Did the operative kill Badger and the Heart of Gold whores? by Flame

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Did the operative kill Badger and the Heart of Gold whores?

POSTED BY: FLAME
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 08:06
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 11840
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Monday, June 12, 2006 5:21 PM

I don't know if the BDM counts as an "episode" of FIREFLY, but I wasn't sure where else to put this question. I haven't seen anyone else bring it up, before, but if the operative "leaves no ground to run to" and kills anyone who's ever been involved in a heist with our crew, including Fanty and Mingo, the Sanchez brothers, the Haven folk and someone at Whitefall (it says "Whitefall" on one of the screenshots on the bridge when Mal gets the wave from the operative)...

Then, are we to assume he killed Patience? Badger? The Heart of Gold whores? That would be just sad.

Any thoughts?

~ Flame ~

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Monday, June 12, 2006 5:32 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Considering the events of the comic...

Select to view spoiler:

It's likely that the BDHs have already killed Badger. I know I'd be tempted to. Certainly wouldn't shed any tears if the Operative got him either.

As to the rest I find it dificult to believe that the Operative could have found out about all of our heros' various nefarious contacts. So unless we are shown definite evidence to the contrary in specific cases I say we agree they escaped.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Monday, June 12, 2006 5:38 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

It was actually anyone who sheltered them who ended up dead. Badger never sheltered them, and they parted on very bad terms in the comics, so probably not. As for Heart of Gold; who knows? The BDH's probably didn't go back there, so I bet they're safe.
Did Fanty and Mingo die? I didn't think they died. According to the novel they were interogated, but I never saw them dead. What'd I miss?

***********

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Tuesday, June 13, 2006 3:00 AM

FLAME

Ah, ok. I read the novel, but only once, awhile back. For some reason I was thinking Fanty and Mingo were dead - maybe just 'cause they were so nearly...

All we get in the movie is one security feed from Boros (the Sanchez brothers) and one private office feed from Whitefall (could be Patience? though I wouldn't imagine she'd shelter Mal after shooting her all up - then again, why would she even let him back on her moon at all, so who knows).

I'd like to think that the Operative didn't hurt everyone else... maybe just the people at the ends of the 7 navsat trajectories the crew sent out as decoys?

~ Flame ~

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Tuesday, June 13, 2006 3:03 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Flame:
I don't know if the BDM counts as an "episode" of FIREFLY, but I wasn't sure where else to put this question. I haven't seen anyone else bring it up, before, but if the operative "leaves no ground to run to" and kills anyone who's ever been involved in a heist with our crew, including Fanty and Mingo, the Sanchez brothers, the Haven folk and someone at Whitefall (it says "Whitefall" on one of the screenshots on the bridge when Mal gets the wave from the operative)...

Then, are we to assume he killed Patience? Badger? The Heart of Gold whores? That would be just sad.

Any thoughts?

~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
http://www.monkeyshinesbeadery.com/serenity/shindig/

I don't know about anyone else, but I personally like the idea of Patience getting her comeuppence (sp?) at the hands of the Operative.

Hope the whores are OK, though; they're such sweet girls and boy-whores.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Tuesday, June 13, 2006 3:07 AM

XEYRA

Actually, the Whitefall contact wasn't Patience (Patience never sheltered Mal... in fact, they didn't part on very good terms!) but Lie Cheng or somesuch? Zoe mentions the name when she's asking Wash to enter in contact with some people, after they find Haven destroyed. I have to find a screencap of that, to check, but I doubt Patience was killed.

The Operative was trying to destroy anyone who sheltered Serenity, meaning their allies, not their enemies or solely business partners. So I'm pretty sure Badger, Fanty and Mingo and Patience are pretty much alive.

*******************************
Wash: This landing is gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: [deadpan] Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die?

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Tuesday, June 13, 2006 2:16 PM

SIMONWHO

The rough cut strongly implied that the Operative tortured and killed Fanty and Mingo. We see a shot of them tired to a chair with a look of utter despair on their faces then the Operative comes into view, holding a scalpel. (That scene is the one that has the twins going "Summer!" at the camera in the outtakes).

Given that the Operative kills Mr Universe for pretty much no reason, I would be very surprised if he let Fanty & Mingo live, especially as the Operative would have seen them on the camera feed and they'd have been his first port of call.

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Tuesday, June 13, 2006 2:54 PM

XEYRA

Was this scene in the screenings before the final cut? Because I wasn't familiar with it. That puts a whole new spin on things... Fanty and Mingo weren't exactly sheltering Mal and crew, just giving them work. So if they got killed, who knows who else the Operative got? But since it's not made certain that that happened in the movie, then it leaves things to one's imagination and if they want to believe Fanty and Mingo are in fact alive, well, let them. :)

*******************************
Wash: This landing is gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: [deadpan] Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die?

