Objects In Space. by Bishop

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Objects In Space.

POSTED BY: BISHOP
UPDATED: Friday, January 30, 2004 18:45
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VIEWED: 10187
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Wednesday, September 10, 2003 8:41 PM

im having a bit of difficulty with this line here, maybe someone could shed some light on the meaning..

the scene happens when River is wandering around the ship reaching out to everyone one at a time. in the mess area Book and Jayne are there. Jayne says "I got stupid, the money was too good", and then book says "I dont give half a hump if you're innocent or not, so where does that put you?" what does that mean, what is he referring to? Is he talking about Jayne, does he know what happened? or is he alluding to something in relation to River or someone else?

EDIT: btw, River's expression is priceless right then too :)

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Wednesday, September 10, 2003 9:19 PM

BISHOP

something else I just noticed too.. when Jubal first lands on serenity and peeks into the mess area window from outside, he isnt wearing a glove on his hand.. his gloves are red, but in that scene, it looks like his uncovered hand grasps the side of the window..

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Wednesday, September 10, 2003 10:42 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I think Book is referring to Jayne's betrayal. I don't know how he knows though. might have been Simon who told him. that'd be my guess. It's interesting that he doesn't care about Jayne's innocence though, as he is a preacher. Book, like Mal, is more concerned about the loyalty of the crew than their crimes. This says interesting things about Book.

I'll have to watch that scene with Early again to check on the glove conundrum you mention.

...and by the way Bishop, where did you come up with your name? ...cause it's mine too.

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 3:22 AM

SARAHETC

Y'all think Book is remarking that to Jayne? That never occured to me and now that it does, it makes a lot more sense. Or is at least a lesser mystery.

I always assumed that Book's remark was meant for River and that's why she looks so shocked.

But now, like, my mind is altered. If Book's remark isn't meant for/about River then nobody elses is either, except maybe Jayne. Or, alternately, only those that make eye contact with her during that period are really talking to/thinking about her. That wouldn mean that really on Simon and Jayne are concerned with her-- which makes a lot of sense.

Of course, this makes Book's remarks more mysterious again, but in a different way.

I'm having a total mental paradigm shift or something. Thanks guys.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 3:45 AM

IDEFIX

I have to watch OIS again. that seams to make a lot more sense and I never saw it that way before.

...where are my Firefly CDs?

Idefix

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:14 AM

KAYTHRYN

But was Jayne’s “I got stupid, the money was too good” just about his recent betrayal to the Tams or was it about all the other stupid things he’s done in the past for money? Do you think River was hearing just something that everyone was thinking about right then, or just something? Maybe Book wasn’t even talking about Jayne. And maybe Jayne was talking about some other past stupid thing, for instance the time he pushed his buddy out of the hover craft in hopes that he could make away with the stolen money. When Book and Jayne were talking about him being a Saint he could have been thinking of some other time he betrayed someone because the money was too good.

Maybe.

Well, okay, or not.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 6:07 AM

SERGEANTX

It never seemed to me like Book's comment had anything to do with River or Jayne. The complete change in personality exhibited when he says the line indicates to me that this is revealing something about a side of his personality completely removed from anything we've seen while he's been with the crew of Serenity. He's either leading some kind of dual life, or this is something from deep in his past(my assumption), fueling the various theories about who Book really is.

It's possible the anticipated movie will shed some light on this. But this kind of issue raises an interesting question concerning how the movie will deal with the various story arcs that began in the series. It seems to me, given that the movie will have to be a self-contained story, that any kind of mysteries touched on will be resolved in a more or less complete way. One of the most enjoyable things about the series is the way each of the characters situations is revealed incrementally, given deeper understanding but always leaving you with as many questions as answers. Would you all prefer that these kind of mysteries be resolved in the movie, or would you rather take your chances, hoping that the series will find its way back on the air and give the story arcs their originally intended development?

Keep in mind that Joss has stated publicly that the movie is intended as a one off production, and not an attempt to jump-start the series....Yeah, right, sure.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 7:00 AM

MAGUINAN

I'm weighing in with the sarge on this one. I think some of the lines she hears are related to her, others are related to the conversation she was overhearing, and some are related to the character saying them. Some are statements people have already said, and some are statements people haven't said yet. Also, I really like the subtlety of the ocean/breaking waves sound they play when she's spying on zoe/wash. That was a nice touch.

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 7:08 AM

MELEAUX

I am convinced that each statement spoken to River is directed to River. Not, for instance Book to Jayne. About the upcoming movie, I read somewhere a quote from Joss about the difficulties in introducing the stories to a whole new audience and remaining fresh to his loyal followers. Quite a conundrum I would immagine. I only hope that he doesn't waste time on the pointless and non-effective sexual tension between Mal and Inara. I was personally really happy for Mal in the HOG episode. ~` Though I must admit that scene where Inara weeps after learning of Mal's -uhm- relations with her friend was the first moment of genuine emotion I think I'd scene out of her. She effectively communicated true heartbreak.
I am mostly looking forward to finding out the mystery behind Book.

She understands, she doesn't comprehend

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 9:16 AM

BISHOP

Inara did such an excellent job in that episode too, if you catch the very last scene, right when she turns away from Mal, she breaks down and starts to cry, but you can just barely catch it as she is turning, so Mal cant see it, only we can. Im astounded how well this cast fits their characters and how real everything is.

