Subtle yet interesting show observations -- post yours by AnimalM0ther

In "Ariel", it is widely believed that River slices Jayne with a knife because she's somehow triggered by his Blue Sun T-shirt. But since Jayne is wearing the same Blue Sun T-shirt all throughout Bushwhacked, and River seems just fine with it, that notion has always bothered me.

... until, yesterday, it finally dawned on me what makes River's trigger accute. 'Bout four seconds earlier, River overhears Wash say:

WASH
So, two days in a hospital, huh?
(Inara nods)
That's awful. DON'T YOU JUST HATE DOCTORS?

That's it! There's a two-second comic interlude ("Don't be excluding people, that's just rude,") after which River comes at Jayne with a kitchen knife.

And, O my, was it even a comic interlude?? Or was River simply doing EXACTLY what Jayne said? Namely, while having an unpleasant flashback, "not excluding" him from being cut on?

Pieces are beginning to fall into place.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, December 31, 2006 4:50 PM

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Originally posted by Bagheera:

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Originally posted by asarian:

Seems River played Badger. From minute one.

I didnt think that was subtle, so much as obvious.

Perhaps it may have been too subtle for you to pick up on though, but I certainly dont think she was eavesdropping beforehand. She simply displayed the uncanny intuition she always had (or as wash would put it the "scifi-ish psychic ability")

*soft smile* Now, that's why it's subtle. :) Cuz the "obvious" thing is to just assume River was being highly intuitive and masterfully adapting to the situation. But, as Inara would say, nothing here is what it seems. Or rather, Joss generally sets things up in such a way that things could easily NOT be what they seem. And he can be called downright skillful, to the Nth degree, as there's no obvious conclusion to gravitate towards. Could be Book was a former Operative; could be he was a former Alliance commander; but whatever he was, Joss always leaves us dangling. Similarly, could be River's just being intuitive; could be she was eavesdropping; could be she's a reader (there's a plethora of evidence for that, too);

In fact, when you watch Firefly over and over, you'll see a gradual build-up of hints pointing to River being a full reader. That build-up is subtle in and by itself, as all throughout Firefly Joss leaves just enough room open for other interpretations. She knows Jayne betrayed them at Ariel; and in Safe she can read Ruby's mind. And in Objects in Space Simon, very subtlely, seems to be less than entirely forthright when he says "She's deeply intuitive." (which the Captain, at that point no longer buys). And she knows eerily much about Early's youth, and the things he has done:

River: "Big golden retriever, sitting on the lawn. Never took to you. Smell on you, the neighbors pets, you did things to 'em... cleaned up after."

But with all these examples, one could still argue something else than reader. She could have guessed about Early's past; or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel (which the entire crew seemed to notice, btw). Etc. Culminating, finally, in "full disclosure" at the end of the BDM, where Mal literally spells it out that River's a full reader:

Mal: "... since you already know what I'm about to say."
River: "I do. But I like to hear you say it."

And even then, it's not entirely clear WHEN River unlocked her full reader potential. Maybe the Miranda stuff blocked it partially; or could be she just grew better and better at it over time. Or could be she could do it all along.

At any rate, I believe that if there's anything really obvious in Firefly, then it is that there's nothing really obvious.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, January 1, 2007 11:19 AM

BAGHEERA

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*soft smile* Now, that's why it's subtle. :) Cuz the "obvious" thing is to just assume River was being highly intuitive and masterfully adapting to the situation.

Indifference to the facts doesnt make something subtle or masterful... more like... unfinished and wishywashy.

You could also argue that River is actually a male operative posing as River, and that his imitation of the female gender is masterful subtlety on the part of the writers and actors... but thats a load of bunk too.

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Or rather, Joss generally sets things up in such a way that things could easily NOT be what they seem. And he can be called downright skillful, to the Nth degree, as there's no obvious conclusion to gravitate towards.

I understand that brownnosing the creators is a high-competition sport on any fanboard... but I believe you again misinterpret Indifference as Skill.

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Could be Book was a former Operative; could be he was a former Alliance commander; but whatever he was, Joss always leaves us dangling.

So, if the series hadnt been cancelled, and he'd been given time to write more pulp fiction, he would have been in effect less skillful ?

It takes more skill to do something right, then it does to not do it at all.

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Similarly, could be River's just being intuitive; could be she was eavesdropping; could be she's a reader (there's a plethora of evidence for that, too)

Evidence ? lol. Could be she's a reaver for all your logic there.