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Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:42 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
The rough cut strongly implied that the Operative tortured and killed Fanty and Mingo. We see a shot of them tired to a chair with a look of utter despair on their faces then the Operative comes into view, holding a scalpel. (That scene is the one that has the twins going "Summer!" at the camera in the outtakes).

Given that the Operative kills Mr Universe for pretty much no reason, I would be very surprised if he let Fanty & Mingo live, especially as the Operative would have seen them on the camera feed and they'd have been his first port of call.

Is there an extended outtakes for Serenity, now? Because I never saw them yelling Summer! Aw, man!
I thought the whole thing with him killing Mr Universe was to show that Mal was actually getting to him. It almost confuses him that he would be that rash; he's not used to being pissed, just killing when it "must be done".
They are tied up, intimidated, and interogated according to the novel, but we never see them die. And you know how it is in movies and such; if you don't see them die, they could easily be alive. Hell, even Dobson was slated to come back (and appears in the comics) and I was thinking that a bullet to the eye was a surefire way to kill someone.
So where can I find this missing scene with Fanty and Mingo? Where can I find ALL the missing scenes that seem to have been cut from the film and the DVD release? Where???

***********

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 12:11 AM

NIRWIN

This is a Joss Whedon series/film, you can assume everyone died, and their puppy was shot, kids orphaned, and a sweet and clever girl probably dies of a broken heart at some point too.

---
Nirwin

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 12:50 AM

XEYRA

Quote:
Originally posted by nirwin:
This is a Joss Whedon series/film, you can assume everyone died, and their puppy was shot, kids orphaned, and a sweet and clever girl probably dies of a broken heart at some point too.

And we still love him for it. How does the man do that?

*******************************
Wash: This landing is gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: [deadpan] Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die?

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 1:29 AM

CHOO1701

I think the operative/Aliiance (he can't be everywhere at once...) properly killed Badger 'cause it would be gettinjg rid of two birds with one stone (Badgers influence can only go SO FAR in the Alliance).

Not sure about the HoG whores?

And io wanna see some extended outtakes

"Remember, always be yourself. Unless you suck."-Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:16 AM

BELLONA

just so long as he didn't kill monty!!!

b

"i'm getting a powerful energy emission..."
my other coat is brown.
I used to be snow white but I drifted - Mae West
1 conversion

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:36 AM

XEYRA

Good God, does this mean there's not anyone left? No Badger, no Fanty and Mingo, no Patience? Where is Mal going to get a job from now on? You know, I'll just remain in my private little world and pretend they're all alive to properly annoy our favourite crew. 'Cause I want to. So there.

*******************************
Wash: This landing is gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: [deadpan] Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die?

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 6:11 AM

FLAME

Quote:
Originally posted by Xeyra:
Good God, does this mean there's not anyone left? No Badger, no Fanty and Mingo, no Patience? Where is Mal going to get a job from now on?

See, that's EXACTLY what I was wondering. The operative said that when your quarry runs to ground, leave no ground to run to - or something like that. It's all about the end justifying the means, for him. I just figured that, in the movie, they just didn't have time to show everyone from the TV series being dead.

It's possible that Patience and Badger wouldn't be the types to "shelter" our BDH's so they were spared. But I just assumed that he killed everyone who could *possibly* help Mal so that Mal had no where to go. He had no reason to spare anyone.

Them poor whores!! I'm worried about them. Joss, please, tell me Helen, Petalaine, baby Jonah and the others are OK!!!!

~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 6:25 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Flame:

Them poor whores!! I'm worried about them. Joss, please, tell me Helen, Petalaine, baby Jonah and the others are OK!!!!

That brothel was no better than a big target in the desert. The Operative knew that Mal wouldn't go there, no weapons, no money, no manpower no cover from airial attack (did I say no weapons?). And it wasn't a place the holed up in, it was where they went to do a job.

The girls and baby are okay...

Definite Chrisisall

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 6:44 AM

EMMARIGBY

I'm also thinking the whores are okay but for a different reason, how could the Operative have known about them?

He knew about Haven because he would have had info about Book being a former crew member. I could imagine him finding a former employer like Fanty/ Mingo and carefully extracting info about Mal's know business contacts but Mal's not really close enough to such scum to share the details of every job.

Honestly, out in the big black there would be no paper-work to trace Mal back to those girls! Maybe not even to Patience. I'm betting Badger might be in hot water though. He's worked with Mal the most. Ah well, shouldn't have been such a

________________________________

Hisssssss!

