and hateful. I personally like to know what the bastards are thinking, and where they are.

...

I'm also not favourable towards your language in stating that this same person "fully approves" of what you deem the "depiction of torture as entertainment."

Hotpoint appears to approve, you seem to agree, then disagee.
You're right - in as much as I'm bored. Can we have some more posts from people telling us they find torture exciting and that they're very nice people?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:20 PM

HOTPOINT


There is a difference in implied tone between my own words "do not object to" and your spin that I "approve" of torture as entertainment.

Toleration of something for artistic reasons is not the same as enthusiastic ringing endorsement of that concept on general principle.


...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:22 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by ReeQueen:
Yes, the History Channel has a show it repeats every several months on the history of torture, complete with visuals of torture implements and descriptions (with illustrations, no re-enactments) on how they were used.

It's a shame it would be off-topic, because feed-back on the level of interest induced by the History Channel would be instructive; not very informative without re-enactments, I suppose.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:26 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
There is a difference in implied tone between my own words "do not object to" and your spin that I "approve" of torture as entertainment.

Toleration of something for artistic reasons is not the same as enthusiastic ringing endorsement of that concept on general principle.

There's difference between approve(to accept as satisfactory) and endorse (to express support or approval of publicly and definitely). I spy a kettle

EDITED: to aid the lexicographically challenged; I was originally too polite to mention it

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:31 PM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
And there's difference between approve and endorse. I spy a kettle



Nice try but it was the tone of your post that equated the notion of acceptance with approval at the level of endorsement. If you don't think it does you need to read your own words more carefully.

EDITED TO ADD - Please don't edit your posts without announcing you have done so. It's bad nettiquette

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:36 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Nice try but it was the tone of your post that equated the notion of acceptance with approval at the level of endorsement. If you don't think it does you need to read your own words more carefully.


Quote:

you will find a reply from a UK resident who fully approves of the depiction of torture as entertainment
Must be a problem with the dialect
Anyone want to talk about Joss and torture?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:49 PM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Must be a problem with the dialect



You think "fully approves" doesn't indicate a somewhat greater endorsement than just "approves" or "accepts" would?

EDITED - To remove a double negative

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:54 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
I cannot really be said to speak on behalf of three quarters of a billion Europeans but personally I do not object to "torture as entertainment"* specifically because I am a Liberal and therefore believe there should be no limits of freedom as long as the exercise of that freedom does not infringe upon the liberty of others.
...
* simulated torture of course

Seems non-empty to me

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:01 PM

MAUGWAI


Okay, Purplebelly, let's all get it straight on just how morally superior you really are. I gather then, that you find each of the following items offensive?

1) When Vincent Vega shoots Marvin in Pulp Fiction
2) When Austin Powers squashes a simple henchman with a steam roller
3) The entirety of Payback
4) Every war movie ever made

The only good fiction is a story where the writer is willing to put his characters through the hell. Even comedies make their characters experience horrible humiliations for a laugh. The source of story is conflict: Man vs Man, Man vs Self, Man vs Nature, or Man vs Society - or did they not cover that in your European school? If you only watch movies where nobody suffers, you'll be watching Bed of Roses for the rest of your life. If that's the case, congratulations, you are true to your word. You are also very boring.



"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:09 PM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
I cannot really be said to speak on behalf of three quarters of a billion Europeans but personally I do not object to "torture as entertainment"* specifically because I am a Liberal and therefore believe there should be no limits of freedom as long as the exercise of that freedom does not infringe upon the liberty of others.

Seems non-empty to me



Because I would not limit freedom of speech or expression does not mean I "fully approve" of everything anyone has to say merely that I'll tolerate it

That I would not ban the publication of either the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf does not mean I am therefore a Communazi


...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:15 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by maugwai:
Okay, Purplebelly, let's all get it straight on just how morally superior you really are. I gather then, that you find each of the following items offensive?

You speak of things outside of my experience, especially moral superiority; please see previous postings about sensibilities

EDIT: isn't this OT? Better ask Hotpoint if we should flag it

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:23 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Because I would not limit freedom of speech or expression does not mean I "fully approve" of everything anyone has to say merely that I'll tolerate it

Could you describe in fresh terms, the extent to which the depiction of torture as entertainment could be tolerated? Any reference to Whedon's opus would help keep us on-topic; we really don't want to start discussing me

Anyway, it's after midnight for both of us - Have a Happy Christmas.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:36 PM

REEQUEEN


....following quote edited to remove my words, 'cause I remember what I said....

Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:

Not least because of all the other questions you could ask of yourself in a similar vein.

