Out of Gas and Gravity by Ixian

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Out of Gas and Gravity

POSTED BY: IXIAN
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 12:39
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 8829
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Saturday, April 29, 2006 7:55 PM

My first post here and I thought I'd open with a question that has bugged me since I first watched this incredible show:

In Out of Gas, an episode that usually makes it in to the "top two" for most fans, we see the effects of Serenity losing most of it's power and life support. However, what about gravity? Obviously, the show's budget wasn't going to allow for any floating about inside the ship for an extended period, but was it ever explained? You'd think with both the engine and life support going out, to the point where there was no more air being produced nor heat that there wouldn't be gravity either, but it's ignored. The ship is even shown a couple times sitting bone-still in space. Was this ever explained or is it just one of those things we have to chalk up to creative license?

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Saturday, April 29, 2006 8:03 PM

FLETCH2

The roleplaying game attempts to explain it in terms of ubertech (kind of out of keeping with Firefly's low tech approach.)

At it's heart Firefly isnt really a tech show, the tech is inconsistant and the 'Verse in general doent really work. I think you just have to suck it up and accept it and glory in the rich characterisation as compensation.

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Saturday, April 29, 2006 8:29 PM

DATALESS

If you listen to The Signal Podcast they postulated that the gravity is most likely something that uses zero point energy and that once you turn it on it is always on and is independent from the ship's power systems. The episode is the second of the second season. Here's the link http://signal.serenityfirefly.com/season2/signal_002.html I hope that helps.

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Saturday, April 29, 2006 8:31 PM

ANONYMOUS1

Quote:
Originally posted by Ixian:
In Out of Gas, an episode that usually makes it in to the "top two" for most fans, we see the effects of Serenity losing most of it's power and life support. However, what about gravity? Obviously, the show's budget wasn't going to allow for any floating about inside the ship for an extended period, but was it ever explained? You'd think with both the engine and life support going out, to the point where there was no more air being produced nor heat that there wouldn't be gravity either, but it's ignored.

Great first post.

Here is my explantion.

In the episode "The Message"

Kaylee says "All this hard banking. When the gravity drive and actual gravity start working against each other, it tosses the lunch about a bit."

Serenity didn't lose power. It lost engine that made it move. It lost life support. No heat. No fresh air. But the lights still worked. The screen monitor worked. The hatch that let in fresh air worked. And the gravity drive still worked. Maybe the gravity drive supplies the power for all those other things...zero point module?? (SG Atlantis)

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Saturday, April 29, 2006 8:56 PM

ANONYMOUS1

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
The roleplaying game attempts to explain it in terms of ubertech (kind of out of keeping with Firefly's low tech approach.)

I don't think it is low tech approach. Look at the Ariel hospital imaging system examing River.

I think Joss explained the shows attitude toward tech somewhere. Everyone is used to the level of tech and it is considered normal. When something breaks, you get the person who knows how to fix it or you throw it out and get a new one. Nobody talks about the gravity drive until it stops working.

Just like electricity, phones, TVs, cars, computers on Earth That Was. They were amazing once. Taken for granted now that you flip the switch and the electricity turns on.

Zoe: "You live on a spaceship, dear."
Wash: "So?"

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
At it's heart Firefly isnt really a tech show, the tech is inconsistant and the 'Verse in general doent really work. I think you just have to suck it up and accept it

Why when you can make up explanations for everything and in an emergency use magic?

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
and glory in the rich characterisation as compensation.

So true!

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Saturday, April 29, 2006 9:23 PM

FLORALBUNNY

Ixian wrote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My first post here
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And you are 'coat #20483 or thereabouts.

Welcome to our sector of the 'Verse. Check out the buffet in the galley. Strawberries a specialty of the house. If we can find FollowMal we'll have her issue your virtual browncoat.

Enjoy a frosty mug of Mudder's Milk while you contemplate the mystery that is the Science of Firefly.

Whedon has stated that he "gave up on science" as a teenager, so we might as well lie back, relax and enjoy it.

