how did river get the gun? by est120

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

how did river get the gun?

POSTED BY: EST120
UPDATED: Thursday, November 24, 2005 23:09
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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 2:11 AM

in objects in space, how did river get the gun? if river was perceiving the gun to be a tree branch, then she probably did not have it until she stepped on it in the cargo hold, but jayne claims he never leaves his guns around and certainly not loaded. is jayne lying to remove blame? did river subconsciously go into his room? i guess the most logical explanation is that jayne is not being honest, but what does everyone think?

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 2:30 AM

KNIBBLET

River seems to experience fugue states - who knows what goes on in that interesting brain when she's off exploring the black of her own mind.

I think she stepped right into Jayne's bunk and took it. His method of 'locking up' weapons seems to be storing them behind a tatty blanket.

I had better security on my first diary since I hid that sacred text beneath my mattress. This gave me two blankets, sheets and a layer of softness - many more layers of security than Jayne utilizes.

"I'm gonna rip you a new puppet hole, bitch!"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 2:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
River seems to experience fugue states - who knows what goes on in that interesting brain when she's off exploring the black of her own mind.

I think she stepped right into Jayne's bunk and took it. His method of 'locking up' weapons seems to be storing them behind a tatty blanket.

I had better security on my first diary since I hid that sacred text beneath my mattress. This gave me two blankets, sheets and a layer of softness - many more layers of security than Jayne utilizes.

"I'm gonna rip you a new puppet hole, bitch!"

'Locked up' could simply mean the door to his room was locked.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 10:36 AM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

It's a writing mistake. Jayne is not a skillful liar, and Adam plays it as if he's telling the truth, but in the Message, Tracy picks up a loaded gun, one of two laying there unattended. Even if they aren't Jayne's, loaded guns laying around is hardly cause for comment.

The dialogue about guns is just to set up Mal's last line where, glaring, he steps close to Jayne & says, in a low voice, "Is that the direction you want this conversation to go in?", reminding Jayne & us about Ariel, and pointing up that Simon & River haven't figured it out yet (that happens in Trash). If anyone realized that Jayne's statement was contradicted by several scenes earlier in the series, I guess the payoff was just too good to pass up.

Keep the Shiny Side Up . . . (wutzon) Dickey Betts & Warren Haynes, "Willie & Poor Bob", from "the Guitars That Rule the World"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 10:51 AM

STEVETHEPIRATE

Don't forget, Trash comes before OiS in the narrative. Simon and River knew about what Jayne tried to do on Ariel, but Mal was the only other one that did. That line was in reference to everyone else on the ship, in particular Zoe and Wash, since they were the only other ones on the bridge at the time.

----------------------------------------------
"MY APOCALYPTIC TENOR HAS NOT BEEN DISPELLED!" - T-Rex ( www.qwantz.com)

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 11:01 AM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by STEVEthePIRATE:
Don't forget, Trash comes before OiS in the narrative.

There are a lot of threads dedicated to order, but the majority opinion on this site is reflected on the left side of the home page.

Keep the Shiny Side Up . . . (wutzon) Stones, "Love In Vain", from "Let It Bleed"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 11:09 AM

BIKISDAD

Quote:
Originally posted by STEVEthePIRATE:
Don't forget, Trash comes before OiS in the narrative. Simon and River knew about what Jayne tried to do on Ariel, but Mal was the only other one that did. That line was in reference to everyone else on the ship, in particular Zoe and Wash, since they were the only other ones on the bridge at the time.

Yes, exactly. Although, while Jayne knows that Mal knows and Jayne knows that Simon and River know; Mal doesn't know that Simon and River know. So Mal thinks he's the only one who knows about Jayne's betrayal at that point. He basically thinks he's keeping Jayne's secret from the whole crew.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 11:18 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by YT:
It's a writing mistake. Jayne is not a skillful liar, and Adam plays it as if he's telling the truth, but in the Message, Tracy picks up a loaded gun, one of two laying there unattended. Even if they aren't Jayne's, loaded guns laying around is hardly cause for comment.

