The Message by GuerillaTheatre

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

The Message

POSTED BY: GUERILLATHEATRE
UPDATED: Monday, November 14, 2005 18:03
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6610
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Saturday, August 20, 2005 1:51 PM

I am more and more amazed with this show with each and every episode I watch. I thought it couldn't get any better than "Out of Gas" then I came to "The Message". I honestly don't know what to say except, "Wow!" This episode featured some of the highest drama and best comedy. A perfect blend. Shakespeare would be hard pressed to do better.

More and more I ask, "How the hell could Fox cancel this show?"

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Saturday, August 20, 2005 2:00 PM

REALLYKAYLEE

ok so the message is up there with my favorites
BUT HONESTLY who do you think you are for comparing it to shakespeare? :) seriously-- shakespeare used more words than God (or at least the king james version) and his work is read by millions today. not to mention turned into a wishbone episode. *giggles*. i went to die-hard shakespeare camp this summer after adoring the man my whole life and that's where i met firefly. in a room surrounded by 20 girls all leaning over a laptop-- so ya know- i guess there's room for both!
but yeah, the message=wicked shiny!
1.) God
2.) Shakespeare
3.) Firefly/LOTR
4.) BBC Costume Dramas

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Saturday, August 20, 2005 2:19 PM

GUERILLATHEATRE

Well, I feel that I am fairly qualified to make such a comparison being as my Bachelor's degree is in Theatre with an emphasis in Classical Performance and I hold I minor in English Literature which I earned almost entirely by studying Shakespeare's works. ~wink~

Honestly, of the modern screenwriters, Joss Whedon and Quentin Tarantino come the closest to matching the Bard's wit and uncanny ability to place the perfect comedic moment at the precipice of dramatic tension. It's truly masterful.

I'm so glad my friend Robb forced me to start watching this show! If he hadn't snuck his DVDs into my house and left them there for nearly 3 weeks, I never would have watched Firefly.

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Saturday, August 20, 2005 5:03 PM

REALLYKAYLEE

you=my hero.
the hero of shakespeare the (wo)man they call gorillatheatre!

my plans are to study shakespeare and history. i suppose i'll have to worry about specifics soon. curses.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 4:30 AM

GUERILLATHEATRE

(I'm a man btw)

Good for you! Some will tell you that there is no future in studying the past, but I would strongly disagree. Studying Shakespeare and History, you'll find, go hand in hand. Study other famous playwrites as well, Moliere, Marlowe, and so very many others that provide such insight into their particular time periods.

You'll also find that Joss Whedon is a fan of Shakespeare. Many of his themes come from Shakespearean works and he tosses in more than a few clevel homages to the bard for those who know where and when to look.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 5:10 AM

PERIDIDDLE

Quote:
Originally posted by reallykaylee:
not to mention turned into a wishbone episode. *giggles*.

The TRUE mark of Shakespeare's greatness!

(The sad thing is...I'm kinda not kidding. My first exposure to Shakespeare, and now that I think about it a LOT of awesome literature, was from that little dog...)

I love The Message. It's not my favorite episode, because that's just incredibly hard to decide on, but I watch it often. I kind of love the Tracy character, and I would watch that episode JUST for the music that is played over his funeral - it's so lovely, and was pretty much written as a goodbye to Firefly. When you're in the mood to watch The Message, but also want to have a bit more of a laugh, I would highly suggest turning on the commentary with Jewel Staite and Alan Tudyk. You learn a bit of behind the scenes things, Alan and Jewel are HILARIOUS, and...it's quite obvious they've both had a bit too much to drink. ^_^

"Bwaa...it's kind of a warrior...strikes fear into the hearts of..."

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 7:02 AM

SERGEANTX

Definitely an amazing episode. I certainly don't have any problem comparing it to Shakespeare. I've seen a lot of that in Joss's work. For me, it comes through in his obviously love afair with language. Joss has a way of writing dialogue that is poetic and lyrical, yet something decent actors can deliver in a naturalistic way. I suspect that's how Shakespeare sounded to those hearing it in their native language (ie old english).

This episode isn't my #1 (due in part to a gnawing plot thing - why didn't they just TELL him they had a plan?) but it is in my top few.

* It features on of the best single shots of the series, namely the final frame of Mal standing alone, deep in thought, as the snow falls around him. Not to mention the best musical piece of the series in that same scene.

* Adam Baldwin's acting is wonderful in this episode. I haven't seen a lot of his other work, but he seems to be born to play Jayne.

