The Battle of Serenity Valley by ManiacNumberOne

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

The Battle of Serenity Valley

POSTED BY: MANIACNUMBERONE
UPDATED: Sunday, February 1, 2004 11:11
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Thursday, October 23, 2003 7:06 AM

It irks me to think about the Browncoats losing the battle for Serenity Valley. I think and think, and the more I do, the more I realize that they shouldn't have lost that battle. They were winning!
(during the pilot) Mal had taken out a bad-ass ship with the big, mounted, enemy gun and gone back to cover. He gets the news from Zoe that their forces aren't coming in as planned and instead they are telling the troops to lay down arms. Why I ask? Too hot? I don't believe it. So there were some ships landing with more troops, that's not a big deal. Why didn't the Angels come in? Does anyone think that they may have been sold out by their own side.

-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
-------------------------------------------

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Thursday, October 23, 2003 7:32 AM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Does anyone think that they may have been sold out by their own side.

That's really interesting to think about. Zoe relays the message that command thinks it's too hot. What kind of information would they have that Mal and Zoe didn't have in the trenches?

After that, it cuts to shots of craft landing. Do you think those are the Angels, or more troop transports or are those the dignitaries, come to sign the treaty? I always thought they were the Angels--the first wave of surrender from the Browncoats, since we heard, or were meant to assume that they were on their way to the battle.

And to what extent do you suppose the war kept up after that? In Bushwhacked, Commander Harken says, "Independents suffered a pretty crushing defeat there. Some say that after Serenity the brown coats were through. That the
war ended in that valley." To me, that's always indicated that they treaty wasn't signed on Hera at Serenity Valley, but that the Browncoat higher ups quit trying and lower-echelon heroes like Mal and Zoe couldn't keep it up.

You come up with the best topics, Maniac.

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Thursday, October 23, 2003 7:56 AM

ZAPHODB

This is a scene from the original un-aired Serenity pilot. It doesn't clear up any questions, but it does offer a bit more information on the battle.

SIMON
Serenity.

Up comes the dictionary definition, and below that, SERENITY, BATTLE OF. He touches it and a paragraph forms with photos next to it.

SIMON (cont'd)
Read.

As the book reads, in a soft female voice, the images fill the page. Planets, banners, then images of battle and carnage, the aftermath of which we saw in the flashback.

ENCYCLOPEDIA
In the war to unite the planets, The
Battle Of Serenity was among the most
devastating and decisive. Located on
Hera, the valley was considered a key
position by both sides, and was
bitterly fought over.
The Independent Faction, with sixteen
brigades and twenty air-tank squads,
held the valley against Alliance
forces for almost two months, until
superior numbers and a brilliant deep-
flank strategy by General Richard
Wil --

ZOE
What does it say under 'bloodbath'?

Simon turns off the book, seeing Zoe in his doorway.

SIMON
I'm was just trying to --

ZOE
We're not in there. The book, I
mean. We're not generals or
diplomats, we didn't turn the tide of
glorious history or whatever that
thing is supposed to spew.

SIMON
You know what they say: History is
programmed by the winners.

ZOE
Nearly half a million people lay dead
on that field at day's end, about a
third of them 'winners'. Can you
imagine the smell? Can you imagine
piling up the bodies of soldiers --
of friends -- to build a wall 'cause
you got no cover? Blood just kept
pouring out of them, you'd slip in it
half the time, find out bloodbath is
not just a figure of speech.

SIMON
Mal was there with you.

She enters, sits across from him.

ZOE
He was my sergeant. In command of
thirty-odd grunts -- five days in,
there were so many officers dead he
commanded two thousand. Kept us
together, kept us fighting, kept us
sane. By the time the fighting was
over he had maybe four hundred still
intact.

SIMON
That's a hell of a --

ZOE
I said the fighting was over. But
you see they left us there. Wounded,
and sick, and near to mad as can
still walk and talk. Both sides left
us there while they 'negotiated the
peace'. For a week. And we just kept
dying. When they finally sent in
Medships, he had about a hundred and
fifty left, and of our original
platoon, just me.

