Why is Mal anti-companion? by akredhead

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Why is Mal anti-companion?

POSTED BY: AKREDHEAD
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 15:27
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Friday, August 25, 2006 6:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FellowTraveler:
Sorry, but back to the Inara/whore/companion thing for a moment.

With the exception of the counslor (and I suspect more than a backrub ensued), every client Inara sees in the show has engaged her for sex.

I wasn't denying that in any way.

In particular in the instance of Fess, where it may have been his father's idea that Inara relieve Fess of his manhood but Inara obviously took the job because she saw an opportunity to help a young person grow.

She offered the Councellor a moment of respite from her masks.

We don't know what she and the boy in the pilot episode talked about before engaging in sex, but he's from Persephone, just like Atherton, and apparently that planet is not as enlightened about Companions as the Core worlds are. Atherton might have been a self-indulgence for Inara, or an experiment, we can't know.

Sex is obviously part of Inara's service, but it's not the only part, in particular in her own eyes. Sex is a means of emotional release and even has a spiritual aspect, not to mention it's simply a good time when done right. All of that supports what she offers her clients, it's not the point.

Even counting Atherton and the boy as having just hired her for sex, that still gives us a 50% amount of clients - we have seen - where sex was part of the service but not the point of the service. And that's outside the Core, in places like Higgin's moon and whatever planet Niska's circling.

Quote:

Negative connotations aside, a whore is defined as:

a woman who engages in sexual acts for money

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/whore

You see, if you were using the word 'prostitute', which has the same meaning without the social connotations of dirty, diseased, immoral, wanton, poor, stupid, choiceless and victimized, them I might actually agree with you.

A whore is a kind of prostitute the same way a Companion is a kind of prostitute, located on different ends of a scale of degrees, if you will, but they don't, historically, carry the same value. Prostitute is neutral, whore is generally a denigration.

Maybe not to someone like Jayne, who sees no trouble with the entire institution. But someone like Mal, who has the distinct ability to be well-spoken and a very aware, political mind? It is deliberate.

If Mal wasn't using a word - a slur to many - people have villified for centuries, I doubt Inara would be so up in arms about it.

Quote:

What evidence is there that the Guild is anything more than a labor union for prostitutes? It would seem to me (might be wrong) the ladies organized and now have the power to make demands about clients, compensation, working conditions, health care, and the required training of its members.

I actually agree in essence. :)

Of course, the Guild has more influence on a Companion's private life, they personally educate their members and their Training House bore closer resemblence to a temple than anything a mere workers union would have on display. Inara would have been "house priestess".

It's more personal than that, obviously, more like a spiritual order, perhaps, I'm not sure.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 7:15 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Oh yea, it's a mild insult, the same as when Inara calls him a petty thief, but I think it's more to remind himself that she is off limits than to put Inara in her place.

That's true some of the time. But there are moments when, I think, he very deliberately uses the word because he is aware that on occasion, Inara reacts with honestly hurt feelings.

Take the scene with Book in the pilot episode. Inara's look is not one of amusement, and she's angry enough to turn right around and head back to where she came from, Kaylee in tow. After expressing her displeasure with fairly bitter sarcasm. Mal knows how she can react.

Moments like "That distress wouldn't be taking place in someone's pants?" in Heart of Gold, that's a mere jibe and Inara takes it as such.

But in "Shindig", when she's kindly teaching him how to fence, he uses it out of the blue, in what I think is a move to get back some distance. He's confused and angry, he doesn't want to be friendly. W-word works like a charm. They're back to fighting.
In "Trash" ("How about I stay out of your whoring..."), it's the same. Inara intrudes on his business, out comes that word.

In the Out of Gas flashback, it's a direct reaction to her Alliance comment. Those aren't self-directed reminders, they're aimed at Inara, to push her away.

It's a mix of both, I think. Sometimes good-natured, sometimes intended insult.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 7:16 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

I have been giving this some thought and watching my faithful box set and I don't think Mal is anti-companion, he evens says its honest work. Mal is anti INARA being a companion.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, August 25, 2006 7:22 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Slight change of subject: In regards to Inara's dedication to the calling of Companion: There are women (and men for that matter) in America today who fit every definition of a Companion, except one. There are high-class courtesans of both/every gender available, who possess great social skill, commmand high price, and pick and choose their own clientelle.

The one difference is that, of course, in America today their chosen profession is illegal.

My question is, if Inara's chosen profession were against the law, and minus the legal protections and high public status she enjoys, would she still practice it?

That would be the true measure of her dedication.

That one difference you point out here, however, has a good number of consequences. High-class escorts of today don't have the kind of legal recourse and protection that Companions do. The work, although well-paid and probably glamorous to some degree, who knows, is not tied to official benefits. An escort can't report abuse without implicating herself.

And I find the question a bit unnecessarily black and white. Is that the only measure of dedication that exists in the universe, whether you'd do one particular job even if it's illegal?

Inara might have become a therapist or a teacher or a religious figure or something else that include aspects of her work, if Companion wasn't on the menue, but that doesn't mean that she is not dedicated to the job she was able to choose.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 7:49 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
We don't know what she and the boy in the pilot episode talked about before engaging in sex, but he's from Persephone, just like Atherton, and apparently that planet is not as enlightened about Companions as the Core worlds are.

