End Dollhouse campaign! by Calhoun

Joss Whedon
Has
Failed
Us

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Monday, October 12, 2009 6:35 PM

I get it if you don't like the show. Not everything is for everyone. Everyone has likes what they like and I respect that.

But please, please, PLEASE don't try to go out there and ruin it for those of us that do watch the show.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Monday, October 12, 2009 7:01 PM

CALHOUN

Quote:
Dewrastler wrote:
Monday, October 12, 2009 18:35

But please, please, PLEASE don't try to go out there and ruin it for those of us that do watch the show.

You know Joss can do way better..

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Monday, October 12, 2009 7:52 PM

STOWEAWAY

I like the questions that it forces the viewer to ask themself.

But this blogger says it way better than me.....

http://geekbuffet.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/dollhouse/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out http://www.americasfunniesttshirts.com to for hilarious shirts at a great price.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:40 AM

CALHOUN

Quote:
Stoweaway wrote:
Monday, October 12, 2009 19:52
I like the questions that it forces the viewer to ask themself.

But this blogger says it way better than me.....

http://geekbuffet.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/dollhouse/

That link.. Wow! Way to over analyze. Yeah, yeah, I get it.. do we have souls. He makes it sound like the best/most intellectual show on Tv. Meh..

I dont buy it.

Bring back Firefly!

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:52 AM

KRELLEK

could some please join the battle for Terminator the Sarah Connor Chronicles, there has been some indication that people at WB is really considering to maybe start it again.
if not a series then, perhaps a movie, and see where it goes from there, by buying both seasons on DVD, take a look at the following sites, The sarah connor chronicles wiki,
SaveTtSCC.com to hear what else you all can do:-)

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 5:09 AM

I think I'd actually sign a petition like this. Joss's talents can be better used elsewhere.

It's like when TSCC was canceled. I was so happy that Summer could move on and hopefully find a good show to be on. Sadly she jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire where she landed in the Dollhouse. One more cancellation and maybe she'll end up someplace better.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 5:51 AM

EVILDINOSAUR

You make it sound as though Joss is doing Dollhouse against his will. Is the browncoat army supposed to rise up and free him from this show so that he can make something else you may or may not approve of?

I'm seeing a rising opinion around here that Joss is the personal property of the browncoats. People seem to think that if he isn't doing what we want, then he needs to be made to do what we want. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that?

Yes, Dollhouse is a very different show from Firefly. Recall that Firefly was a very different show from Buffy/Angel. Maybe Joss doesn't want do the same thing twice. Maybe he wants to do something different.

You don't like Dollhouse, that's fine. Please accept that there are those of us who do. Please accept that Joss is among us. He wouldn't be wasting his time on a show he didn't think was good.

He thought Firefly was good, a lot of people didn't, and it was cancelled. If that's the future for Dollhouse, so be it. But there's no reason to push towards that end.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:49 AM

GWEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Quote:
Stoweaway wrote:
Monday, October 12, 2009 19:52
I like the questions that it forces the viewer to ask themself.

But this blogger says it way better than me.....

http://geekbuffet.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/dollhouse/

That link.. Wow! Way to over analyze. Yeah, yeah, I get it.. do we have souls. He makes it sound like the best/most intellectual show on Tv. Meh..

I dont buy it.

Bring back Firefly!

Seconded. What a bunch of pompous bull.

But then, what do you expect in an article that describes Battlestar Galactica as "one of the most important achievements in the history of entertainment"?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
You make it sound as though Joss is doing Dollhouse against his will. Is the browncoat army supposed to rise up and free him from this show so that he can make something else you may or may not approve of?

I'm seeing a rising opinion around here that Joss is the personal property of the browncoats. People seem to think that if he isn't doing what we want, then he needs to be made to do what we want. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that?

Yes, Dollhouse is a very different show from Firefly. Recall that Firefly was a very different show from Buffy/Angel. Maybe Joss doesn't want do the same thing twice. Maybe he wants to do something different.

You don't like Dollhouse, that's fine. Please accept that there are those of us who do. Please accept that Joss is among us. He wouldn't be wasting his time on a show he didn't think was good.