She stands.

ZOE (cont'd)
Mercy, forgiveness, trust... Those
are things he left back there. What
he has now is the ship, the ship
and us on it. You get Kaylee through
this and I think he'll do right by
you. He won't kill unless he's got
no other option.

SIMON
What if he tells you to kill me?

ZOE
I kill you.

SIMON
(grim smile)
Just getting the lay of the land.

She starts to go.

SIMON (cont'd)
If that battle was so horrible, why'd
he name the ship after it?

She considers the question.

ZOE
Once you've been in Serenity, you
never leave. You just learn to live
there.

I think is scene is also one of the deleted ones that are going to be on the DVD set.

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Thursday, October 23, 2003 8:09 AM

STILLSHINY

oh my freaking WOW, was never aware of this. Thanks for sharing. Put a lot of stuff in perspective. Gorram it I want my DVD's now!!!!

You think I look good now, wait till you see me in my new "Browncoat T-shirt"

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Thursday, October 23, 2003 8:37 AM

ZAPHODB

Your welcome. A clip of the scene is (was) up at the official site. Actually you can check it out here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/firefly/spoilers.htm
It's under History Lesson.

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Thursday, October 23, 2003 9:00 AM

BARNEYT

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
It irks me to think about the Browncoats losing the battle for Serenity Valley. I think and think, and the more I do, the more I realize that they shouldn't have lost that battle. They were winning!
(during the pilot) Mal had taken out a bad-ass ship with the big, mounted, enemy gun and gone back to cover. He gets the news from Zoe that their forces aren't coming in as planned and instead they are telling the troops to lay down arms. Why I ask? Too hot? I don't believe it. So there were some ships landing with more troops, that's not a big deal. Why didn't the Angels come in? Does anyone think that they may have been sold out by their own side.

It would be a nice idea... but as Mal said, they were out-numbered and out-gunned. Mal's platoon may have been scoring some wins but the planet was being overwhelmed by Alliance ships. It was far more than just a few more troops being landed - those were gunships if I remember correctly, firing down onto the planet.

That deleted scene from the pilot sure adds more reasons for Mal's loss of faith after the war. I can see why it was taken out of the pilot (it explains a bit too much all at once), but it's a good scene.

---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

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Thursday, October 23, 2003 10:06 AM

SENZO

Quote:
ENCYCLOPEDIA
In the war to unite the planets, The
Battle Of Serenity was among the most
devastating and decisive. Located on
Hera, the valley was considered a key
position by both sides, and was
bitterly fought over.
The Independent Faction, with sixteen
brigades and twenty air-tank squads,
held the valley against Alliance
forces for almost two months, until
superior numbers and a brilliant deep-
flank strategy by General Richard
Wil --

Richard Wil...kins???

This is why I love being a fan of Joss' work. Always little gems of coolness just for us.

--Senzo

Sheriff: “A man can get a job, he might not look to close at what that job is. But a man learns all the details of a situation like ours, well, then he has a choice.”
Mal: “I don't believe he does.”

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Thursday, October 23, 2003 10:13 AM

ZAPHODB

Some fans have put forth the suggestion that the good Shepherd Book is actually General Richard Wil-. It's an interesting concept.

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Thursday, October 23, 2003 6:09 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I didn't think that the incoming ships were the Angels, Sarah. I presumed that they weren't coming at all. I wish I knew for how much longer the war persisted after that point. Does anybody know the firepower capability the Angels were supposed to have? Were they a match for the incoming ships that we see in the pilot.

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Thursday, October 23, 2003 8:23 PM

STARRTAGG

I do not think that the Independants were sold out. Think back on the Civil War and remember that the North finally defeated the South through numbers as well as through some lucky decisions. That is how some wars have been won. It is unfortunate, but that has been case in some circumstances. Of course I could be wrong.

Do you think I'm a complete back birth!

