What did Book mean by ....... by Cain

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

What did Book mean by .......

POSTED BY: CAIN
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 20:47
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Sunday, May 21, 2006 4:56 AM

In "Objects in Space" River hears a snippet of each character's deepest thoughts. All of them are really thinking these things, but perhaps not in the context River thinks.

What Shepard Book was thinking while talking with Jayne really bugged me..

What exactly did he think (say in his mind) and what do you folks think it meant ??? Was he thinking about River ??

Thanks for YOUR thoughts, from a new recruit!!

-- Cain

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 5:18 AM

LOOKATTHATBIRD

He says "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not, so where does that leave you?"

That one really bugs me too. I can't decide on a theory that would make it make sense. All the other thoughts were set in the present and relevant the their conversations. I've heard a lot of people say that maybe it means he's still working for the alliance, or has worked for the alliance in the past(which woudldn't really make sense). I don't think the mystery of Book can all be summed up in him having ties to the alliance, it would be too obvious. Also, since they were talking about sex, it could have something to do with that. Like he's planning on rapeing River? I don't know, but I SO wish I did.

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 6:11 AM

LAUGHINGMUSE

One way to see it is that Jayne's thoughts and Book's thoughts are their own unspoken discussion. Their thoughts have everything to do with the two men and their relationship, and nothing to do with River. Their thoughts weren't directly, explicitly related to their current conversation, but it's a constant undertone.

Jayne enjoys Book's company, probably appreciates the non-judgemental treatment he gets from the preacher, and admires Book and wants to emulate him (in ways. No, Jayne is not going to take orders any time soon.) That's fairly standard behavior: you like someone, you admire someone, you want to emulate someone because you like and admire them. Jayne knows that Kaylee, Zoe, Wash...everyone would be very disgusted with him if they found out about his betrayal of the Tams. He wants to be liked. He wants to be admired. Rock-bottom, he wants to be accepted. But he wants people to care about him, one way or the other (like or hate) because that means that they at least acknowledge his existence. Jayne doesn't have a strong self-esteem, and defines himself very heavily - possibly almost exclusively - on others' opinions of him.

Book doesn't care about what Jayne did or didn't do. Book is going to leave the judgement of Jayne's actions...up to Jayne. He's not going to approve, he's not going to disapprove, he's not going to ignore. He's simply not going to be the approving / enabling / punishing person that Jayne seems to need him to be. Book is forcing Jayne to take the responsibility of his own deeds.

Shorthand: he's not going to kick Jayne out of the house, but he is going to encourage him to grow up.

(Of course, part of the amazing coolth of Joss' writing is that these fragments are so very simple that they could be taken a number of ways. Except Simon's "I would be there right now," which is pretty specific. And we didn't hear anything from Kaylee. Hmmmm...)

---------------------------------
Mankind makes tools; we use them to augment our hands, arms and legs.
The computer augments the brain and this makes it very unpopular with totalitarians. - Charles J.C. Lyall

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:05 PM

CAIN

Unfortunately, since the discussion was about sex, and Jayne had just asked Book if he masturbated, I took it as a sexual fantasy zipping around in Book's head about River.... Like maybe one he has while masturbating thinking about River...

And it made me uncomfortable (as it was probably intended to)...

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:15 PM

COPILOT

Book wasn't always a Shepard. He may not even have been a real Shepard during the show or movie. At one time he was or is something like an Operative. I think at the very least he was once a high ranking Alliance Official. This is my opinion gleened from several episodes and bits of the movie. I can't say exactly what that exact sentence ment but to me it means he knows that at some point he may have to kill River. Or it could just be the inner man fighting to break free of his gental exterior. Perhaps a normal human rage constantly being forced down my mediation and bible passages.

An I carried such a torch

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:31 PM

LAUGHINGMUSE

Oh, thank goodness. When no one was responding, I thought I'd earned a few more points toward my Thread Killer merit badge.

Religion is often seen as a tool humans use to master their baser instincts - so Copilot, your quote

Quote:
Perhaps a normal human rage constantly being forced down my mediation and bible passages.

is pretty applicable. It's also, to me, another reason why the friendship between Jayne and Book is so interesting.

---------------------------------
Mankind makes tools; we use them to augment our hands, arms and legs.
The computer augments the brain and this makes it very unpopular with totalitarians. - Charles J.C. Lyall

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:33 PM

CAIN

Quote:
Originally posted by copilot:
Book wasn't always a Shepard. He may not even have been a real Shepard during the show or movie. At one time he was or is something like an Operative. I think at the very least he was once a high ranking Alliance Official. This is my opinion gleened from several episodes and bits of the movie. I can't say exactly what that exact sentence ment but to me it means he knows that at some point he may have to kill River. Or it could just be the inner man fighting to break free of his gental exterior. Perhaps a normal human rage constantly being forced down my mediation and bible passages.