He thought Firefly was good, a lot of people didn't, and it was cancelled. If that's the future for Dollhouse, so be it. But there's no reason to push towards that end.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

Seconded.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:33 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Competition will kill it
even if the competitors are doing average they are doing a lot better than Dollhouse

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/10/03/thirteen-episodes-per-season-is-e
nough-for-warehouse-13-showrunner/29430
Thirteen (episodes per season) is enough for Warehouse 13 showrunner

Sounds like SyFy is pretty happy with Friday’s two-hour premiere of their latest new show, Stargate: Universe. Besides trumpeting the “best franchise premiere performance in four years”, the channel’s press release also took time out to get a rib kick into Joss Whedon’s poorly performing Dollhouse on network (i.e. free) TV.
http://www.scificool.com/syfy-boasts-about-stargate-universe-ratings-d
ollhouse-beatdown/

Dollhouse: it sucks
http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2009/04/09/dollhouse-it-sucks/

Quote:
Big disappointment from Josh Whedon over Dollhouse. Then again, I never liked Buffy/Angel either. Too corny of TV series. But both JBQ and I loved “Firefly”. I was fooled into thinking that after Firefly, Whedon found the perfect recipe for a successful — or at least cult — TV series. Instead, we were served some pretty boring, pedestrian flat shit.

http://drnormalblog.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/why-joss-whedons-dollhous
e-fails/

Quote:
1. Eliza Dushku isn’t up to the job

2. The Show’s Premise Makes No Sense

3. There’s nothing Special About It

4. Who the Hell Cares?

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=53284230553&topic=8242

Quote:

The problems are in the premise.

First of all, the very idea of interchangeable personalities means that the character will always be a blank slate.

Second, they obviously created this show just to try to put Eliza Dushku into multiple performances and personalities. Unfortunately, she can't quite pull it off. She's not helped by the writing, which doesn't give any of the alternate personalities any real interest -- except the master thief, which plays into Dushku's strengths.

My mind goes especially to that murdered older woman in "Haunted". She got something like one line before she's killed, so the result is that we don't care about who killed her, because we don't care about her. Olivia Williams further ruined that character by being so frighteningly ordinary in everything she did. Imagine if they'd cast somebody interesting as DeWitt, an actress like Kate Beckinsale or Naomi Watts. Everything Williams touched, every scene and line, turned into bland white bread. And Fran Kranz is just horrible -- just why they didn't just cast Jonathan M. Woodward (Knox in Angel) or Adam Busch (Warren in Buffy the Vampire Slayer) is a mystery to me; they would have been perfect as the science nerd, except they would have been able to handle real comedy. Kranz looks like he's at an amateur night of improv comedy.

Finally, for all of Joss Whedon's feminist cred, his concepts easily fall into exploitation rather than empowerment. He often falls into the trap of trying to put the women on a pedestal, rather than portraying them as real in all their strengths and flaws. And that is a form of marginalization (read Simone de Beauvoir). Dollhouse's treatment of its women is very shallow, unlike, say, Dark Angel.
The final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer almost made me gag, the way Buffy turned into a selfish, deluded, stupid, self-righteous bitch. This is why Faith and Willow were always so much more interesting than Buffy.

as for the Bull riding scene I'll give it a pass because I can't stand to look at that AIDS victim Dj whatshisface

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I get it if you don't like the show. Not everything is for everyone. Everyone has likes what they like and I respect that.

But please, please, PLEASE don't try to go out there and ruin it for those of us that do watch the show.

I think the majority of Joss fans are disappointed with Dollhouse. It is an average show with an intriguing premise. It just doesn't grab me like Buffy, Angel, or Firefly did. In fact it's not even near those shows in the "must see" category.

I find it tragic that Firefly had nearly triple the viewership as Dollhouse, but was deep sixed so early on people never knew what hit them.

That being said if you enjoy Dollhouse more power to ya. Watch and enjoy. I'm just speaking for the true Joss Fans that feel he is so much better than Dollhouse, and as a whole we miss that.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 8:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
I'm just speaking for the true Joss Fans that feel he is so much better than Dollhouse, and as a whole we miss that.

Now, I'm not a Dollhouse fan myself, but I don't think anyone has the right to say who is or isn't a "true" Joss fan. Just kind-of a dick statement to make.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 8:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
You make it sound as though Joss is doing Dollhouse against his will. Is the browncoat army supposed to rise up and free him from this show so that he can make something else you may or may not approve of?

I'm seeing a rising opinion around here that Joss is the personal property of the browncoats. People seem to think that if he isn't doing what we want, then he needs to be made to do what we want. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that?

Yes, Dollhouse is a very different show from Firefly. Recall that Firefly was a very different show from Buffy/Angel. Maybe Joss doesn't want do the same thing twice. Maybe he wants to do something different.

You don't like Dollhouse, that's fine. Please accept that there are those of us who do. Please accept that Joss is among us. He wouldn't be wasting his time on a show he didn't think was good.

He thought Firefly was good, a lot of people didn't, and it was cancelled. If that's the future for Dollhouse, so be it. But there's no reason to push towards that end.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

Would you respect the man if he up and quit Dollhouse right now? I would see that as a real jerk thing to do. Create something and when it doesn't go well just give up and leave it to someone else to clean up. So, in that sense he is somewhat trapped right now. I think he's too nice of a person to ditch all the great people he's working with.