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In fact, when you watch Firefly over and over, you'll see a gradual build-up of hints pointing to River being a full reader.

I have. and I have also noticed that in Safe, she SPECIFICALLY and OPENLY states things that she could not have known any other way. Do you really think the headman in Safe spilled the beans on murder to River on a drunken bender or something ?

and that aint no "last episode in the series" that was the fourth to air... so your whole theory about subtle and slow introduction of the theory is bunk too.

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That build-up is subtle in and by itself, as all throughout Firefly Joss leaves just enough room open for other interpretations.

I got a friend that refuses to acknowledge any difference between colors or directions, blaming it on colorblindness and direction blindness... does this make north the same as south, or red the same as green ? No. They are still different, even if you are willfully blind.

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She knows Jayne betrayed them at Ariel; and in Safe she can read Ruby's mind.

Very odd, I thought you had just argued that she WASNT a reader... very subtle of you to be arguing both sides of something so that you can retreat to whichever you deign to be safest.

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And in Objects in Space Simon, very subtlely, seems to be less than entirely forthright when he says "She's deeply intuitive."

again... not subtle. Simon has already shown and told the crew that he will lie, cheat, steal, whatever to protect River.

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And she knows eerily much about Early's youth, and the things he has done:

River: "Big golden retriever, sitting on the lawn. Never took to you. Smell on you, the neighbors pets, you did things to 'em... cleaned up after."

But with all these examples, one could still argue something else than reader. She could have guessed about Early's past;

thats not really subtle... but when he says "You're in my ship" subtlety might lead you to relate his ship with Serenity, and relate all that Serenity is to her crew... as being what his ship is to Early... and all that she had been railing about being Serenity and such...

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or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel

umm... she says something to the effect of "He's afraid we'll know he turned us in at Ariel"... so how the hell is that subtle ?

Subtlety lays more in the realm of "Did River deliberately instigate and encourage Jayne to turn on Simon and River, so that he would be able to move past his insecurities and become one with the crew ?"

That River reads mind is given and stated, and entirely not subtle. Whether she is precognitive or not lies more in the realm of subtlety though... (and whether she is simply applying her intuition to her reading abilities)

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And even then, it's not entirely clear WHEN River unlocked her full reader potential.

You're implying that she DID unlock her full potential, which would be completely unlike Joss... shows and characters dont get finished, they just die or get cancelled, sometimes permanently.

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Or could be she could do it all along.

considering that the entire premise behind the BDM was that she read someone while at the academy... i'm thinking she acquired her reading skills under their 'tutelage' or was that just too masterfully subtle for you ?

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At any rate, I believe that if there's anything really obvious in Firefly, then it is that there's nothing really obvious.

and the meaning of your above statement would prolly fall into the "nothing really obvious" category ?

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Monday, January 1, 2007 3:57 PM

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Originally posted by Bagheera:

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*soft smile* Now, that's why it's subtle. :) Cuz the "obvious" thing is to just assume River was being highly intuitive and masterfully adapting to the situation.

Indifference to the facts doesnt make something subtle or masterful... more like... unfinished and wishywashy.

You could also argue that River is actually a male operative posing as River, and that his imitation of the female gender is masterful subtlety on the part of the writers and actors... but thats a load of bunk too.

Gotta say, Bagheera, your talent for alienating folks is near miraculous.

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Or rather, Joss generally sets things up in such a way that things could easily NOT be what they seem. And he can be called downright skillful, to the Nth degree, as there's no obvious conclusion to gravitate towards.

I understand that brownnosing the creators is a high-competition sport on any fanboard... but I believe you again misinterpret Indifference as Skill.

Why, I sure hope he'd display enough indifference towards your imputed indifference. :)

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Could be Book was a former Operative; could be he was a former Alliance commander; but whatever he was, Joss always leaves us dangling.

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Similarly, could be River's just being intuitive; could be she was eavesdropping; could be she's a reader (there's a plethora of evidence for that, too)

Evidence? lol. Could be she's a reaver for all your logic there.

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In fact, when you watch Firefly over and over, you'll see a gradual build-up of hints pointing to River being a full reader.

I have.

Only one installment ago you didn't even know who Harken was. So, you might wanna look to replenishing your knowledge of The Material.

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... and I have also noticed that in Safe, she SPECIFICALLY and OPENLY states things that she could not have known any other way. Do you really think the headman in Safe spilled the beans on murder to River on a drunken bender or something?