For OoG, I'm in favor of the explanation that it is the engine which powers the heat and air systems, maybe (though not necessary to discuss it) the water reclamation, but not electricity which runs lights and comm., and whatever runs the "gravgen."

bun
~6/23~Serenity/Firefly Summer~9/30~
----- why's the rum gone? -----

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Sunday, April 30, 2006 3:01 AM

J6NGO1977

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
The roleplaying game attempts to explain it in terms of ubertech (kind of out of keeping with Firefly's low tech approach.)

At it's heart Firefly isnt really a tech show, the tech is inconsistant and the 'Verse in general doent really work. I think you just have to suck it up and accept it and glory in the rich characterisation as compensation.

I agree, Whedon never explains Techy stuff in Firefly unlike Star Trek that trys to explain it's own verse with 'Flux Capacitors and Inertial Dampers'. At the end of the day the show is about the people in a future setting. Maybe the gravity generator is in another part of the ship away from the engine room. Remember it's 500 years in the future. Anything could have happened and anything could have been invented in between now and then. We just don't know

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Sunday, April 30, 2006 3:11 AM

ZISKER

Welcome to the board, Ixian!

Wow. You know, I never even caught this one before. But I would agree with the sentiment that Firefly is more 'soft SF' and character focused than 'hard SF' and science focused. For me (even though there's an explanation in the RPG), that's enough to suspend disbelief and assume the gravity is on an independent system. And, as Anon1 pointed out, the lights stayed on. The show was very good at dealing with integrated technology - heck, even Kaylee was a mechanic, not some fancy-dan engineer.

One day.
One plan.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
http://www.serenityday.org/

Little or no free time, but want to help?
Help Spread the Signal: http://www.geocities.com/browncoatsignalcorps

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Sunday, April 30, 2006 3:56 AM

DATALESS

Quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous1:
zero point module?? (SG Atlantis)

On SG-1 and Atlantis a Z.P.M. Or Zed P.M. is a module that taps in to a scientific concept called Zero Point Energy. Zero point energy is believed to the energy source that creates gravity or it could just be fiction.

Did you know that every object no matter how big or small has a gravitational pull and that pull exerts its pull on every other object in the universe?

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Sunday, April 30, 2006 5:08 AM

IXIAN

Wow, thanks for all the responses. I see this is a very active community.

I guess I can be called a latter-day Browncoat:); Firefly was always one of those shows I heard about but never got around to watching. I tried watching the pilot a couple times when SciFi showed it but the beginning just made it seem like a cheesy very low-budget futuristic war show (little did I know that while very important to the story that beginning was nothing like the rest of the show). I finally gave in several months ago, sat down and watched all of Our Mrs. Reynolds - and was immediately hooked. Bought the DVD set the next day and haven't looked back :)

Regarding the "soft science" concept in Firefly: I agree, it shouldn't be like Star Trek where every little piece of tech is explained with pseudo-science (and then, when a later show contradicts it, the fans get in an uproar) and gizmo's are a fixture of the show, however in the case of OoG it does stand out because of the nature of the plot. Since the whole show revolves around the ship Serenity "dying" and Mal refusing to give up it's the only show where for the first time I even bothered to notice gravity; everything else was going out on Serenity so why not it? They even make a point of showing the ship "sitting" dead still in space, the debris from the fire floating in place around it. I guess we can assume the ship's batteries were still running (and would last longer than the air, at any rate) but would that be enough to power...gravity? I guess I had a hard time with that concept that air and heat could be completely cut off but gravity somehow still functions.

Obviously I am thinking about this too hard to I'll just give it a rest and enjoy the show some more :-)

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Sunday, April 30, 2006 8:48 AM

ANONYMOUS1

Quote:
Originally posted by Ixian:
I guess we can assume the ship's batteries were still running (and would last longer than the air, at any rate) but would that be enough to power...gravity? I guess I had a hard time with that concept that air and heat could be completely cut off but gravity somehow still functions.

Hadn't thought of batteries.

Gravity drive might not have to use power.

Might be Dark Matter in the Gravity Drive.

Very small singularity??

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Sunday, April 30, 2006 9:07 AM

KHYRON

We know nothing about the gravity drive of the ship, nor does anybody here, in fact not even most physicists and engineers, have an idea how such a thing could work. All we know is that, apparently, it does function fairly well without a large amount of electricity supplied to it (batteries being the only possible source of power). Anything else is just pure speculation on our part and if we take it too seriously we'll end up in the realm of Trek geekiness (no offence to any Trekkies here

).