An I carried such a torch

That makes a lot of sense....

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 3:06 PM

DAVESHAYNE

I'm gonna chime in with an alternative I haven't really seen explored before. As a christian Book is concerned with saving River's soul a process that doesn't involve guilt or innocence but (as I understand the concept) merely requires the penitents willingness to accept JC as her savior. Perhaps River is just interpreting the evangelical impulse in the least favorable light.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Monday, May 22, 2006 12:45 AM

THUNDER

I think Book was a agent in the past & that he still thinks like one & is just trying his best to change & be good.I think he was thinking that River is guilty of what ever the Alliance say's she is guilty of.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 2:55 AM

AGATSU

Did anyone notice that Book didn't look at River when he said that (while Jayne did). Think that means something?
I think the quote marks a critical point in Books life. He said that to a person right before he killed them, and his regret for it later drove him to become a shepherd. Or something.
Since he said it in disgust, I doubt it's about his forgiving attitude towards Jayne.

I also think that Inara is very afraid of dying and has some sort of disease. "I'm a big girl, you can tell me." I don't think she was "talking" to Mal or River - that quote marked a turning point in her life, the reason why she left the temple.

It's nice that later in the episode you find out that Simon was thinking that he could be there right now if not for THEM. He doesn't blame River for screwing up his life, he blames the people who did it to River.

BROWNCOATS UNITE!

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Monday, May 22, 2006 3:03 AM

CAPTAINWALDO

I think that at one time Book was an Operative or something similar within the Alliance. I believe his thoughts may be part of what made him quit. Perhaps hunting down & killing someone who he found later to be innocent. Causing him to loose his belief in the alliance, much like the Operative in the movie. Therfore representing an inner demon that he struggles with.

*Edit* Haha your post beat mine in there Agatsu, glad to see we are thinking along the same lines though.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 3:40 AM

MASTERCHIEF

problem everyone looks at river when she hears there thoughts if they are talking to her or about her, bar mal and book. and when we see book he is looking down and into himself, meaning this is a dark and evil thing but its in him! i think joss is suggesting that inside of the man is something powerful, un-controlled and wild if you may! that he fights to keep down, and away from people! just look at how he hits the fed in the first episode! and then he jumps back into preacher man, where he protects him! i think the sentence is from the darkness inside him, he is two people one "the man of god" (good guy) and two "a man of darkness" (evil guy) sorry i talked a bit just what i think!

"Zoe: Oh yeah, this is gonna go great.
Mal: If anyone gets nosy, just, you know... shoot 'em.
Zoe: Shoot 'em?
Mal: Politely."

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Monday, May 22, 2006 4:23 AM

EMMARIGBY

Quote:
Originally posted by Agatsu:
Did anyone notice that Book didn't look at River when he said that (while Jayne did). Think that means something?
I think the quote marks a critical point in Books life. He said that to a person right before he killed them, and his regret for it later drove him to become a shepherd. Or something.
Since he said it in disgust, I doubt it's about his forgiving attitude towards Jayne.

I also think that Inara is very afraid of dying and has some sort of disease. "I'm a big girl, you can tell me." I don't think she was "talking" to Mal or River - that quote marked a turning point in her life, the reason why she left the temple.

It's nice that later in the episode you find out that Simon was thinking that he could be there right now if not for THEM. He doesn't blame River for screwing up his life, he blames the people who did it to River.

BROWNCOATS UNITE!

Oooh! That would make so much sense about Inara! I was watching the commentary for the pilot the other day and Joss went all cryptic about what the syringe she was holding was supposed to be. That would fit in nicely!

The first time I saw that scene with Book it seemed to me that he was flashing back to when he was a hard-ass lawman or judge. As I watched more I became convinced that he used to be an operative

Select to view spoiler:

and that now he is gone it followed, in my mind, that the natural progression would be for the Operative to become a preacher in a nicely cyclical arc.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 5:18 AM

AGATSU

The syringe is filled with a poison that does not kill the user, but anyone who has sex with them - that's why Inara pulls it out when the Reavers are coming. Tim Minear allegedly said that at some writer's conference or some such. He also said it would have come back in a later, very dark episode.
(I remember Morena saying in some interview that what the syringe is about is very cool and very sad.)

BROWNCOATS UNITE!

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Monday, May 22, 2006 5:57 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Masterchief:
sorry i talked a bit just what i think!

That's what the board is for. Sharing experiences of the verse.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Monday, May 22, 2006 1:00 PM

CAIN

That is a good point that Book was not looking at her when he was thinking this.....

