River in "Trash" *confused* by Brexan

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

River in "Trash" *confused*

POSTED BY: BREXAN
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 11:05
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Friday, May 26, 2006 5:37 AM

I've been confused by the dialogue between River and Simon in this episode for a while, the scene where they're locked away in one of their rooms and talking about Saffron/Jayne:

Scene Script
=======

RIVER: Afraid.

SIMON: We'll be okay. Why the captain is trusting that < remorseless harridan > [BOO hway-HUN duh PUO-foo] is beyond --

RIVER: Not her. Jayne.

SIMON: (amused) Afraid? Since when?

RIVER: Since Ariel.

Simon is no longer amused.

RIVER (cont'd): Afraid we'll know.
=======

I know what River says rarely makes sence, but Simon seems to understand her and I think in this particular scene the idea is that the audience do too. This scene is, somehow, telling us that River knows about what Jayne did, and she's letting Simon know. If this was simply another "look audience, River is crazy, don't listen to her" scene, I'd imagine it would have been cut out or reduced - its not necessary.

River's first line seems to be saying "I'm affraid", then Simon replying to comfort her "We'll be OK". Then the next line "Not her, Jayne" seems to mean one of two things. Either (a) she's reffering to herself as 'her' and saying that its not herself, buy Jayne that's affraid or (b) she's reffering to Simon's 'trust' comment and "not her" is reffering to Saffron. River is questionning the captain's trust in Jayne and the "affraid" comment is her being afraid of Jayne.

Option (a)
-------------
RIVER: Afraid. [Jayne (who just left the room) is affraid]

SIMON: We'll be okay. Why the captain is trusting that < remorseless harridan > [BOO hway-HUN duh PUO-foo] is beyond -- [Its ok, Saffron won't harm us, but I don't know why the captain is trusting her]

RIVER: Not her. Jayne. [I'm not affraid, Jayne is]

SIMON: (amused) Afraid? Since when? [Since when is Jayne affraid?]

RIVER: Since Ariel. [Since he betrwayed us on Ariel]

Simon is no longer amused.

RIVER (cont'd): Afraid we'll know. [He's affraid we'll know]
-----------

Given the last comment in the scene "Affraid we'll know" she seems to be meaning that Jayne is affraid, and therefore option (a) makes more sence - but why is she referring to herself as 'her'? I've seen discussions on other threads about River reffering to herself in the third person (eg "she understands but she doesn't comprehend") so is this another example of this? If it is, its added a lot of confusion to the scene, at least to me. If I didn't know what they were talking about, and what is later shown (Simon telling Jayne he knows) I'd pretty much have no clue what this current scene was there for, and so from a scripting point of view the "her" third person comment doesn't seem to be wise.

So lets assume that fact option (b) is the case, and River is saying that she is affraid of Jayne, and wondering why the captain is trusting Jayne after his previous actions. If we ignore the last line "affraid we'll know" this could make sence.

Option (b)
----------
RIVER: Afraid. [I'm affraid]

SIMON: We'll be okay. Why the captain is trusting that < remorseless harridan > [BOO hway-HUN duh PUO-foo] is beyond -- [Its ok, Saffron won't harm us, but I don't know why the captain is trusting her]

RIVER: Not her. Jayne. [Not affraid of Saffron, affraid of Jayne]

SIMON: (amused) Afraid? Since when? [Since when have you been affraid of him?]

RIVER: Since Ariel.[Sincen his betrayal]

Simon is no longer amused.

RIVER (cont'd): Afraid we'll know. [Suddenly (confusingly) its Jayne affraid that people will know of the betrayal]
--------------

Due to the last comment that doesn't really make much sense. Yes I know we could use the old "she's crazy" excuse, and say she is confused and that's why she switches from her being affraid to Jayne being affraid, but I really don't think that's an applicable reason in this scene.

Anyone else have any ideas on how this scene is meant to be read?

-Brexan
"Also, I can kill you with my brain"

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Friday, May 26, 2006 5:44 AM

RUGBUG

I think you may be making it much more complicated than it really is.

River is saying that Jayne is afraid that Simon and River will know that he tried to turn them in to the feds in the ep "Ariel."

RIVER: Afraid. [Jayne is afraid]

SIMON: We'll be okay. Why the captain is
trusting that < remorseless harridan > [BOO
hway-HUN duh PUO-foo] is beyond --

RIVER: Not her. Jayne. {Saffron's not afraid. Jayne is]

SIMON: (amused) Afraid? Since when?

RIVER: Since Ariel. [when Jayne tried to turn them in]

Simon is no longer amused.

RIVER (cont'd): Afraid we'll know. [He's afraid we'll know he tried to sell us out to the feds]

On another note: I think River usually makes sense. It's just not in context with the rest of what is going on, so it seems to be gibberish. When you go back, her comments are full of the sense-making.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 5:49 AM

BREXAN

Ah, but for the option to work Simon's comment would have to be read as "Saffron is affraid" which, given the actual content, doesn't fit.

RIVER: Afraid. [Jayne is afraid]

SIMON: We'll be okay. Why the captain is trusting that < remorseless harridan > [BOO hway-HUN duh PUO-foo] is beyond -- [For River's next comment to make sence, she would have to think that Simon was saying here "Saffron is(not) affraid", why else would she say "Saffron is not affraid" in response? It would also require Simon to see River's first comment as "Saffron is affraid" which doesn't seem to be a logical interpretation of her commment and given his "We'll be OK" sentiment]

RIVER: Not her. Jayne. [Saffron's not afraid. Jayne is]

I guess its possible that River, in her infinate insanity, completely misunderstood Simon's comment that Saffron wasn't going to harm them. She instead may have thought Simon was saying "Saffron isn't affraid" which would explain her "not her" comment as correcting Simon's assumption that its Saffron she was talking about.