The dialogue about guns is just to set up Mal's last line where, glaring, he steps close to Jayne & says, in a low voice, "Is that the direction you want this conversation to go in?", reminding Jayne & us about Ariel, and pointing up that Simon & River haven't figured it out yet (that happens in Trash). If anyone realized that Jayne's statement was contradicted by several scenes earlier in the series, I guess the payoff was just too good to pass up.

I have to say you couldn't be more wrong - the whole exchange was carefully considered, and Adam's choice is correct - Jayne was:

1) Being honest. He doesn't leave loaded guns around. Other people may, he doesn't.
2) Making sure he didn't get the blame - and inadvertenly walking into more trouble. Totally in keeping with the character and the continuity.

It wasn't a cheap "gag" - that script is incredibly layered.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 11:44 AM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
Other people may, he doesn't.

Do you know something Mal doesn't? Why does he chew Jayne out when River happens to pick up one of his guns, instead of one of the others laying around?

Keep the Shiny Side Up . . . (wutzon) Hendrix, "Hear My Train a Comin' ", from "Live @Fillmore East"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 12:01 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by YT:
Do you know something Mal doesn't? Why does he chew Jayne out when River happens to pick up one of his guns, instead of one of the others laying around?

Jayne knows it wasn't his gun (whether it was or wasn't) - that's why he says it.

Mal chews Jayne out because Jayne asks for it - they don't get on; who else's gun would it be in Mal's mind?

Not his, clearly.
Not Zoe's, he wouldn't even think that.
That leaves just Jayne.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 2:18 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by YT:
There are a lot of threads dedicated to order, but the majority opinion on this site is reflected on the left side of the home page.

Keep the Shiny Side Up . . . (wutzon) Stones, "Love In Vain", from "Let It Bleed"

Are you sure about that one? I mean, it's not worth an argument, but I was always under the impression the episode listing on the home page was the order of production, since at the time the list was compiled correct narrative order was unknown.

Since then, Joss has stated several times that the correct narrative order is the one on the DVD's. Did I miss something?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 2:22 PM

SHINYSEVEN

Hey, Knibblet-did your diary ever say "Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy"?

1. I don't ship Rayne, but some people do--in which case Jayne *surely* would not want an investigation of when River was in his bunk
2. It could have been *Book*'s gun maintained in case a hostile kneecap drifted past
3. Someone could have scavenged Dobson's gun (in fact we've seen Jayne snurching things); he might feel that it was accurate to deny that it was his gun if it was Dobson's and he merely informally inherited it.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 3:15 PM

DUCESTECUM

Having read the responses that followed your question I thought I would put in a word. I just watched OIS again a couple of days ago. It was my understanding that there was no question about whose gun it was, that it definitely belonged to Jayne.

"And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling."

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 4:15 PM

TALLGRRL

Quote:
Originally posted by YT:
It's a writing mistake. Jayne is not a skillful liar, and Adam plays it as if he's telling the truth, but in the Message, Tracy picks up a loaded gun, one of two laying there unattended. Even if they aren't Jayne's, loaded guns laying around is hardly cause for comment.

"writing mistake"? hardly.
jayne left his gun on the deck. might've been cleaning it, might've come back from a job and put it down to put away booty, and hadn't gotten back to picking it up and taking it back to his bunk. he knows better than to leave guns laying around...especially with river around. but he did.
he's not a skillful liar and he even said he was trying to steer the conversation away from "let's blame jayne". he had you convinced.

but not mal. mal knew what jayne did.
he's not gonna come out and say "oops. sorry." especially when it comes to mal.
it was a recipe for unpleasantness, and jayne didn't want to get the blame.
river was walking around. we saw her walking around. she saw the gun laying on the deck. we saw her see it. she saw it as a twig, and picked it up. we saw her do that.
the gun didn't materialize.
she wasn't carrying it around.