I don't see how people saying that Joss can do better is saying he's our slave. Joss has plenty of projects on his back burner. Projects some of us are hungry for. Joss is still going to create what he wants (funding willing). Are you saying we aren't entitled to an opinion?

I can understand the "don't ruin it for me" attitude, but you're essentially doing the same to people who would rather see Joss work on Dr. Horrible 2 or the Book comics or whatever new show Joss might have on the line. By producing Dollhouse he's not off doing those things. So, they're being ruined for the rest of us. If there were infinite Joss resources then it would be a problem for people to want him off Dollhouse. Unfortunately he's only one man and time spent on Dollhouse is time he isn't spending on other endeavors. So, please don't ruin it for the rest of us.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 8:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

I can understand the "don't ruin it for me" attitude, but you're essentially doing the same to people who would rather see Joss work on Dr. Horrible 2 or the Book comics or whatever new show Joss might have on the line. By producing Dollhouse he's not off doing those things. So, they're being ruined for the rest of us. If there were infinite Joss resources then it would be a problem for people to want him off Dollhouse. Unfortunately he's only one man and time spent on Dollhouse is time he isn't spending on other endeavors. So, please don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Yeah, the difference there being group A is ruining something that is actually happening for others, while group b is supposedly ruining something that is merely speculation.

Besides, I highly doubt that Dollhouse has anything at all to do with the delay in finding an artist for Shepard's Tale.....

And this is a man that oversaw 3 series concurrently. Somehow I doubt that Dollhouse is the sole reason he's not doing anything else.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 8:40 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I get it if you don't like the show. Not everything is for everyone. Everyone has likes what they like and I respect that.

But please, please, PLEASE don't try to go out there and ruin it for those of us that do watch the show.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

That sums it up perfectly. I don't care for the show, but that's MY subjective reaction to it. There's no need for me to go around trying to petition for its cancelation. Others like it, so I wish them the very best of luck, and hope that they have it around for years and years.

By the way, if you have a hit show, you'll get another, and another - often while the first one is still going. If you have a string of canceled shows, it's not that easy...

In other words, the best thing you can do for Joss, by way of him getting another series, is hope for Dollhouse to become a mega-hit.

I've tried and tried, but it's just not for me. Don't let that be an indictment of Joss or the show, though - I couldn't get through the first episode of Lost, either, and I've heard it was a little bit of a hit. Doesn't that guy have another show going, or some movies or something?

And yes, that was snark.

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Yeah, the difference there being group A is ruining something that is actually happening for others, while group b is supposedly ruining something that is merely speculation.

Besides, I highly doubt that Dollhouse has anything at all to do with the delay in finding an artist for Shepard's Tale.....

And this is a man that oversaw 3 series concurrently. Somehow I doubt that Dollhouse is the sole reason he's not doing anything else.

You think Joss is going to close up shop and stop working all together if Dollhouse is canceled? His brother specifically said in an interview that they haven't done much for Dr. Horrible 2 because they're too busy right now. It's not wild speculation that they'd work on it if they had less on their plate.

From what I heard his "overseeing" of 3 series was mostly working on Firefly and leaving the others on autopilot. Those reports could be wrong, but he's still not capable of being in more than one place at a time.

Still seems like everyone just wants Joss working on what they want. Don't see why one group is any more noble than another.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Yeah, the difference there being group A is ruining something that is actually happening for others, while group b is supposedly ruining something that is merely speculation.

Besides, I highly doubt that Dollhouse has anything at all to do with the delay in finding an artist for Shepard's Tale.....

And this is a man that oversaw 3 series concurrently. Somehow I doubt that Dollhouse is the sole reason he's not doing anything else.

You think Joss is going to close up shop and stop working all together if Dollhouse is canceled? His brother specifically said in an interview that they haven't done much for Dr. Horrible 2 because they're too busy right now. It's not wild speculation that they'd work on it if they had less on their plate.

Okay, but my point is, your essentially saying screw those who like Dollhouse, drop it and do what I want.

Quote:
From what I heard his "overseeing" of 3 series was mostly working on Firefly and leaving the others on autopilot. Those reports could be wrong, but he's still not capable of being in more than one place at a time.

I recall him telling the story differently. And sure, he can't be in 2 places at once.... but he doesn't NEED to be at all places at all times.

Quote:
Still seems like everyone just wants Joss working on what they want. Don't see why one group is any more noble than another.

