Objects in Space Question by Light1984

Quote:
Originally posted by MisterDrgn:
I'd say she was definitely reading their minds. Pretty much all of the things she read were out of character because no character acts the same way they think. Book's line was rather mysterious, but then Book's always been mysterious.

I tend to agree with you. How someone acts can be completely different from how they think.

Plus, like you said, Book is quite a mystery.

~~
Also... I can kill you with my brain.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:56 PM

This issue has been discussed many times on this board and the overwhelming consensus is that River is reading pasts and futures of the characters.

Jayne's comment is from the past when he was trapped in the airlock in the episode Ariel.

Simon's comment is delivered to Kaylee in OIS after the dinning room meeting breaks up and he and kaylee are alone in the passageway. He delivers the line "I would be there right now" then moves to kiss Kaylee and Book steps in the way.

Book's comment is from dark deeds in his past. Most people think he delivers this line to a captive Independence soldier during the Unification War. Since the show didn't continue we never got the flashback sequence to shed light on it.

Inara's comment refers to the theory that she is sick, possibly terminal. This was what she said to her doctor prior to learning the bad news.

Mal's comment is the grandest mystery and could mean anything.

One thing all the comments have in common is that they all represent dark secrets the characters are hiding. Also important is the fact that Kaylee delivers no line. Joss said of Kaylee that she wears all her emotions on her sleeve. She has no dark secrets that River could read. This is also why River feels most at ease with Kaylee and when she is sane she plays at being a girly girl with Kaylee (Playing jacks and talking about boys....Running with apples...ect)

River was projecting when she saw the readings. At the episodes outset she is hearing the voices of the other 8 crew members as she sleeps. She is at home with these people and their thoughts comfort her. Then Early's voice cuts off the other voices (Early says "We're all just floating") and that's when River snaps awake. Early doesn't belong. She then proceeds to take a psychic journey through Serenity. Joss made a point to show River's bare feet to us to illistrate how connected she is to everything, Serenity included. The crew does not react to her presence since she isn't there physically.

In regards to the vision statements the crew members deliver to her, there are lots of posts on each one deeper in the threads on this site.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
One thing all the comments have in common is that they all represent dark secrets the characters are hiding.

There's the homerun hit. That's exactly what it is. Dark secrets...

Plus, everything else you said was very IQ raising, thanks! :þ

«°-:-°»
Also... I can kill you with my brain.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gorbishun:
Quote:
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
One thing all the comments have in common is that they all represent dark secrets the characters are hiding.

There's the homerun hit. That's exactly what it is. Dark secrets...

Plus, everything else you said was very IQ raising, thanks! :þ

«°-:-°»
Also... I can kill you with my brain.

Well I don't think Simon's is particualrly dark or particularly a secret. Sure Simon wishes he could convince River that he didn't throw his previous conception of a life away for her but she was onto his little ruse as early as Safe. Otherwise spot on with the dirty secret thing.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Well I don't think Simon's is particualrly dark or particularly a secret. Sure Simon wishes he could convince River that he didn't throw his previous conception of a life away for her but she was onto his little ruse as early as Safe. Otherwise spot on with the dirty secret thing.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

It's true that he knows she knows he threw his previous life away to save her, but that's not what matters most. He tries to convince her that it's perfectly alright with him, that he doesn't care. He tries to hide any feelings of "homesickness." Not that he regrets saving River, but he obviously has remorse.

That, in Simon's mind, must be enough to agitate him to the point of River Picking up the "Signal."

«°-:-°»
Also... I can kill you with my brain.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gorbishun:
That, in Simon's mind, must be enough to agitate him to the point of River Picking up the "Signal."

Well yes but River already knew what he was trying to hide. I supose this could be an example of Simon being a boob though. Not realizing that River new he was putting up a front.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Well yes but River already knew what he was trying to hide. I supose this could be an example of Simon being a boob though. Not realizing that River new he was putting up a front.

Yea... I think you're right. River already knew but Simon, in his boob-like way, was still making a big deal out of it.