* I've always felt like Kaylee, despite her outer shell of sunshine, is a deeply lonely person. This episode highlights that in such a beautiful way.

* The whole theme of this episode is something that was just beginning as a story arc, and given the cancellation, and shift in emphasis with the movies, something I fear won't see follow through. I'm talking about the idea that Mal can't be entirely content with the path he's chosen. The episode brings home the fact that Mal and crew, despite their various heroic qualites, are thieves and killers.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 7:06 AM

GROUNDED

The Message is great at face value, but it's got plenty of plot holes that tend to spoil my enjoyment of repeat viewings.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 7:17 AM

SERGEANTX

I often wonder if, from Joss's point of view, the plot isn't the 'face value' and the character drama is the real core.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 8:10 AM

JACQUI

Quote:

* I've always felt like Kaylee, despite her outer shell of sunshine, is a deeply lonely person. This episode highlights that in such a beautiful way.

Oh, thank you. I couldn't have put it better myself. That is such a perfect description. And, yes, this is one of the few things I like about 'The Message'.

(I may be biased as I cannot stand Jonathon Woodward and the whole episode is ruined for me due to him).

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 8:15 AM

NIKNAK

Firefly is far too new to fairly compare it to five hundred year old plays. It needs at least a hundred years before we can make a balanced judgement on whether Shakespeare is as actually as good as Firefly

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 8:31 AM

REALLYKAYLEE

silly fan-- shakespeare isn't in old english! :)! (i hate smiley faces but need you to know that i'm in jest!)
perididdle-- me tooooo! at camp we were sharing life changing experiences and i had to tell about R+J wishbone . . . more than a little embarassing. (luckily most everyone had a similar experience!)
guerrilatheatre-- examples? please? the one overpowering moment for me was the similarities between the bad guy in heart of gold and angelo from measure for measure. i know their totally different but think about it . . .
did i mention how terrific it is to find people who like shakespeare AND firefly outside of my tight community?
oh . . . i'm making this more about shakespeare than the message (i repent gt) but does "they do not love that do not show their love" affect firefly at all? i have always believed that this premise was central to the kaylee school of thought.
tracey=mercutio? hmm. . .
i'm going to do work now. history work. islam and the spice wars work. wishing it had more to do with firefly work.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 1:33 PM

GUERILLATHEATRE

One recurring Shakespearean theme in Firefly and in Joss Whedon's other work with Buffy and Angel is the sense of heroic duty thrust upon unlikely characters. Shakespeare borrowed this from the Greek playwrites and others have also sampled it.

Take, for example, the character of Buffy Summers. She's a female representation of Hamlet. She's a party girl going through life on easy street before she has the incredible supernatural duty dropped on her shoulders. She has to save the world the same way as Hamlet has to save Denmarck.

The Buffy/Angel story arc is certainly Romeo and Juliet retold.

Giles is very similar to Prospero in The Tempest. Especially in his latter seasons on the show as he deals with Buffy growing up and not needing him anymore in the same way as Prospero deals with aging and the world passing him by.

Sorry to go off on Buffy but I'm more familiar with that show than Firefly. I'm going through these episodes for the first time and haven't had the time to really analyze them. These examples are also the very obvious ones. There are certainly others that are more obfuscated such as the similarities both Spike and Angel share with Shylock from the Merchant of Venice. Tragic characters of circumstance...truly beasts, demons even...but with slivers of hidden humanity.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 3:46 PM

REALLYKAYLEE

shiny. i was familiar with the shakespeare char. but none of the buffy ones. i never thought i'd like the show (but then i never intended to like firefly) but those char. sound awesome. maybe i'll give 'em a shot.
oh, and i used a bit of the 'a future in the past' theme in a paper on Ishmael by daniel quinn. hope you don't mind! *holds breath* :)

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 12:52 AM

CARBONEL

This episode isn't my #1 (due in part to a gnawing plot thing - why didn't they just TELL him they had a plan?) but it is in my top few.

Why there isn’t a plot hole in ‘The Message’

I’m fairly new to Firefly and just getting to grips with the online community. But I’ve seen a few people complain about the glaring plot hole in ‘The Message’ and just want to throw in my twopenn’th.

This annoyed me too the first time through, but when I watched the episode again (and again) it struck me that there are good reasons why Mal never says ‘Hang on a minute Tracey – we’re not going to turn you over’, and they’re all to do with Mal’s character and how he runs the ship.