Well, one group wants Joss to keep doing the thing they already like - and that HE seems to be enjoying (or he wouldn't have made concessions for renewal). So some are wanting Joss to stop doing what HE likes to do what they want.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:45 AM

KHAMBILO

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
You make it sound as though Joss is doing Dollhouse against his will. Is the browncoat army supposed to rise up and free him from this show so that he can make something else you may or may not approve of?

I'm seeing a rising opinion around here that Joss is the personal property of the browncoats. People seem to think that if he isn't doing what we want, then he needs to be made to do what we want. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that?

Yes, Dollhouse is a very different show from Firefly. Recall that Firefly was a very different show from Buffy/Angel. Maybe Joss doesn't want do the same thing twice. Maybe he wants to do something different.

You don't like Dollhouse, that's fine. Please accept that there are those of us who do. Please accept that Joss is among us. He wouldn't be wasting his time on a show he didn't think was good.

He thought Firefly was good, a lot of people didn't, and it was cancelled. If that's the future for Dollhouse, so be it. But there's no reason to push towards that end.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

Seconded.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

Thirded.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:51 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Quote:
Stoweaway wrote:
Monday, October 12, 2009 19:52
I like the questions that it forces the viewer to ask themself.

But this blogger says it way better than me.....

http://geekbuffet.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/dollhouse/

That link.. Wow! Way to over analyze. Yeah, yeah, I get it.. do we have souls. He makes it sound like the best/most intellectual show on Tv. Meh..

I dont buy it.

Bring back Firefly!

Seconded. What a bunch of pompous bull.

Thirded. LOL. That's exactly what I thought!

Dollhouse is actually quite the opposite. It's 4th grade tech talk and philosophical mumbo-jumbo. As Dr. Normal put it so well in his blog: "The only part of it you remember is how much it talks down to you as if you have all the brain cells of Eliza Dushku’s Echo. And that’s damn hard to forgive." The man's got a point. It's worse even. Being talked down to is one thing: if people are actually more knowledgeable than you. Instead, the show talks down to you from a low position itself, trying to pass it off as clever. Like the way Topher peddles his idiotic over-simplifications of the brain, or his non-sensical computer wizardry. Very reminiscent of Dr. Rodney McKay (Stargate Atlantis) always talking about installing a "macro," or a "subroutine," terms that probably sound very impressive to a 12-year-old. But try and sell it to an adult, and you're just insulting them -- especially when you communicate your gibberish in a condescending fashion. That's adding insult to... well, insult.

I've been willing to overlook at lot -- after all, I'm still watching it. But when folks come out and say Dollhouse "may be the most intellectually engaging television series in the history of American television," then I shall forthwith send Kaylee back to question Mr. geekbuffet a second time!

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Okay, but my point is, your essentially saying screw those who like Dollhouse, drop it and do what I want.

And "Screw everyone else, I like Dollhouse" is better why?

I don't have a problem with either stance, but let's all be honest about our greedy motivations.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:17 AM

KHAMBILO

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Well, one group wants Joss to keep doing the thing they already like - and that HE seems to be enjoying (or he wouldn't have made concessions for renewal). So some are wanting Joss to stop doing what HE likes to do what they want.

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

And besides the aforementioned Shepherds Tale book and Dr. Horrible 2, Joss has his plate full with a whole host of other things

-Cabin in the Woods - Writer and Producer
-Buffy Season 8 - and I believe he recently announced season 9 as well, and because of that it wouldn't be too much to assume that Angel will get the same treatment
-Goners - a sort of mystery project - IMDB lists him as the writer and director
-Ripper - it's been rumored for forever, but IMDB is still listing it. I'm not sure how reliable that is, but I wouldn't count it out either.

In addition to these, it's been mentioned that Joss has had planned to do a short film project that is currently on the backburner, but not necessarily outed and he's also been affiliated with Marvel lately. He wrote an X-men comic and is also tied with another Marvel comic series Runaways.
( http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2008/07/07/joss-whedons-hollywood-status-upd
ate-horror-fantasy-goners-cabin-in-the-woods-and-more/)

To say that Joss's time is being tied up solely in Dollhouse is clearly false.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Okay, but my point is, your essentially saying screw those who like Dollhouse, drop it and do what I want.

And "Screw everyone else, I like Dollhouse" is better why?

I don't have a problem with either stance, but let's all be honest about our greedy motivations.

I addressed that - you cut it out of your quote (interesting, from a guy requesting honesty.....). Maybe you should just go back and re-read it, less selectively, you know?

Aw, here, since I'm a nice guy, I'll save you time: You aren't just saying "Screw everyone else, do what I like" you are ALSO saying "Joss, screw what you want to do, and do what I like."