Not that it didn't upset River to hear, or feel, him think it.

«°-:-°»
Also... I can kill you with my brain.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gorbishun:
Not that it didn't upset River to hear, or feel, him think it.

Point taken.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:38 PM

TERRIFRIED

i don't understand how we're all picking up this vibe of how Inara is terminal

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by terrifried:
i don't understand how we're all picking up this vibe of how Inara is terminal

In the DVD commentary Tim Minear sugests that there is a clue to Inara's secret in Objects in Space. In that episode there is a moment between Simon and Inara in which Simon says, "I just don't want to die on it." or words to that effect and Inara replies, "I don't want to die at all." It's a bit of a stretch but if you add in the syrynge from Serenity the episode and her examination in Ariel and it's a more or less natural dot to connect.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:12 PM

TERRIFRIED

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Quote:
Originally posted by terrifried:
i don't understand how we're all picking up this vibe of how Inara is terminal

In the DVD commentary Tim Minear sugests that there is a clue to Inara's secret in Objects in Space. In that episode there is a moment between Simon and Inara in which Simon says, "I just don't want to die on it." or words to that effect and Inara replies, "I don't want to die at all." It's a bit of a stretch but if you add in the syrynge from Serenity the episode and her examination in Ariel and it's a more or less natural dot to connect.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

i'm thinking you're referring to "out of gas".

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by terrifried:
i'm thinking you're referring to "out of gas".

Yes I am. I throw myself on the mercy of the court citing lateness of the hour and highness of the blood alchohol level.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 6:48 AM

I always enjoy revisiting these old theories.

In regards to the "They aren't all dark secrets" issue raised above...you are correct. They aren't all "Dark". But in each case the character is conveying information to River that they seek to keep HIDDEN.

Simon's comment centers around his deep down desire to still be a trauma surgeon. While many of us would be willing to lay aside our desires for the love of another, we would still feel twinges of regret, through we might never admit it. Simon feels this way and it's only human.

Jayne's comment is born out of fear, pure and simple. He thinks there will still be a reprisal for his treason.

Book's comment, like I stated above, comes from Dark deeds of his past. There are entire threads devoted to Book's secrets but the cliffnotes are that he was involved in the Unification War on the side of the Alliance, most likely as an operative. His statement to river comes from that time.

Inara's comment is connected to Tim Minear's commentary in Out of Gas, that there is a secret Inara hides. It'll take me far to long to detail the specifics on this thread but I wrote about it here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=9&t=14866 Go to the last post.

Mal's Comment is (I think) related to a sadness involving loss due to the Unification War. But we'll never know the specifics. The posts regarding Mal's history are usually in reference to the Title Theme Song which is about Mal and his pain.

Now to further add value to River's state of mind in OIS. Do you recall what Simon said about her brain in Ariel? Her Amigdila was stripped layer by layer from her frontal Lobe. This is the part of her mind that allows her to push fears and thoughts to the back of her mind. Isn't it interesting that those are the precise types of thoughts she reads from the other characters in OIS?

River also quips all kinds of comments that sound crazy in the show but turn out to be very meaningful later. Like when she rips the labels of the cans in Shindig.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 7:12 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
This issue has been discussed many times on this board and the overwhelming consensus is that River is reading pasts and futures of the characters.

All due respect, but I'm not sure there's near the consensus you think...

My take on these things are that they're not so much "deep dark secrets" or "pasts/futures" as they as they are things that are deeply held parts of the characters (which in some cases can't see the light of day). These "visions" show the something held deeply in the core of the characters.

To elucidate:

Quote:
Jayne's comment is from the past when he was trapped in the airlock in the episode Ariel.

Not so much Jayne's past. This represents Jayne's genuine regret over what he did and/or his fear that the others will find out. It will never come to the surface because Jayne just will not allow himself to be this vulnerable.

Quote:
Simon's comment is delivered to Kaylee in OIS after the dinning room meeting breaks up and he and kaylee are alone in the passageway. He delivers the line "I would be there right now" then moves to kiss Kaylee and Book steps in the way.