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 9:18 AM

BISHOP

In response to ManiacNumberOne, I actually normally go by the name Bishop Ebonhand as it is my staff nic for the free UO shards I run, but fireflyfans doesnt allow spaces/underscores/dashes in usernames so I just shortened it :/

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 9:59 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I didn't think all of Rivers scenes wherein she's overhearing thoughts were of the same caliber. What I mean is, I don't think they are all the same kind of visions. When Simon/Kaylee are talking, River gets from Simon something like "I'd be there right now" which reflects how his situation is in direct relation to Rivers predicament, but the vision-statment fits into the story he was telling Kaylee. I thought Jayne's thoughts were a direct mind-reading by River, and Book's was a response to That reading. It seems the same way with Mal/Inara as with Book/Jayne, River seems to be picking up on what the other characters want to say to each other, but for whatever reason they cannot do so. Inara's thought was directed at Mal, and Mal's back at her, but neither had any realization. I believe only Simon's thought was actually triggered by her. I should clarify what I mean when I say "thought" - I believe that it's possible that some of the character's "thoughts" are ones which they are not even aware they are having. I mean, I think those thoughts aren't on the forefront of their mind's when we hear River hear them. I believe the person who is being read by River is totally unaware that they have been having the thoughts they had.

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 10:03 AM

BISHOP

I can agree with that. Its curious though, Mal's response to Inara. "It doesnt mean a damn thing".

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 11:04 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Fortunately we will get more to that scene in the upcoming dvd, which I am certain will explain more about that. Personally, I think Mal is doing 2 things... making a general observation about the meaninglessness of everything, and specifically thinking about Inara and their relationship as it has changed since he slept with Nandi. He may be thinking that it doesn't matter that he slept with Nandi, because Inara and he were a hopeless cause anyway. Inara is a companion so it's likely that Mal is getting a subtle revenge on her. They are not the traditional courting couple.

-------------------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
-------------------------------------------

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 11:26 AM

SHEWHOHATHAPEN

I'm in the camp that believes that each thought River read was related to something different. In fact, I'm not convinced that any of the thoughts River picked up were directed towards her at all. Mostly because no one actually acknowledges River's presence at all until she has the gun. She walks into the common area where Simon and Kaylee are and actually moves towards them, then retreats once she reads Simon. She walks through the mess right past Book and Jayne where they would have to have seen her, yet their conversation goes on just as it had before she entered. She stands right down the catwalk in clear view of Mal and Inara, then runs frantically down the stairs with no acknowledgement. In fact, the fact that no one notices her makes me think that she wasn't physically there at all. I think that there was some hint that perhaps River is capable of astral projection in War Stories when she declares to Simon that when she was well she "heard with [her] ears" obviously a reference to normally being telepathic and as such hearing not with her ears but with her mind, which would leave her "walked on [her] feet" comment as a possible allusion to "travelling" in some other manner. Also, her not physically having been wandering amongst the crew would help to explain how she got the gun. I could almost believe that while River's astral self was wandering Serenity her body was dressing, walking straight to the weapon's locker, getting a gun and proceeding to the cargo bay. I think at any rate it's quite obvious that the gun wasn't just sitting on the floor, locked and loaded.

But anyway on to giving a rundown of how I saw each instance of mind-reading.

Simon- "I'd be there right now." This is the one that seems most obviously to be something directed specifically at River. But for reasons previously mentioned, I don't think it was. I believe that that thought was triggered in Simon's mind by his conversation with Kaylee about his Medacad exploits. Naturally, as he's fondly remebering somewhere in his mind he carried the thought that if not for this or that he'd still be there. Now, to look at how he said it. He's expression, the fact that he, in my mind, was the only one who actually looked directly at River, was definitely accusatory. But I think that was because River feels guilty and she was able to pick up on the fact that Simon does in some part blame her for everything he's lost. As evidenced by his Freudian slip later in the episode where he tells Kaylee that he'd be there "if she hadn't... [looks guiltily at the floor] if they had just left her alone." Simon is obviously having an internal conflict. He wants to blame the Blue Hands and only the Blue Hands but logic dictates that if River had not reached out to him and begged him to save her then he might not be in his current predicament. He also feels terrible that he harbors that feeling, but it's still there. River knows so I think that the accusatory tone in her reading of him was in part from her own guilt and in part from his actual feelings of that nature. SO I guess my thesis here would be that since we very definitely saw that scene from River's POV that we need to keep in mind that the things River reads from other people's minds and how she perceives may be affected by her own emotions.

Jayne- "I got stupid. The money was too good." This to me is a demonstration of the fact that Jayne has not forgotten about Ariel. He can't and he probably never will. He's nervous and maybe even feels guilty about it. That is his excuse. He got stupid. It was the money. Not directed at River, even though it's in part about River, but more just something that lingers in his mind all the time, floating just below the surface.

Book- "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?" This I read as having nothing to do with River or anyone else on Serenity at all. In fact, I took this very much as a memory. Book is very clearly looking downward, even though there's no one there. It seemed to have the feeling of an interrogation he performed or something. Obviously connected to Book's mysterious past. Now, why he was thinking about it right there? Perhaps because he and Jayne are discussing his being a Shepard, which might make his mind go to what he was before he was one.