*adopts rubbish German accent*

"So, you like this show set in the future, yes? Are you unhappy in the present? Do you wish to be hundred of miles and years away from here, yah? Tell me about your mother."

It's a TV show, to say we're there to enjoy torture is tenuous beyond belief.



I just had to say, this is very amusing (and sorry for taking so long to comment). I personally blame all my personality flaws on my mother, up to and including my (supposed) penchant for watching people hurt other people. "Ja, meine frau, das ist gut! Sprechen sie all about your History Channel fixation, und I vill explain your neuroses." So far, 19 neuroses, and counting.

"Today we get to meet the real you." Niska - War Stories

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 7:04 PM

CARDIE


Some late and very random observations about the issues raised in this, uh, lively thread.

--Joss Whedon's tv shows have all posited the existence of very powerful evil in their 'verses. All those Big Bads. Because torture is such an extreme violation of one person by another, it becomes a shorthand for the serious, way beyond your garden variety evils that villains in the Jossverse practice.

--What does it mean to be able to watch the tortures Joss dishes out? Well, it can mean a whole range of things. There are people who do "enjoy" watching simulated tortures. There is S&M as both sexual practice and sexual fantasy that never goes into real world serial mutilator sorts of sadism. There are shoe fetishists who were probably getting a very different charge out of Carrie's Manolos on "Sex and the City" than the rest of us.

But there are people who can tolerate watching the depiction of torture in the service of a powerful drama or as a means to revealing interesting things about characters without finding the torture in and of itself enjoyable.

Then there are people who simply can't watch these depictions without being so repulsed that they have to turn away. As they say in fanfic circles, everyone has their "squicks." I can't watch depictions of medical procedures and also usually turn away from people being beaten up. Yet I could watch the tortures in "War Stories" without being squicked. (I think it's because we don't see a lot of blood or exposed internal organs.)

Finally, there may be people who simply believe that it is morally wrong to depict torture in the service of entertainment. From PB's statements, I'd guess that this is where he's coming from. To tolerate "War Stories" is tantamount to approving of bear-baiting, or cockfighting, or giving thumbs down to the gladiators in the arena, even though no real pain is felt or real blood shed.

--Does taking any one of the above positions on torture in the Jossverse relate to one's political beliefs, age, or place of residence. I'd have to say that it is much more a case of individual sensibilities. Had PB simply said, "I couldn't bear watching those scenes again, how did you others manage?" we would have had a very different thread.

PB, the way you have phrased all your questions about "the demographic" and "torture as entertainment," you have seemed to imply a) a moral deficiency on the part of those who do not for whatever reason turn away from those scenes in "War Stories" and b) to relate it to some alarming quality inherent in, at various points, non-Europeans, non-liberals, people younger than you, people who own televisions (and thus are under the sway of mass culture?), or "The majority audience" (who are by definition not those of refined sensibilities, because refined sensibilities are always the attribute of the few?)

I don't think I'm the only one on this board who took your original statement as insinuating, "Of course, I'm not one of those yahoo Yanks with their vulgar, violence-saturated popular culture who just re-elected that dangerous, stupid cowboy George W. Bush."

Cardie

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 7:57 PM

ANKHAGOGO


Quote:

Originally posted by Cardie:
From PB's statements, I'd guess that this is where he's coming from. To tolerate "War Stories" is tantamount to approving of bear-baiting, or cockfighting, or giving thumbs down to the gladiators in the arena, even though no real pain is felt or real blood shed.

If this is the case, I have to say I don't understand it. There's a huge difference between being able to tolerate torture or human combat in a fictional setting, and being able to tolerate it in actual life. I for one won't watch things where the pain is real -- Jackie Chan tends to make me queasy, as he's still doing all his own stunts last I checked. Actually, if I know it's even based on reality, it bothers me -- war movies being the obvious example.


Quote:

PB, the way you have phrased all your questions about "the demographic" and "torture as entertainment," you have seemed to imply a) a moral deficiency on the part of those who do not for whatever reason turn away from those scenes in "War Stories" and b) to relate it to some alarming quality inherent in, at various points, non-Europeans, non-liberals, people younger than you, people who own televisions (and thus are under the sway of mass culture?)