You've said this a few times about Atherton and Persephone and I just can't agree. If anything, Atherton is showing Inara off at the ball. He's proud that he has the standing enough to be accepted as a client. If there were underlying prejudices against companions on Persephone, he certainly wouldn't be doing that. Hiring one would DECREASE his social standing. We know he's shallow enough to care only of his position in society, so to jeopardize that by hiring a companion would be completely out of character. Ath would instead hire her merely for sex, keeping her hidden away and not parade around at the social event of the season. He wants her for sex, but also because it will increase his reputation.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, August 25, 2006 7:54 AM

MAL4PREZ

Who, RJ, good post!

Interesting question about law-breaking. It's going to need to rattle around in my brain... my first thought is that she wouldn't do it. I'm not sure how to back that up, because she does break the law.

...but her law-breaking is to help the crew, and not really anti-establishment. Not until the movie, anyway.

Hmmm. Must think more.

AR - I've always felt like Mal dropping the 'W' word in Shindig was just his cluelessness. Because why would he make that distance, and then reveal himself by asking her not to stay with Ath? Or do I have the order wrong? Must watch the scene again.

AR again - re your later post - Funny you bring up the therapist comparison. I've always thought Inara views herself as that. This happens in a different time where sexuality isn't so vilified. Maybe using sex to comfort or help someone is no different than a therapist speaking kindly to their client. At least, maybe this is how Inara feels.

I think this de-personalizing of sex in Inara's mind is a bit of a smokescreen that she needs because of her mysterious past, which is in the fic I'm working on. (I'm sooooo shameless)

EDIT: Rugbug - good point about Ath! He's obviously not ashamed of her, though he is ridiculed at the end about hiring girlfriends, since he won't be able to anymore.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 8:10 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
You've said this a few times about Atherton and Persephone and I just can't agree. If anything, Atherton is showing Inara off at the ball. He's proud that he has the standing enough to be accepted as a client. If there were underlying prejudices against companions on Persephone, he certainly wouldn't be doing that. Hiring one would DECREASE his social standing. We know he's shallow enough to care only of his position in society, so to jeopardize that by hiring a companion would be completely out of character. Ath would instead hire her merely for sex, keeping her hidden away and not parade around at the social event of the season. He wants her for sex, but also because it will increase his reputation.

You're right, it might really be just Atherton's personal attitude to disrespect a Companion.

It's not a theory I insist upon, but to me it explains the occurence of two less than 100% respectful clients on the same planet. It's an indicator, nothing more.

Atherton might be an exception in his society, or Persephone's society might still be more pervaded by mysogynist thoughts. Either way, he's not the most reliable example for the average Companion's clientele in the Core.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 8:38 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

AR - I've always felt like Mal dropping the 'W' word in Shindig was just his cluelessness. Because why would he make that distance, and then reveal himself by asking her not to stay with Ath? Or do I have the order wrong? Must watch the scene again.

It just seems to be that it would have to be deliberate. He knows how she reacts to that word, and especially in the context of the episode and her close physical proximity at the time, I don't think it's something Mal would casually think about. His body language is secure throughout her reaction and he's not the least bit trying to defuse the perceived insult, which he might had he not meant it.

The scenario, as I see it:
Mal's disturbed that Inara still went with Ath even after his horrible behavior. Hell, she might even have had sex with him, and here she is, like nothing has happened, like the reason Mal insists on fighting this duel is completely meaningless.
Then she's that close to him, straight out of another man's bed, acting like all is well. So he pushes her away, to rattle her. Bring things back to the point.

He starts right up with the lecturing again, BUT Inara's not biting. So he's really down to honesty or nothing. I don't think he meant to reveal himself, actually. That, to me, is the thing that just slips out. *g*

Quote:

AR again - re your later post - Funny you bring up the therapist comparison. I've always thought Inara views herself as that. This happens in a different time where sexuality isn't so vilified. Maybe using sex to comfort or help someone is no different than a therapist speaking kindly to their client. At least, maybe this is how Inara feels.

That is exactly how I see it. Glad we can agree on that. :)

Quote:

I think this de-personalizing of sex in Inara's mind is a bit of a smokescreen that she needs because of her mysterious past, which is in the fic I'm working on. (I'm sooooo shameless)

Oh, you know, I'll never complain you mentioning your writing. *g* After all, it means that you ARE writing, which is wonderful!

I don't know about smokescreen. Mostly because I don't know about her mysterious past. My personal favorite theory is that it has very little to do with the nature of her job. Oh well. :)

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Friday, August 25, 2006 8:57 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Then she's that close to him, straight out of another man's bed, acting like all is well. So he pushes her away, to rattle her. Bring things back to the point.

I totally see your point. Doesn't he say the 'whore' thing when they're physically close too? She's actually touching Mal? *sexual tension wee!* Makes sense he'd say something to get her away - and she immediately walks away from him, right? I really need to watch again...

Quote:
I don't know about smokescreen. Mostly because I don't know about her mysterious past. My personal favorite theory is that it has very little to do with the nature of her job. Oh well. :)

I agree with that... although I have the two intertwined, since her job is really her life. OK - I can't discuss this anymore until after I post my fic! I'll give away my plot!

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 9:00 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Maybe not to someone like Jayne, who sees no trouble with the entire institution.

I guess I'm looking at it from a Jayne point of view. I have no problem with the institution. If a gal or guy chooses freely to earn their living having sex (or using sex in combination with other skills), it's no business of mine.

I can acknowledge that there is a difference of degree. However, there is a difference between a Triple Crown winner and a mustang, but they're both horses. Admittedly, not the best analogy. Not suggesting women beasts of burden.