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 1:20 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

There's quite the big damn discussion of this here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=4&t=16456 If I recall correctly, many other character's lines were also discussed.

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:22 AM

RUGBUG

I think Book is referring to his past. That he was involved in something untoward, in a capacity where there was no physical "blood on his hands" but it is still on his conscious. He couldn't accept what he had become so he became a shepherd. He is trying to inhabit this new role of "innocent" but he can't forgive himself and thus is as guilty as the next guy.

I think Early's comment that "That's no shepherd" further supports that Book is trying to define himself as a shepherd, but hasn't become one yet. Book has chosen the role of an innocent, but that doesn't wipe out the past and the responsibility for who he was previously.

I don't think the comment relates to River. Simon's and Jayne's comments do, but because that is what they are diligently trying to hide. Mal and Inara's seem to relate to each other. Zoe and Wash aren't hiding anything at that moment and River can feel their passion. It would've been interesting to hear something from Kaylee. At first I thought it was because she doesn't have to hide anything. She's pretty open about how she feels. But then there's the whole War Stories secret that comes out later. Maybe she didn't say anything only because it was going to come out soon?

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 10:23 AM

DREADPIRATE

The way I took it was that some of River's "visions" or "voices" aren't necessarily true or real to life. The following quote from "Safe" I think is a pretty good indication of how her psycosis mixes with her psycic abilities:

"I get confused. I remember everything. I remember too much, and... some of it's made up, and... some of it can't be quantified, and... there's secrets..."

I think that her vision of Book may have been affected by the fact that he makes her a little nervous and she doesn't understand him very well.

Or, he could be talking about Jayne, or someone he tortured or something in his sordid, mysterious past.

-Rach
Love is what keeps me in the air.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 4:10 PM

FLAME

Quote:
Originally posted by Cain:
What Shepard Book was thinking while talking with Jayne really bugged me..

What exactly did he think (say in his mind) and what do you folks think it meant ??? Was he thinking about River ??

That line bothered me, too, until I read the shooting script for The Message, and after Book drives Womack off the ship, Jayne says: "Either you spent a lotta time fightin' bad cops... or bein' one." And Book answers, "Maybe both." But those lines never made it into the episode as it was filmed.

I don't think he's talking about River. I think she's seeing something in his past, something that drives who he is, or who he is trying to become.

Someone else here said it, River sees secrets. Some of the secrets are obvious (like Simon resenting having to be on Serenity and give up his career, or Kaylee glaring at River - maybe resenting her for keeping Simon from being with her?), but some are more mysterious, like Inara and Book.

~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
http://www.monkeyshinesbeadery.com/serenity/shindig/

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Monday, June 12, 2006 4:16 PM

FLAME

Quote:
Originally posted by copilot:
Book wasn't always a Shepard. He may not even have been a real Shepard during the show or movie. At one time he was or is something like an Operative. I think at the very least he was once a high ranking Alliance Official. This is my opinion gleened from several episodes and bits of the movie. I can't say exactly what that exact sentence ment but to me it means he knows that at some point he may have to kill River. Or it could just be the inner man fighting to break free of his gental exterior. Perhaps a normal human rage constantly being forced down my mediation and bible passages.

Yeah, Jubal Early says "that's no shepherd." He would know, wouldn't he? He had all the info on the entire crew.

And we know that the Alliance took him right in, lickety split, and patched him up after saying they wouldn't.

And we know Book knows a lot about weapons, ships, and crime.

I think that what River saw in Book was intended to confuse us, and make us think maybe he was thinking that toward River, but in fact it's just a flashback to an event in his past (as someone else on this thread has said).

~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
http://www.monkeyshinesbeadery.com/serenity/shindig/

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 6:41 AM

ROCKXWL

My guess on Book's past is that he used to be an Alliance Operative. As we know, the Operative in "Serenity" blindly attempted to carry out his mission without question until he saw the recording the crew had obtained. Then he had a change of heart. Obviously it is all Operative's job to not question their assignments and simply carry them out. Perhaps Book used to be one of these blindly devoted robot-like Operatives until he too discovered the secrets he was supposed to keep. I don't think there is much question that Book is really a Shepherd so I think he found religion after leaving the Alliance as a way to cope with the guilt he felt.

With all that in mind, Book is referring to himself in his line in "Objects" where River reads his mind.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:47 PM

TYRANICLE

i think this whole topic begs the question about what really is the deal with Book? coz he got that medical attention on the Alliance cruiser and the bounty hunter in Objects In Space (i can't remember his name, i've got a mental block) sadi he wasnt really a Shepherd.

So seriously, does anyone have any founded assumtions or evidence to show what the deal is with Book? There has to be someone out there who knows...

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