-Brexan
"Also, I can kill you with my brain"

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Friday, May 26, 2006 1:48 PM

DONCOAT

To me, the line "Not her. Jayne." is just River talking in shorthand. What she means is "I'm not referring to being afraid of Saffron. I'm referring to Jayne being afraid we'll find out about his betrayal on Ariel."

Of course, since Simon doesn't know about the second half, he misses the point and River has to clarify for him.

Don't forget, River is brilliant as well as crazy. Sometimes brilliant people's minds jump far out ahead of others', making it hard for us less gifted folks to follow their leaps of insight. That's what I think happened here.

And in fact, it's a pretty brilliant bit of writing to convey that in three words of dialog.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 4:47 AM

EVILDINOSAUR

I think she's referring to herself in the third person, I can't recall specific quotes but I'm fairly certain she does it at other times too.

I think she does that because she knows she's not herself, her true self (as niska would say lol) is buried under her condition, and so when she's referring to her true self, she tends to use third person, at least that's my observation.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 4:55 AM

XEYRA

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
To me, the line "Not her. Jayne." is just River talking in shorthand. What she means is "I'm not referring to being afraid of Saffron. I'm referring to Jayne being afraid we'll find out about his betrayal on Ariel."

Of course, since Simon doesn't know about the second half, he misses the point and River has to clarify for him.

Don't forget, River is brilliant as well as crazy. Sometimes brilliant people's minds jump far out ahead of others', making it hard for us less gifted folks to follow their leaps of insight. That's what I think happened here.

And in fact, it's a pretty brilliant bit of writing to convey that in three words of dialog.

Yes, that is exactly that. She's not refering to herself in the third person. Simon thinks that River is afraid of Saffron and River says "not her" (after all, as a genius, her thought process makes leaps that other people usually can't understand because they need to know how to go from A to B while River is already on C). She then goes on to say that Jayne is the one who is afraid. That's how I interpret that scene... don't know what's so complicated about it. Let's not forget Jayne is being nicer to them since Ariel as seen in this scene... a guilty conscience that River was able to discern with her creepifying way of knowing things.

EDit: EVILDINOSAUR, River only uses the third person in two occasions in the series, only one of them refering specifically to herself and none of them show much of a dissociation from her own self, because, if taken in context, they make sense (once as part of a joke, in Safe, and another as a reply to Mal, in Objects in Space). River does not refer to herself in the third person because she is not her own self. There is really no dissociative issue going on with her that I've seen. She may be traumatized and a bit crazy, but she refers to herself as herself (in first person) throughout the entire series, movie, comics and R. Tam sessions.

*******************************
Wash: This landing is gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: [deadpan] Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die?

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 5:56 AM

BREXAN

Tried 3 times to change the topic but it keeps going back to "Re:Re", gah! >.<

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 5:58 AM

CITIZEN

River says Afraid in reference to Jayne. Simon thinks she's talking about herself and then tries to set her mind at ease by telling her Saffron can't harm them. River says no it's not about Saffron it's about Jayne.

River is psychic and a mite nutty, she likely doesn't realise that people can misunderstand her comments so Simon and River are in away misunderstanding each other.

RIVER: Afraid. [Jayne is afraid]

SIMON: We'll be okay. Why the captain is trusting that < remorseless harridan > [BOO
hway-HUN duh PUO-foo] is beyond --

RIVER: Not her. Jayne. [I’m not talking about Saffron, I’m talking about Jayne]

SIMON: (amused) Afraid? Since when? [You’re saying Jayne’s afraid? Since when?]

RIVER: Since Ariel. [Selling them out]

Simon is no longer amused.

RIVER (cont'd): Afraid we'll know. [He's afraid we'll find out about him and the feds, which we have, oops]

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 7:00 AM

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

brexan, do you work for the government?

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 11:48 AM

BREXAN

Nope O_o

-Brexan
"Also, I can kill you with my brain"

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 2:35 PM

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

really?

cause you're good at what they do

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 5:41 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Yes, what Citizen said seems exactly right to me.
Now let me see if I can fix the subject line.

*edit* There! Should do it. (I've figured out that a later post being edited is what really effects the subject line.)

**********************************

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 6:11 PM

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

*is confused*

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 6:14 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

You're confused? *is confused*

**********************************

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Tuesday, May 30, 2006 11:05 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by Brexan:
Ah, but for the option to work Simon's comment would have to be read as "Saffron is affraid" which, given the actual content, doesn't fit.

RIVER: Afraid. [Jayne is afraid]

SIMON: We'll be okay. Why the captain is trusting that < remorseless harridan > [BOO hway-HUN duh PUO-foo] is beyond -- [For River's next comment to make sence, she would have to think that Simon was saying here "Saffron is(not) affraid", why else would she say "Saffron is not affraid" in response? It would also require Simon to see River's first comment as "Saffron is affraid" which doesn't seem to be a logical interpretation of her commment and given his "We'll be OK" sentiment]

RIVER: Not her. Jayne. [Saffron's not afraid. Jayne is]

I apparently wasn't with the sense making, either. What I should've put, and what I think others have said is:

RIVER: Not her. Jayne. [I'm not talking about Saffron, I'm talking about Jayne. He's the one who is afraid.]

That's what I was trying to say.

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