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Thursday, October 23, 2003 11:23 PM

SOUTHERNMERC

The North won the Civil War not just with numbers, but with clever politicking as well.

As for the scene in the pilot, in the background behind the landing craft are the entry trails of DOZENS of ships entering atmosphere. It looks like the Alliance sent reinforcements that way. That was why it was too hot.

Sold out? Don't think so, but then war is an ugly business. Could have happened, but probably not on that kinda scale. Or it could have been a kinda "they're abandoning us" selling out.

Since Joss based the War of Unification loosely (very loosely) upon the Civil War, and thus Firefly on the Reconstruction Era, the Independants fought extremely well. They probably won ALOT of battles, like the South did in CW, but like the South, got overwhelmed, outgunned, and outsupplied.

I think though, that one image as Mal is looking up out of the HQ, looking out at the entry of the Alliance. The look on his face as he realizes just WHAT dropped in...

Jayne: "How big a room?"

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Thursday, October 23, 2003 11:24 PM

SOUTHERNMERC

Oh, and if Book IS Gen. Wilkins...omg what will Mal do when he finds out?

Jayne: "How big a room?"

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Friday, October 24, 2003 6:11 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I have a feeling that Mal already has a general idea of who Book really is. And even though there is much similarity between Firefly's serenity valley battle and the Civil War, I can't make the assumption that both were resolved in the same way.

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Wednesday, November 12, 2003 10:37 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

What happened to Mal at the end of the Battle of Serenity Valley? I know that he was ordered by the higher-ups to surrender, but I don't think that he did.
I seem to recall that during the message, we get a flashback of Mal saying that he'd never lay down arms. I think that Mal fought on at the battle for Serenity valley, and that he eventually had to run.
Otherwise, shouldn't he be dead, or in some sort of military prison? After the independents were ordered to surrender, they were still getting killed by the Alliance. Mal wouldn't just sit there and die, and we know he didn't.
But did he surrender? If so, it doesn't seem likely that he would just get his military pay and then be allowed to go off and cause havoc.

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Wednesday, November 12, 2003 10:44 AM

STILLSHINY

Now this is a thought that warrants some consideration. Now ya got me thinking.

You think I look good now, wait till you see me in my new "Browncoat T-shirt"

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Wednesday, November 12, 2003 6:45 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
I seem to recall that during the message, we get a flashback of Mal saying that he'd never lay down arms. I think that Mal fought on at the battle for Serenity valley, and that he eventually had to run.

I think Mal meant what he said at the time. That is the battle they flashback to during The Message is earlier in the war than Serenity Valley. Mal may have had no choice this time. Besides the way Zoe describes the aftermath of the battle it seems like all fighting had stopped and survivors on both sides were just left there.

Quote:
Otherwise, shouldn't he be dead, or in some sort of military prison? After the independents were ordered to surrender, they were still getting killed by the Alliance. Mal wouldn't just sit there and die, and we know he didn't. But did he surrender? If so, it doesn't seem likely that he would just get his military pay and then be allowed to go off and cause havoc.

Sure troops get killed after a surrender, but eventually most of the killing stops (depends who your captors are). And even if he spent time in a POW camp, he was obviously released.

All that being said it might be cool to have a scene where Mal clearly states that he never personally surrendered. Like John Wayne's character Ethan in The Searcers.

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Thursday, November 13, 2003 1:13 AM

DRAKON

The story is that a cease fire existed for about 5 days. Mal ended up commanding about 2,000 (?) sick injured and unsupplied troops while the Alliance and Browncoats held peace talks. No medical supplies and no food and water for five days, after a harsh fight, is not good. Only Zoe and himself of his original platoon survived.

POWs are held only until the conclusion of hostilities. He would not be in a military prison 6 after the war ended, unless he HAD run and was continuing guerilla operations long after hostilities had ceased. Granted there is some vetting, and it depends on how much the Geneva convention holds in the Firefly verse, but still, as long as he had surrendered and had ceased hostilities when the war was over, no reason for him to be in prison based on his war record.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:14 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

That's good story Drakon. Where'd you come by it?