Wash/Zoe- This one doesn't really bear any explanation, I don't think. ;-)

Inara- "I'm a big girl, just tell me." This was all about Mal. I think it's what she wants to say to Mal but for whatever reason can't bring herself to. It directly correlates to the conversation she's having with Mal about him not flying anywhere near any planets where she can find clients. Obviously, she's aware that Mal is doing this for a reason and she wants him to admit why. She's certain that she can handle it.

Mal- "None of it means a damn thing." This one, I don't actually pin as being solely related to the conversation with Inara. In fact, I read this statement (and the desolation and hopeless resignation in the way he says it) as a summation of Mal's delicate psychological state. Certainly, he's having a conflict with Inara because he has feelings for her and she has feelings for him but for all their reasons they refuse to/can't do anything about it. Sure, he's defending something that he's done to her. But in the end it's all meaningless. He's empty and hollow and no matter what ghosts of feeling he may have in him the truth remains nothing means anything at all.

And as an ancillary note, I've always found it very interesting that River didn't pick up anything in words from Kaylee. In fact, Kaylee seems almost to become a part of River's reading of Simon as her expression changes just as his does. But an interesting thought had occured to me, that Kaylee's annoyed accustory expression (which definitely seemed to be directed towards River) was perhaps a manifestation of the fact that Kaylee feels that River is one of the things keeping Simon from her. So ironically, even as River reads Simon's thoughts she can see Kaylee in the background, annoyed that River has intruded, and made him think of things besides her.

Of course, I'm probably reaching, but it's fun to speculate anyhow.

Firefly brings this over-analytical-ness out of me.

---
"I'm very sorry if she tipped off anyone about your cunningly concealed herd of cows."

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 12:04 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

I agree, with the exception of Simon, none of what River reads of her shipmates' thoughts are directed at her.

I'm not sure if Book is remembering a past interrogation or berating himself. I tend to think it's the latter. Maybe shedding some light on why he became a Man of the Cloth.

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 2:35 PM

ZENCAT

SheWhoHathAPen (and I just now figured out that that isn't your "Egyptian name") I agree almost completely with your interpretation of River's visions and whatnot. This is how I saw it too. I think there are a lot of layers to what everyone was thinking, even Jayne, he of few layers. It seemed clear to me that her physical body was "walking on her feet" and getting the gun, while her "spirit self" was roaming the ship, perhaps unwilling to bear witness to what her hands were doing. Further, I think that that "split" of her conscious mind from her unconscious intent reveals the conflict River is experiencing over the violence she committed. (This sort of split of the conscious and unconscious mind, apart from the psychic angle, has been documented in mental patients many times, for example in people who do something, like tear off the clothing, that they are consciously unaware of doing, and even deny while they're doing it.) It's a wonderful bit of writing, showing River's distress and confusion over what she has become in a way that's totally unique to the character. Part of her, the physical part that's capable of direct action, acts out the conflict by finding and loading the gun, while the "feeling" part of her leaves, walks away from that internal conflict to wander in the place where she feels safest. But the things that she finds in her home make her feel unsafe - Simon and Kaylee's hidden anger towards her, Jayne's betrayal, Book's ferocity, Mal and Inara's despair-even the passion between Zoe and Wash, though a pleasant emotion, was disturbing. She flees from the "crowd" in her mind to the only place there is to go - back to her self, and at that point, she's still not able/willing to see the object she's holding for what it is. She speaks to herself - "It's just an object. It's not what you think" - as if to comfort herself. (The imagery of the fallen autumn leaves and the broken twig are very evocative, to me, of River's crushed innocence.) What do you think of what she tells Mal? "She understands. She doesn't comprehend." Which "she" is speaking, and what is she talking about?

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 2:48 PM

KAYTHRYN

This isn't at all thought out, but I always just figured that Kaylee didn't speak up because she didn't have any guilty/angry/upset kind of thoughts in her head at the time. She's a very happy person.

When I first saw OiS I figured that what River saw was everyone’s secrets, or things they just didn't talk about. Mal and Inara's thoughts on their relationship, Simon wishing that River hadn't messed up his life, something from Books unknown past, Jayne's betrayal, and well, Wash and Zoë didn't quite fit in my little theory, but that made me think Kaylee didn't have any secrets she was embarrassed about. She certainly had things in her past that might possibly embarrass someone else, but not her.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 3:45 PM

TZEGHA

"She understands. She doesn't comprehend."

I just took that to meant that she was aware of the existence of her confusion and ignorance.

She understands the fact that she doesn't comprehend what these things mean, or why the gun was a stick. But that doesn't make her confusion any less, or any more clear.

Knowing that the water is muddy doesn't allow you to see to the bottom.

Maybe?

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 4:37 PM

GOATUS

I thought she was just crazy.
hehe

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:21 PM

PARADIGMSHIFT

It seemed to me that all of the comments were less directed specifically to River, but had relevance to River in some way. So, in that way, I do think that Book's comment had something to do with RIver. I have always thought that there was something far darker to Book than we have ever seen, and even the stage direction in the script says "(deadly)".