Dude. You just said: "Evidence? lol.". And now you're bashing me cuz there's too much evidence? LOL. Please, kindly decide which position you take; then argue for or against. But don't change your position mid-post, or you'll wind up trashing yourself -- which is all manner of fun to watch, but it tends to muck things up.

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and that aint no "last episode in the series" that was the fourth to air... so your whole theory about subtle and slow introduction of the theory is bunk too.

But wait; this whole tirade of yours starting with you blasting me cuz I was allegedly too daft to see the "obvious", namely that River was just being intuitive when playing Badger. I guess the "obvious" has a way of not being so obvious after all, don't it?

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She knows Jayne betrayed them at Ariel; and in Safe she can read Ruby's mind.

Very odd, I thought you had just argued that she WASNT a reader...

Which part of "could be she's a reader (there's a plethora of evidence for that, too)" was confusing for you?

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or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel

umm... she says something to the effect of "He's afraid we'll know he turned us in at Ariel"... so how the hell is that subtle?

As you might say: "She simply displayed the uncanny intuition she always had." Oops. :)

I'll give you "obvious". But YOU then please make up your mind between "obviously she's just uncannily intutitive" and "obviously she's a reader". You can't have your cookie and beat it.

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Subtlety lays more in the realm of "Did River deliberately instigate and encourage Jayne to turn on Simon and River, so that he would be able to move past his insecurities and become one with the crew?"

No, that's just you grasping for straws you long since ran out of.

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Or could be she could do it all along.

considering that the entire premise behind the BDM was that she read someone while at the academy... i'm thinking she acquired her reading skills under their 'tutelage' or was that just too masterfully subtle for you?

Considering that Firefly was aired before the BDM, all throughout Firefly none of us knowed that yet. Or was that just too masterfully subtle for you? You obviously also missed the part where I suggested the Miranda stuff may have partially blocked her abilities (until her liberating catharsis at Miranda, perhaps?).

Anyhow, you should have said all of this when you started pontificating about River simply displaying the uncanny intuition she always had. Now, doing a full U-turn within only two posts, you just look silly.

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At any rate, I believe that if there's anything really obvious in Firefly, then it is that there's nothing really obvious.

and the meaning of your above statement would prolly fall into the "nothing really obvious" category ?

They tell you never to hit a man with a closed mind; but it is, on occassion, hilarious. :)

I gotta say, you're quite a rude individual. Maybe you shoulda stuck with your wiles. In all seriousness, I never back down from a fight, but I'm backing down from this one. Remember when Mal said: "I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed."? Well... I don't consider you armed.

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Tuesday, January 2, 2007 9:03 PM

KEVINGREY

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River mouths the words, "The people here stopped fighting" along with the Alliance doctor, kinda hinting that this was the big secret she knew - because you can obviously not read the mind of a hologram, so she couldn't know what she was about to say like when she mouthed words alongside Mal earlier in the movie.

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But with all these examples, one could still argue something else than reader. She could have guessed about Early's past; or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel (which the entire crew seemed to notice, btw). Etc. Culminating, finally, in "full disclosure" at the end of the BDM, where Mal literally spells it out that River's a full reader:

Mal: "... since you already know what I'm about to say."
River: "I do. But I like to hear you say it."

And even then, it's not entirely clear WHEN River unlocked her full reader potential. Maybe the Miranda stuff blocked it partially; or could be she just grew better and better at it over time. Or could be she could do it all along.

One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention thus far, is prescience. Psychometry, telepathy and others have been mentioned, but in OoG, I believe she mentions “fire” twice, each time, Simon thinking she’s talking about the candles on his cake, before the explosion occurs.

In this, there were no minds to read, no objects to read. It really could only have been a “foretelling”. Also with finding the back route out of the hospital in Ariel. Though, arguably, she could have plucked it from a random mind, her control over telepathy seems quite limited when there are more than one or two minds about to be dealt with.

Limited prescience, to my mind is of much more use to an “Assassin”, than strict telepathy since such could be quite muddled in the midst of many minds, especially in the case of the battle with the Reavers. However, having a limited prescience would allow one to foresee actions and react ahead of schedule, as-it-were. Always allowing one to be a “step ahead” when clear and focused.

This isn’t to say that she isn’t also a telepath and/or psychometrist. However, I don’t really see any chance for either of these to have given her foresight of the “fire” in OoG.