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Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:32 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Wilkins, it does indeed say Wilkins.

Taped it, ran it though audiotraq, cut out the other dialogue and ambience.

General Richard Wilkins, is what it says.

Glad to have been able to clear that one up.

-frem
diefuxdie

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Thursday, November 13, 2003 1:33 PM

DESANGRO

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Wilkins, it does indeed say Wilkins.

Taped it, ran it though audiotraq, cut out the other dialogue and ambience.

General Richard Wilkins, is what it says.

Glad to have been able to clear that one up.

-frem
diefuxdie

Wilkins was the last name of Adam Baldwin's character in "The Patriot." Is this a cool in-joke or what?

"My heart bleeds for you." --Citizen Captain De Sangro, to Citizen First Lieutenant Timmons.

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Friday, November 14, 2003 1:20 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
That's good story Drakon. Where'd you come by it?

I am doing this from memory, but I think it was in the original pilot script. There was a cut scene where Simon (or was it Book) is looking up Serenity valley in his encylopedia, and Zoe explains this stuff to him.

Check a related thread on Book's identity. The encylopedia is cut off just as it mentions the great alliance military commander who won that battle. You get a fragment of his name, and some have speculated that maybe Book was that commanding officer.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Friday, November 14, 2003 9:38 AM

ZAPHODB

Hee. The original scene you speak of is in this thread. I posted it myself.

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Wednesday, December 24, 2003 4:08 AM

GUNSLINGER

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
The story is that a cease fire existed for about 5 days. Mal ended up commanding about 2,000 (?) sick injured and unsupplied troops while the Alliance and Browncoats held peace talks. No medical supplies and no food and water for five days, after a harsh fight, is not good. Only Zoe and himself of his original platoon survived.

POWs are held only until the conclusion of hostilities. He would not be in a military prison 6 after the war ended, unless he HAD run and was continuing guerilla operations long after hostilities had ceased. Granted there is some vetting, and it depends on how much the Geneva convention holds in the Firefly verse, but still, as long as he had surrendered and had ceased hostilities when the war was over, no reason for him to be in prison based on his war record.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

After WWII the Soviets held some German POWs until the late 50s. The last POW still living was released in 1958. I guess it depends on how the peace negotiations went. I would hope that the decent treatment of the Browncoat POWs would have been the first condition of a surrender.

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Wednesday, December 24, 2003 8:43 AM

TEELABROWN

Don't know what to tell you, but I felt I was there on the battle field with them when those gorram humungous ships were landing. To know that you may have no hope of winning, man I wanted to cry. Well, I don't really cry, so that's just me.

............................................................................................
"Freedom is the Freedom to say that 2+2 makes 4. If that is granted, all else follws"-Winston, 1984
Keep flyin', and remember, THEY can't take the sky from US!

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Wednesday, December 24, 2003 9:50 AM

KELSO

I've always thought that it would have been a great twist if Shepard Book had been on one of those Alliance ships that Mal saw landing in the distance.

Imagine a shot later in the series which takes us back to that moment, but as Mal looks on we experiance an incredible zoom to reveal Book in the window of the ship looking back at him.

Well, here I am.

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Thursday, December 25, 2003 3:53 PM

GUNSLINGER

Quote:
Originally posted by TeelaBrown:
Don't know what to tell you, but I felt I was there on the battle field with them when those gorram humungous ships were landing. To know that you may have no hope of winning, man I wanted to cry. Well, I don't really cry, so that's just me.

............................................................................................
"Freedom is the Freedom to say that 2+2 makes 4. If that is granted, all else follws"-Winston, 1984
Keep flyin', and remember, THEY can't take the sky from US!

I have always been on the other side of those situations. I did feel a sense of pitty for the other guys, but it did not slow me down.