Also, the statement about "innocence" I always viewed as a more general statement than a specific statement about a certain event (a. k. a. Jayne's betrayal of the Tams). It was the first statement that really got me thinking that there is something Book knows about River's predicament than the others (possibly even River herself) don't know.

At least, that's what I got from it.

Paradigm Shift
Because sometimes a radical change is not only necessary, but damn fun!

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 9:26 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I like thinking that she may have been astral projecting, but that still leaves the problem of the gun. How did it get there? Did her body go into Jayne's room, load it and set in on the floor? only to be immediately forgotten by her until she picks it up a few minutes later?
It also leaves the problem of why Simon looked at her during her vision and immediately beforehand. He couldn't have seen a projection.

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Thursday, September 11, 2003 11:10 PM

BISHOP

Maniac, that is exactly the thing that didnt sit well with me.. the fact that Simon acknowledged her directly, she had to have been physically there. I think that maybe the fact that nobody else acknowledged her presence at all also says something about their feelings towards her, maybe it was written for that effect. Something they problably arent conscious of, but they have a tendancy to often treat her as if she isnt there.

Just my observation anyway.. Aint much, but its enough.

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Friday, September 12, 2003 11:10 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I went looking for the scene you mentioned with Early and the missing glove... didn't find it. Looked pretty hard too. I saw him land on the ship, and walk along it, and bend down to the ship listening, but he always had his gloves on. And when he comes into the ship, his gloves are still on. So, I must have a different copy than you, or I missed it because I am blind.
I did notice something strange though. When Early first enters the ship, he opens the hatch and a lot of white light spills in. Shouldn't that be black space out there? Where is the light coming from? An antechamber?

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Friday, September 12, 2003 11:44 AM

BISHOP

i think the white light is just internal lighting to the airlock.

the scene im talking about (and my copy isnt the greatest quality) is when Jubal is walking on the outside of the ship, when he first lands on it.. he walks to the windows on the front of the mess area (still outside the ship) and crawls up to the window, the camera changes to the inside of the mess area and is looking out the viewport Jubal's head enters the area from the top (he's looking down into the window) and his left hand grasps a pillar between two windows. thats the part where it looks like he is bare handed.. maybe its just my cope, but it looks fleshtone and not red like his glove is in the next scene.

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Friday, September 12, 2003 1:27 PM

SHEWHOHATHAPEN

Quote:
This isn't at all thought out, but I always just figured that Kaylee didn't speak up because she didn't have any guilty/angry/upset kind of thoughts in her head at the time. She's a very happy person.

Actually this was my original interpretation of that when I first saw OiS. It was obvious that River was picking up everyone's secret, guilty thoughts and the truths on the other side of the lies they tell, so it really does make perfect sense that Kaylee being such a completely guileless person wouldn't have any such thoughts. Everything that she is is always right there for everyone to see.

The reason I posited my other theory, however, was because she definitely did look angry while River was reading Simon. So my mind reached out for a reason. Of course, it could go back to my theory about River's emotions affecting her readings of other people and as such she perceived Kaylee as being angry at her too, just because she felt guilty.

Quote:
SheWhoHathAPen (and I just now figured out that that isn't your "Egyptian name")

Hehehehe.

Quote:
What do you think of what she tells Mal? "She understands. She doesn't comprehend." Which "she" is speaking, and what is she talking about?

I always saw that as a direct answer to his question about whether she understands the danger of the gun. I think it's an interesting insight into the character inasmuch as I took it as her saying that part of her understands completely what the gun is, how it works, what it does, but at the same time her screwed up perceptions don't allow her to truly grasp the full weight and/or importance of what is happening sometimes. I've always read a slight semantic difference between the words "understand" and "comprehend" and I think it was being played with wonderfully there.

Quote:
I like thinking that she may have been astral projecting, but that still leaves the problem of the gun. How did it get there? Did her body go into Jayne's room, load it and set in on the floor? only to be immediately forgotten by her until she picks it up a few minutes later?
It also leaves the problem of why Simon looked at her during her vision and immediately beforehand. He couldn't have seen a projection.

I always assumed that her astral self wasn't consolidated with her physical self until she actually spoke. In other words, I took it that while her astral self stepped on an imaginary stick leaned over and picked it up, her physical self didn't actually do those things, but rather that whole scenario was a way for River's mind to make some sort of Crazy-River-Sense of how the gun came to be in her hand. So, instead of taking responsibility for going and getting the gun she could her conscious mind could pass it off the same way that she did when Simon asked her where she got the gun: "It was in my hand."

As far as Simon looking at her (Kaylee looks at her too)... I did notice that and I honestly have no real explanation. As it is the astral projection idea didn't occur to me while I was watching the show until after she had seen everyone else because it did seem in that part of the scene that Simon and Kaylee notice her there. Then, River picks up Simon's thought. But that still doesn't explain why as River is leaving their conversation doesn't seem to have paused at all. When they cut from the reading Simon is still very much engrossed in telling the story. Now presumably, while we were seeing in River-Vision he and Kaylee both could have addressed River and who knows what else. But the dialogue indicates that the only thing we missed from Kaylee and Simon's conversation is a little detail of his story: What song he was singing... on the statue of Hippocrates... drunk... and naked.

achem

Anyway, it just doesn't seem like either of them would just ignore River if they were aware of her, and go on with their merriment. Especially when she gets that haunted look on her face and leaves. Simon is the best brother ever, after all. I think he'd have at least asked where she was going, or something. Especially, if the last time he saw her she was sleeping.