Obviously, Inara belives there is a difference, as does most everyone else in the 'Verse. I guess I'm still looking at it in an "earth that was", literal kinda' way.

I think Mal's view of her profession is in a similar vein. I don't believe he's denigrating prostitutes. Instead he's denigrating society and Companions in general and Inara specifically for not acknowledging that in a very simple and artless way (perhaps callow, as well), there is no distinction.

Mal doesn't seem like a man given to parsing words or that particularly sophisticated (say, like the good doctor). In his eyes (IMHO), Inara and all companions are really just well educated, well paid, highly skilled, officially sanctioned, pretentious prostitutes. No better than the "whores" in HOG. In fact, worse, because at least the HOG girls/guys (again, my opinion of his POV) are honest about it.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 9:14 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by FellowTraveler:

I guess I'm looking at it from a Jayne point of view. I have no problem with the institution. If a gal or guy chooses freely to earn their living having sex (or using sex in combination with other skills), it's no business of mine.

Interestingly enough, when Jayne says "funny whoring stories", Inara is not bothered. She good-naturedly rebukes his nosy prying, but not the word. I think she's aware of the difference in attitude with which Jayne uses the word.

Quote:

Mal doesn't seem like a man given to parsing words or that particularly sophisticated (say, like the good doctor). In his eyes (IMHO), Inara and all companions are really just well educated, well paid, highly skilled, officially sanctioned, pretentious prostitutes. No better than the "whores" in HOG. In fact, worse, because at least the HOG girls/guys (again, my opinion of his POV) are honest about it.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. I feel like I've argued the same thing over and over for a while, and a lot of it comes down to individual perception.

I'm not out to convince anyone. Sharing opinions is nice, but let's just agree to disagree about this. :)

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Friday, August 25, 2006 9:28 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by FellowTraveler:
I can acknowledge that there is a difference of degree. However, there is a difference between a Triple Crown winner and a mustang, but they're both horses. Admittedly, not the best analogy. Not suggesting women beasts of burden.

Clearer analogy would be a Triple Crown winner and any other racing Thoroughbred. Same thing, but

Although the analogy falls apart because you can't train any TB to be a triple crown winner. They're born, not made. (Admittedly training comes into the equation, but the athleticism, speed, heart, etc need to be there from the beginning.)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

I think this de-personalizing of sex in Inara's mind is a bit of a smokescreen that she needs because of her mysterious past,

Hey M4P,

I think the de-personalizing of sex is just a need for the job. How can you have sex with so many different people, and for money, if it means something?

IMHO, the 'verse's view of sex/companions/whores is not exactly progress. It gives women (are there male companions, or only boy whores...who from the indications in HOG were for men, not women) who choose to sell sex more control than history has allowed, but it's still not exactly healthy. The Guild is, evolutionarily, a giant corporate pimp. Client choice has been given to the women and there is less social stigma, but it's still sex for money. I, personally think true progress is when women won't need to use sex for money or power.

on another note: all I can hear in my head right now is Julia Robert's in Pretty Woman with her frightened, "I say who, I say when, I say WHO." (Interesting sidenote: that character approaches more of the 'companion'definition....)

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, August 25, 2006 9:56 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I think this de-personalizing of sex in Inara's mind is a bit of a smokescreen that she needs because of her mysterious past,

I think the de-personalizing of sex is just a need for the job. How can you have sex with so many different people, and for money, if it means something?

This is excellent! It's something I've been thinking about (that fic again) but I haven't worked it out completely...

I have this theory in the back of my head that Inara is somewhat different than other Companions. They are able to separate themselves from the job. But Inara, deep inside, doesn't quite believe this thing that she's outwardly convinced herself of is true - that sex is just sex. Hence her blushing at Ath's comment (and he says "Few in your line of work do that..."), and also - she falls apart over Mal and Nandi.

Honestly, at this point I can't separate what's there in the series from what I've created for my fic, so take the following with a grain of salt...

I think Inara may have been driven to become a Companion by mysterious events, as in her childhood. And part of her being on Serenity is that her profession doesn't actually fit her. Her training that sex is something impersonal is eating at her from the inside, because it really isn't enough for her.

Must stop and think more...

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 10:14 AM

OHIOBROWNCOAT

I am not sure Mal is anti-companion. He's anti-alliance. He calls her a whore (chronologically) in OOG when they first meet only after she said she supportted the Alliance. He calls her a W in the pilot not to upset her but book. There's more but I hope I started a new line of thought.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 12:51 PM

GOLDY

Jumping into this very long, yet highly interesting thread. I have some thoughts below, which may or may not be coherent. *g*

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
The Guild is, evolutionarily, a giant corporate pimp. Client choice has been given to the women and there is less social stigma, but it's still sex for money. I, personally think true progress is when women won't need to use sex for money or power.

I would disagree with that. Firefly has never been about presenting a Utopian society (arguably, like Star Trek was), but about reflecting true humanity. I simply do not believe that we will ever reach a time period where there will be no such thing as a sex trade. That's like envisioning the world without war or famine or a rich/poor dichotomy. All things that Firefly has touched upon in some way.

In that sense, then, the Guild *is* a symbol of progress, because it gives a measure of power and security to those that do choose sex as a living. Instead of being punished for being a "whore," Companions can be seen as not only vital members of society, but as prestigeous women, well-schooled and educated. One of my favourite details is the medical appointment that Inara has in Ariel. That's huge, because it shows respect not only for Inara, but for her clients as well. What's not progressive about that?

