River vs Love? by OrangeHat

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

River vs Love?

POSTED BY: ORANGEHAT
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 07:16
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VIEWED: 18699
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Saturday, July 7, 2007 5:33 PM

*Long sigh* I really should not try to argue this because I’ve found that different people see and are open to different things, and that’s fine. I appreciate that your reasons for not seeing the pairing is based on personality confliction and not the tired age difference argument.

I think people who enjoy Rayne see the “why nots” and use those obstacle barriers as an exciting challenge to overcome in their fiction. There are plenty of ways Jayne and River do fit (both killers, loners, probably never had a real relationship or been in love, socially inept…) and the ways in which they do not, make the story that much more realistic and interesting. If we were all carbon copies of one another, how boring would that be? I think that’s why Joss likes to pair individuals who have different backgrounds, ideals and personalities.

I agree that the best and most convincing Rayne stories are the ones that leave the characters intact. For example, Jayne will always be rude and crude, violent ect… and River will probably always have moments of regression and do and say abnormal things.

I got the feeling from the series/movie that while Jayne may be pretty set in his ways, he wasn’t done growing as a person. He had finally met these people who were showing him that family, loyalty and doing the “right” thing, are things worth while. Just because we’re adults, doesn’t mean we don’t continue grow and learn from life until the day we die.

As for, “there is nothing to form a bond” I imagine living with someone day in and day out, fighting and working together, sharing meals and loss, would do the trick. There might even be some more lighthearted scenarios/situations for them to enjoy together.

Quote:
I see no reason for him to go heads over heals for her. (Nor do I think such a play would occur between ANY character in Firefly. It's not that type of 'verse. Closer to "real life".)

See, I don’t get that. Are you saying that people don’t fall heal over heels in RL? Was Kaylee not totally ga-ga over Simon throughout the whole season? Did Mal and Inara not suppress their feelings and angst over one another? I swear Zoe and Wash were madly in love, but then again, I might have been imagining it.

Jayne’s falling for someone might be an entirely different ride, but falling in love happens. It could happen to Jayne. We see him being quite mushy with Helen, brushing her hair, cuddling in bed, teaching her about guns ect… And he’s sweet about his mother. This all seems a contradiction to his normal gruff and insensitive guise. Because of this, Jayne acting in a way that seems incongruous, (like acting moony over a girl) actually works.

River’s more difficult to predetermine because we only had a small glimpse into her personality, and what we do see is not your average girl. That’s why I can’t see River with your average teenage boy. I can see her doing something more ‘off the wall’ like going and falling for the rogue mercenary because ‘left field’ feels much more consistent to her character and akin to the ‘verse.

Believe me, I can understand the not seeing it. I didn’t even consider Jayne/River until someone pointed me in the direction of a great Rayne fic. I think it would be hard to understand the fictional interpretation if you've never given it a try. But then again, some people who are completely closed off to an idea, will most likely never give it a fair fighting chance.

*************************************************
“Don’t belong. Dangerous, like you.”

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 8:28 AM

NBZ

heh, thanks for not jumping on me. :)

I had a longer reply but for some reason it did not go through. So, here is a shorter one because I think you "deserve" one.

I think you have given a good answer. "Why not?" is not how I think. Maybe that also explains why I dislike other stories written by the same authors... (a time or two I have predicted an author to eventually go down that line...)

I have given Rayne a chance in the past, but well... I cannot stand it. And some were good authors with a massive story (Kaynara).

I still disagree with your characterisation (both killers, loners, probably never had a real relationship or been in love, socially inept…), but well.. each to their own.

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 11:47 AM

STEAMER

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
I have a daughter with Asparger's Syndrome (high end autistm with normal to high intelligence that mainly manifests itself as low social skills) so I may have a small bit of insight into River.

I think that River, feeling everything, would have lots of problems once she's sane enough for the hormones to kick in. First. she'd be incapable of forming a traditional relationship for a long, long time. She's basically an infant in the relationship department.

It's interesting you should bring up those factors, because I also have Asperger's and a micron of the relationship experience a body ought to have at my age.

But that's why I suggested, much much earlier in the thread, that River might be able to hit it off with someone whom she knows is similar to her. Being a reader, she would recognise someone who understands that she's a bit different and that she's been shunned from almost all sides because of it. Of course it's a two-way contact, and it's still out in the black whether she could understand such an individual in return, but someone with the right personality and at least a slight understanding of River's condition? Especially an understanding that he might take upon himself to deepen? That's my 'why not'.

I'll leave off here because I'm tired of getting caught in the Rayne and just mentioning it makes me sick anyway. Keep flyin'.

Serenity has
Grace and class
She also has
A shiny....engine.
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 12:16 PM

ATHENON

I agree and disagree. I would like to see her at least show an interest in love. However, there is nobody on Serenity even remotely right for her. Also, she may be mentally unstable...but she has demonstrated her intelligence, cunning, has even demonstrated (fake?) mental stability.