Not sure how exactly you think that the "I would be there right now" line connects to the interrupted kiss. More likely represents Simon's deep regret that he had to leave the life of a medical professional. Don't care how good a reason he had. Part of him will always miss it (though he'd never admit that). Plus consider the context: telling Kaylee a story of the glory days of medical school (hence "I would be there [in that life] right now").

Quote:
Book's comment is from dark deeds in his past. Most people think he delivers this line to a captive Independence soldier during the Unification War. Since the show didn't continue we never got the flashback sequence to shed light on it.

Not so much an actual event as Book's inner attitude. Why do you think he's so devoted to the faith? Because he was hollow inside, at the deepest core of himself, and his faith is a way to keep that part of his personality from asserting itself.

Quote:
Inara's comment refers to the theory that she is sick, possibly terminal. This was what she said to her doctor prior to learning the bad news.

Mal's comment is the grandest mystery and could mean anything.

This one is the biggest pile of go se ever, and trying to pass it off as consensus is just wrong. My take on it (given the context, a discussion of Inara leaving) is that Inara's comment represents her desire to hear Mal just come right out and tell her his feelings (which she can't ask him to do). Mal's comment refers to his consternation that despite the relationship he's built with Inara, she's leaving--"None of it means a damn thing". This can also never be expressed, because Mal can't let his true feelings be known.

Quote:
One thing all the comments have in common is that they all represent dark secrets the characters are hiding.

If that's the case, what's Wash and Zoe's dark secret? That they're in love? That they have hot loving relations with each other? Don't forget, River "read" them, too. And what was at their core was a complete abandonment to each other. No dark secret there.

Quote:
Also important is the fact that Kaylee delivers no line. Joss said of Kaylee that she wears all her emotions on her sleeve.

Again, right but wrong. It's not that Kaylee has no secrets (everybody's got secrets). It's that at her core, Kaylee just is who she is. She doesn't hide things, cause she doesn't need to. She just is who she is.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 8:30 AM

Causal,

I liked you better as inevitablebetrayel. That is, if you were the same login I colaberated with in 2004 regarding this series.

Firstly, You rebuke things I write then defend statements with a re-hash of what I just wrote.

Second, many things I wrote are backed up by the panel discussions with Jewel and Morenna at the 2005 DragonCon in Atlanta. Morenna came right up to saying that Inara was sick and stopped short because of proprietary issues in the fact that the show isn't 100% dead. One questioner asked "Is Inara sick and what does the needle have to do with it, if anything?" Morenna: "I...um...Well, I cannot talk about that sorry. (then to assembled firefly masses) But everybody I promise that if the show is over I'll tell you all what the secret is and I assure you it's awsome" (Some cheering from crowd) Jewel talked for about 40 seconds on how Joss was always directing her to wear her emotions on her sleeve. One thing she cited was her line in the film "I ain't had naught twixt my nethers weren't run on batteries" and how she felt like she wanted to deliver it at a half-whisper like normal ppl might do in public. Joss called cut to tell her to just let it out because KAYLEE HIDES NOTHING.

Joss is the king of the misdirect. "I'm a big girl, just tell me" certainly seems like a direct thought towards mal and feelings of endearment between the two. I, in fact, blindly assumed that myself when I first watched OIS. But as I considered what was going on I changed my mind. It doesn't make sense that River reads something like that from Inara then gets something so oddly different from Book. Have you noticed the abrupt scene cut from Book's statement and the laughter he is gut-bellowing at Jayne as he chops food? The point being made here is that he isn't thinking anything remotely related to his "river reading" Why do you believe Inara is somehow magically different?

Too many people fall into the trap that they think River is reading direct thoughts off minds. And it's an easy trap to fall into because it was crafted by Joss Whedon, a man I consider to be one of the 4 greatest storytellers of my time. Simon's statement comes just after he describes med-school hijinks to kaylee and then looks at river. We are led to assume that the next logical thought would be to regret the move and "I would be there right now" supports that. OK, I can so far buy the "surface thoughts" theory. Next we get Jayne in the dinning area. He stops what he's doing, looks directly at river with mild fear to say "I got stupid the money was too good"

OK so far so good in regards to your opinion.