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
I think the de-personalizing of sex is just a need for the job. How can you have sex with so many different people, and for money, if it means something?

Well, we don't know for certain, but I would argue that sex *does* mean something under Companion tradition. There's certainly many spiritual aspects of it - we've even seen Inara refer to the tea and the music as a sort of "ritual." Maybe by our standards today, we have to equate de-personalizing sex with that trade, but I wouldn't say that's so in Inara's time. Inara *does* see sex as something sacred (or, at least, spiritual), something that has healing powers. Why must sex be seen as something that's dirty? I think that's the whole point of Companioning tradition - to take the "dirty" *out* of paying for sex.

Which brings us back the Mal question, and really what this thread is about. No, I don't think Mal is "anti-Companion," I think he comes across that way in order to justify to himself some sort of moral highground when he uses that word against Inara. If he can make her work seem dirty, if he can make it seem like something to be ashamed of, then he doesn't have to feel guilty about her wanting to give up something she obviously feels very tied to.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 1:35 PM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by Goldy:
Why must sex be seen as something that's dirty? I think that's the whole point of Companioning tradition - to take the "dirty" *out* of paying for sex.

Believing that sex shouldn't be paid for and that it's "dirty" are two totally different things. I don't believe sex is dirty and yet I don't think it should be paid for. Paying for sex takes the whole "spiritual" aspect away from it. It no longer becomes about two people being as close as they possibly could be, but rather about pleasure alone. The rituals, etc are to approximate the closeness, comfort etc that two people in love find in sex. (The pleasure part, well that's there regardless, if it's done right.

) Sex that is paid for is artificial...and therefore not as good, nor should it ever be considered as good as

And what about male companions (comp-Man-ions?)? If this really is progress, there should be companions for everyone. The only progress we see in the 'Verse is a destigmatization paying for sex. I just can't think that's a good thing (although it is an interesting concept).

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, August 25, 2006 3:09 PM

GOLDY

Quote:
Sex that is paid for is artificial...and therefore not as good, nor should it ever be considered as good as

Heh. I think that's just going to have to be one of those things that's completely subjective depending on the way you're looking at it. What I was trying to get at, I think, is that the Companion culture doesn't see their trade as something that's shaming. Love aside, what's wrong with paying someone who is intelligent and cultured to spend a night with you?

Quote:
And what about male companions (comp-Man-ions?)?

Weeeeeellll. That can really only be speculation, since we just don't know one way or another. But I assume there are male Companions. Probably far fewer male than female Companions, since women have historically played the "whore" stereotype. We just really haven't met any other Companions besides Inara.

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Friday, September 8, 2006 10:20 AM

WALKERHOUND

let's say i get off work and i want a little snack.

A. i could stop by Wal-Mart and pick up the no name brand Bigbox-O-chock ( price $4.99+tax)

B. i could go to lady frufru godivas boutique chocleters to the stars and pick up a (insert French word)chocolate (insert German word) liquor (inset Swiss word) truffle, in a cedar box with satin bow and a little hand calligraped card with the life history of the little old Swiss dude that made the thing (price my weeks pay check +tax)

now ether way i've got my self some chocolate the question is whether there is any deference between the two? and the answer is yes and at the same time no. starting with price and working your way up to prowcived value(this i think is were the deference between good/skilled whore and registered companion really kikes in) there are clearly many many deference’s in the two products, but at the end of the day it's plant fats sugar and coco.

(ya i know the point's been made but i was really proud of the example

)

Quote:
Believing that sex shouldn't be paid for and that it's "dirty" are two totally different things

Quote:
that the Companion culture doesn't see their trade as something that's shaming. Love aside, what's wrong with paying someone who is intelligent and cultured to spend a night with you?

exactly, and that's the cruces of the argument. you don't have to believe sex is dirty to believe that it is only appropriate in vary nearly defined instances (i.e when you have found your "other" your soul mate ect ect.). now for somebody to be a companion or for that matter a whore by choice (as apposed to by necessity, every body seams to be talking about "making the choice" to be a companion or a whore. what about all those caught by circumstances especially among the "whore's"?) then you have to have a...loser definition of when it is "appropriate" to engage in the sex act. in other words off course the companion culture (in other words the guild) would teach that having sex with some one for other than pure love is not shaming, but if your coming form a culture that doesn’t necessarily believe that then the fact that it is taught as such by the guild is not going to be a especially compelling argument (agine it would be hard for them to carry on there avowed calling with a deferent philosophies

). I kind of think this is more ware Mal is coming from, he doesn’t approve of sex for higher as such (for a number of reasons, but well…latter for that) but he dose recognize that when times are hard and you have lost every thing else you have (and boy dose he understand what that's like) then you may have nothing left to sell but your body. The thing, or one of them at lest is that Inra doesn’t have to be a companion (whore) to survive she has other options where as say the HOG girls probably don’t have a lot of alternative’s income wise. Well in his mind anyway.

sorry for the length on, especially as i need to cut it off and get to work now (i'll be back latter with the rest....try to contain your excitement

cause more poorly spelled rambling is coming soon)

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:38 AM

BROWNCOATJIM

As I have said in some other posts, Joss wrote this show for bright people, so they could draw their own conclusions.