Quote:

it may be that, regardless of domicile, I have the sensibilities of a middle-aged pinko-liberal of moderate education without a TV


I guess the most obvious question I would have that I haven't seen asked (and sorry if I missed it & am repeating)is "How on earth did you watch/are you watching Firefly if you don't own a TV?"
It doesn't bother me if people have those "Kill Your TV" stickers -- hey, that's your right. But if you say you don't own a TV, then proceed to become a member of a website specifically dedicated to a fairly recent TV show, taking a screenname that's slang within that show's universe, a show that is only currently available on DVD, which you need a TV to view-- well, you've already undermined a large part of your image or arguement. Sure, you could be going to a friend's house to watch it, but that would be rather hypocritical,as if you were saying, "I only watch TV at other people's houses, cause I won't have an idiotbox in mine." (insert upturned nose here) That's like saying I'm not a smoker because I only bum smokes off of other people.

"I know your name, jackass!"

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 9:47 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Ankhagogo:
I guess the most obvious question I would have that I haven't seen asked (and sorry if I missed it & am repeating)is "How on earth did you watch/are you watching Firefly if you don't own a TV?"

No. Many fans of Firefly have been unable to view the show on broadcast TV.

Your assumption that the conjectured profile is me may be mistaken.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 9:53 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Ankhagogo:
But if you say you don't own a TV, then proceed to become a member of a website specifically dedicated to a fairly recent TV show, taking a screenname that's slang within that show's universe, a show that is only currently available on DVD, which you need a TV to view--

I use one of those computer thingees

EDIT: that's not to say I don't own a TV

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:03 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Cardie:
PB, the way you have phrased all your questions about "the demographic" and "torture as entertainment," you have seemed to imply a) a moral deficiency on the part of those who do not for whatever reason turn away from those scenes in "War Stories" and b) to relate it to some alarming quality inherent in, at various points, non-Europeans, non-liberals, people younger than you, people who own televisions (and thus are under the sway of mass culture?), or "The majority audience" (who are by definition not those of refined sensibilities, because refined sensibilities are always the attribute of the few?)

No. The judgements are your own. If they are shared by others, they speak of your shared apprehensions not mine.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:19 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Cardie:
--Does taking any one of the above positions on torture in the Jossverse relate to one's political beliefs, age, or place of residence. I'd have to say that it is much more a case of individual sensibilities. Had PB simply said, "I couldn't bear watching those scenes again, how did you others manage?" we would have had a very different thread.

Individual sensibilities are formed by what we do and what we learn. Much of which is related to when we are where we are. Could we resume this thread by asking I couldn't bear watching those scenes again, how did you others manage?. Possibly broadening the scope to the whole of the Whedon opus, to get back on-topic.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:37 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Cardie:
I don't think I'm the only one on this board who took your original statement as insinuating, "Of course, I'm not one of those yahoo Yanks with their vulgar, violence-saturated popular culture who just re-elected that dangerous, stupid cowboy George W. Bush."

I would be disappointed if this was the reason for the interest in this thread, which I hoped would be about you-all, not me. But perhaps it has been after all.

EDITED: to emphasise the plurality of the pronoun, after noting the misapprehension of following poster.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 24, 2004 2:02 AM

CARDIE


My response began by being about both a hypothetical, general "you" (different people who can watch torture scenes or not, for various reasons) and then about my own reactions, the "you" now addressed in your last post. So I don't think I've dodged the question.

The way the poster representing him/herself as Purplebelly phrased the questions has invited the debate to focus on Purplebellies reasons for saying what PB did. It would be disingenuous to pretend that this is an aberrant reaction. As to whether the Purplebelly construct has anything to do with who is really posting messages under that screen name, of course none of us can be certain about that.

Cardie

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 24, 2004 2:43 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Cardie:
As to whether the Purplebelly construct has anything to do with who is really posting messages under that screen name, of course none of us can be certain about that.


Not only Purplebelly believes this

EDIT: I get even more confused on the SerenityMovie site

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 24, 2004 6:22 AM

ANKHAGOGO


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Quote:

Quote:

EDIT: that's not to say I don't own a TV


What you said was "it may be that, regardless of domicile, I have the sensibilities of a middle-aged pinko-liberal of moderate education without a TV", which would lead one to believe that you yourself do not own a TV. But if this is an incorrect assumption, then that would lead me to assume also that you're neither middle-aged nor a pinko-liberal, have less or more than a "moderate education", and are not European, geographically or biologically. Oh, and that your posts on this thread are all a big wind-up.