Quote:
I think that maybe the fact that nobody else acknowledged her presence at all also says something about their feelings towards her, maybe it was written for that effect. Something they problably arent conscious of, but they have a tendancy to often treat her as if she isnt there.

Interesting idea. Most of the time, barring Simon, every else does pay River little mind unless she's doing something insane. I could almost buy that them seeming not to acknowledge her presence at all could be in reality be the other way around. In other words, she could be failing to perceive them acknowledging her in part because she's distracted by their thoughts and in part because she thinks that they ignore her. It's not too far-fetched an idea that if someone on Serenity spoke to River as she was passing by but she didn't speak to them they'd just chalk it up to her not being quite right and go about their business. But even if we throw away the astral projection angle (which I am averse to doing, just cuz I think it's shiny) we're back at the mystery of the gun and how she ended up with it.

---
"I'm very sorry if she tipped off anyone about your cunningly concealed herd of cows."

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Friday, September 12, 2003 1:44 PM

BISHOP

ok, lets focus on what we do know..

the gun belongs to jayne. it was in his weapon area next to his bunk, and was stored unloaded(doesnt make much sense that it would have been unloaded, I think it was loaded, knowing Jayne, and that it maybe just wasnt chambered and this is what Mal was referring to when he said "loaded").

Im still having a problem with the whole astral projection thing, doesnt fit.. assuming that she was astral projecting, she still had to walk past inara and mal with gun in hand to get it down to the cargo bay and I think at least Mal would have seen it.

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Friday, September 12, 2003 3:29 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

I don't think she's able to astrally project (if that's the way one would state it). It appears that Simon and Kaylee are the only one's who notice her, I think Kaylee even speaks to her, but the rest of the crew are thoroughly distracted (some more than others) to pay her any mind. The fact is she wanders through the ship and finds the gun. Somehow it's Jayne's that's probably a slip in the writing. I thought it was the hideway they keep on the 4-wheeler, until Mal yelled a Jayne. I don't know why that was necessary, except that seems to be part of the character development (Mal constantly discipling Jayne).

I think the implied astral projection is a trick by the writers, you get the impression she can dematerialize until near the end, when you realize she put on a suit (which she learned how to do in Bushwacked and slipped off the boat.

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Friday, September 12, 2003 6:05 PM

WILLIAMX

Object in Space is my very favorite ep . . .just sayin'

Yes, when Early is cruising down the side of the ship his glove is missing. I kind of ignore that.

River was picking up a lot of things, and my thuoghts have already been expressed by some others here, but I'll recap:

Simon is bummed that he's not living the life of ease, He'd be there right now if he could.
Kaylee just looks at her cuz she's afraid and suspicious.
Jayne noticed her when she came in and is feeling all guilty about his turning them in. He feels it every time he sees her.
Book is reliving an interogation.
Zoe and Wash, you know . . .
Inara- She just wants Mal to come out and say I dig you lets get it on but first you need to quit this companion gig. (In addition, I just want to say it was really wierd and kind of . . . not that great that she busted out in tears during HoG. I thought she was stronger than that, more in control of herself and besides, why would she get all weepy when she knows it's just sex and part of the payment she insisted that Mal take . . . Not like in OMR when there was a real possibility that she might actually have to give up on Mal. That scene is one of the few gripes I have with the show.)
Mal, is feeling the existential agnst. None of it means a damn thing indeed. recall he was once a religious dude before the Independens gave up the fight.

All Glory is Fleeting

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Friday, September 12, 2003 6:32 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

I think you're on target on both OIS and HOG.

I didn't like it when Inara broke over Mal sleeping with her friend. It was good to show a reaction but, the reaction should have been much more subtle. Maybe a quick dab of a single tear or a downward glance that the other companion noticed.

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Friday, September 12, 2003 6:50 PM

DRAKON

Take a look at the hands when you see them through Serenity's windows before panning over to Kaylee's telling everyone about River.

The light is coming from the airlock. The hatch does not open directly into space, all the air in Serenity would get sucked out. There has to be an airlock.

Also, something I just noticed today. Note the coloring of the planet behind Serenity at the beginning, when the camera passes overhead, and River's jackball at the very end. The coloring is very similar, like she is not holding a ball, but an entire world. :)

Also, in "The Message" when Simon and River are in the booth with the Alien, wife turned to me and said "Simon looks good in a Sandman uniform."

"Where is my damn spaceship?"

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Friday, September 12, 2003 6:55 PM

DRAKON

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This isn't at all thought out, but I always just figured that Kaylee didn't speak up because she didn't have any guilty/angry/upset kind of thoughts in her head at the time. She's a very happy person.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Take another look at Kaylee's facial expression while Simon does his line about "still being there" That is not a happy Kaylee.

"Where is my damn spaceship?"