By modern society's standards, the show is surely pro-feminist, scattered with very powerful female characters (which is just so damn well done in War Stories when kaylee locks up, she is never demeaned by her actions, she just--as a person--doesn't have combat in her, a point driven home by the fact that a 16 year old girl turns out to be the friggin' Terminator), but remember, as Americans, we are only a couple of hundred years, or less even, out of the frontier world. Speaking as a damn Yankee (becuase I know that in some Southern States the time frame is shorter--God Bless the Sovereign Nation of Texas, I have always felt they just rent some land here, and live as they damn well choose!), we are only a hundred or so years away from having walked around with guns on our hips like hats on our heads.

There was no room for the weak woman in the frontier world, never mind what you saw in the movies. Darwin nailed it, folks--the strong survived. And so it is that the women in Firefly were strong like our own great-great grandmothers had to be. They had to work, fight, and survive just like the men, and carry a narl inside of them for nine months.

Women as weak and defenseless is a modern entertainment notion, and I love to see a woman in the movies or TV grow a big ol' pair and keep her clothes on and kick some ass for herself ( I will never forget Aliens--"get away from her, you bitch!).

But why was Mal so anti-Companion? I don't think Mal really gave a rat's ass one way or another regarding being a Companion or not, it was just something for him to needle Inara about and he felt just as jealous as all hell about it with her. He was anti-Inara-being-a-Companion is all, I think.

WE'RE GONNA CRASH? I DON'T WANNA CRASH!

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:27 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA

Because he loves her and wants to pull at her pigtails.

Joss said it, not me.

If I'm a bitch, then life just got interesting

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Friday, September 29, 2006 11:10 AM

PRIVATEDECLAN

I was thinkin it was cause he just didnt want inara to be a companion

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 10:57 PM

BROWNCOATSAWAY

I don't think he is anti-companion i just think he has his own issues on getting close to anybody and having a companion. he can't have inara. "other than myself nobody's touched my plow for a long time"

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 9:00 PM

USMCHELLRAISER

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It's hard to be sure. We haven't seen Mal meet other Companions - WE haven't met other Companions.

We also haven't seen Mal have an honest and earnest discussion about his opinions with anyone neutral.

What we know is:
1) Mal has no problem with prostitution in general, or he would be chewing out Jayne on a regular basis and would have said something to Nandi.

2) Mal states that he dislikes the "dishonesty" of pretending affection for money. ***(1)***

However, if he wasn't biased, a business-savvy mind like his should be able to appreciate a women doing what the hell ever she wants and making good money with it. Companioning doesn't harm anyone. Unlike thieving. Or killing. And I think Mal knows that. *** (2) ***

So, personally, I think Mal doesn't actually have a problem with Companions, at all. They are educated professionals, and while they are a part of the society he hates, so was Warrick Harrow, and Mal had no problem with him. Conversely, he did keep pushing down Simon for simply having been rich, even though he was a trauma surgeon, a highly respectable job that even now benefits Mal immensely. It's the being rich that Mal detests in general. *** (3) ***

Inara's job is a convenient target for Mal's sarcasm (that contradiction as he sees it, of a "whore" being respected by one name when they aren't by another) and it becomes a conveninient way to lash out at Inara when they grow closer, because... that's when her job and the connected sexual and status issues start becoming a problem.

1) That sounds like a comment any man who has been hurt or lied to by a woman and was honest enough to menton it would say. I think many people have mentioned that Mal has intimacy issues due to his desire to not be hurt. If you were afraid of loving a woman because you know you you are truly capable of being hurt, you would really hate any woman feigning affection- it owuld remind you too much of how you were lied to. I know LOTS of guys who have been cheated on, betrayed, lied to, had sex with prostitutes, random women, had their wives/girlfriends cheat on them with MULTIPLE men, etc...ahhh, being in the Military...quite the well-rounded experience. We had about a 90% divorce rate when the unit came home after Fallujah. This last time out to Iraq, I wrote all of my platoon-mates names and their girlfriends/wives down on a list with a buddy of mine, and by the end of the deployment, their were only five of the original twenty-seven couples still together.

2) Anyone who doesn't think prostitution doesn't hurt anyone has never been a prostitute, or like in my case, worked with them. Name two happy prostitutes that you have personally met and spent time with. Anyone?

I'm not going to attach a moral connection to the practice of prostitution, but I do thinkn it's an interesting coincidence.

Heck, look at how much trouble Inara's work causes in the show-

"Serenity"- the line by her first client at the end of their time together. Bitter, right? Stupid man for falling for a beautiful woman that acted like she cared about him. Honestly, we men are far too gullible about women. His best course of action would have been to treat her as a "fun object" and appreciated the fake consideration, or to have a complete emotional disconnect between physical intimacy and emotion, then he wouldn't have been bitter about their seperation, right? But, if men had that kind of seperation of intimacy and emotions, how would any of us ever learn to feel remorse about cheating? Or breaking up with a girl because you found someone prettier to lust after? Most of the guys I hang out with that make use of prostitutes have a hard time staying faithful to their girlfriends, or of becoming emotionally connected to women at all. I know that a lot of women see their power over men sexually as a form of liberation and empowerment, but I fear for our society if we reach a point where men are encouraged to forget their natural inclination to protect and shepherd women. Because after all, men are physically capable of taking what they want, they just don't because out there, somewhere, are other men who would punish or kill them for doing it. In archaic times, it was the immediate males in the family fo the woman abused, now 'society' has come together to declare that a woman needs and deserves respect- part of what I like about our culture over some others I have encountered. Funny thing, but everyone screams about how arab women are treated, but how many repeat sex-offenders or rapists are their in Iraq? None, if they get caught. Arabs are more protective of their women physically than we are for the most part. Our women are considered idealistically to be 'equal' and to not need our protection, so they receive less of it from men in our culture sometimes.