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 6:47 AM

CHOO1701

Quote:
Originally posted by Xeyra:
Good God, does this mean there's not anyone left? No Badger, no Fanty and Mingo, no Patience? Where is Mal going to get a job from now on? You know, I'll just remain in my private little world and pretend they're all alive to properly annoy our favourite crew. 'Cause I want to. So there.

*******************************
Wash: This landing is gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: [deadpan] Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die?

Thus starting a fresh to find out what other bad boys are out there for our BDH (if there was another TV series...)

and i think the brothel is okay.

"Remember, always be yourself. Unless you suck."-Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 6:55 AM

GREENFAERIE

...and what about Niska? and Saffron? This is going too far!

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 4:20 PM

FLAME

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The girls and baby are okay...

OK, I feel better now.

~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
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Friday, June 23, 2006 1:53 PM

J6NGO1977

The verse is very big . However You can't kill Badger :) The BDM replaced him with the Sanchez twins.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:26 AM

HIPPIEBROWNCOAT

This is a good question. Let me work real hard and start rubbing my two brain cells together...

I agree with a previous poster (sorry i forget your name, only two brain cells here) who said the HoG whores would be an irrational target. They have no firepower, and it would be a poor choice for Mal and crew to hide there. As for Badger: As soon as the Operative looked into Mal and Badger's relationship and Badger's operation, he would see that Badger wouldn't ever stretch his neck for Mal's hide. (Though i would kind of like to see the Operative and Badger bounce off each other for a while. Maybe Badger could make the Operative mad.) I haven't seen the outtake with Fante and Mingo getting tortured, but i would think they could be targeted simply because they are Mal's most recent business contact. If the Operative were to track and interrogate every one of Mal's business contacts, we'd all still be watching the movie!

Zoe's line was, "Everyone who's sheltered us after a heist." The operative wasn't looking for everyone who had ever talked to Mal, just the ones with a reputation for taking him in.

As for Mr. Universe: I know everyone says that the Operative was angry at that point, but i still think he kept his head and killed Mr. Universe because he didn't want him to get on the cortex and warn Mal when he was so close to his target. But that's just my skewed little train of thought.

Oh, i am a tweaked one, yes i am...

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:01 AM

FLAME

Quote:
Originally posted by HippieBrowncoat:
As for Mr. Universe: I know everyone says that the Operative was angry at that point, but i still think he kept his head and killed Mr. Universe because he didn't want him to get on the cortex and warn Mal when he was so close to his target.

Maybe he killed Mr. Universe because his sin was Greed. That's one of the seven, and Mr. Universe did say "throw my my coin" or something like that, didn't he? The Operative didn't like sins...

~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, raised $1,740 for Equality Now!!
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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:34 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

In the book it says he killed Mr Universe because he simply had too much access. No one short of Alliance should have had the sort of access he did. As he said, "I go everywhere."
The Operative should have arrested him or had one of the feds arrest him or some such, though. The other side of the coin is that Mal was in fact starting to get to him. He was even a little confused as to why he killed him the way he did; it was a rash choice. As I said it would have been better to arrest him for mucking around in places he didn't belong. You can even see it on his face. He gets this look like "Why did I do that? Oh well, it can be said to serve my purpose."
I'm still not convinced he killed Fanty and Mingo. He tapped them for information, yes. Why he felt torture was even needed to get them to talk about Mal and Co. is beyond me, but there you have it. But you never see them die, even in the novel, which has no cut scenes. I'm still pretty sure they lived.
The little weasels.

**********************************

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Monday, July 10, 2006 4:47 AM

IMPROBABILITYZERO

I don't think all the past aquantances were killed. I have trouble believing that the Operative can spread his resources out so far out in such a small time to kill them all. Plus as the Operative his job is to keep things done discreetly. I think the ones we saw in the BDM were made an example of; to prove that he wasn't joking.

I can see Badger cropping up in the future if there will be further developments. From the amount of stuff I have read and seen, it seems that these 'weasel' type characters lasts alot longer than expected.

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Monday, July 10, 2006 5:00 AM

MSG

I'd say no, because he was trying to get rid of those who had sheltered and assisted them and badger's never assisted them in his life and the heart of gold ladies got help from them and didn't really give them aid or shelter per se ...plus bit hard to track that one:)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Monday, July 10, 2006 5:26 AM

GWEK

Badger is almost certainly alive, since he parted with the crew on bad terms (and long enough ago that basic research might unearth that fact).

Patience would almost certainly not be killed by the Operative because she's never been a friend to Mal and would never shelter him.