We already know how much emphasis Mal places on military discipline and unquestioning loyalty. This isn’t the first time that we’ve seen Mal operate in such a highhanded fashion. For example, in ‘Bushwacked’ he orders Simon to bring River down to the Cargo bay without explaining that he has a plan to keep them both safe from the Feds.

In fact there are strong parallels between Simon and Tracey throughout. In ‘The Message’ Mal says that Tracey has brought all of his own problems down on Firefly. In ‘Serenity Part II’ he says pretty much exactly the same thing to Simon. In both cases Mal is unhappy with the situation, but it is clear that he will take on the responsibility. But there’s a clear trade – you make Mal responsible for your problems, and you have to accept that Mal is now in charge.

Difficulties arise when Tracey brings his problems to Mal, but then refuses to follow orders. Simon would have some excuses – he’s non-military, and he has no history with Mal. But Tracey should know better. In my opinion, Mal is genuinely perplexed by Tracey’s behaviour and, of course, angered. Tracey turns up out of the blue, carrying contraband goods and being chased by murderous Feds and then draws a gun on Mal and his crew? The first thought through Mal’s head is so not ‘Gosh, how can I reassure Tracey?’

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 3:59 AM

DIETCOKE

I also have a degree in classical theater (acting) and I am also huge Shakespeare fan. My favorite authors are:

1. Shakespeare
2. Charles Dickens
3. J.R.R. Tolkien
4. Joss Whedon
5. Tennesse Williams

Joss' work is destined to become classic. Thank God! An author I like that is still alive.

NY/NJ Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 5:59 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by Carbonel:
Difficulties arise when Tracey brings his problems to Mal, but then refuses to follow orders. Simon would have some excuses – he’s non-military, and he has no history with Mal. But Tracey should know better. In my opinion, Mal is genuinely perplexed by Tracey’s behaviour and, of course, angered. Tracey turns up out of the blue, carrying contraband goods and being chased by murderous Feds and then draws a gun on Mal and his crew? The first thought through Mal’s head is so not ‘Gosh, how can I reassure Tracey?’

No the first thought in Mal's head is 'How can I protect my crew?'. In this case, the only sensible thing is to tell Tracey the plan.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 7:03 AM

ZEEK

I thought the plot all around was a big mistake.

Not telling Tracey the plan was bad enough. There's also the problem of the organ smuggling. Are they somehow saying that Tracy's organs are able to be preserved and waiting for him wherever he's headed to be put back in when they scoop out the special ones? Even if that were true then his "better offer" wouldn't have his old organs and would mean that he's gonna die for this "better offer"? It's all around dumb.

It's near the bottom of my favorite firefly episodes.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 7:20 AM

CARBONEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

No the first thought in Mal's head is 'How can I protect my crew?'. In this case, the only sensible thing is to tell Tracey the plan.

I don't disagree that the first thought in Mal's head [BOLD] ought [BOLD] to be 'How can I protect my crew?' but the fact is that it really doesn't appear to be. He tells Wash to make the call - and Wash ends up getting shot. And I would argue that that is (1) because Mal really doesn't believe that Tracey will actually shoot, and (2)because Mal is focused on the challenge to his authority, not the safety of him and his crew.

Mal's (in my opinion, chilling) words are 'You mailed your ugly business to Zoe and me, Tracey, cash-on-delivery. I'll go to Hell before I watch you turn and bite us for the favor --' In other words, Mal is prepared to be shot sooner than back down. And for Mal, explaining the underlying plan [BOLD] would [BOLD] constitute backing down.

I'd have to add that I'm not a 'defend Joss at all costs' person - I think that there have been glaring plot holes in some episodes on all his shows. I just think that, the more I look at it, 'The Message' isn't one of them. I think that what this interaction in 'The Message' tells us is that Mal's code of honour and his focus on being in control (which often seem so cool) is sometimes problematic.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 7:29 AM

RIJPE

I absolutely love "The Message" as long as I don't think about the plot holes too much.

If anyone can come up with a remotely plausible way that the organ smuggling thing was going to work, I would be most greatful. I desperately want the episode to make sense, and am willing to do a fair bit of "suspension of disbelief."

For instance, I'm willing to start with -- "Okay, so high-paying patients will only accept perfect quality organs, and the only way to keep organs in this perfect condition is to keep them working in a human body. However, the Alliance is capable of scooping Tracey's organs out, transporting them and keeping them usable -- they aren't in perfect shape after they are restored, and Tracey perhaps loses 5 years off of his life."