Whether or not River is mentally stable enough for a relationship can go either way. Sometimes, she is...other times, she's not. I can name several scenes which support both sides.

Upon further thought and analysis, however, one may realize that: yes, she is mentally stable sometimes, and other times not...but a relationship is supposed to be a long-term thing. As such, I think it is possible, but it will likely be initiated by someone else AND probably during a period of saneness. Let's face it - it's possible to love someone (romantically!) if they're mentally unstable. River is capable of loving them back too, I think...at least during periods of saneness.

Of course, the mental thing WILL throw a monkey wrench into things - there is _no doubt whatsoever_ about that. However, I think if it was the right guy for her, and she was the right girl for him...they could possibly make it work.

Now, as for "Alright, it's possible...is it likely?" the short answer here is "NO!". It takes an extremely strong (mentally) person to be able to love someone like River (long-term that is). While these types of people exist, no doubt...they also have to be compatible with her. How many of these people exist? Like...5?

In short...I would like to see River obtain a love interest, and it is possible. It is, however, extremely unlikely that anything like that will happen - but still possible.

--
Athenon

"My food is problematic"

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Monday, July 9, 2007 7:53 PM

BLINDOUTLAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Athenon:
How many of these people exist? Like...5?

That is the great thing about a Joss Whedon verse, no matter how unlikely it is that the one person needed exists, they always show up

And also being a Joss Whedon story i think the completely wrong person would be used on several occations, because when it come to relationships, Joss loves to step on them i mean look at Zoe and Wash, so sad

So maybe the wrong guy can be used

or Mr Right

but i the end someone is going to be really hurt. Unless it is true love, in which one of them dies. Hopefully not River

----------------
That was when i found out my pants were on fire, and that's my Courageous story.

[url] http://www.myspace.com/blindoutlaw [/url]

- Jimmy the Blindoutlaw

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:19 PM

WYTCHCROFT

I found this to be a very interesting thread... in fact it was one of two threads that directly made me go and write SOLACE for the site.

so again, this site kicks ass, you all rule!

time is the bottle from which we drink the liquor of our lives.

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 11:55 AM

MOBBEX

Quote:
...in fact it was one of two threads that directly made me go and write SOLACE for the site.

Realy? What's the other one

Everything in here gleams...

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 12:55 PM

WYTCHCROFT

hi, the other thread that sparked SOLACE was 'Serenity's Sisters' i had some thoughts but the thread pushed me in a whole new direction.

ALL my fics here have been directly inspired by this site (either posts, messages or blogs)! Check out threads such as 'What's up with Inara', and 'Book'. Currently i am spinning from the shiny that is 'Alliance - destruction or downfall' which, like this thread, is long and very very interesting.

keep running from them Reavers!

make somebody a browncoat today - don't drive no/one away

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Sunday, August 26, 2007 11:37 AM

RIVERFLAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Lexan:
I agree that River does have a personality... and a very interesting personality at that. I just don't think this personality is being communicated through River’s own experiences and inclinations. Her personality sort of forces its way through what she says and implies, which is mostly about other people and issues that have nothing to do with her ( apart from the fact she knows about them). I would have liked to see her explain and understand herself more. River’s likes, dislikes, leanings, opinions and belief were always somewhat indistinct. She never once (unless I’m wrong?) said a sentence that started with ‘I feel’ or ‘I believe’ which addressed particular subject matters…

About River’s tricking Badger in Shindig… she wasn’t endangering the crew at all. You’ll notice that, at the very moment Jayne says ‘What we need is a diversion’ River appears instantaneously. So I think she was really trying to do them a favour…

When she slashed Jayne with the knife in Ariel, I believe it was because she wanted to both communicate to the crew about blue sun (which for some reason she can’t coherently) and indicate what Jayne was planning on doing (assuming Jayne was already thinking of selling Simon and River to the feds)…

I think you've got it down perfectly. What I can add is that I don't think River will get into a relationship. There's enough romance/sexuality being done today to make it into the norm, and we all know Joss isn't about trying to be normal.

Also, about that deleted scene w/ Saffron, I think it might be because she want to give something to Simon as thanks for saving her, and gets the idea from Saffron (who is very relaxed about marrying people, as you can tell). That's just a guess, though, and it's probably wrong.

River: "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems."

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Monday, August 27, 2007 10:44 AM

EMMAZULE

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Yeah, so I don't think she was just playing or being ironic in that CSI scene with Simon. She really is that disconnected.

*snerk!* I'm sorry, I just don't see it. I thought the same at first, I was like "What the hell!?"... but then she pulled that stunt with the pillow: "We have to get married now. I'm in the family way." cue waaaaay too "innocent", coy look. She's totally pulling one over on him, teasing him, flustering him on purpose because she thinks it's funny (which, of course, it is because Simon's not quite quick enough on the uptake to realize she's teasing him).