Having recently re-read the Dune series, this calls all sorts of possibilities to mind as well. First of all, in the case of the Government/Corporate interest, there would be much more interest in someone with prescience, then there would be in someone with simple telepathy.

In addition, the potential for storyline is immense and I could envision a future where River, having gained some control of her mind and abilities, suddenly becomes certain of a given future potential and comes up against Mal’s innate freedom and choice sense; one who would assuredly balk at the idea of a given destiny.
For myself, in the “subtlety” angle, I think to when River woke up in the hospital on Ariel with the “Copper for a kiss,” remark and the sudden confusion on her face as she assessed Jayne. Quite quick the play of emotions, to me and it seemed that in one moment, she reacted to his reaction, then in the next, sensed something else going on with Jayne and realized what it was.

I likewise think that the “sudden brain activity” that was missed by Simon, and her subsequent scream was in prescient response to the Blue Hands’ imminent arrival.

Just my take on it all of course.

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Tuesday, January 2, 2007 9:26 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Did anybody else notice that Saffron is like.... super fine?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, January 2, 2007 9:42 PM

FOLLOWMAL

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Originally posted by KevinGrey:
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River mouths the words, "The people here stopped fighting" along with the Alliance doctor, kinda hinting that this was the big secret she knew - because you can obviously not read the mind of a hologram, so she couldn't know what she was about to say like when she mouthed words alongside Mal earlier in the movie.

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But with all these examples, one could still argue something else than reader. She could have guessed about Early's past; or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel (which the entire crew seemed to notice, btw). Etc. Culminating, finally, in "full disclosure" at the end of the BDM, where Mal literally spells it out that River's a full reader:

Mal: "... since you already know what I'm about to say."
River: "I do. But I like to hear you say it."

And even then, it's not entirely clear WHEN River unlocked her full reader potential. Maybe the Miranda stuff blocked it partially; or could be she just grew better and better at it over time. Or could be she could do it all along.

One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention thus far, is prescience. Psychometry, telepathy and others have been mentioned, but in OoG, I believe she mentions “fire” twice, each time, Simon thinking she’s talking about the candles on his cake, before the explosion occurs.

In this, there were no minds to read, no objects to read. It really could only have been a “foretelling”. Also with finding the back route out of the hospital in Ariel. Though, arguably, she could have plucked it from a random mind, her control over telepathy seems quite limited when there are more than one or two minds about to be dealt with.

Limited prescience, to my mind is of much more use to an “Assassin”, than strict telepathy since such could be quite muddled in the midst of many minds, especially in the case of the battle with the Reavers. However, having a limited prescience would allow one to foresee actions and react ahead of schedule, as-it-were. Always allowing one to be a “step ahead” when clear and focused.

This isn’t to say that she isn’t also a telepath and/or psychometrist. However, I don’t really see any chance for either of these to have given her foresight of the “fire” in OoG.

Having recently re-read the Dune series, this calls all sorts of possibilities to mind as well. First of all, in the case of the Government/Corporate interest, there would be much more interest in someone with prescience, then there would be in someone with simple telepathy.

In addition, the potential for storyline is immense and I could envision a future where River, having gained some control of her mind and abilities, suddenly becomes certain of a given future potential and comes up against Mal’s innate freedom and choice sense; one who would assuredly balk at the idea of a given destiny.
For myself, in the “subtlety” angle, I think to when River woke up in the hospital on Ariel with the “Copper for a kiss,” remark and the sudden confusion on her face as she assessed Jayne. Quite quick the play of emotions, to me and it seemed that in one moment, she reacted to his reaction, then in the next, sensed something else going on with Jayne and realized what it was.

I likewise think that the “sudden brain activity” that was missed by Simon, and her subsequent scream was in prescient response to the Blue Hands’ imminent arrival.

Just my take on it all of course.

KevinGrey,

I'm a believer in the same theory that Asarian has posited on this subject... but I have to say you brought up something I've barely touched on in conversations and articulated it so very well. I think you're absolutely right. River is prescient.. perhaps in a limited fashion and perhaps Joss meant that ability to flourish as time went by.

As a Dune lover.... I "get" how much she's like an Honored Matre ( did I spell that right? I don't have Chaperhouse: Dune yet )... wild, full of powers too awesome to imagine and a crazy ability to perhaps know the future thrown in.

Oh, the stories left to tell.. and I think you hit it dead on with your thoughts on Mal not being able to accept some future she posits as possible and dangerous to them.

Great thinking and thank you for adding it.

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Originally posted by: 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Did anybody else notice that Saffron is like.... super fine?

Whoa dude... did anybody else notice that the guy playing Mal is like yo... super fine?

Ask me how to join The Appreciatin' Nathan Crew!
Go to www.goodworkspresents.org to find out how to honor the Captain!

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Wednesday, January 3, 2007 9:18 PM

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Did anybody else notice that Saffron is like.... super fine?

(Special) Hell, yeah! She's all kinds of pleasing! :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, January 4, 2007 4:01 PM

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Originally posted by Avatar37:
"In the very last scene with Inara, when she tells Mal she doesn't know if she wants to leave, she has absolutely no makeup on. I have to go back through the shows, but I think that is the first time she has ever been on with no makeup. It was like she was giving up being a Companion. Again, I have to double check, and if I am wrong, please let me know."

I don't think she was giving up being a companion so much as finally feeling comfortable enough around Mal and Serenity as to finally start treating it like her home. Previously, she always made a point that the shuttle was her home. I think, in her own way, it was her way of showing Mal that she loves him.

Uh, can I point out that about 3 minutes prior to this scene, she's up on the side of Serenity, repainting her badge... I think it might have something to do with her focusing on making Serenity beautiful again, applying Serenity's makeup, if you will... the focus is off Inara and Inara's identify being wrapped up in being a companion, and it has turned to Inara being identified as part of Serenity.

I think.
:o)

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Friday, January 5, 2007 1:09 AM

TATHRASEVENTEEN

Out of Gas: when Zoe asks Mal what the thing on the cargo hold floor was and Mal says it must have been something living there, Zoe is actually standing right over the place where the wounded Mal lying is in the present-day storyline.

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 4:55 PM

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It's as it should be, as sound doesn't travel in space -- or so I've heard.

YES! That made me very happy to see that. It's the frist sci-fi show that i've seen or not heard that. (ha. i crack myself up).

I like seeing all the ads for things when the crew is planet side. Seeing all the Blue Sun stuff in the background. Oh and in Serenity...when they're in the bar. The news reel that's playing is about the Reaver attack and the robbery (well, more like the people surviving in the vault). I just picked up on this when i watched it last. Sweet!

"When you can't run, you crawl. When you can't crawl, when you can't do that...You find someone to carry you."

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 5:20 PM

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 5:20 PM

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Originally posted by Cruithne3753:
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Originally posted by Nytegaunt:
From "The Message" when we learn that Jayne has a sick brother named Matty .... brothers who both share feminine sounding names.

*Ahem* That would be an endearment of Matthew... which just happens to be my name.

Yeah, I don't think there's anything feminine meant by it. But that letter did get me thinking. I know Jayne's all about Jayne. But why is he so into money. So much to betray the crew. or at least Simon and River. I was thinking maybe part of Jayne is so into money,
1. for himself, cause, hey, buying food, and his many weapons adds up.
or
2. He's close to his family. For such a bad ass, he was very fond of his hat from his mother. As I recall, he wore it the entire episode. So yeah, got to thinking. Maybe he's so into money because he wants to help his family. In the letter, it was said that he forwarded some credits. Maybe he's paying for his brother Matty's treatment. Adam Baldwin said that he always wanted to met Jayne's parents. Joss could have done something cool with that. See a softer side of Jayne.

Just a thought.

"When you can't run, you crawl. When you can't crawl, when you can't do that...You find someone to carry you."

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 5:22 PM

-_- i hate it when my computer fails at posting things.

"When you can't run, you crawl. When you can't crawl, when you can't do that...You find someone to carry you."

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Sunday, January 7, 2007 5:50 PM

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This one's from the BDM:

Did anyone else notice that the Operative only calls Mal "Mal" after he stabs him during the big fight at the end? It's weird!

Before, he only called him "Captain" or "Malcolm", very formal, very proper. But they're fighting, there's the stab...and a look of almost regret passes over the Operative's face, and he murmurs, "Do you know what your sin is...Mal?"

It's almost like only then does he respect the man enough to use the more familiar term. To be almost friendly, in a way.

It's like now, he knows Mal well enough to acknowledge it.

Very subtle, but a very nice touch.

Heh, there's also the benefit that I had to watch the movie all over again just to be sure I hadn't just imagined it. Woo-hoo!