"Shindig"- Atherton Wingy-dingy's attitude about Inara's worth as a person isn't so much a problem (he can like/dislike, respect/not respect whom he wants) to me as his desire and ability to think of women as property- even if he had 'purchased' his time with Inara. Some prostitutes allow physical abuse as long as they are not hit in the face, but I don't really care what the woman allows, or even what some woman might have done to the man, wanting to physically hurt women is against what men are about at a genetic/instinctive level in my opinion, and anyone who can do it casually is sick and worthless to society to me. And I am certainly not averse to commiting violence on almost anyone, if I think it is necessary.

"Shindig"- Mal's emotional possesiveness of Inara because he cares about her/desires her, and his actions against Mr. Wingnut. Although Inara did allow the interruption, which was a bad slip on her part. You usually get a refund if your prostitute/companion spends too much time away from you, much less with another guy. Singapore, Hong Kong, anyplace I have been where they have them....

"Shindig"- Inara then helps Mal to be able to defend himself and/or kill the man who hired her (the sword-fighting tips).

"Shindig"- Distracting Atherton in the duel had to be a social faux pas.

Recap: Shindig-
Companion agrees to be companion to client.

Companion doesn't politely reject offer by another man to dance, and it would be unseemly of her escort to act possesive of his most likely extremely expensive arm-candy.

Client interrupts dance, acts like a lout, but is not corrected by his companion before he gets slugged by an obvious suitor. This acording to local civilized custom is acceptable, but a duel is the result that 'Honor' demands. The suitor, (Mal) is forced to accept, because this is the legal consequence of his asault on Mr. Wing-whacker.

Companion then conspires against her client without his knowledge or permission, and without even a discount that we know of, so that the suitor can defend himself or kill the client in the legal action consequence of the suitor's actions. Wow (again, no discount, or even a two-for-one coupon mentioned).

Companion provides fatal distraction during the legal action (the duel), which results in the client being beaten, stabbed twice while down and after losing (or was it three times?), and then humiliated in public. Then, the client is blacklisted from future services of companion/any companions. No refund mentioned, no Better Business Bureau in the future, nor civil-action personal suit.

Ahh- we all get the idea (all two of you who actually read this far.)

Mind you, this is all by the 4th episode.

3) Mal is put off by Simon at first meeting, but Simon is making no efort to hide his aloof disdain of the ship, the crew, and their status, Mal rakes Shepherd Book several times. Simon interrupts Mal to ask stupid questions ("What medical supplies?", etc.), then disobeys him by sneaking around in the cargo bay after being forbidden to, then brings the Alliance down on Mal's crew, which is his family, which results in poor kaylee getting shot(!). Then, without telling them why, Simon uses Kaylee's life as a leverage tool to force the crew to become actual fugitives of the law instad of simply criminals working under the law's radar. Also, a federal agent now needs disposing, and the crew has to resort to kidnapping, intimidation, and possibly torture. Heck, Americans give Bush and the government a hard time about torture all the time...and that was just their first meeting(!) I have never thought for one second that Mal had mistreated Simon. If any guy on this forum was in the 'Verse and was part of the crew of Serenity when Kaylee was shot, Simon cooly bartering with her life, and talking casually about "what an abdominal wound does" to someone when she was dying on the deck, he would have skinned Simon right after making sure Kaylee was okay. (I understand where Simon was coming from, but he could have expressed it differently, I think. He wasn't talking like someone doing something he regretted, he was coming off likeKaylee was just an object, and his need was more important than her consideration).

Why is Mal anti-companion? I don't think he is, I think that he respects them as much as he perceives them respecting themselves. I think Mal has a serious emotional connection between the idea of physical intimacy and emotional intimacy, feels a need to protect women, and can't adjust mentally to the idea of women acting like they don't need it. Especially given his rural roots, and the reality he lives in. Also, he is attracted to Inara the moment he first meets her (as many real-life people are), and keeps his guard up as he knows he could never be involved with a woman who sleeps with other men for money.

Anyone who actually read all of this, thanks for your time, and sorry I was so long winded(!) this show/movie/world and it's characters inspires a lot of thinking for me, and has driven me to think about getting back into writing again. Also, I have no one to talk to about it all, so you all are it.

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 9:15 PM

USMCHELLRAISER

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by Whitefall:
Now I know I'm biased cause I'm something of a feminist my self, but then again, so's Joss, so that's my theory.

Mal believes (as evidenced by his acceptance of Kaylee in OoG, his treatmeant of Saffron before she was YoSafBridge, etc) that women are the equal of men

But what I find a little short-sighted in Mal's suppossed "feminism" that he refuses to aknowledge that this is a mutually agreed-upon illusion. Everyone, as he says, knows it - and is getting along with it. The client, as well. No one is actually being lied to. It's a clear and obvious service.

And always, always, always, it's just another way of oppression for Mal to stand there and basically dictate to Inara how she should live her live in order to be "respectable" to him. He doesn't accept her personal choices, her perception of her job. It's what he thinks she should do that counts to him.

Which is not exactly feminist.