But now you must explain why Book's comment is so radically different. It cannot be explained at all if River is reading common surface thoughts. And your assertion that his comment is an "inner attitude" is worse go se than anything in my previous post. Book is the lynchpin of the new theory that these aren't surface thoughts at all. Like I said above, the sudden cut to Book's laughter is vital. Joss uses scene cuts to drive home points all the time. Examples: Credits at the end of "Hush" in season 4 buffy. Drama tension in season 5 "The Body". The end of the song "Mrs" in season 7 buffy. Book isn't thinking about "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?" And this comment from him has nothing to do with an overall inner attitude.

So now one must consider that perhaps these aren't surface thoughts at all. And when you think "Wait, Jayne's comment was delivered to Mal in the airlock!" that's when the joss-awe sets in. You cannot convince me that Inara's comment had the slightest thing to do with Mal. That's the direct line of thinking and it cannot be correct. Plus one item you're not considering is Tim Minear's comment in the Out of Gas Commentary about Inara.

Your comment about Wash and Zoe means naught since they didn't say anything to River. Although I have always wanted to hear what Zoe would have said had she been given the chance.

The interupted kiss had nothing to do with Simon's statement to River. What I was saying is to re-watch that scene and you'll hear Simon deliver the line.

The problem with a thread like this is that there are so many intertwined issues that could each possess their own thread. You cannot get the full picture of the "What is river seeing in OIS" issue without crossing into the "Inara's secret" question and the "Book's dark past" mystery. You can't get boresighted on a grove of trees and ignore the forest all around. But that's what happens because the show's so complex with intertwined themes. The core of the problem here is in not considering all the evidence in regards to Inara's secret and assuming she was delivering a "Mal centered" line of thinking comment to River rather than a much broader, awe inspiring theme.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 8:41 AM

CAUSAL

Wow. I'm never responding to one of your posts again. I present my opinions and get flamed for them? What--are you the only one allowed to have interpretations? Or are you just that sure that you're right?

Whatever the case, I don't care. Forget I asked.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 8:44 AM

It was no flame. I stated only true things. There is no implied negative tone.

However, I will point out that you slung the first go se comment.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 9:10 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
However, I will point out that you slung the first go se comment.

Point. The terrible thing about these blasted machines is that all you get are the words. No inflection, no body language, no nothing. Leaves a broad interpretive range, dontha think?

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:43 AM

TWODIFSOKS

Hey guys...Remember this is all in good fun. Everyone has their opinions.

Just to put it into perspective.

I have been floundering. I love Firefly but after a little bit of time you tend to focus your love to other places. It’s even harder with no new episodes to look forward to.

What you two just opinionized has given me new fever for the show. I want to go home right now and look for clues if Inara really is terminally ill.

So, in the end, I want to thank you for all your insight. It’s people like you that get the new guys hooked. You keep our fan base the way is should be.

Remember, we are in this together. The moment we start tearing each other apart is the moment that “None of it means a damn thing”

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 1:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
Your comment about Wash and Zoe means naught since they didn't say anything to River. Although I have always wanted to hear what Zoe would have said had she been given the chance.

I think they didn't "say" anyhting because they were so passionately imersed in eachother. Their love was at their core. Nothing else matterd. So instead of a worded thought, all River picked up on was that passion.

It's too bad River had to drop by on them at such a time, I also wouldn't mind knowing what what their phrases would've been.

«°-:-°»
Also... I can kill you with my brain.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 1:50 PM

TERRIFRIED

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
This one is the biggest pile of go se ever, and trying to pass it off as consensus is just wrong. My take on it (given the context, a discussion of Inara leaving) is that Inara's comment represents her desire to hear Mal just come right out and tell her his feelings (which she can't ask him to do).

agreed

"I don't think of myself as a lion..."

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:28 PM