Regarding the Serenity being deadstill in space thing, I don't think that was the case. She was probably still moving at the same speed as usual, just one can't tell because the stars in the background don't move. What made her look so still was the fact the the "camera" was in the same moving reference frame as Serenity, whereas it's in another reference frame whenever Serenity travels under her own power. So it's really a cinematographical effect to make Serenity seem helpless.

Then again, relative to everything else, anything can be seen as being deadstill (if it's the reference frame) or moving. But my point is, relative to the space around it, Serenity was still moving.

Welcome to the board, by the way. I wish my first post could have been that good.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Sunday, April 30, 2006 9:13 AM

J6NGO1977

Remember the crew came across a 'dead ship' in'Bushwhacked' which also had gravity

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Sunday, April 30, 2006 8:17 PM

SPACEMANSPIFF

Gravity is a tricky business. It could be that the grav units are able to power themselves, sort of like a fusion plant, but based on a different concept. Grav generators may be totally self-sufficient.

The RPG book does a little explaining, saying that grav and anti-grav are ubiquitous in the "Verse, and no one thinks about it until it breaks, which is very rarely. You can't propel a ship with it, you still need a reaction drive, but you can lessen your mass so that you need less of a push.

Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?

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Monday, May 1, 2006 11:10 AM

J6NGO1977

Quite recently I watched a Documentry in UK about the truth behind UFOs. A guy had created a form of anti grav in his garage. It actually showed a triangular object, about 1 metere across, he had created which was hovering about 2 metres above the ground. The interviewer was as stunned as i was. The guy who built it said it had something to do with the switching of electrical charges but he wasn't too sure himself. I think we are on our way to anti grav. It's not too far off

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Monday, May 1, 2006 7:32 PM

FREERADICAL42

Quote:
Originally posted by Dataless:
Quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous1:
zero point module?? (SG Atlantis)

On SG-1 and Atlantis a Z.P.M. Or Zed P.M. is a module that taps in to a scientific concept called Zero Point Energy. Zero point energy is believed to the energy source that creates gravity or it could just be fiction.

Did you know that every object no matter how big or small has a gravitational pull and that pull exerts its pull on every other object in the universe?

Zero-point energy is the energy of a particle with quantum number zero; it's not any sort of energy source. It bothers me that it's been used in a few different places as if "zero point energy" means some kind of energy source.

"See, morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with, long as she does it quiet-like."

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Monday, May 1, 2006 7:35 PM

FREERADICAL42

Quote:
Originally posted by j6ngo1977:
Quite recently I watched a Documentry in UK about the truth behind UFOs. A guy had created a form of anti grav in his garage. It actually showed a triangular object, about 1 metere across, he had created which was hovering about 2 metres above the ground. The interviewer was as stunned as i was. The guy who built it said it had something to do with the switching of electrical charges but he wasn't too sure himself. I think we are on our way to anti grav. It's not too far off

This type of device is called a "lifter"; it relies on pumping massive amounts of voltage and current through a wire strung over another conductor (generally a skirt of aluminum).

NASA did a long investigation of this propulsion method because they thought it might be some form of antigravity; eventually it was discovered that all that was happening is the electricity through the wire is putting a charge on the air, and the newly charged air is attracted to the aluminum and something called an "ion wind" is made, which creates lift.

It's not anti-gravity, because no one has as yet isolated a way to generate gravitons. When we can do that, there will be anti-gravity, but we're far off from isolating gravitons.

"See, morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with, long as she does it quiet-like."

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 12:39 AM

J6NGO1977

aaaaahhh very interesting. I guess anti grav would be a way of reducing the gravitational pull of the earth. Not an easy thing to do :)

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 5:54 AM

FREERADICAL42

Quote:
Originally posted by j6ngo1977:
aaaaahhh very interesting. I guess anti grav would be a way of reducing the gravitational pull of the earth. Not an easy thing to do :)

It's even trickier than that. Think of gravity's pull as a beam which always approaches at the speed of light; to counteract it you'd need an equal beam coming from an opposite direction, or some similar magics.