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Thursday, December 25, 2003 7:11 PM

AGREY

I think y'all are on the right track, but missing a point about the Battle of Serenity Valley: It was six years (roughly) before the rest of the series...and when Mal, Zoe, and Jayne got into the fight with the patrons of that Alliance bar on Unification Day, there was much mention of SIX years since Unification Day...when "The treaty" was signed. Compared to "the treaty" that was negoiated for between five and seven full days before they sent in the medships, it appears that Serenity Valley finished the Indies. Considering also the listed forces-very heavy for a consistently outgunned and outmanned force to commit-it says two things: that the Indies were throwing every possible unit at the Alliance advance through Serenity Valley to stop it, and that they therefore had an objective which they must hold-which was apparently accessible easiest through the Serenity Valley. In otherwords, it sounds like the Independence Movement was making a desperate blocking maneuver to hold onto an absolutely critical 'something'...and when the Indy Generals saw the incoming reinforcements, they informed their political superiors, who ordered them to cut their losses in the valley while the Indy political leadership negoiated a surrender...so it does sound like the troops on the ground got screwed...more like they were dropped into a Charlie Foxtrot by their own commanders.
This all does fit with comments from both Mal, but especially Zoe, both on the ship, and in the battle scene, since she said that they 'must hold or all is lost' (I am paraphrasing...I just finished watching the DVD in order, and my memory ain't Quite Dat Good.) and the shocked expression on her face when told over the comms that air support isn't coming would also support that theory. (Although, in all fairness, that could just be because she has just been told she was consigned to a deathtrap.)
It would also explain why the Alliance would not send in air support...because if the objective beyond the valley and the blocking Indy forces was as important as it appeared to be (and from as hard as the fighting went and all the Indy forces committed to holding Serenity Valley, it appeared to have been absolutely critical), then there was no reason, aside from trying to garner a little good will for negotiations, that even a combatant as outnumbered as the Indies would not sacrafice all available air support to get the Alliance troops and the landing craft touching down...since those vessels were definitely landing craft. And whether heavily armed or not (and they probably were) they still would have been fairly easy prey for half-competent Close Air Support pilots in even half-shitty aircraft, since the landing craft were obviously vulnerable (they were landing, and hence almost stationary and nearly perfectly boxed in and silhoutted targets) to any fairly fast and agile aerospace attack craft...and judging by the quality of the Indy ground troops, the Indy pilots, while not possibly in the most advanced craft, were probably some of the best in space (this late in such a war, outnumbered as they were, the majority of those who were alive would be elite veterans, seeing as the newbies would normally provide most of the casualties), so, the Indy CAS should have been able to turn the Serenity Valley into an abbatoir for the bottlenecked, and moentarily un-aircovered Alliance forces...and presumably deal the Alliance an extremely nasty defeat (lots of dead troops and extreme amounts of wrecked drop ships and other aerospace craft...that would hurt alot...). But, no, the Alliance managed to negoiate a treaty, leading me to suspect what amounts to bribery of the civilian Independence leadership...

And on the subject of the good Book's idnetity, we know that he is at least not only a Shepherd, or perhaps not one at all, although I am pretty sure he is NOW a Shepherd. Judging from his excellent unarmed combat skills, superb marksmanship, and Alliance-assistance inducing Ident Card, he appears to have a backround of military work, probably covert. That is all I can say with any certantity...anything else is speculation...but I doubt that he is General Wilkins. He would probably have turned out to have witnessed the Battle of Serenity Valley first hand from one of those ships, and he probably was crucial to the Indy defeat...but I somehow doubt he was the general...generals, even victorious Alliance generals, seldom become a roving preacher trying to better the universe. Book's past he won't talk about combined with his extreme talent at violence and the fact that he appears to be doing penance for (a) terrible deed(s) indicates (to me) that he was most likely in covert ops...especially NASTY way Cladestine Black Ops, to be exact.
Anyway, there is my little contribution to this rather interesting discussion.

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Thursday, December 25, 2003 11:48 PM

WILLIAMX

It would be wierd for Book to be such a public figure as an alliance general. I am almost positive someone like Mal or Zoe would have cortexed up the guy the ended the war, just to look at him.