As you said, be honest.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 11:01 AM

He's said he wants to do Dr. Horrible 2 and he's not doing it. I cut it out cause I disagree. The reason he's doing Dollhouse is because he has to fit the network's schedule. There's no task master on Dr. Horrible 2 so it gets shoved to the back of the list. I don't think that's what Joss wants.

Last I heard Cabin in the Woods is in the can. Possibly doing some finishing touches but I doubt it's much.
Goners got canceled I thought.
Ripper was too last I heard.
Buffy comics are another thing I'd rather he focused on instead of Dollhouse.

Really I'd take any of those over Dollhouse.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 11:14 AM

Quote:
And "Screw everyone else, I like Dollhouse" is better why?

I don't have a problem with either stance, but let's all be honest about our greedy motivations.

I don't like Dollhouse myself much, even though I watch it. The only episode I really found very engaging was Man on the Street. I've tried to be positive about it, sometimes I've even thought some of the plot twists were good in some episodes, but over all it's been me feeling blah about it but still trying to give it a chance. I don't have to watch Dollhouse, and I normally wouldn't if it was anyone but Joss.

What I want is for Joss to do what HE wants to do. And apparently it's this. Go figure.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:00 PM

CALHOUN

Quote:
asarian wrote:
Tuesday, October 13, 2009 09:51

Dollhouse is actually quite the opposite. It's 4th grade tech talk and philosophical mumbo-jumbo. As Dr. Normal put it so well in his blog: "The only part of it you remember is how much it talks down to you as if you have all the brain cells of Eliza Dushku’s Echo. And that’s damn hard to forgive." The man's got a point. It's worse even. Being talked down to is one thing: if people are actually more knowledgeable than you. Instead, the show talks down to you from a low position itself, trying to pass it off as clever. Like the way Topher peddles his idiotic over-simplifications of the brain, or his non-sensical computer wizardry. Very reminiscent of Dr. Rodney McKay (Stargate Atlantis) always talking about installing a "macro," or a "subroutine," terms that probably sound very impressive to a 12-year-old. But try and sell it to an adult, and you're just insulting them -- especially when you communicate your gibberish in a condescending fashion. That's adding insult to... well, insult.

Well said.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
The reason he's doing Dollhouse is because he has to fit the network's schedule. There's no task master on Dr. Horrible 2 so it gets shoved to the back of the list. I don't think that's what Joss wants.

...uh... what? The only reason he's making the show it to fit their schedule....? What kind of asinine logic is that? Fox isn't holding a gun to his head to make Dollhouse. If he didn't WANT to do it, he could have:

A) Not pitched it.
B) Refused to lower the costs after season 1, and let it be canceled
C) Work on other projects concurrently (which he has done many times before)
D) Let it continue with a different show-runner.
F) Quit, and let FOX figure it out

He did none of those, and CHOSE to keep doing the show.

As for Dr. Horrible 2 - I'm sure that Neil Patrick Harris and Nathan Fillion both starring in successful shows has nothing at all to do with the delay. If only Dollhouse wasn't going, they would be instantly free to fly off and do it....because obviously they're not doing anything else....

You act as if he's locked in some dungeon, forced to toil away at this show against his will. It's ridiculous, and your reasoning borders on nonsensical.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:43 PM

You're right. Go Dollhouse. It's a really good show. Joss is master of all of hollywood. All other opinions are incorrect.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:51 PM

MANGOLO

Quote:
Originally posted by khambilo:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Well, one group wants Joss to keep doing the thing they already like - and that HE seems to be enjoying (or he wouldn't have made concessions for renewal). So some are wanting Joss to stop doing what HE likes to do what they want.

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

And besides the aforementioned Shepherds Tale book and Dr. Horrible 2, Joss has his plate full with a whole host of other things

-Cabin in the Woods - Writer and Producer
-Buffy Season 8 - and I believe he recently announced season 9 as well, and because of that it wouldn't be too much to assume that Angel will get the same treatment
-Goners - a sort of mystery project - IMDB lists him as the writer and director
-Ripper - it's been rumored for forever, but IMDB is still listing it. I'm not sure how reliable that is, but I wouldn't count it out either.

In addition to these, it's been mentioned that Joss has had planned to do a short film project that is currently on the backburner, but not necessarily outed and he's also been affiliated with Marvel lately. He wrote an X-men comic and is also tied with another Marvel comic series Runaways.
( http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2008/07/07/joss-whedons-hollywood-status-upd
ate-horror-fantasy-goners-cabin-in-the-woods-and-more/)

To say that Joss's time is being tied up solely in Dollhouse is clearly false.

AND he is running around Hollywood trying to raise money for his own micro-studio to produce more things like Dr. Horrible- that in itself is a full time job!