"Take me, sir. Take me hard." -- Zoe

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 4:37 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by Tallgrrl:
jayne left his gun on the deck.

You're missing the point.

Quote:
Originally posted by YT:
loaded guns laying around is hardly cause for comment.

Jayne's Desert Eagle (I knew it was his as soon as I saw it) isn't the only loaded gun laying around for someone else to pick up, in Firefly.

Keep the Shiny Side Up . . . (wutzon) Grateful Dead, "Playing In the Band", from "Dick's Picks vol 14"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 4:46 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
it's not worth an argument, but I was always under the impression the episode listing on the home page was the order of production, since at the time the list was compiled correct narrative order was unknown.

Not an argument, just a contrary impression. And now that you have called it into question, I can't recall when or how I came by that impression.

Keep the Shiny Side Up . . . (wutzon) Stones, "It's All Over Now", from "12 x 5"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 4:53 PM

CLAUDIUS

If River can kill Jayne with her brain, presumably, then what is to stop the gun from just being there using here "brainpower"
Yes I know this sounds goofy but I say this:

A LOADED GUN IS NOT LEFT LOOSE ON THE DECK OF A SHAKEY SPACESHIP

All those people on board should know how DANGEROUS A GUN IS
and someone would notice that gun where it was, its not hidden or anything

Ever heard the term "loose cannon" this is a similar (yet not exactly the same) case
In my opinion this is the only logical answer

I am sorry for all the caps lock stuff, just trying to get my point across

=================================================
Wash: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
Zoe: We live in a space ship, dear.
===============================================

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Thursday, June 9, 2005 8:45 AM

KIZZIECSTARS

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Thursday, June 9, 2005 8:45 AM

KIZZIECSTARS

it is definately a valid point.

maybe someone on the crew took it out of jayne's "stash" and left it there by accident, but then didn't want to own up and have everyone blame them - if jayne aint a good liar, maybe he really is telling the truth.

just a thought...

two by two...

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Thursday, June 9, 2005 9:17 AM

BLUEBOMBER

This exact issue was debated in another thread some time ago, but I can't remember which one...Somebody brought up the idea that River somehow read Jayne's mind for the combination to his locker, went into and got the gun, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Nor am I convinced that the gun was 'just laying there' in the middle of the floor where she could pick it up. The whole situation to me is one of those I just take it at face value. The scene may be taken literally, then again it may not be. Who can fathom the mind of River?

"Mwah ha ha ha...mine is an evil laugh. Now die."

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Thursday, June 9, 2005 9:43 AM

OHIOBROWNCOAT

In the commentary Joss speaks of items having meaning. There were many "twigs" many "leaves" but River picked up this one - the gun. I have not replayed the scenes over and over to tell but I figure this was either Dobson's gun that was pointed at her head in the pilot or the gun River shot the three men at Niska's. Either of these guns would have created a new meaning to River. Thoughts?

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Thursday, June 9, 2005 11:09 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by OhioBrowncoat:
In the commentary Joss speaks of items having meaning. There were many "twigs" many "leaves" but River picked up this one - the gun. I have not replayed the scenes over and over to tell but I figure this was either Dobson's gun that was pointed at her head in the pilot or the gun River shot the three men at Niska's. Either of these guns would have created a new meaning to River. Thoughts?

Couple of options:

1) River has some tk mojo as well as being a reader - who knows?
2) The whole sequence is about perceived reality - River perceives she is watching people's conversations, that they can see her (and sometimes they can't), then she perceives the gun on the floor - doesn't mean that it wasn't always in her hand, or that the "conscious" River dropped it in recoil, to have the "unconscious" curious River pick it up.