As far as the surrender goes, if you are on defense you are pretty much responding to what the attackers are doing. If they are dropping overwhelming arty on you then you sit in a hole and pray. If they stop shooting and you get valid orders that the gig is up, then you are only going to shoot if shot at, and pretty much wait and see what happens. If you've just come out of a really sporty situation when the shooting stops you won't really care why . . .

That's just my few years in the light infantry talking though . . . It's hard for me to understand what an all out war would be like in the firefly era . . . I mean, why not just drop some nukes or biologics on the valley and be done with it . . .

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Friday, December 26, 2003 1:38 AM

AGREY

I was going to say, it sounded like you are a receipent of the Combat Infantryman's Badge. And yes, if they the Indies were contained in a valley, why even bother with a nuke? with all the asteroid mining that is probably going on and providing rare and precious elements, why not just use the old stand-by of a couple thirty foot rods of tungsten/depleted uranium, dropped from orbit. Kinetic interdiction is cleaner, more destructive, and cheaper for the attacker...and pretty much unstoppable once inbound. But I still think the Indies got sold out by their top civy officials, probably for promises of mass pardons by the Alliance.

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Friday, December 26, 2003 3:48 AM

GUNSLINGER

That brings us back to the question of what thet were defending. I suspect they are just as hesitant to use WMD as we are. Such an act could generate sympathy for the Independants. You can't loose sight of the political ends of a war.

By the way, there were a lot of escorts mixed in with all of the landers.

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Monday, December 29, 2003 9:21 AM

WILLIAMX

No CIB for me . . . 31v not elligable. Too bad too cuz my damn ruck was heavy heavy, and 25 miles is a long way to walk in 12 hours. (31v is a deleted army MOS, tactical communications. I've been out a long time . . .) I do have a 7th ID patch for my right sleeve, Air Assault wings and a Manchu belt buckle (Keep up the Fire), but that's neither here nor there . . .

It was never really made clear what the point of the battle was, but valley's are typically choke points. Once the indies lost control of the air/space they became doomed, since they Alliance could just go over them (verticle evelopment) surround and starve, shell, bomb them to submission.

Could be the alliance had any number of reasons not to WMD them, but I doubt public opinion was one of them . . .

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Tuesday, January 27, 2004 1:01 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by SouthernMerc:
Oh, and if Book IS Gen. Wilkins...omg what will Mal do when he finds out?

Hmmm - assuming that General Wilkins plan was so smart and shiny and all, wouldn't he have got a few pictures of himself in them there books?

I could buy Book (no pun intended) being someone in the Alliance, but surely everyone would recognise the General that won the war, or at least wonder why he looked so familiar.

Speaking of that cut scene from Serenity - wouldn't it have been a little too info dump? Simon, being smart, would have been taught history no doubt.

Given history is written by the victors, I have little doubt he would have been taught about Serenity by rote. Hence, the only reason to look it up would be for the viewers. A good cut methinks.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, January 27, 2004 1:55 PM

GUNRUNNER

On the subject of those landing ships we really can't assume that they are defenseless ships. Modern day landing ships carry Surface to Air missiles, Close in weapon systems, deck guns, rocket launchers, and even anti-ship mines. The bigger ones have squadrons of jet fighters or anti-ship missiles! Also since those landing ship were probably coming from a warship in orbit we could safely assume there are some interceptors stationed up there to interdict any CAS aircraft. Plus the alliance probably has some shiny high tech man portable SAM or small air defense vehicles like the present day Avenger or Roland systems.

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Wednesday, January 28, 2004 12:23 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
Speaking of that cut scene from Serenity - wouldn't it have been a little too info dump? Simon, being smart, would have been taught history no doubt. Given history is written by the victors, I have little doubt he would have been taught about Serenity by rote. Hence, the only reason to look it up would be for the viewers. A good cut methinks.