But, of course, that's probably just an aspect of Mal attacking her job for standing between them, rather than out of principle.

I honestly have never once thought of Mal as being a feminist. He simply treats people with respect.

If Mal was a true feminist, he would distrust women at least as much as he does men, and hold them as accountable.

He favors River more than anyone in his situation who cared about his crew's safety should, he doesn't treat Zoe as an "Equal" so much as a trusted suborinate whose opinion is respected (Zoe's opinion or contrary idea of what course of action they should take NEVER overrides Mal's desire once in the series.

She's his second-in-command, period.

Kaylee and Inara don't get even half a vote in what goes on, and Mal lets YoSafBridge put him and his crew in jeopardy twice due to his underestimation of her. Thank goodness she failed to kill them the first time, and the second time tampered with their steering and not their life support, huh?

Maybe I don't quite know what a feminist is: I'll go look it up.

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 9:39 PM

USMCHELLRAISER

Question(s):
1) Where is it proven that Inara even chose her profession? Maybe her parents threw her into the academy like River got sent to one. Do prostitutes really choose their profession? Do people who pump gas? I think many people work jobs that if you asked them if why they chose it, they would explain at length exactly how they didn't.

2) Why do we think that Inara doesn't feel any shame about her work? Find someone who hates their job (like some Marines, Accountants, Secretaries, etc...), then insult their profession and watch a dog-poo shoveler defend his proud and helpful occupational tradition. Maybe Inara simply validates it because it's what she does for a living. I know a couple of real "pros" that do this. they complain about their work, wouldn't want their daughter doing it, but they use their life circumstances to validate it, and their "right to provide" for themsleves to defend it. If you ask a successful doctor if he would change his profession if he could go back in time, would the answer be different if you asked Inara what she would do for a living if it could be anything?

3) Why is it that when Inara says Companions are different from W's because they 'choose' their clients people think that that statement means anything? Hookers in Hawaii charge between $160-$300 depending on the client, and can say 'no' to any John. That doesn't mean they know how to sword fight or perform a chinese tea ceremony.

4) What makes the difference between a companion's job and a W's? I'll bet there are some backwater types who went to the Heart of Gold for conversation, interaction, a shoulder to cry on, just to feel someone lying next to them. IMO there is no difference between a Companion and a "W", just a difference in their clients. Companions and W's do the same thing- what their client wants. i'll bet that a lot of Core-Worlders would have fallen HARD for a rim-world "Yolanda"(YoSafBridge's character) in a New York minute, fancy talk be DAMNED, if they could find one. Education is not the primary function of either Comps or W's. Their willingness to perform sex acts is. I doubt so much has changed in the future that anyone with the money to afford a RegCompanion couldn't find an urbane or attractive woman to ride his arm, but a client gets the nod when he walks in with a RegCompanion because the other guys there know that they are seeing a woman they KNOW will put out, and do it well, with generations of training knowledge and a genuine dedication to pleasing that a lot of woman don't have for whatever reason. Also, since RegComps aren't cheap, it's a status thing like when rich people buy expensive cars and their rich friends oogle them. They can all afford whatever they want, but for some reason an expensive performance plaything is always 'ooh' or 'aah' worthy to them. My fiancee's escalade and my Suzuki are both cars and do the same thing. And some people prefer trucks. It only matters to the client, the ride's individual differences mean a difference in price, not purpose.

5) If sex isn't the main point of a companion's work, then why are there no ugly or overweight ones? Seriously.

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Sunday, October 22, 2006 5:23 AM

DONCOAT

Geez, Hellraiser, when are you gonna start telling us what you really think? And quit being so... terse?

Good observations, though I confess I didn't read every line. And I can't really answer your challenge, as I haven't known or utilized any prostitutes (as far as I know), nor even any men who have done. Sheltered life, I guess.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Sunday, October 22, 2006 6:12 AM

AGENTROUKA

Dude. I'd like to discuss this more thoroughly with you, but you don't really seem to be looking for a sharing of ideas. Just stating your opinion in... overwhelmingly great detail.

Quote:
Originally posted by USMCHellraiser:
Question(s):
1) Where is it proven that Inara even chose her profession? Maybe her parents threw her into the academy like River got sent to one. Do prostitutes really choose their profession? Do people who pump gas? I think many people work jobs that if you asked them if why they chose it, they would explain at length exactly how they didn't.

It's speculation, either way. But Inara always speaks of the Guild with a positive glint in her eyes, a half-smile, respect. (Except for the one wave she exchanges with Nandi.) She's an intelligent woman. Why would she do that if she had reason to feel oppressed?

For what it's worth, in the Firefly RPG book, I think, there was a bit stating that Companions don't learn the actual Companion techniques - if they want to - until after they've graduated the regular, general education training that so emphasizes control (and, apparently, Buddhism?) which implies an entirely voluntary wish to become a Companion.

Quote:
2) Why do we think that Inara doesn't feel any shame about her work? Find someone who hates their job (like some Marines, Accountants, Secretaries, etc...), then insult their profession and watch a dog-poo shoveler defend his proud and helpful occupational tradition. Maybe Inara simply validates it because it's what she does for a living. I know a couple of real "pros" that do this. they complain about their work, wouldn't want their daughter doing it, but they use their life circumstances to validate it, and their "right to provide" for themsleves to defend it. If you ask a successful doctor if he would change his profession if he could go back in time, would the answer be different if you asked Inara what she would do for a living if it could be anything?