"See, morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with, long as she does it quiet-like."

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 4:26 AM

REDRIVER

what bugs me the most is not the gravity bein' still on in OoG. it's the fact that Firefly stops with the engine. that was made pretty clear thoughtout the episode from Kayelee and Mal's comments. how come the ship came to a complete stop in space? the fire/air ejection wasn't near enough to slow down a ship movin' at one precent of the speed of light.
anyways, guess what they ment is the ship stopped acceleratin' and not stopped movin'.
the only way to stop a space ship in space is to use reverse thrusters. which, I might add, would take 'bout as lon' if not longer as gettin' the ship up to its "max" speed.
and last but not the least. why was the episode called out of gas? weren't they out of air rather than "gas"? the engine was dead but there was no problem with the fuel.
just my 2 broken coins...

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 5:22 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Ixian:

My first post here and I thought I'd open with a question that has bugged me since I first watched this incredible show:

In Out of Gas, an episode that usually makes it in to the "top two" for most fans, we see the effects of Serenity losing most of it's power and life support. However, what about gravity? Obviously, the show's budget wasn't going to allow for any floating about inside the ship for an extended period, but was it ever explained? You'd think with both the engine and life support going out, to the point where there was no more air being produced nor heat that there wouldn't be gravity either, but it's ignored. The ship is even shown a couple times sitting bone-still in space. Was this ever explained or is it just one of those things we have to chalk up to creative license?

As Fletch2 said, don't worry about it. Firefly is character driven, not tech driven like Star Trek nor is it action driven like everything else.

That isn't to say that other things aren't good. Just that when it comes to tech in the Firefly 'Verse, sometimes, you just have to accept it and move on.

For that matter, I didn't even notice this until it was brought up on this site a while back. That ep doesn't exactly lend itself to paying attention to the tech. More along the lines of "Oh crap!" every few seconds/minutes. Quite an emotional roller-coaster ride.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 12:43 PM

TRAVELER

Welcome Ixian:

I see plenty of people in posts before mine have pondered the gravity issue so I'll bypass that and just welcome you to our verse.

I hope you have more questions, as you see it gets us thinking and that is one of the nice things about this fansite.

Traveler

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 1:03 PM

MEENOL

In Serenity (the pilot episode) they talk about taking on gravity "supplies", so it's entirely possible that it's some sort of uberdense radioactive substance (or something) that slowly degenerates over time, lessening the effect and meaning they need to take on more radioactive stuff.

It would also explain why it was still there in OOG and Bushwhacked: there's no electrical charge involved, and so no dependence on electrical power.

Although now I think about it, that would make taking off extremely difficult, as the substance would attract planets' surfaces as well, resulting in seriously weird (and probably dangerous, thanks to loose rocks) effects as a ship takes off, if it could even must enough propulsion to counteract the extra gravity produced by the ship. Meh, I tried. But the need to take on gravity supplies as a discrete commodity still stands.

-----------------

No, THIS is what going mad feels like.

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 1:20 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Meenol:

In Serenity (the pilot episode) they talk about taking on gravity "supplies",

Um, when?

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 1:26 PM

CITIZEN

Gravity supplies is never mentioned in the pilot.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 1:35 PM

MEENOL

Grrr... "grab any supplies" -> "gravity supplies"

-----------------

No, THIS is what going mad feels like.

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 1:38 PM

ODDSBODSKINS

i like that your sig ties into your comment meenol

_______
jailbait.

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 3:09 PM

HUGHFF

Actually, I think the whole gravity issue would make an excellent deus ex machina for future episodes. If you want to strand Serenity at a location while events play out, just have the gravity modulator on the fritz.

The reason is that Serenity travels from planet to planet in a matter of days therefore it must be travelling at relativistic velocities (say 0.1-0.2 c). The only way that a human could survive the acceleration needed to get a Firefly class transport up to that speed is if the gravity modulator was countering the crushing accleration g-forces. No grav, no go.

www.cpfc.org - my life
www.nbhs.school.nz - my work

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 4:10 PM

CITIZEN

Surely it would be a mcguffin?