Quote:

I use one of those computer thingees


I would find not owning a TV yet watching shows on your computer more hypocritical than not owning a TV yet watching shows at a friend's house. People who are against TV are not against the actual physical piece of technology that the media comes through, they object to the media itself (which, admittedly, is mostly crap). My dad hates current TV programming -- in fact destroyed our TV when I was small -- but he does have one now to watch movies, etc. But he rarely, if ever, watches anything but tapes or DVDs.
BUT he does have TV shows on DVD/tape. If he's watching a show produced for television broadcast,he's still watching TV. And even if he were watching it on a computer, he would still be watching TV -- he's watching a TV show. He's just not watching it on a TV. It's not as if that, in owning a computer, you don't have access to more total crap than is available through the television industry. Implying that you don't have a TV is just trying to be elitist. :sanctimonious:

Oh, there's not a smiley for that?

"I know your name, jackass!"

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 24, 2004 6:31 AM

MAUGWAI


We might as well give up. This is like arguing with a really pretentious brick wall.
It's PB vs everybody else, so obviously it's his/her problem. We love Joss and we love War Stories. If PB thinks that's immoral, so be it. His/Her loss.



"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 24, 2004 7:22 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Ankhagogo:
... that would lead me to assume also that you're neither middle-aged nor a pinko-liberal, have less or more than a "moderate education", and are not European, geographically or biologically.

It could be that a guess was made of the profile of the majority poster, and that was inverted. Purplebelly's Denouement may have been a clue to the technique.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 24, 2004 7:25 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Ankhagogo:
I would find not owning a TV yet watching shows on your computer more hypocritical than not owning a TV yet watching shows at a friend's house.

I love this idea. Does it have common currency?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 24, 2004 7:26 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Ankhagogo:
My dad ...

You're among friends. We feel your pain. Let it out.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 24, 2004 7:30 AM

REEQUEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Gorramreavers:
31 M

Maine, USA

ReeQueen


"..it is my very favorite gun."



And, I "Were I not married I would take you in a manly fashion" "'Cause I'm pretty?" "'Cause you're pretty." (By which, of course, I mean, thank you - made my day!)

In the interests of fairness (edited so to not make my English make me look dumb):
38 (almost 39); F; married (three sons, the oldest of whom is in college); SLC UT; and, in the further interest of fairness, I am flirty but usually not intentionally. I'm a banter-fluff and I like people.

On a completely other note
I have a hypothesis I want to offer:

Since I am not the only one (duh, obviously!) who found "European sensibilities" and what followed to be un-ignorable, I can't help but wonder if there hasn't been some chain-yanking. Not that I don't believe PurpleBelly is sincere, but that he or she has, perhaps, gone over and above the bounds of merely supporting an argument. The tenacity kinda gave me a clue.

But, since I too can be tenacious (and have been), and I have been known to carry an argument further than necessary because of entertainment value, I can't but be entertained. I'm just used to being the yanker, not the yankee.

(Edited to add) Having just gone back through the thread, to read more carefully of what was posted yesterday - since I was all excited this morning about my epiphany! - I know I'm not the only one to come up with the same general theory. Just wanted to state that I am aware of that, and will not claim all the glory come Judgement Day.

"Today we get to meet the real you." Niska - War Stories

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 24, 2004 7:33 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by maugwai:
If PB thinks that's immoral, so be it.

That judgement isn't contained in this thread, because it hasn't been made. And would probably be off-topic. Does anyone have anything to say about Joss and torture? The original poster would probably like to know. How about the torture of characters with whom we do not identify?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 24, 2004 7:37 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by ReeQueen:
Not that I don't believe PurpleBelly is sincere ...

There must be some gentlemen out there who can help the lady?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Testing.
Wed, June 22, 2022 19:26 - 46 posts
Where are the Extraterrestrial Civilizations
Sun, June 19, 2022 06:13 - 41 posts
Anyone gotten to the end of season 3 of The Expanse?
Mon, June 13, 2022 11:53 - 32 posts
American Humor
Mon, June 13, 2022 11:22 - 9 posts
TV's Most Shocking Deaths
Sun, June 12, 2022 21:07 - 42 posts
We British need to clean ourselves. Reality TV is our fault.
Wed, June 8, 2022 11:41 - 15 posts
CSTS 2021 Redemption Art Contest winner! All 124 cities listed.
Sun, June 5, 2022 05:48 - 3 posts
Brenda? Are You Watching FBI: Most Wanted?
Wed, May 25, 2022 00:01 - 134 posts
What does each Firefly character represent?
Mon, May 9, 2022 22:06 - 23 posts
Genetic Detective TV Show
Sat, May 7, 2022 00:11 - 6 posts
Just curious who is still here
Thu, March 24, 2022 00:46 - 37 posts
Anybody I used to know still post around here??????
Mon, March 21, 2022 19:03 - 313 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL