Are the deleted scenes in the DVD to be considered canon? by DeSangro

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Are the deleted scenes in the DVD to be considered canon?

POSTED BY: DESANGRO
UPDATED: Monday, February 23, 2004 12:33
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Tuesday, January 6, 2004 6:02 PM

I have a question pertaining to the deleted scenes in the DVD, particularly the deleted "Serenity" scenes. The deleted scenes seem to suggest that the defeated Browncoat soldiers were left to starve for 5 days to a week (I think?), while the Alliance and Browncoat High Command argued over the peace terms. Did the Browncoat soldiers on the ground obey their superior officers and surrender, and then the Alliance just let them sit for 5 days while the Big Wigs hammered out the terms?

My first theory when I saw the episode on TV was that Mal and company surrendered immediately in the face of overwhelming firepower (ie, the ships coming down out of the sky); the Browncoats POWs were then immediately rounded up and then herded into POW camps, and then either released or shot or imprisoned.

The deleted scenes seem to disprove this theory. It makes my job as a fanfic writer a bit harder but oh well.

Are the deleted scenes to be considered as part of the cohesive body of Firefly canon? What about the deleted scene from "Objects in Space" where Inara tells Mal she's leaving? It was broadcast nationally then deleted from the dvd's version of the episode. Is it to be considered as a valid part of the Firefly canon?

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Tuesday, January 6, 2004 6:54 PM

HUMBLE

Hmmmmm. Are the deleted scenes to be used as canon? HELL YES!(Just my opinion.) I believe if they were shot, then they should be used. For whatever reason they were deleted, they still pertain to the series and are relevant. On the topic of Independents being left on Hara:I think they were basically expendable pawns.Considered insignificant by deliberators at peace negotiations. Do to the high mortality rate of survivors of battle, I would guess there are no "Geneva Conventions" protecting P.O.W.'s. I think Alliance was stalling out peace talks to further demoralize Independents.Then afterwards probably seized personal property and possesions of Independents to be used as war repairations.Maybe also blackballed Independent veterans in order to keep them from getting good paying jobs and status in the Alliance.These are just my own speculations of course.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2004 6:56 PM

SUCCATASH

Good question. I'd say it's very debatable except for the Inara scene. When you watch the deleted Inara scene, it says something like, "This scene is deleted because it no longer makes sense."

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Tuesday, January 6, 2004 7:59 PM

KERNELM

First of all, the changed Inara scene in OiS is simply redundant with the scene at the end of "Heart of Gold", and it was only there because HoG was not originally aired. Any statements there shouldn't be canon, IMO, simply because it wasn't something that was intended by the creator when he made it.

As for the other scenes, I think that while the deleted scenes can be used to inform the reading of the text, they should not be read as part of the text proper. Television is a particular medium with a set of limiting factors, and I think the text should be read within those parameters, just like other formal artistic mediums (haiku, 5-act plays, sonnets, etc). For me, the deleted scenes, shooting scripts, creator interviews, etc all fall into the same category, as things which can help you understand the show, sort of like annotations, but ultimately the show must stand on its own.

And remember that this set is presented as Joss wanted. (Similarly, I consider only the fullscreen Buffy DVDs canon. And it really frustrates me that there is no canonical version of Angel Season 2 since Fox fscked up the R1 release and made it widescreen when Angel is only supposed to go WS in season 3.)

I dunno how this would apply to fanfic though. I'm not really familiar with the strictness of fanfic. This post may be caused by my reading too many of those Buffy and philosophy books lately. ;)

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 3:08 PM

SPIKESPIEGEL

I didn't see a conflict between what aired in Serenity and what was deleted. One shows ships overhead right after the battle, and the others say that troops of both sides were left there a week. Although the shot of the ominous ships might suggest fear of being immediately overwhelmed, we don't know that those ships attacked, landed, or did anything. Thus, I assume that just as the alliance ships arrived, they received orders to stand down, and that's when everyone was left behind as both sides talked politics.

I count those scenes as canon because they don't conflict with aired material, but flesh it out and were clearly ideas Joss wanted in, that were only left out for storytelling purposes -- dramatic issues of which info to reveal when, not because he decided the info in the deleted scenes wasn't "true" anymore.

As for the OiS scene: The deleted scene cannot be canon, because the full episode HAS that same scene, different dialogue. Both can't have "happened." Therefore, the one Joss declared canon by putting it into the proper DVD release, is canon.

And I feel the same about information in scripts and such: If it fleshes out an episode, and is from Joss or his writers, it's canon. If the aired ep ended up contradicting the supplemental material, perhaps because changes were made on-set or in editing, you have to rule in favor of the actual episodes.

That's my take, anyway.

"Bang."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 4:02 PM

TALRIUS

I have to agree with spikespiegel. I took the same stance when tackling the Reference Database for this site.