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:49 AM

THIEFJEHAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
No the first thought in Mal's head is 'How can I protect my crew?'. In this case, the only sensible thing is to tell Tracey the plan.

No, I disagree.

If you character act this out in your own mind Mal's thought is more like "I'm confused by this turn of events. Furthermore I am angry and I'm also the captain. This kid was a private under my NCO command and he damn well knows better than to stick a gun in my face...and he's doing it on my boat"

This is summed up by what Mal actually says

"You mailed your ugly business to Zoe and me Tracey. Cash on Delivery. I'll go to hell before I watch you turn and bite us for the favor"

I would have felt betrayed by Joss had Mal tried to explain his grand plan to Tracey. It is not in Mal's nature to back down or to be told what to do. Now somebody like Wash? There's the bigger question. Wash is just the person to say something like "Wait Wait....it's cool...we have a shiney plan" But I felt that it was a better episode that Wash held silent and let the captain be the boss.

I feel strongly that there was never a plot hole.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:58 AM

SPINLAND

My belief in a plot hole in this episode actually comes from a different source.

When Wash pilots the ship brilliantly through the narrow canyon, sure he's lost all pursuit, he's chagrined to look up and see Womack was too smart to follow him in; he just flew overhead and kept position advantage while staying in the clear. Brilliant move, Joss, and I applauded it.

So, when they're ready to "give up" Tracey, why does Womack allow himself to be drawn into a strange ship, containing who knows how many armed crewmembers, thus giving up his decisive advantage in the situation? His fancy and well-armed ship was his one trump card. Bad, bad and stupid move. Better to make them send Tracey across open ground, to enter Womack's ship--then Womack could blow Serenity to cinders and be on his way.

For that matter, after he'd been thwarted twice, I don't buy Womack's not blowing them on the way out, just for spite. He was clearly the type for such things, they now had him pegged as a Fed who illegally moonlighted, and the local Fed base would be none the wiser--he'd proven that by depth-charging them with impunity.

No, that's the plot hole in the episode that bothers me. Mal was in a no-win situatuion, and it feels lame that he got out of it based on what was presented.

---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.

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Friday, September 16, 2005 6:10 AM

THIEFJEHAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Spinland:
So, when they're ready to "give up" Tracey, why does Womack allow himself to be drawn into a strange ship, containing who knows how many armed crewmembers, thus giving up his decisive advantage in the situation? His fancy and well-armed ship was his one trump card. Bad, bad and stupid move. Better to make them send Tracey across open ground, to enter Womack's ship--then Womack could blow Serenity to cinders and be on his way.

One could argue that Womack was an exceptionally arrogant person and futher felt that he was meerly dealing with small time cargo haulers who wouldn't put up a fight. Then you could further justify that with a statement regarding Womack's extremely low wisdom. He also added the line "I've been shot to many times to be scared by a gun boy" to Jayne which kinda portrays those traits.

Quote:
For that matter, after he'd been thwarted twice, I don't buy Womack's not blowing them on the way out, just for spite. He was clearly the type for such things, they now had him pegged as a Fed who illegally moonlighted, and the local Fed base would be none the wiser--he'd proven that by depth-charging them with impunity.

Now thats a good point. After being outmanuvered by Mal...and then threatened by Book, I can see Womack taking off and launching a couple rockets into a small time cargo-hauler. And he's just the kind of hateful person to do such a thing.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:09 PM

KIZYR

The Message is my second-favourite episode, right behind Out of Gas, and still I think it's the best that offers insight into what the war was like. It's like I said in another thread, and like what Tracey implies in his recording... he might've survived the war, but it still killed him.

The more I look at it, though... I don't see the 'plotholes' y'all are talking about. There are a lot of occasions where characters simply make mistakes. Whedon's characters are very human, so sometimes come crunch time they slip up. Mal's need for control outweight considering telling Tracey the plan. Wash overlooked the possibility of the pursuing ship avoiding flying into the canyon. And the pursuing officer was so confident, he didn't have a problem walking onto the ship--he had them cornered, so he figured on an unconditional surrender.

As for how human organ transport would work... eh, they never explain quite how terraforming works either. I chalk it up to another technological advance. It's science fiction, so it seems like such a minor thing to quibble over in an otherwise brilliant episode. KF

EDIT: This reminds me, I need to change my AIM profile... Currently it's a paraphrased line from the commentary on The Message: "Since I wasn't in this scene, I spent the entire time planning the party afterwards. You know, the 'we're not working for Fox anymore' party." ~Alan Tudyk. KF

~Kaiser Farooque

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Saturday, October 15, 2005 5:29 AM

SONMICA

I've only watched this episode recently and I'm just going by what I remember from the top of my head, but I just wanted to add my two cents.