I like 2) better, but maybe there is something in "also, I can kill you with my mind" more than just tweaking at Jayne.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Thursday, June 9, 2005 8:54 PM

CLAUDIUS

I like #2 too

=================================================
Book: I am a shepherd. Folks like a man of God.
Mal: No, they don't. Men of God make everyone feel guilty and judged.
===============================================

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 2:21 AM

SUBGUY

Quote:
Originally posted by Tallgrrl:
river was walking around. we saw her walking around. she saw the gun laying on the deck. we saw her see it. she saw it as a twig, and picked it up. we saw her do that.
the gun didn't materialize.
she wasn't carrying it around.

Also keep in mind, we did not see the rest of the crew around River until we saw she was holding a gun and they were all trying to get it away from her, so who could say we just didn't see her get the gun out of storage, whether it was in Jayne's room or somewhere else on the ship. I really don't think it was just laying on the deck as the scene may have made it appear.

Captain Pete
"What can Brown do for you?"

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 7:00 AM

TALLGRRL

Quote:
Originally posted by Claudius:
If River can kill Jayne with her brain, presumably, then what is to stop the gun from just being there using here "brainpower"
Yes I know this sounds goofy but I say this:

A LOADED GUN IS NOT LEFT LOOSE ON THE DECK OF A SHAKEY SPACESHIP

Not on purpose.
Look...SOMEONE--if not Jayne, then someone else-- left Jayne's gun on the deck and River happened upon it.
That's the point.
She didn't conjure it up, or was already walkin' around with it.
We saw her find it laying there. She saw it as a twig, and she picked it up.
And the brain-killin' thing?
I'm thinking that River, in a moment of lucid brattiness, told that to Jayne to fuck with him.
If she can't actually kill him with her brain, she can out-think him, for sure.

"Take me, sir. Take me hard." -- Zoe

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 7:30 AM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by STEVEthePIRATE:
Don't forget, Trash comes before OiS in the narrative. Simon and River knew about what Jayne tried to do on Ariel, but Mal was the only other one that did. That line was in reference to everyone else on the ship, in particular Zoe and Wash, since they were the only other ones on the bridge at the time.

And don't forget, there's no reason to think Mal knows that Simon and River know -- River picked it up directly from Jayne's mind, and neither's likely to spread the news around, provided Jayne stays a "good boy".

"Do you know what the definition of a hero is? It's somebody who gets somebody else killed." -- Zoë Warren

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 9:41 AM

CLAUDIUS

Quote:

Not on purpose.
Look...SOMEONE--if not Jayne, then someone else-- left Jayne's gun on the deck and River happened upon it.

Alright then but still if a loaded gun is left there alone on the deck, what are the odds that someone else would not have noticed it, and put it away. A gun loose on deck is an obvious safety hazard. So in order for it to be left there and for nobody to take care of it would mean that nobody passed through that area from the time that gun was left there to when River picked it up. The seems implausable to me, because that area is a central part of the the ship, but I admit that it is possible.

=================================================
Book: I am a shepherd. Folks like a man of God.
Mal: No, they don't. Men of God make everyone feel guilty and judged.
===============================================

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 11:57 AM

TALLGRRL

If you look at the episode from the beginning, River is asleep. She wakes up and starts walking around. Simon and Kaylee are chatting in the lounge, Wash is on the bridge and Zoe is there...keeping him company (wink)...Jayne and Book are elsewhere on the ship. Inara is most likely in her shuttle, Mal could be anywhere.
No one seems to be in the cargo bay, but apparently someone walked in and saw River holding a gun...that she saw as a twig...and called out for help, because River with a gun is NOT good.
Like I said, it might have been laid down to be picked up in a bit.
You put something down with the intentions of doing what you need to do real quickly and coming right back.
I'm sticking with Jayne put it down with the intentions of coming to pick it right back up, but got distracted, whatever.
It happens. Things like that happen.
People with toddlers put scissors on a coffee table for a quick moment. People do all manner of stuff they know better not to do. And that's how accidents happen. Bad accidents, like the kind where River hands someone a "twig"...and accidentally shoots them.
All I'm saying is that River didn't go get it...and it didn't just appear from nowhere.

"Take me, sir. Take me hard." -- Zoe

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 2:46 PM

CLAUDIUS

Okay, Okay....
But why was it left there, and for how long?

That's all I want to know

=================================================
Wash: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
Zoe: We live in a space ship, dear.
===============================================

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:01 PM

TMURRIE

During War Stories when River shot those guys (when Serenity had rammed into Niska's skyplex), she took the gun from Kaylee, River dropped the gun, and Kaylee was too shocked to even notice River left the gun there. Is it just me, or didn't they explain this in OiS?

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:48 PM

LADYSTARHAWK

I suppose it’s possible that the gun had been forgotten there from War stories. But I doubt it could have been left there for that long with no one noticing a nice bright shiny gun lying there in the cargo bay. And I can’t believe Jayne would not notice one of his guns was missing for that length of time. Possible, but not very probable.

I guess I always thought that she had gone into Jayne's bunk at some point and gotten it herself.

She walks through the whole ship and sees everyone, but no one sees her. Nobody talks to her, or even says "hi", not even her brother. I believe she was physically in the cargo bay the whole time, we just see her mentally going through the ship. She had already gotten the gun from Jayne's bunk and loaded it herself. She might not have even consciously known she was doing it. It could have been her mind trying to make sense of things on its own. We pick up "real life" with someone noticing her and the gun in the cargo bay and snapping her out of her reverie.

If you look at the wide shot when she finds the “stick” there's another stick very similar a little ways away from her too. She might have stepped on something else, looked at it, and then noticed the gun in her hand. She wasn’t seeing things for what they were, so it’s possible other things looked like sticks as well.

Jayne's never been a good liar, at any point in the series. The only time he even covers up what he's thinking is when he's double-crossing them, the rest of the time he seems to say what he thinks when he thinks it (part of why I like him).

Jayne seems like the kind to take care of his weaponry. I can't imagine him leaving one of his guns around, even accidentally. He might not be too smart, but he's very good at what he does. He cares about his tools and takes very good care of them. I just can't picture Jayne leaving one of his guns lying around. Plus, you don't leave a gun loaded when it's not going to be used because it's not good for the hardware.

It may look like he's got them all out on display for the world to see, but I have a feeling he keeps his bunk locked, and if he was smart (and when I comes to weapons I know he is) he'd keep the ammo locked up in a different place from his “gun rack”. At my uncle’s place I know that the ammo is securely locked up in the basement, even though the pretty glass guncase is in the living room. Even if Jayne’s guns are available, the ammo wouldn't be. River has shown some unique talents over the course of the series, and I have a feeling picking locks isn't beyond her abilities.

Now, I admit, Jayne's my favorite character in the series, so I might be a bit biased, but I honestly think we need to "move this conversation in a 'not Jayne's fault' direction". He takes care of his guns. If he didn’t he wouldn’t be able to do his job, seeing as how being intimidating and shooting stuff are his main assets to the team.

I blame the crazy girl that can read people's minds, sees guns as sticks, and kills people with math.

Lady Starhawk
Beware of the run-on sentence

My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 1:38 AM

PRETTYINPINK

This is just something I saw posted elsewhere (the Official movie site I think), but the point was made that in Out of Gas Mal pulls one of Jaynes' guns that was taped under his work out bench. Maybe this is not the same gun, but it is possible that Jayne has more than one gun stashed away around the hold or anywhere on the ship for emergencies. Just a thought.

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 4:56 AM

TALLGRRL

Quote:
Originally posted by Claudius:
Okay, Okay....
But why was it left there, and for how long?