I'm going to call myself an idiot before anyone else does. Battle of Serenity was set 6 years before "Serenity", right?

I'm guessing that puts Simon a little too old to still be being taught history as a compulsory subject. The point still remains valid, I would find it hard to believe that the turning point in a war that had been going on for five years or more didn't register enough with him not to need to look it up (I'm going on the basis that River mentions Independent soldiers in the flashback in Safe - "11 years ago").

"I threw up on your bed"

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Thursday, January 29, 2004 9:48 AM

SOUTHERNMERC

Upon further reflection, I believe Book is NOT Gen. Wilkins, but possibly a Judge or Magistrate. Someone that deals with criminals alot (hence the information on criminal dealings), and would be very important to the Alliance (as shown in "Safe").

My best guess there would be the FF equivalent to my towns important historical figure: Judge Parker, called the "Hanging Judge." Yes, no, maybe?

WMD? Probably, as was said earlier, there was something important in that area, and so did NOT want it damaged. While it has been hinted at before, bio weapons use was mentioned in "Trash," such weapons DO leave a mess to contend with.

Jayne: "How big a room?"

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Thursday, January 29, 2004 11:50 AM

FIREFLYWILDCARD1

Interesting discussion.

Here's my two cents: As has been noted before, the Independents probably ran out of supplies and/or ways to supply their troops trapped in Serenity Valley. Also I think the explosions that were taking place as the ships landed were caused by rockets being fired from those ships.

The issue of the Indies' brass selling them out is an interesting one. The troops probably felt that they were sold out but there might not have been any actual bribing/selling out going on. I think that if I were as dedicated as the enlisted Indies seemed to be, I would feel like I was sold out when told to lay down my weapons. The other part of the selling out issue, (and I believe it's been mentioned), is that the troops probably felt abandoned by those who weren't actually at the front fighting.

I'm going to make myself look like an ignorant fool with this question, but here goes anyways. Who is General Richard Wilkins? Is he an actual historical figure? Or was he in one of Joss's other shows (I don't watch Buffy or Angel)? I tried doing a google search and all I get is this thread.

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Thursday, January 29, 2004 12:15 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Quote:
Originally posted by fireflywildcard1:
Interesting discussion.
I'm going to make myself look like an ignorant fool with this question, but here goes anyways. Who is General Richard Wilkins? I tried doing a google search and all I get is this thread.

Yay! We're the font for all knowledge regarding Richard Wilkins! Go Firefly, it's your Birthday.

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 11:11 AM

ANKHAGOGO

I'm going to make myself look like an ignorant fool with this question, but here goes anyways. Who is General Richard Wilkins? Is he an actual historical figure? Or was he in one of Joss's other shows..

Well, I had to go look just to make sure I didn't look like a big retard, but I thought the name sounded familiar, and yep...Richard Wilkins III is the Mayor on Buffy.

As to the rest of the discussion, I have mixed ideas. I don't know that I think the troops were literally sold out, though I wouldn't discount the idea completely. But that's because I'd rather think we --er, they --were betrayed than they just couldn't fight hard enough, if that makes any sort of sense.

There are, as someone pointed out, always the political aspects to consider, but I tend to get pragmatic, so here's a very basic thought:
Wars cost money. Lots of it.
The Alliance forces were probably very well funded by Blue Sun & such, and I'd imagine that the Browncoats were backed by, oh, say, Frank's Truckstop, or someone equally influential. That is to say, I'm willing to bet the Independents were having serious money issues. Sure, they may have been far more determined to win (if Mal's any indication), but all the determination in the 'verse ain't gonna win you a war if your troops starve cause you can't afford to feed em.
Could be the brass at Browncoat HQ knew they were broke and realized they couldn't keep up the fighting any more. Could be the Alliance found a way to cut off the Independent's cash flow and threatened something heinous if they didn't surrender right quick.
Combine lack of funds with whatever political manuvering was going on and you've got a surefire receipe for defeat.

Ankhagogo

"She was naked....and all--articulate!"

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