From what I understood of it, Tracey was as cowardly as he was lazy. Tracey. Ain't you been killed yet? The only reason he survived the war was because of Mal and Zoe. In the flashback, Tracey is sitting down having beans ... he could have been killed right then if it weren't for Zoe, and it was because he let his guard down, he was less attentive than he should have been.

Through his own actions, bad judgement and bad decision making, he ended up in the kind of trouble he was in. He was tangled up with dangerous people, he had sold his body for illegal smuggling (shows what he would do for money), and he was a long way from home with no sign of easily dodging his problems. He took the easy way out, by "dying", and dumped the rest of it on Zoe and Mal.

Now Mal is fierce protective of his crew, and in comes Tracey from out of nowhere, dumping his problems on them, and then puts their lives in danger to save his own hide. What I understood from that scene and the reason that Tracey had to die, was that he had gotten himself into this mess, he should be responsible for what happens. Mal wouldn't allow his crew to be threatened or harmed by Alliance for something they had nothing to do with, all because Tracey wanted to run from his problems and his responsibilities.

When I watched this episode (albeit, only the one time), I didn't really think about wether or not it had plot-holes. I did think that it was kind of odd that Tracey died, whereas many a crew member with more serious looking wounds lived (thanks to Simon), but now that I think about it, it all makes some sort of sense. Tracey was saved the humility (?) of being punished by the people he betrayed, but at the same time, he was punished for his bad judgement and lack of seriousness when it came to real decisions. His undoing was all his own fault, and Mal knew it. That call means you just murdered me... You murdered yourself, son.

We went to war never looking to come back, but it's the real world I couldn't survive. Tracey lost the luxury of having his skin saved by Zoe and Mal when the war ended, and they went their seperate ways. Wasn't never no good at life, anyhow... Couldn't seem to make sense of it... Always running scared...

Anyways that's my take on it. There's probably a lot of things to contest in it ... I have to go watch that episode again with the commentary on. =)

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Tuesday, October 25, 2005 12:44 PM

QUEENOFTHENORTH

This is my take on the plot hole of not telling Tracey the plan: I don't think Mal had a plan when Tracey pointed the gun. I think Book was the one with the plan and he hadn't told Mal yet. This would explain to me why Mal hesitated so long before he agreed with Book that their only option was to hand over Tracey. Had Mal actually had a plan at that point, he wouldn't have hesitated. I think Book had the plan and was about to tell Tracey so before Tracey threatened to shoot him. Also, they didn't know that plan was going to work. It wasn't exactly the best plan ever. Anyways, that's my take and this is still one of my fave eps, for reasons listed in the fave eps thread.

~~~~~~~
Man walks down the street in a hat like that, people know he's not afraid of anything.

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Monday, November 14, 2005 6:03 PM

GGREEN29

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
* The whole theme of this episode is something that was just beginning as a story arc, and given the cancellation, and shift in emphasis with the movies, something I fear won't see follow through. I'm talking about the idea that Mal can't be entirely content with the path he's chosen. The episode brings home the fact that Mal and crew, despite their various heroic qualites, are thieves and killers.

That's why I love the scene near the beginning of the movie when River comes down and says to Mal "Do you [know your role]? Mal's response breaks my heart when he says "This is what I do darling...this is what I do." His pain is clear; his life--the universe-- didn't turn out anyway near the way he expected. He lives on the edge astrally and morally, regularly dealing with and depending on unsavory and untrustworthy folk.

The thing that I like most about this episode is the combat camaraderie demonstrated when Zoe and Mal first lift Tracy's coffin and Book steps in to help; the way Zoe says "We got him" I think conveys the sense of duty the vets feel for each other, even if they mayn't have liked each other. Later in the dispensary, when Tracy is on the floor and looks up and sees Zoe, she replies by saying "Private." Not "hi, how are ya", or addressing him by name but "Private [yer screwed up as usual]."

Then the death scene on the ship near the end, when Zoe and Mal stay by him as he goes. They stay by him not because they like him, but because he was one of theirs and they're duty bound to do it. It never occurs to them not to. Those are the main reasons this is one of my favorite episodes and I don't even give any thought to the plot.

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