And you point is.. what?

Many people don't love their jobs, but they're not ashamed of them, either. You can, if you're so inclined, presume that it's all a lie to cover up her true feelings. But that doesn't change that her behavior generally indications a lack of shame. Even a lack of dislike.

Inara, on the show, strongly identifies with her job. She values its traditions and the Guild Laws and is relaxed enough to joke about the sillier aspects.

Shame is something else.

Quote:
3) Why is it that when Inara says Companions are different from W's because they 'choose' their clients people think that that statement means anything? Hookers in Hawaii charge between $160-$300 depending on the client, and can say 'no' to any John. That doesn't mean they know how to sword fight or perform a chinese tea ceremony.

Does she say that they are different because of this one fact only? I don't think she does. She says that Companions choose their own clients. She says that Companions aren't whores. Seperate statements. Correlation, sure, but only facets of a whole.

Quote:
4) What makes the difference between a companion's job and a W's? I'll bet there are some backwater types who went to the Heart of Gold for conversation, interaction, a shoulder to cry on, just to feel someone lying next to them. IMO there is no difference between a Companion and a "W", just a difference in their clients.

It's your prerogative to have an opinion.

Quote:
5) If sex isn't the main point of a companion's work, then why are there no ugly or overweight ones? Seriously.

How do you know there aren't?

We have seen: Inara. Sheydra. Nandi. A small passel of pretty girls that Inara declared unfit to be Companions in the cut scene of the movie. Yes, they were all physically attractive. But who says that all Companions are ideal lookers? Maybe there are chubby ones. Maybe there are those who have plain faces. How can you know there are not?

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Sunday, October 22, 2006 4:37 PM

USMCHELLRAISER

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Geez, Hellraiser, when are you gonna start telling us what you really think? And quit being so... terse?

Good observations, though I confess I didn't read every line. And I can't really answer your challenge, as I haven't known or utilized any prostitutes (as far as I know), nor even any men who have done. Sheltered life, I guess.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

Well, I hope that my being direct isn't mistaken for anything but my desire to convey my thoughts here

i like the directness of my relationship with Marines, and ahve issues with the rues of subterfuge and conspiracy I sometimes see in the 'Civilized' world.

Please note though: if I ever ask a question, I realy mean it as a question, regardless of how blunt I ask it- I am happy to have found this family and home (the Browncoat community), and have no issues with anyone here's personal opinions/viewpoint: if it parallels mine or not.

also, for the record, I have never paid for sex in an open and direct businessy way, I just used to work with and socialize with them a lot. And, I'm in the Marine Corps Infantry.

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Wednesday, December 27, 2006 1:50 PM

ASARIAN

Lemme add some complexity to an already complex position. :)

For starters, I think Mal, though he's not too fond Alliance institutions in general, overall has no real problem with Companions. But he has an issue with Inara being one. He may have feelings for Inara, and obviously he does, but I think the friction here is primarily a matter of loyalties colliding. At least that's the aspect I wish to highlight here. Allow me to explain.

Mal loves his freedom; never to be under the heel of anyone ever again. Inara, with a twist, has chosen an opposite life: in Mal's eyes, she chooses slavery:

Mal: "You think following the rules will buy you a nice life, even if the rules make you a slave!"

I say 'with a twist', because, after a fashion, Inara also has chosen Mal's way of life. There's the rub:

Inara: "The Alliance has no quarrel with me. I supported unification."
Mal: "Did ya? Well, I don't suppose you're the only whore who did."

To Mal's way of thinking, Inara saying to (and in) his face that she supported unification, is directly aimed at him. Mal has a tendency of taking things personally ("You did it to me, Jayne, to me!"). I don't mean to say he believes Inara is paying him a personal insult; rather, internally, he does the math about a life-choice so different from his own, and then concludes -- instead of doing the mature thing of just accepting her different path -- that it's a rejection of his lifestyle somehow. He responds with a seemingly spiteful put-down: "Well, I don't suppose you're the only whore who did." Seemingly, because it's just his way of dealing (or rather not dealing) with having a good friend be on such opposite side of the fence: denial and ridicule.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, December 27, 2006 2:32 PM

FROMTHEDARK

i recon in my far fetch imagination that something in his past involved a companion and the guild. maybe he fell inlove with a companion only to have her ripped away from him or something along hose lines. see what an imagination can do to you

"Kaylee grab that kid who's dirt napping with baby jesus, we need a hood ornament"

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Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:27 PM

BAGHEERA

Quote:

To Mal's way of thinking, Inara saying to (and in) his face that she supported unification, is directly aimed at him.

There's no doubt in my mind that it was directly aimed at him. Inara's well versed in tact, and she deliberately stated something she knew a browncoat would find offensive... if not to rub him the wrong way, why ?

She knew what she was doing. Mal knew what she was doing. He returned in kind.

Quote:

Mal has a tendency of taking things personally ("You did it to me, Jayne, to me!").

Don't mistake "taking things personally" for "taking responsibility for me and mine".

If he 'took things personally' he would have dealt with things differently in his dealings with Badger and at Whitefall... but "its business, not personal" and he shows he can let the water shed off his skin.

Quote:
something about Mal having his heart broken by a Companion

I think thats overly romantic and not likely. Even for someone as well travelled as him, he likely hasnt run in with many companions in the environs he finds himself most comfortable. (granted, we dont really know much about what type of person he was before the war, only that it shattered him and made him a different man).

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