That's all I want to know

=================================================
Wash: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
Zoe: We live in a space ship, dear.
===============================================

It doesn't matter WHY it was left there.
(And as far as it being there from OoG, the episodes are not real-time, day to day. By the time we reach OiS, OoG could have been weeks hence. "Trash" takes place almost 6 months later than "Our Mrs Reynolds".)
And it was left there long enough for it to be found...by the wrong person.
By the way, River is walking around the ship very quietly. She doesn't go into the rooms where people are talking and...whatever.
Simon and Kaylee don't see her, but she hears and sees them.
Zoe and Wash definitely don't see her...but she feels them.
Jayne and Book don't see her, but she sees and hears them.

If Joss...or any writer...had to do that much explanation, the story would never get told.
What you need to know, you're told.
The rest (who left the gun and why)is up to you.
Me? Knowing what I know about the crew and the ship...and knowing what I know at my age about human nature...it is plausible to me that Jayne--or someone--accidentally left a gun laying around.
Had River not been on the ship, it wouldn't have been that big a deal. Mal would have been annoyed, but not angry and scared.

"Take me, sir. Take me hard." -- Zoe

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 8:09 AM

MER

What if River seperated herself from her mind? Her mind is going through the ship while her physical body is going through Jayne's bunk, getting his gun and ammo to go to the cargo bay.

Her mind eventually comes back to her physical body as a way of snapping out of it (since everybody's yelling at her to drop the gun for god knows how long).

And didn't Joss say she subconsciously knew Early was going to get on the ship? Maybe she was on her way to where he was and the crew saw her in time before she could use the gun.

Either way, I hope Serenity explains how her body works. Maybe we could put two and two together on this without the reading between the lines ^-^;;

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Friday, August 5, 2005 10:03 AM

JACQUI

In "War Stories" we're clearly shown that there is a cabinet in the cargo bay for guns and ammo together.

It's entirely plausible that she was able to get into that cabinet. Meaning that no one actually left guns lying around willy nilly.

I find it hard to believe Jayne would just leave a gun, or any weapon, by itself in the cargo bay like that. He does keep them handy (ie: in 'Shindig' he has a gun sitting on the weight bench as he does chin ups), but I doubt he would have walked away and left it there.

As for not knowing who found her with the gun and how long she was alone with it... I've only ever seen the DVD version (I'm a late comer to the fandom), so I always assumed it was Mal and Inara on the stairs, where she would have been perfectly visible the whole time.

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Saturday, October 15, 2005 5:54 AM

SONMICA

Imho, the point is that River sees the twig/gun as harmless. She's curious about it, but she doesn't think it's dangerous. A twig could be many things to many people. It could be a weapon or a tool. It could be a toy. Anyway, River looks at it as if it comforts her.

If she had to go into Jayne's bunk or a gun cabinet or something, load the gun, take the lock off, just so she can gaze at it like it was a harmless but interesting object, that would sort of defeat the point.

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Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:56 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD

It seemed like no one noticed River when she was walking around the ship so it could have been some sort of clairvoyant ability of hers, being able to perceive things beyond the range of the five senses or it could mean that she didn’t want to be seen. Plus her telepathic abilities seems to be involuntary so it is possible that she was unconsciously channeling something into the minds of the people around her and somehow clouded their perception.

River didn't notice the branch until she stepped on it and it snapped, which could mean that the gun went off which alerted the entire crew.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Thursday, November 3, 2005 7:06 AM

CORNCOBROB

i dont know if anyone else said this i read most of the posts, but when river steps on the twig, it is the only twig on the ship. only AFTER she picks up the twig, does the bay become filled with brush. what that represents i have no idea, but it is clear the gun is laying on the floor, in between crates and a set of stairs.

also there are pleanty of loaded weapons 'laying' around on the cargo hold. dont forget the eppisode when the life support fails,

Select to view spoiler:

and Mal lets those people on the ship, and gets shot. when the salvegers backs are turned he grabs the gun off the quad.

GIANTEVILHEAD i like that possibility. it makes alot of sence. why else would EVERYONE have been alerted and on the ground in seconds

The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry

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Thursday, November 3, 2005 11:18 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD

I wonder why River didn't get into Kaylee's head.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Friday, November 4, 2005 9:25 AM

GILTHANASS

Here is my take on the matter. umm, possible spoilers underneath? (I don't know what counts as spoilers)

Anyway, river was obviously "programed" by the alliance. The way I see it, something in her head snapped, and she started to initiate one of her programs. Her body went, got a gun, loaded it, etc. At that time, the river that we know was kind of "locked out" of her body. It was then that the wandering around hte ship happened. As has been mentioned, this never happened, it was her mind going free of her body, and noticing everyone around her (I think kaili wasn't there because she is innocent, she has no secrets). Now, her mind rejoined her body when she stepped on the twig (setting off the gun, putting her concious back in control). She picks up the twig like a child, because she "the innocent core river" does not get it. She does not get the gun. Then everyone yells at her.

So basically, I think her programing was set off, and that is what it is like from rivers perspective when that happens.

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Friday, November 4, 2005 11:24 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD

River didn't just get secrets from people's heads, she "felt" Zoe and Wash but she didn't get anything from Kaylee.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Friday, November 4, 2005 1:06 PM

MIRAMEL

gilthanass, i defanitly like that idea. seems plausable

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 2:19 AM

FREDIKAYLLOW

i think the whole mind detachment thing is probably the most plausible explanation, i just have one small problem- i don't think the gun went off. it might be that fact that Mal said the gun was fully loaded, though i don't know if that means that the clip was full, or just not not empty. also, i think that the crews reaction's would have been even more extreme had she actually fired the gun.
Is it just me, or does her line "It's just an object, it doesn't mean what you think" not quite seem right?? It just seems that that whole beginning is an insight into her mind, and then she comes out with this cryptic comment that's a little bit... i dunno. maybe I'm just reading into things a bit too much.

No Power In The 'Verse Can Stop Me

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Thursday, November 10, 2005 8:21 PM

ALAND

As Early was following them, he probably moved in shortly after they left a planet. The gun was hidden away in the cargo bay, or had fallen behind a crate or slid under something and was forgotten. A bumpy exit from the planet's atmosphere jarred it loose, and it slid out into the open. River was the first to find it.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 3:04 AM

REDREAVER

i'd be inclined to believe Jayne. if there's one thing he's smart enough not to like it's the idea of the crazy girl with a gun.

if the blame went to Jayne, must have been his weapon.

and if we all remember in Out Of Gas there's a gun in holster slung on the mule in the cargo hold, i presume loaded.

now all i need is a big gun and a "very fine hat"...

Reavers ate my homework

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 7:51 AM

SHREW

Serenity is a pirate/merc/smuggler ship. I am quite sure while a gun would not be left "laying around" that there are some strapped in specific places in case of on board ugliness. I do seem to remember Mal (when the ship was derelict in space) getting a gun that was strapped to a container. Even Inara has a gun. I think everyone had a gun EXCEPT the Tams.
Jayne is not going to lie to Mal about something that is basically trivial to him. He takes care of his weapons. He would not leave them laying around and nor would he deny which are his. Guns cost money. If anything if it WAS his gun he would use the incident as an excuse to further his cause to kick the Tams off the ship. While he never accepts blame he will subtly admit the truth while throwing the blame on someone else.
As far as River entering a fugue state and stealing the gun... No. When she has her spells they tend toward violence not petty theft.

Shrew

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Thursday, November 17, 2005 7:58 AM

LILKRISTY

Quote:
Fredikayllow said
i don't think the gun went off. it might be that fact that Mal said the gun was fully loaded, though i don't know if that means that the clip was full, or just not not empty. also, i think that the crews reaction's would have been even more extreme had she actually fired the gun.

I thonk you have a good point. Maybe the twig snapping is the sound of the gun being cocked.

I like the whole program being set off too. That seems to mesh the best with what we know about Serenity and River.

I just can't picture a gun lying on the floor of the cargo hold in plain sight for any legenth of time. Also, while Jayne migh not be the brightest bulb in the box I can think that a mercernary who casually left guns lying around fully loaded would live very long.

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Thursday, November 17, 2005 8:22 AM

CHRISISALL

I agree that it wasn't her (in body) goin' around the ship, so who knows WHERE she really was *COUGH/into Jayne's guns*- excuse me.
It seems to me she has a mind that is not only capable of multi-tasking, it demands to be used so. The leaves and twigs could have been all the stuff in the ship she came across, and that twig-snapping sound could have been the lock on a gunbox being forced in Jayne's room, and then she walked on a bit more before being spotted...

Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 17, 2005 10:41 AM

SCHOONER

IMHO, the whole sequence makes a great deal of sense if you view River as an incomplete weapon who's training programs can operate without her conscious understanding, and assume she has a sort of ability to separate her mind and body.

In the opening shot, River wakes up when she 'hears' Early's voice. She immediately recognizes a threat, not just an unexpected presense, and responds as a weapon. Her training kicks in to orchestrate a defense. This has three parts: determine if any other threats exist; obtain necessary equipment; and find a location from which to receive the threat. Requesting assistance is not part of the plan because River's creators planned her for more covert ops than police or military (I'm of that opionion for a few reasons, but there're not that important here).

Part one involves using River's psychic abilities to read the state and intentions of exeryone else in the area, to fully assess the extent of the threat she is already aware of. This requires judgement, emotion, and knowledge of people, so this is where River's personality is allocated. We see her 'projecting', and seeking out the rest of the crew. River's problem is that she is not fully aware of why she is doing it, or even that she is doing it. Her programming is telling her to probe for hidden agendas, so she is getting everyone's secrets even though she doesn't know why.

Part two requires physically optaining something without anyone noticing. No personality is needed, just a body. River's body is probably on automatic pilot like at the Maidenhead, except in 'insertion mode'. Sneaking around using a route so she won't be seen by anyone, she gets to the weapons locker, or Jayne's bunk, and selects the best weapon for the task. A semi-automatic handgun makes sense here. With the skill and precision River has, she doesn't need autofire. Range is not a factor onboard ship. She needs something that she can aim quickly, in order to change targets, and that packs enough of a punch to damage what she hits and maybe cut through armor. So, Jayne's bug shiny pistol fits the bill.

Part three, location, is why River ends up in the middle of the cargo bay. For river with a pistol, it is the most defensible location. She has an open space around her, and line of sight to all entrances. No low ceilings or vents for an enemy to drop from. Anyone wanting to get close would have to cross her line of fire to get to her.

So far, a good plan. The problem comes when River's mind and body come together again. She is not a complete programmed weapon, she is an innocent, scared girl. When River re-integrates, she does not know what to make of what her subconscious has been doing. My speculation is that when her mind and body meet up, she drops the gun and that is the soud she interprets as a twig snapping. It is also what alerts the rest of the crew. The hallucination of twigs and petals may be River trying to interpret whatever programming is still running in her head: collating variables, constructing fractal decision trees, and formulating contingency plans. Her statement, "it's just an object" may be her acknowledging to herself that this is not real, that she needs to bring herslef back. When she does come back fully, she's holding a loaded gun and her freinds are freaking out.

I think River is a victim of her programming, and her incomplete knowledge of what she is capable of. If she had been 'completed' like her captors wanted (unconscionable as that would be), she might have just stayed, unmoving, in the middle of the cargo bay with a gun hidden on her until Jubal Early peered into the bay, then shot the bounty hunter through the eye before he knew what was happening.

Just my take on it.

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Thursday, November 17, 2005 11:35 AM

SLOWSMURF

Wow.

I can only hope Joss thought that far ahead, because that's good. The only part I might disagree on is defensible location, though for River it might be. It's one of the worst places on the ship she could be otherwise.

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