Regardless of what happens to M&F in earlier cuts, there's nothing in the FINAL version of the movie -- or the novelization -- to make them dead, so they're PROBABLY alive (but not happy with Mal, since they've gotten tortured because of Mal).

The Operative would probably consider Mingo and Fanty to be allies for the crew because they are their CURRENT employers (even if the run in different directions the last time we see them, they have an ongoing working relationship). If the Operative doesn't kill them once they give him the information he needs, this makes perfect sense. The Op is oh-so-very-polite-and-apologetic, so he's going to kill folks who are THREATS and to make a point, but will not kill excessively. Therefore, no need to kill M&F.

Based on that logic, the HoG whores are probably in trouble if the Operative knows about them (which he probably doesn't, or them might be low down on the list).

For those who are interested in fanfic, head on over to Virtual Firefly at www.stillflying.net. where we're currently about a third of the way through Season Two (14 eps total, right now, including the end of Season One) and where you can meet the good folk of Haven, Li Chen, and the Sanchez Brothers whille their still alive (and, incidentally, see Patience get her come-uppance)!

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Thursday, July 13, 2006 8:05 AM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA

As for YoSafBridge, I get the feeling that she's as crazy and ok as ever. Knowing her, if the Operative did go after her, he'd find her walking down the aisle with some new poor dope, using some new just-as-untruthful-as-the-last-one name; and the Operative doesn't seem like the kind of guy to interrupt a wedding. And besides, she didn't try to shelter the BDHs, she tried to kill them. And then scam them.

"I'm not going to say that Serenity is the best SciFi movie ever; oh wait, yes I am." - Orson Scott Card

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Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:49 AM

HOODORNAMENT

Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatSandinista:
As for YoSafBridge, I get the feeling that she's as crazy and ok as ever.

Don't you think her and the operative would make a great couple... couple of rugrats underfoot, his and her weaponry. could be magic.

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Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:52 AM

STILLSHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
I'd say no, because he was trying to get rid of those who had sheltered and assisted them and badger's never assisted them in his life and the heart of gold ladies got help from them and didn't really give them aid or shelter per se ...plus bit hard to track that one:)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

My thoughts exactaly. He was only concerned about giving Mal & crew no place to hide. I doubt he tracked down everyone they had had contact with. Though it's obvious he went after Fanty & Mingo cuz he prolly saw them in the video from the fight.

"We had ties that could not be broken, except by the passing of time. Like a rock. A broken time rock. And you're very special to me, my broken time rock people." - Nathan Fillion

Stillshiny's Shop - Original creator of the -isms series

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Sunday, July 23, 2006 4:39 PM

WOLFPOET

Well, actually Serenity is based on Firefly, but it's not like the next episode in it (with elapsed time). They don't show Inara or Book leaving, they don't mention previous characters, and they add new characters (Mr. Universe, etc.) So I don't think they killed the whores, but they might have murdered Badger and just not shown him dead.

"We will rule over all this land, and we will call it... this land."
"I think we should call it YOUR GRAVE!"
"Oh, no, sudden yet inevitable betrayal."
-Wash

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Sunday, July 30, 2006 6:23 PM

XITWOUND117

Patience is definately dead, but Badger is just too cool to die. Plus, I find it unlikely that the Operative would be able to track him down on Persephone (sp?) without causing an enormous amount of chaos. I mean, the area that Badger lived in was packed, and it seemed like he lived in a place that didn't exactly give itself away.

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Sunday, July 30, 2006 7:07 PM

MOONLIGHT

I don't think the Operative would have cut a swarth through the criminal community without some angry people making some inquiries. Especially someone like Adlai Niska, who, I'd expect, masquerades as a legitimate businessman when he's not stealing medications and cutting ears off.

With regards to the Heart of Gold ladies, I think it was pretty obvious that the area isn't strategically...good...for anyone. Not much of a ground to go to, in other words.

Besides, I sort of get the impression that the Operative would find the lives of the whores to be pitiable and would thus spare them.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 3:07 PM

ROSEBENGAL

Here's my Fanty and Mingo theory --

If we assume that Fanty and Mingo are business contacts rather than shelter providers for the crew then we have to ask why the Operative killed them in the "leave no ground to go to" process. However I think that we are approaching this the wrong way.

If we step back we can take a different approach to the Fanty/Mingo interregation. Fanty and Mingo appear in the vid when River is set off by the fruit oatey bar commercial. A good Operative would clearly have reviewed the vid and had great interest in interregating the crews' last knwon contacts. Whereas when "leaving no ground" the Operative would not neccessarily have any interest in even speaking to his victims...

Thoughts?

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 8:06 AM

ELDUSTO

The movie always gave me the impression anyone they had regular dealings with was dead.

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