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Saturday, September 13, 2003 8:06 PM

SERGEANTX

I think its less a matter of happy or sad, than of duplicity. Kaylee is as pure as they come... no guilt, no secrets. That's why River didn't have anything particular to read from Kaylee.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Tuesday, December 23, 2003 8:59 AM

PAUSTARK

After reading these posts I am wondering if River was picking up the thoughts of those harboring their greatest weakness within their subconcious.

Mal "It Doesnt mean a dam" Perhaps he felt the fight for Serenity was doomed and never admitted it.

Inara "Im a big girl..etc" She feels she has a need to prove she is more than just a companion but someone who can really contribute.

Book: "I dont care of your innocent..." Maybe he did something in the alliance, protested his innocence and lost everything and that led to his being a Shephard which he thought would better him, but it did not.

I know there are others whose thoughts she read, but I think this is enought comment for now, besides, I have to get back to work!!

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Tuesday, December 23, 2003 11:51 AM

ZACHSMIND

Something to keep in mind when attempting to interpret the telepathic surface thoughts River gets early in the episode, when the actor delivers the line directly to the camera, s/he is referring to River when the line is said. If s/he is looking away from the camera, it's not directed towards River, but is in fact a thought that's more about the situation in general. Also, we're given this glimpse into River's mind for story purposes, to keep up off balance as the story builds up to the first real tense moment of the episode: where the branch turns into a gun. However, this is probably what's going on in River's mind all the time.

Go back to Ariel. As Simon and Jayne are escorting River in her wheelchair, she interjects that she believes that intern is accidently killing that patient. She knew that because if the director had allowed us River's POV in that moment, we probably would have heard the Intern lacking confidence in what he was doing and the patient was perhaps dreaming but sensing something in his body chemistry was changing. River's picking up on this along with the convetional conversation we're hearing. We may think she's insane, but she's acting rational towards her subjective sensory input. It just seems irrational to anyone else because they're not getting everything she's getting.

Also I'm not convinced this psychic stuff is actual mind reading so much as her conscious interpretation of unconscious calculations of probability, but that'd take a bit of time to explain. I think Joss Whedon has a perfectly pseudoscience way to explain River's behavior that doesn't involve conventional definitions of ESP, I'll leave it at that.

Wash/Zoe- This one doesn't really bear any explanation, I don't think. ;-)

Actually I think it does. Which one was the ocean and which one was violin? We get no actual words here. Just emotion, and it's so overwhelming it makes River ill. "She feels everything," as Simon put it in Ariel, "She can't not." So she's not getting words there for a reason. All she sensed was raw passion which simultaneously attracts her and repels her.

Jayne- "I got stupid. The money was too good."

These are the exact same words Jayne said to Mal at the end of Ariel. In the scene he is looking directly to the camera. He says them right to River. He suspects she knows but doesn't know she knows. It's what he would say to her if he knew she knew.

Simon- "I'd be there right now."

Again, he's looking directly at River when he says it. So this should be something he'd say to River if he could, but doesn't know how she'd take it so he doesn't say it. We know because of how River reacts later, and what she says, that this realization between the two of them is painful for them both. It's River's fault that Simon has had to throw away his career - his life, to save his sister. However, it's not her fault any more than it's his. It was ultimately his choice. The real fault is with the Men In Blue Gloves, but they can't do anything about it right now. This also goes back to Ariel. River said this to Simon just before he saved that guy from the incompetent intern. Simon was talking about all the talented and well-intentioned people in any hospital, and River said "where you should be right now" so this may be an echo of her sentiment in Simon's head.

Book- "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?"

This line is not directed to River. Notice that when they cut away from the telepathic line, Book is looking almost directly at the camera as he's laughing, which after the previous shot feels just as eerie cuz now we see Book as two-faced. He's laughing on the outside and is being jovial towards Jayne, but that's not what's really going on beneath the surface. Deep down we've seen a slice of Book as a very scary and heartless man.

In that scene and for the rest of the series after Ariel, there were multiple times when Jayne seemed to purposefully attempt to ingratiate himself towards Book. The two of them started hanging out together more often, even taking to lifting weights together. Book was bemused by this, that Jayne felt (and UNCONSCIOUSLY thought) if he could be nice to the shepherd maybe it would earn him some brownie points either in this world or the hereafter. Book picked up on this either consciously or unconsciously. That's what's in his words. He doesn't care whether or not Jayne is innocent, but Jayne THINKS Book is a man of the cloth. Since Book isn't a shepherd (as we insinuate from Early's statement later in OIS), where does that put Jayne? It's like Jayne is trying to win his way into heaven by befriending the shepherd. Like he's ingratiating himself and being nice to people and laying low so that if/when the others find out about his betrayal behavior, maybe they'll go easy on him, but Book could care less one way or the other. Where does that put Jayne? From Ron Glass' very deadly and fiendish delivery of the line, we can surmise that doesn't put Jayne in a very good place at all.

All this goes to an opinion I've had about Book since The Train Job. I think the reason Book knows Niska's modus operandi so well is because Book used to be like Niska - perhaps even worse than Niska. Whether Book is purposefully trying to rehabilitate himself by joining the monastery, or if this is all a front and he's waiting for his moment to return to old tricks, we don't know. We've never actually had a scene in which Niska and Book have met face to face with the others in the room. I think if that ever happens, Niska's going to recognize our innocent little Shepherd.