There is a lot of information in the shooting scripts that gets cut out for time constraints or in favor of an easier to understand scene. This doesn't make them any less canon than what airs. It's just information that's too expository and slows down the flow of the episode.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 12:50 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

I dunno, where a scene has been deleted for time, I'd say its canon. In some cases, the scenes were cut because they didn't work or became redundant -my pet peeve being the Simon scene where the genius has to look up the battle of Serenity in his Speak n' Spell computer, for the benefit of the viewers looking over his shoulder - cut for good reason (although the info about the battle presumably can be taken as accurate unless otherwise stated).

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 1:14 PM

SPIKESPIEGEL

Simon's very intelligent and well-educated at med school, but is it so hard to believe he wouldn't know everything -- or even anything much -- about the Battle of Serenity? After all, he was probably deep in college or med school at the time, judging from his age, he comes from a family that is very privileged and probably staunchly Alliance, so the horrors of war wouldn't have been something they'd keep up with.

Firefly fans seem to be pretty smart. If you met someone whose whole life was changed by combat duty in Basrah in the first gulf war, or by the being on the losing side of the fighting in Yugoslavia's collapse, would you have it all straight in your head, or would you have to look up, say, who WAS the losing side?

I think Simon bears no shame for going to the reference, and is to be commended for pursuing the knowledge.

"Bang."

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 4:52 PM

LTNOWIS

Quote:
Originally posted by HUMBLE:
On the topic of Independents being left on Hara:I think they were basically expendable pawns.Considered insignificant by deliberators at peace negotiations. Do to the high mortality rate of survivors of battle, I would guess there are no "Geneva Conventions" protecting P.O.W.'s. I think Alliance was stalling out peace talks to further demoralize Independents.Then afterwards probably seized personal property and possesions of Independents to be used as war repairations.Maybe also blackballed Independent veterans in order to keep them from getting good paying jobs and status in the Alliance.These are just my own speculations of course.

1st of all, isn't it Hera?

That's some good speculation, and it would explain why Mal wanted a spaceship. If their was an amnesty for the browncoats, then he could have just gotten an honest job and worked 'till he died. But he mentions not being under the heel of anyone, and not having to worry about the alliance, whcih implies they wouldn't let him get a job.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 12:55 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by SpikeSpiegel:
Firefly fans seem to be pretty smart. If you met someone whose whole life was changed by combat duty in Basrah in the first gulf war, or by the being on the losing side of the fighting in Yugoslavia's collapse, would you have it all straight in your head, or would you have to look up, say, who WAS the losing side?

I'd buy that, but this was a war that was going on since he was a little boy (River mentions the independents being surrounded in the flashback 11 years prior to Safe). This was, as we discover, the turning point in the war - its the Gettysburg, the Normandy Beaches, Battle of Hastings, Waterloo, Pearl Harbour etc etc. If you lived through it, you'd know it.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 12:57 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by SpikeSpiegel:
Firefly fans seem to be pretty smart. If you met someone whose whole life was changed by combat duty in Basrah in the first gulf war, or by the being on the losing side of the fighting in Yugoslavia's collapse, would you have it all straight in your head, or would you have to look up, say, who WAS the losing side?

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 1:02 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

hiccup. dang cortex got jammed

"I threw up on your bed"

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 1:18 PM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
hiccup. dang cortex got jammed

Wouldn't have happened if you had a dedicated source box.

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 1:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I'd call the starvation scene canon, because Zoe refers to it in War Stories.

At least I believe this is the case.

-frem
diefuxdie

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Monday, February 23, 2004 12:23 PM

JRO2A

The dvd Box-set seems to be MISSING scenes
that were in "FireFly" on fox tv. I don't under-
stand why any of these were taken out for dvd.
First off, I didn't record any epps. from tv so
I have only seen the aired epps. once. If I am
not mistaken in "Ariel" toward the end of the
epp. there were several effect scenes of Inara
piloting back her shuttle to Serenity. Theses
are missing from that epp. on Dvd. Also, at the
end of "War Stories" Kaylee tells the Capt. about
River shooting thoes thugs. She said something
like "and capt. she didn't even look". This was
a very IMPORTANT line and one of the very few
lines I remembered from the epp. On the dvd this
entire part is missing..... It don't make sense why it would be. Am I missing some-thing????

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Monday, February 23, 2004 12:28 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by jro2a:
She said something like "and capt. she didn't even look". This was a very IMPORTANT line and one of the very few lines I remembered from the epp. On the dvd this entire part is missing..... It don't make sense why it would be. Am I missing some-thing????

I could have sworn she does say that line - but stand to be corrected (I'm without the DVDs at the moment)

"I threw up on your bed"

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Monday, February 23, 2004 12:33 PM

JUSTDAVID

Quote:
Originally posted by jro2a:
She said something like "and capt. she didn't even look"

She says the line you're thinking of in "Objects In Space."

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