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 1:06 PM

Quote:
You're right. Go Dollhouse. It's a really good show. Joss is master of all of hollywood. All other opinions are incorrect.

No one has argued any of those points. In fact, most of those points can not really be argued because they are opinions.

We have only disagreed that Joss "should quit Dollhouse to work on better shows." Which I believe was the premise at the start of this thread...?

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 5:47 PM

GWEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
The reason he's doing Dollhouse is because he has to fit the network's schedule. There's no task master on Dr. Horrible 2 so it gets shoved to the back of the list. I don't think that's what Joss wants.

...uh... what? The only reason he's making the show it to fit their schedule....? What kind of asinine logic is that? Fox isn't holding a gun to his head to make Dollhouse.

Well, in a certain sense, they are. Whedon presumably has a contract with the network to do X amount of work for DOLLHOUSE, assuming DOLLHOUSE continues. If he were to fail to live up to his end of the deal, there would be financial (and likely professional) ramifications.

I think what Zeek is getting at, basically, if that Joss has to fulfil his commitment to his JOB (working on DOLLHOUSE) before he can spend time on PERSONAL PROJECTS (such as DR. HORRIBLE 2), for which he might have more passion.

Nothing asinine about that viewpoint. That's the problem most of us have to face: I'd RATHER spend my day writing virtual Firefly episodes than working at a real job, but I also have a powerful need to eat. Joss, however, is theoretically in a position where if his "job" ended (ie, DOLLHOUSE were cancelled), he's got enough clout and money that he'd be just fine without it and could move on to other projects.

Quote:
If he didn't WANT to do it, he could have:

A) Not pitched it.

He did not initially want to pitch it. He said, in fact, that he didn't want to work on TV again, and specifically didn't want to work for FOX.

Dushku, who has a development deal with the network, begged him to do the show when he came up with the concept on the spur of the moment.

It's true that he could simply have refused, but our boy Joss does seem to love a challenge. More importantly, though, the story of the show's inception pretty clearly demonstrates that Joss's heart wasn't necessarily in DOLLHOUSE the way it was with other shows right from the very start.

Quote:
B) Refused to lower the costs after season 1, and let it be canceled

Again, your statement is essentially true. However, in for penny, in for pound. Once Joss attached himself to DOLLHOUSE, he can't ALLOW it to fail.

It's pretty clear from interviews and commentary that Joss often takes a subversive--if not outright adversarial--approach to dealing with the networks.

If Joss were to out-and-out refuse to deal with the networks and just walk away, there would likely be some longterm ramifications for his career. A reputation as brilliant but difficult is very different from a rep as a guy who refuses to compromise at all.

Quote:
C) Work on other projects concurrently (which he has done many times before)

And he has, in interviews, admitted the failure inherent to that. I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure he never said he'd do that again (of course, he also said he'd never work with FOX again...).

His situation now, however, is very different than when he was working on BUFFY, ANGEL, and FIREFLY. Back around the turn of the century, Whedon was "empire building." He was expanding outward, on the rise, starting with Buffy and moving on to other projects.

More importantly, he didn't broaden his horizons until his current project could run on its own. DOLLHOUSE, under constant thread of cancellation, is nowhere close to that. DOLLHOUSE barely floats WITH Joss. It would surely sink without him.

You know, I've always found the year that Joss worked on three series to be quite intriguing. You can actually watch the quality move from show to show as Joss's focus changed throughout the course of the year.

Quote:
D) Let it continue with a different show-runner.
F) Quit, and let FOX figure it out

Again, these are choices that are professionally unpalatable. Either could be essentially career suicide, at least in the short term.

Quote:
He did none of those, and CHOSE to keep doing the show.

Indeed. Because it's his job.

Quote:
As for Dr. Horrible 2 - I'm sure that Neil Patrick Harris and Nathan Fillion both starring in successful shows has nothing at all to do with the delay. If only Dollhouse wasn't going, they would be instantly free to fly off and do it....because obviously they're not doing anything else....

Assuming that DrH2 is not a full-length feature, then, yes, it actually IS quite likely that Fillion and Harris could be free fairly quickly.

People tend to forget that actors often spend the LEAST amount of time working on a movie, TV show, or other project. While I doubt Fillion or Harris would be able to fit DrH2 in on a weekend between filming back-to-back episodes of their shows, actors typically have the time to film one or two other projects during the course of a TV season (remember, they're working for less than half the year), so if Joss has everything ready to roll, I'd guess he'd have to wait less than two months for the actors to be available (quite possibly considerably less, given how much the actors seem to enjoy working with him).

Quote:
You act as if he's locked in some dungeon, forced to toil away at this show against his will. It's ridiculous, and your reasoning borders on nonsensical.