Inara- "I'm a big girl, just tell me."

Inara's looking into the camera (River POV) when she says this line. she's saying it TO River. Why? We're left to speculate. However, she's not sending that thought to Mal. Like with Jayne and Simon, those words are directed to River. I mean, if the director wanted us to think that line was meant for Mal, it was wrong to direct the actress to look directly at the camera. It communicated it poorly to the audience.

Mal- "None of it means a damn thing."

This is aimed away from the camera, and away from Inara. It's a general statement Mal has about the situation. Not just the immediate situation with Inara, but everything in general. Since the battle of Serenity when they lost the war, this has been Mal's sentiment about everything. He is deep down a very lost soul. He doesn't believe in God, because he saw no miracles on the battlefield. He doesn't believe in people generally, because they almost always let him down. He doesn't so much even believe in himself, but realizes his own actions are the only thing that's keeping him going. That and the ship. That they're still flying, but there's no real destination in mind. Mal's just surviving. He's not living. It's why he allowed himself to enjoy the embarrassment of being naked in Trash. That went well cuz he's still alive. They're still flying. They got paid. So what if he's naked? None of it means a damn thing. Inara may be upset with him but so what? None of it means a damn thing. He wants to tell her to stop whoring and he wants to marry her and make a proper woman out of her. But why bother? None of it means a damn thing. It's a mantra that River probably hears out of Mal's brain several times a day.

------------------------------
"Always thought you needed a bit more
evidence to convict a man than the
color of his coat."

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Tuesday, December 23, 2003 7:08 PM

KELSO

Over the past few days I have begun to develop a bit of an obsession with this episode (watched it 4 times in 3 days).

I agree with most everything that Shewhohathapen has said.

Here is how I see it...

Simon and Kaylee look up for a moment as River's physical body walks by and then resume thier conversation. River's mental self (for lack of a better term) lingers for a moment until she is distressed by the thought she hears in Simons mind.

While watching both Zoe and Wash and Mal and Inara, she is overwhelmed by the waves of feelings that she experiances. When she runs away she is in fact withdrawing back into her physical self, which is when she discovers an object in her hand (which is symbolized by stepping on a twig). She studies the object for a moment but she does not associate it with the meaning that everyone else does... death. It is simply an object.

The theme running throughout the episode is the meanings that we imbue to objects. A room, a gun, mean different things to different people. River no longer experiances the world as we do. Some of the meanings that we generally associate with specific objects are lost to her.

There are a few things about the ep. that still elude me...

#1: Why does Early taste the ship? Is it that he suddenly felt that something was wrong? Perhaps he had experianced the ship with each of his other senses but suddenly realised that he had neglected one. Is there a deaper meaning here?

#2: How does Inara know that Early is tired? On the surface it would seem that she is simply trying to persuade him to give up this hunt and leave them alone... but I can't help but feel that there is a deaper meaning that Joss intended that is running under the surface.

Well, here I am.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 12:21 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaythryn:
This isn't at all thought out, but I always just figured that Kaylee didn't speak up because she didn't have any guilty/angry/upset kind of thoughts in her head at the time. She's a very happy person.

Watched the sequence last night, and oddly, Kaylee stares straight at River when Simon speaks. Its a look that says quite a lot; that River is the reason that she and Simon get so close and then drive each other apart (note that its Kaylee on screen when River says "be who they want to be with")

"I threw up on your bed"

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 12:29 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

[quoute]#1: Why does Early taste the ship? Is it that he suddenly felt that something was wrong? Perhaps he had experianced the ship with each of his other senses but suddenly realised that he had neglected one. Is there a deaper meaning here?

Early simply doesn't seem to think as we think - he has to experience something totally, and acts on impulse as we see. Unlike River, who has blocks in her mind that break down at points, Early seems to have no such thing - he thinks it he does it. Hence he loved the dog but he hurt the dog.

Quote:
#2: How does Inara know that Early is tired? On the surface it would seem that she is simply trying to persuade him to give up this hunt and leave them alone... but I can't help but feel that there is a deaper meaning that Joss intended that is running under the surface.

Early clearly sees that its a ruse - suggests that Companions may have some method of speaking (perhaps a like the "voice" in Dune) that is persuasive, and Early recognises it early (sorry) enough to disrupt her.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 7:16 PM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by Bishop:
ok, lets focus on what we do know..

the gun belongs to jayne. it was in his weapon area next to his bunk, and was stored unloaded(doesnt make much sense that it would have been unloaded, I think it was loaded, knowing Jayne, and that it maybe just wasnt chambered and this is what Mal was referring to when he said "loaded").

Well, he had to load one of his guns when the Reaver ship was approaching in 'Serenity', so we know that at least some of those guns on his wall are not left loaded at all times.

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 7:21 PM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
Early clearly sees that its a ruse - suggests that Companions may have some method of speaking (perhaps a like the "voice" in Dune) that is persuasive, and Early recognises it early (sorry) enough to disrupt her.

Perhaps the mystery vial is a drug that gives her this Dune-Like (or god help us Love-Potion-Number-8-Like) voice power...

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 8:20 PM

BECKINSALE

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kaythryn:
This isn't at all thought out, but I always just figured that Kaylee didn't speak up because she didn't have any guilty/angry/upset kind of thoughts in her head at the time. She's a very happy person.

