Joss here, Joss there - What about the other writers? by CBY

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Joss here, Joss there - What about the other writers?

POSTED BY: CBY
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 1, 2006 11:14
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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 12:56 AM

As you might know, Joss Whedon only wrote two Firelfly episodes (plus the one he wrote together with Tim Minear) and the movie himself - so what about the other writers? Nobody seems to care about them. Could you name all of them right now without looking them up anywhere? I don't think so. Yet they wrote 75% of Firefly.

My point is: Joss might be the creater or inventer of Firefly, but you can't say Firefly is great because of his writing - he simply didn't write most of it.

Suggestions? Remarks? Comments?

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 1:13 AM

AUSSAY

Well actually Joss wrote 'Serenity part 1 and 2', he co-wrote 'The Train Job' with Time Minear, he wrote 'Our Mrs. Reyonlds', co-wrote 'The Message' with Tim Minear and wrote 'Objects in Space' so he was credited with being involved in 5 episodes plus the movie.

In a way I get what your saying, I mean JJ Abrams gets all the credit for Lost when he was actually not involved in it much and is practically not invloved with the second series.

I guess the love for Joss is for creating this 'verse and his original vision. The writers do a great job but its just people writing off Joss's ideas and no doubt he would contribute a lot to episodes he isnt credited with

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 1:15 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Hi CBY

It's a fair point I guess - but I think the majority of peeps perhaps refer to Joss more often than other writers on account of all the scripts having to be passed through him first. In commentaries I think almost every writer I've listened to, describes how Joss thought of that line or raised this idea and made it better etc. They invariable describe how he adds so much to every script even if he isn't necessarily credited as writer for that particular episode.

Now just to discuss the other point of your thread I keep tabs on the writers. In fact aside from Joss my other prefered writer is/was Jane Espenson - I love her sense of humour, she writes most of the more comedic stuff on Joss' shows. The episode : johnothan for Buffy and the Episode where Wesley pretends to be Angel in angel where favs of mine. Although Shindig isn't my favourite Firefly episode it still has Jane's flare for humour. Drew Goddard and Drew Z.Greenberg also wrote good episodes for Joss. Tim Minear always has an interesting take on the scripts too. David Fury is another good writer who I like and I recently watched his contributions to LOST which stood out leagues above other episodes for it's great sense of humour and comedic subtext, something that LOST really needs in parts because as much as I like it it's too reliant on sustaining the 'mystery' above the characterisations.

Also you could make a similar point about Directors on Firefly. Out Of Gas is brilliantly directed and poor old David Solomon seems to garner little respect and appreciation for putting that episode together especially as it's a great favourite amoungst us all here. Similarly Marita Grabiak (sp) is an awesome director who goes overlooked... but in a way that's maybe the way it should be I dunno. These days there's perhaps too much attention given to 'visionary' directors and writers and producers to the point where their work starts to become secondary to their persona....Maybe.

Cheers
The
Somnambulist

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 6:46 AM

MATTCOZ

Same thing happened with Star Wars. The best of all the movies wasn't written or directed by George Lucas. It's still his baby though.

I'm more than willing to give others credit, especially Tim Minear. Funny thing is that I didn't watch Firefly when it was on TV, but I did watch Wonderfalls. Unfortunately I have to watch a lesbian & gay network to see reruns now... not that there's anything wrong with that.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 6:56 AM

CEDRIC

I try to keep an eye out for the other writers, especially Jany Espenson, who is just so cool.

Let's not forget Ben Edlund, the creator of the Tick, who wrote Jaynestown (and Angel's Smile Time), including the Hero of Canton.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:02 AM

JOECAMEL

I've always said that Angel was so great because of the other writers. Season 3 of that show was easily the best they did, and I think Joss wrote like one episode of the entire 22. And it was a pretty bad episode, at that (for me, at least).

I couldn't name the other writers, though. I give them complete credit, however, on Firefly, Angel, and Buffy, for making each show the best it could be.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:34 AM

STAKETHELURK

Well, let’s look at the rundown of writers for “Firefly” and see how things look.

As others have said, Joss wrote or co-wrote 6 episodes (“Serenity, Part I,” Serenity, Part II,” “The Train Job,” “Our Mrs. Reynolds,” “The Message,” “Objects in Space”) as well as the BDM, and he co-wrote the comics.