I think Zeek's phrasing may be a little extreme, but he's neither "ridiculous" nor "nonsensical."

Joss is not toiling in a dungeon, but he IS contractually tied to a show that is much closer to "work for hire" than any project he's worked on since the first season of BUFFY.

Regardless of his reasons for hiring on in the first place, he is now in a position where he can't, for professional reasons, simply allow the project to wither so that he can move on to greener pastures. If, however, FOX were to cancel DOLLHOUSE, Joss's contract would be over and he would be "free" to move on to other projects without being viewed as at-fault for sabotaging or abandoning his own project. I think that's the point Zeek is trying to make.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 7:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
You're right. Go Dollhouse. It's a really good show. Joss is master of all of hollywood. All other opinions are incorrect.

Taking your toys and going home, because people won't jump on your bandwagon? Feel free. Maybe your mommie will make ya some cookies to cheer you up.

Oh, and I never said it was a great show - I specifically said I wasn't a fan - I was merely pointing out that just because some don't like it, it doesn't mean no-one does, nor does it mean poor wittle Joss is locked in a dungeon forced to make the show. Sorry that's so upsetting to you... wait, no, I'm not.

Oh, and no one said other opinions were incorrect - but when you express your opinion, and insist it's fact - be ready to treated like a tool.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Now, I'm not a Dollhouse fan myself, but I don't think anyone has the right to say who is or isn't a "true" Joss fan. Just kind-of a dick statement to make.

All my friends hate the show too(all of them fans of Buffy and Firefly) so from my perspective, I think my statement was accurate.
I guess being a true Joss Whedon fan would mean liking the piece of shit show Dollhouse also, So I guess I'm not one either.

Cheeers.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:19 AM

HELL'S KITTEN

...oh, how fun, more "true fan" talk.

Personally, from my point of view, being a "true fan" means you realize and accept this simple fact:

JOSS WHEDON IS NOT YOUR BITCH.

You can like the show or you can hate the show, and you can express that in any way you like. But wanting everyone who works on it to suddenly be unemployed because you don't like it and so Joss can work on what you want... well, quite frankly, you're acting like spoiled little children with entitlement issues. And that, right there, is quite possibly the number one reason why fandoms turn from awesome to suck.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Now, I'm not a Dollhouse fan myself, but I don't think anyone has the right to say who is or isn't a "true" Joss fan. Just kind-of a dick statement to make.

All my friends hate the show too(all of them fans of Buffy and Firefly) so from my perspective, I think my statement was accurate.
I guess being a true Joss Whedon fan would mean liking the piece of shit show Dollhouse also, So I guess I'm not one either.

Cheeers.

Well, if your friends hate it, it must mean you are the sole authority on what makes a true fan - or your an ass, one of those two.

I'm not sure if there is any such thing as a "true fan", but if there is, I'm pretty sure it's not someone who is a big enough douchebag to think they can declare who is and isn't one, just because they have a differing opinion.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Maybe others have said this, but I haven't read the entire thread. I tried to like Dollhouse; it left me cold. Haven't bothered since. On the other hand, I wish all who enjoy it a long run; it's not my place to force my taste on others.

While, yes, I would like to see Joss working on something I could appreciate, it's not my place to bitch and moan about what he DOES choose to work on.

Quote:
Finally, for all of Joss Whedon's feminist cred, his concepts easily fall into exploitation rather than empowerment. He often falls into the trap of trying to put the women on a pedestal, rather than portraying them as real in all their strengths and flaws. And that is a form of marginalization (read Simone de Beauvoir). Dollhouse's treatment of its women is very shallow, unlike, say, Dark Angel.
The final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer almost made me gag, the way Buffy turned into a selfish, deluded, stupid, self-righteous bitch. This is why Faith and Willow were always so much more interesting than Buffy.

Found that very interesting--in that I never liked Buffy (because I thought those adjectives described her perfectly for eight years), but loved the show. And I admit all of the female characters in Firefly might well come under the same description: pedastalled.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 11:57 AM

Interesting. All of them?

River perhaps might be "pedastalled." Hurt dark waifishly ethereal girl who can kick ass is probably someone's female fantasy.

Zoe's attitude and strength is as well, I think Wash pretty much sums up that angle.

But Kaylee and Inara...? While both are attractive, even drop-dead gorgeous, I also always got "just a regular girl" vibes from them, where Kaylee is the tom-boy and Inara is the lip-stick and high-heels girl.

And I've also always thought that Inara was about deconstructing pedestals. She's introduced as a character who is arguably higher on the social totem pole than anyone except the Tams before the Academy, but she's also shown to be "one of the gang." The only character who resists that inclusion is Mal, who does put her on a pedestal in a way that I think is meant to illustrate how foolish his behaviour is.