Watched the sequence last night, and oddly, Kaylee stares straight at River when Simon speaks. Its a look that says quite a lot; that River is the reason that she and Simon get so close and then drive each other apart (note that its Kaylee on screen when River says "be who they want to be with")

"I threw up on your bed"

Misguided By Voices, I actually thought that same thing. I also noticed that Kaylee was on screen when River said those words. I thought it was rather obvious.

Actually, I felt that Kaylee seemed almost annoyed or frustrated at River's presence. I think the only reason she doesn't speak is because words aren't needed to demonstrate this. Not that I think Kaylee is walking around "annoyed" at River. Just that, no matter how much you like someone, if they interrupt something you’re enjoying or that is important to you, it will bother you. And often times Simon's dedication to River seems to "interrupt" the "flow" of Kaylee's relationship with Simon.

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Friday, January 23, 2004 1:20 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by Beckinsale:
Actually, I felt that Kaylee seemed almost annoyed or frustrated at River's presence. I think the only reason she doesn't speak is because words aren't needed to demonstrate this. Not that I think Kaylee is walking around "annoyed" at River. Just that, no matter how much you like someone, if they interrupt something you’re enjoying or that is important to you, it will bother you. And often times Simon's dedication to River seems to "interrupt" the "flow" of Kaylee's relationship with Simon.

I think its a lot more nuanced than that. She can't be with Simon, because Simon is focused on helping his sister. She get upset at that, because, well, River is a nice person, and has been cruelly treated, and what Simon is doing is the right thing to do. Morally if not legally. So she gets mad at herself for being mad at herself, for being selfish for the affections of a very unselfish, if wooden, guy. And if he weren't so unselfish, he would not be as attractive.

The very facets of Simon she finds attractive is the very facets that are keeping them from being together. River's been badly treated, and even saved Kaylee's life, so she can't be mad at her.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Friday, January 23, 2004 4:07 PM

KALATHENA

I just finished watching "Heart of Gold" and "Objects in Space" tonight. After seeing them both in a row like that, I don't think Inara's comment had anything to do with Mal or River.

At the end of HoG she talks to Mal about the strength of a family and how after that is built, you cannot pull yourself away from it. Then she tells him that she's leaving.

My new thought is that the "strength of family" she talks about has *nothing* to do with the crew of Serenity. It has to do with the something that she is not running from, but running to. She has a deep obligation to someone or a group of someone's that she considers family. Her duty was sidetracked due to her involvement with Serenity.

Now come to OiS. I believe her "I'm a big girl, just tell me." again has nothing to do with anyone on Serenity, but is related to her familial obligation/duty that she has decided once again to undertake.

--Kala

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Saturday, January 24, 2004 11:05 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Perhaps the mystery vial is a drug that gives her this Dune-Like (or god help us Love-Potion-Number-8-Like) voice power...

Rewatched Serenity last night and got to thinking on what this could be.

can't be that - because she would know Reavers wouldn't respond. Can't be medicine, because why would she need it at that moment?

I'm wondering, is it something that she has from the Companions that can't fall into "enemy" hands. Given her look when queried on why she left, is it something she took?

"I threw up on your bed"

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Saturday, January 24, 2004 11:12 AM

SAINT JAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
I'm wondering, is it something that she has from the Companions that can't fall into "enemy" hands.

Say, that's an interesting twist. She always looked like she was preparing to use it, but what if it was a precious substance? Now I feel like Jayne pointing at Tracey and saying, "Gold!"

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Friday, January 30, 2004 4:27 PM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by SheWhoHathAPen:
I could almost believe that while River's astral self was wandering Serenity her body was dressing

You might not be too far off there, SWHAP. In War Stories, when River tells Simon she threw up and he asks, "but you felt OK this morning?", she replies "played with Kaylee...sun came out and I walked on my feet and heard with my ears...I function like I'm a girl; I hate it because I know it will go away...the sun goes dark and chaos has come again..."

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 6:45 PM

FIREFLYWILDCARD1

I have to go with the astral projection idea because when River walks through the Jayne/Book scene she walks right inbetween the two. Jayne is so uncomfortable around River, I think this would have made him stop speaking for a second or he would have continued looking at her until she was out of the room.

I also think that not all the thoughts River heard were directed at her. I think Mal's "It don't mean nothing" was directed at life in general. If you've seen or read any military fiction and some military history you will notice that this was a common saying among the drafted soldiers. It was a way to get through situations that one doesn't think they can live with for the rest of their life.

Book's line "I don't care..." I think might have a little something to do with River. If you remember in one of the eps (I don't remember the title), she tore up his Bible. Even if he wasn't a Shepherd to begin with and is just trying to redeem himself, that still had to have pissed him off. But again, I also think the majority of the feelings expressed (when the line is heard) have to do with something in his past.

I didn't understand Inara's line at all because it looked like she was looking directly at where astral River was standing.

I think the gun wasn't Jayne's. I know someone else said this as well, but I think the gun came out of the weapons locker. Remember the locker we see in "War Stories"? That's right above the cargo bay, and if I'm seeing things correctly that is right "behind" where River was standing when watching Inara and Mal.

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