{/quote]
Sorry to bust that one up, but he actually calls him 'Mal' when he is talking to him on the wave to Serenity after he's put fire to Haven...

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Sunday, January 7, 2007 6:11 PM

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Originally posted by Xeyra:
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Originally posted by pingjing:
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Originally posted by Volk564:
...three (most likely one): River wasn't screaming about the fact that Jayne said "we gotta book," but that she knows where they're going to Book too - namely, a trap, or four: none of the above, and I'm just crazy.
Just a thought.

I think it's the third option. The brain screen goes kind of crazy right before she starts screaming, which I think might indicate that it is recording her psychic powers. But, if I recall correctly, Simon isn't looking at the screen at that moment, he's looking at Jayne. (Haven't watched it in awhile, so I could be wrong). So he misses the whole thing. Of course, according to the escape in the BDM, I guess he already knows.

Hope that means you aren't crazy ;)

It is my understanding that when Jayne says they have to go (does he say they gotta book? Didn't notice that), that's when the image of River's brain starts acting up, showing all the areas of her brain that are reacting to her psychic understanding of Jayne's betrayal, reason why she then screams. And Simon is looking at Jayne, yes, so he does miss it. It is a really interesting scene because Ariel is one of those episodes where River's psychic abilities become startling real to the viewer...

He actually says 'we gotta do this by the book' which is, incidentally a whopping lie... which may be why River reacted...

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Sunday, January 7, 2007 6:22 PM

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Originally posted by asarian:

Shindig.

I've always wondered how long River's been listening in on Badger and henchmen before she wandered in, allegedly all confused. And this because River says: "Now you're what, petty thief with delusions of standing?"

What standing? Or rather, what standing that River knows of? It can really only refer to her having overheard Badger say: "Persephone's my home. I gotta do business with the people here. I don't want it known I brought someone in caused this kinda ruckus." But that convo took place several minutes ago. Which means River has been eavesdropping for quite a bit, all the way through the crew discussing strategy, and up and until Jayne's "We need a diversion." Then River happens to wander in, and provides one (the idea of the possibility of Jayne getting nekkid was probably too much for her to stomach, lol).

Seems River played Badger. From minute one.

Someone posted a while ago about Badger cutting up his apple like Mal and Zoe do...
Interestingly enough, River makes the comment in her little cockney homily that 'she's known plenty like him before... skipped off a little early...'
From what? ...ahuh! River knows he was a deserter... but from which side? Was he, per-maybe-haps one of the Alliance fighters who used the old apple trick...? Or one of the receivers of said nastiness (clearly not ACTUAL receiver, otherwise he'd be ended at the ribcage!)?

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Monday, January 8, 2007 5:05 AM

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Originally posted by KevinGrey:

One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention thus far, is prescience. Psychometry, telepathy and others have been mentioned, but in OoG, I believe she mentions “fire” twice, each time, Simon thinking she’s talking about the candles on his cake, before the explosion occurs.

In this, there were no minds to read, no objects to read. It really could only have been a “foretelling”.

KevinGrey,

I'm definitely with you on the prescience (or precognition, as I generally call it; though I suppose the former is a subset of the latter; but I digress). Your OoG example is as good as irrefutable: no way she could have knowed about the fire unless she foreknew (one could argue that perhaps, sub-consciously, she picked up on a weird vibe of the engine or some such; but that still don't explain her ability to foresee the upcoming fire).

There's a similar moment in Ariel:

RIVER
(to Simon)
You have to help him.

SIMON
River, we don't have time to...

RIVER
(loud)
He's killing him!

Now, River, smart as she is, ain't no Doctor. Even if she knew what the young Intern was going to administer, she doesn't know Alprazaline, combined with droxine, is going to kill the man. And she really couldn't have read the Intern's mind about it either, as the poor lad was himself oblivious to the fact that this combination is lethal!

Your subtle observations also bring me to OiS. River walks up to a laughing Simon and Kaylee, then hears Simon say: "I would be there right now." It is generally believed she's reading Simon's (subconscious) mind at the time. And this is very well possible. But Simon also just happens to repeat that exact same line later in the episode, as he's standing in the hallway, with Kaylee:

SIMON
I'm... I thought the hospital was
home. I was really making a
difference there... and
embarrassingly large stacks of money,
and I could've... I WOULD BE THERE
RIGHT NOW if she hadn't...

Granted, that's not as strong; but with all the prescience going on, who knows.

Just my two coppers. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:01 PM