Tim Minear wrote or co-wrote 4 episodes (“The Train Job,” “Bushwhacked,” “Out of Gas,” “The Message”)

Jane Espensen, who was actually on the “Buffy” writing staff, wrote 1 episode (“Shindig”), making her the only other “hat trick” writer at Mutant Enemy besides Joss

Drew Z. Greenberg, also on the “Buffy” staff, wrote 1 episode (“Safe”)

Ben Edlund, wrote or co-wrote two episodes (“Jaynestown,” “Trash”)

Brett Matthews wrote 1 episode (“Heart of Gold”), and later co-wrote the “Serenity” comics with Joss.

Cheryl Cain wrote 1 episode (“War Stories”)

Jose Molina wrote or co-wrote 2 episodes (“Ariel,” “Trash”)

So, when it comes down to which individual did the most writing, Joss wins out. However, his input doesn’t just extend to episodes with his name on them. Here’s some excerpts from interviews with Joss and Tim. They’re talking about how unusual it was that it was one of the staff writers, Ben Edlund, who pitched the idea for “Jaynestown.”

Quote:
Joss: Very few ideas are actually pitched to me. I tend to come up with them myself or in concert with Tim or Marti Noxon or David Greenwalt. Or I tend to come in with at least some idea of, “You know, I think we need to feel scared. I want the insecurity of....” It’s usually a process of developing the idea from something I’ve pitched out.

Quote:
Tim: He came up with the idea for that episode, but it’s not that often actually that somebody just comes up with a right idea for an episode of the show. Usually it’s Joss who comes up with the basic idea, but I remember that Ben had come up with the idea of Jayne as Robin Hood, basically, or a Robin Hood that didn’t mean to be Robin Hood. And then there was the whole idea that there were mud farmers - everything about it was just perfect.

So, these interviews suggest that most of the episodes Joss didn’t write (though not Jaynestown) were at least developed from an idea of his.

And I know that on “Buffy” and “Angel” Joss would often do uncredited rewrites of scripts, touching up dialogue mostly. The other writers soon learned to their horror that when fans came up to compliment them about an episode and single out a particular line as their favorite, 9 times out of 10 it was a line Joss had added. Sometimes, when pressed for time, Joss and other senior writers would actually write whole portions of episodes credited to other writers. (Jane Espensen & Drew Goddard won a Hugo Award for the “Buffy” ep “Conversations With Dead People,” but large portions of the ep were actually written by Joss and Marti Noxon.)

So, Joss’ influence in all of his shows is massive.

I think Joss, and also Tim, are usually praised over the other writers because they wrote enough episodes for us to get a feel of their style of writing. I’m also a big fan of Jane E and Ben Edlund, but that’s because I got a chance to see more of their writing style on Joss’ other shows. With “Firefly,” there wasn’t much time for everyone to set up a track record. We couldn’t tune into an ep (like one could over on Buffy) and very quickly tell “Ah, this is a Jose Molina episode.” If those bastards at FOX hadn’t cancelled the show, I’m sure that the other writers would have developed their own fan followings, as happened on Whedon’s longer-running shows, where sometimes the fans knew the writers better than the actors.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:41 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by CBY:
My point is: Joss might be the creater or inventer of Firefly, but you can't say Firefly is great because of his writing - he simply didn't write most of it.

He wrote more than any other single writer. Having writen or co-writen 5 episodes. Tim Minear is 2nd with 4 credits, Ben Edlund and Jose Molina are both credited with 2 episodes, and everybody else penned just the one. Furthermore in the comentary for Shindig Jane Espenson pointed out a particular place where Joss wound up doing a rewrite and another place where he kept sending the script back for revision so his influence is certainly evident even on scripts for which he doesn't get credit as a writer. Now you are right that Joss didn't work alone and the other writers and directors deserve a good deal of credit but that doesn't mean Joss wasn't the driving force of the writing team. I think it's clear he was.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 10:57 AM

EVANS

The episode of "24" that aired Monday Feb.27 - 4pm-5pm - had Audrey Raines drawing off an Omicron secretary by pretending to be "Jane Espenson." I presume Mr. Fury wrote that little line.

m.
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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 11:14 AM

EARLYSUMMER

Quote:
Evans wrote:

The episode of "24" that aired Monday Feb.27 - 4pm-5pm - had Audrey Raines drawing off an Omicron secretary by pretending to be "Jane Espenson." I presume Mr. Fury wrote that little line.

That's cool. I saw that episode and never even noticed. Good catch.

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