I think it's stated that Serenity travels at 1% of lightspeed (so 0.01c), she can also take upwards of a month to travel between worlds. In Safe we know the time between Serenity taking on cattle from Persephone in Shindig and off loading them on Jiangyin is three weeks from Mal's line:
"Cattle on the ship three weeks, she don't go near 'em. Suddenly, we're on Jiangyin and she's got a driving need to commune with the beasts?"

Given that the planets of the Verse are going to be quite packed in (most of the evidence points to a single system with one star) journey times may be quite short with nothing faster than a drive like the VASIMR.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 4:25 PM

CHRISISALL

All ships of Firefly class and larger have 'grav plates' in the lowest decks, they consist of a gravity simulating matter that exerts pull in all directions, and is controlled by the ship's power so as not to attract objects to the ship's hull. While a loss of power is potentially troublesome in this area, it has no effect on the gravity-producing material.
Note in the pilot that when cargo was brought onboard, it was in a seemingly zero-G state. The 'grav neutralizers' had to be switched OFF to regain gravity in the hold, and the crates came down to the floor.
That's my guess, and yes, I'm a Treknobabble fan.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 5:21 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
The roleplaying game attempts to explain it in terms of ubertech (kind of out of keeping with Firefly's low tech approach.)

I don't recall the RPG's explanation being particularly ubertech; all their reasoning boils down to is that while it takes a goodly amount of power to set up an artificial grav field, once set up it takes very little power to maintain one.

Another way to put it is that even after power goes down, it may take several hours for a grav field to fully "relax", unless you deliberatly expend a bit of extra power to "flatten it out".

"Cap'n, I dinna think the doubletalk can stand the straaaaaain." -- The Unknown Engineer

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 5:46 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Since Anonymous1 mentions Star Gate,
I gotta contribute this. In the Episode Wormhole Xtreme, where they're doing a behind the scenes satire , an actress asks the director, paraphrased, " I'm out of phase, right? So I can walk thru walls, right? How come I don't fall thru the floor?"

and the only answer is " We'll have to get back to you on that ..."

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Monday, September 11, 2006 6:00 PM

HUGHFF

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Surely it would be a mcguffin?

I think it's stated that Serenity travels at 1% of lightspeed (so 0.01c), she can also take upwards of a month to travel between worlds. In Safe we know the time between Serenity taking on cattle from Persephone in Shindig and off loading them on Jiangyin is three weeks from Mal's line:
"Cattle on the ship three weeks, she don't go near 'em. Suddenly, we're on Jiangyin and she's got a driving need to commune with the beasts?"

Given that the planets of the Verse are going to be quite packed in (most of the evidence points to a single system with one star) journey times may be quite short with nothing faster than a drive like the VASIMR.

I'm not convinced, Citizen. I'll talk to the techhead from the planetarium next time he's in. (Did I mention we have a planetarium at work?) As I see it that's still a
Select to view spoiler:
shitload
of acceleration, even allowing for your 1% and three weeks.

From my memory (I've only watched the full series once to date, but I'm working on it) some of Serenity's voyages are only a couple of days, which means she has to get up to 3000km/s pretty fast.

Also the habitable zone of a single system is a disc about 250 - 300 million km in radius and you can't cut straight through the middle cause there's a dirty great sun in the way. As I say, I'll get the maths department to run the figures for me.

www.cpfc.org - my life
www.nbhs.school.nz - my work

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 8:35 AM

CITIZEN

I wasn't denying high acceleration that probably requires a counteract to the crews inertia, just that it's not relativistic. Hey even 0.1c isn't relatavistic, relativistic effects are really negligable until you're travelling at around 0.5c.

We can't work out Serenity's acceleration, because we don't know how long it takes her to reach these estimates of maximum speed (of course in space there's no such thing, there is just acceleration but that's a different issue for now).

If we do make some assumptions finding her maximum acceleration would actually be quite trivial. I could throw some figures together if you like.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 12:39 PM

HUGHFF

Actually, I'm happy now. We were simply talking at crosspurposes as to what we mean by relativistic velocity. You clearly meant when issues like mass and time become significant, whereas I meant when speeds are measured as a light speed value (I accept yours is less ambiguous).

www.cpfc.org - my life
www.nbhs.school.nz - my work

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