Kaylee too, yeah she's a little harsh on Simon now and then, but I thought one of the themes there was to get Simon to loosen up. Respect, but without being ridiculous or condescending.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Now, I'm not a Dollhouse fan myself, but I don't think anyone has the right to say who is or isn't a "true" Joss fan. Just kind-of a dick statement to make.

All my friends hate the show too(all of them fans of Buffy and Firefly) so from my perspective, I think my statement was accurate.
I guess being a true Joss Whedon fan would mean liking the piece of shit show Dollhouse also, So I guess I'm not one either.

Cheeers.

What's with all the hostility, everyone? This is supposed to be a place to share ideas, and now we're putting people down for having different opinions and calling each other names. That just doesn't sit right with me.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:23 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
What's with all the hostility, everyone? This is supposed to be a place to share ideas, and now we're putting people down for having different opinions and calling each other names. That just doesn't sit right with me.

Yeah, you'd think this was RWED or something.

As for myself, I am continuing to watch Dollhouse and I expect I will for as long as FOX keeps it on the air. Do I love it? No, perhaps I don't even like it some weeks. But there is a potentially great show lurking in there somewhere and I'd like to see it if it ever shows up.

If you don't like it don't watch it, but don't tell me I'm a sheeple for continuing with the show. Hell, I'm still watching Heroes and we all know how bad that has been since the end of Season One.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I'm not sure if there is any such thing as a "true fan", but if there is, I'm pretty sure it's not someone who is a big enough douchebag to think they can declare who is and isn't one, just because they have a differing opinion.

Glad you enjoy Dollhouse. If it gets really good let me know.

Oh, and if you don't like the show....WHY THE HELL ARE YO ARGUING WITH ME?

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:19 PM

Because we don't think Joss should just quit. He has an obligation to his crew, and I haven't seen anything to suggest he doesn't want to work on this.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:15 PM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

Okay, I'll admit this season is starting out suckally(sp?). Much like the last one. I think the people (including me) who know the show isn't as good as it could be, but watch it anyway, are waiting/hoping for another "Man on the Street" moment. An ep that makes you think: "Oh yeah, this is a Joss Whedon show!".

Personally, I was hoping that season 2 would start off in the future after "Epitaph One". Maybe have an opening narration about what happened on the show so far a la "Heroes", but start it close to where we left off....

Select to view spoiler:

The Roof.

Yeah, I'm kind-of interested in Sierra, Echo, Victor, Boyd, Paul, and even Topher; but in comparison, I actually CARE (a lot) about "Little Caroline", Mag, and Zone, and where in the Hell "Save Haven" is!

ETA: Okay, I just noticed this: Is it just me, or does my Tara quote signature look like what would be written on a sign when entering the "Save Haven"?

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 9:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
While, yes, I would like to see Joss working on something I could appreciate, it's not my place to bitch and moan about what he DOES choose to work on.

It is your place. Everyone has an opinion, and that is what forums are for. To express your likes, and dislikes. I've seen you go batty in the RWED(over opinionated) so why stop with politics? TV is just as fun to discuss. We are all adults, you don't have to worry about offending someone. Be someone......have a voice in pop culture!

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:56 AM

The problem is, this is kind of like arguing over whether a mother should breast-feed or bottle-feed. Pros and cons, but it's still the choice of the parent, and anonymous voices really aren't going to have much influence.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
The problem is, this is kind of like arguing over whether a mother should breast-feed or bottle-feed. Pros and cons, but it's still the choice of the parent, and anonymous voices really aren't going to have much influence.

This is true, but Joss Whedon is making a show for everyone to enjoy. When many people are dissatisfied with the product, it his obligation to make it better(not suck). Or he can choose to go his own way, and be associated with a turkey of a show.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
When many people are dissatisfied with the product, it his obligation to make it better(not suck)

What makes you believe he's not trying?

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:34 AM

KWICKO

It IS getting a little too RWED in here...

I'm not watching Dollhouse any more, but as I've said, I'd like to come back sometime in the middle of Season Four and find out it's not only the best show on TV ever, but the most popular as well.

Why? Simple. I have ulterior motives. I want Joss to be the biggest badass in Hollywood; I want studios lining up outside his door begging him to let them back his next installment of Firefly or Serenity. I want them beating down his door, pleading with him to help get "Buffy: The Musical" on Broadway.

To do all that, he needs a hit show, not a dud.

In the meantime, anyone who likes Dollhouse should feel free to continue to do so. Who am I to judge what's good and what isn't when it comes to TV? I liked Gilmore Girls; I like Eastwick, and I hate Vampire Diaries, so what do I know?

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:21 AM