It's not the first time we've seen her put on over on someone - "Also, I can kill you with my brain", remember? Or the way she treated Badger, even, to a lesser extent. Hell, even the "I'm not in the ship. I am the ship" thing she pulled on Early. How can you forget the way she giggled when Early finally figured it out and then teased him about all the "interesting" things in his ship? Not to mention the whole "Jayne is a girl's name" jab.

She does have a sense of humor, folks, and she's often seen using it to poke fun or play jokes on people. Not as often as the crazy-rants, obviously, but it does happen (though come to think about it, except for Simon, I can't think of any cases where she did this to someone she likes... but then again, Simon does say about her that "She could be such a brat, too...", which sort of implied to me that she occasionally does tease him, not all that surprising given that they're siblings).

Now, the scene in Safe where she doesn't seem to realize Simon's being kidnapped, that's a different story. She seems very out of it there. Actually, through most of that episode, really. Seems to have no idea what's weird about being able to read Ruby's mind, seems to have no idea how much trouble she's asking for when she brings up how the whatchamallit, Patron? of the town basically made sure the last one died so he could have the post, and she seems confused and terrified when she's being burned at the stake because of those things. Safe was apparently not a depiction of one of her better days. :P

In Our Mrs. Reynolds, though, she seems fairly lucid, what little we get to see of her - she even calls YoSaffBridge a thief, remember? ;) (Of course, no one realizes what she really means by this, heh)

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Monday, August 27, 2007 8:03 PM

MOBBEX

Don't make faces

You know, I believe you might be right! Then again, I think we all agree that River's actions and speech are just about as opened to interpretation as they make them. That being so, a consensus about why she behaves the way she does can never realy be reached.

So, River and love?

I agree that the River we saw throughout the Series and the BDM was too scattered to deal with it. However, I think there is hope. Hey, she's already gotten significantly better since Simon broke her out, to the point where Mal could consider to take her out on a job. He would not have done this, desperate as he was, if he hadn't thought her stable enough. Whether it is due to Simon's careful monitoring or a natural healing process (don't pull a "brains don't grow back" on me, I'm talking about healing from trauma), she has gathered enough control over herself to live like a person. And I tend to disregard the "she feels everything, she can't not" diagnosis to an extent, as it is quite evident, by the end of the BDM, that she CAN put a damp on it if need be. She's done it, she can do it again. It might be a steep learning curve, but she has the time and she sure as hell has the will. Now, even though Miranda broadwave obviously shed a weight of her shoulders ("I'm all right, I'm all right!"), she will never be the girl next door. She will have the occasionnal break down (then again who hasn't?) and quite possibly the bouts of cryptic speech, but she is healing, and in time she should be just about okay.

Now, on to love. Given her baggage, she hasn't been given the luxury to ponder about love much. But she is young, and she is a genuine (though emotionaly unbalanced) super genius. She has experienced love to an extent ; Love from her brother, love for her home, love for/from her family, etc. Sure, none of these involves romantic love, still, she is familiar with affection, and that's a start. Given that, and her incredible cognitive potential, I think she can learn to love. After all, she is a fascinating person, all it takes is an open mind. It would definitely require time, years, for her to even feel the need to have someone in her life, but she would get there.

Bottom line: Years post-BDM, if she hangs with the right crew, she just might stumble upon a fitting person. A fairy tale? Not so much. A man far enough on the cranky side to connect with her would obviously have a few issues of his own. Whether or not such a relationship would last is up in the air. Nevertheless, I will always root for her to get better, and find whatever happiness she can. Quotes Mal: "Now I ain't saying there is much of it to be had, but on the off chance there is, she, among all the people in this gorram 'Verse, deserves a little of it."

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:36 AM

CRYSTALKEI

Okay, so it's been said i think once or twice on this thread, but let me repeat it: River can have a relationship. Trust me, I've dated some crazies in my time. (There aren't relationship police out there to stop them, there should be.) River is a growing person, crazy or not, she's got feelings that since the BDM she can actually sort thru a few of her own at a more leisurely pace, get to know who she is. So, yeah, I write Rayne, but i don't think it's canon or anything. I just think it's fun. i mentioned this in a post of my own... spike didn't come into S2 of buffy with the plan to become obsessed with buffy, try to rape her in S6 and then go get a soul for her. It took development, LOTS of it! River can have a relationship in the future, how else will she learn? the rest of us have crappy, crazy, funky relationships, why wouldn't she? Even crazy people have feelings.

It doesn't have to be with Jayne, or Mal, not like they are the only people in the 'verse. But I see why the fic comes up, they are the men on the ship with her. Proximity does funny things to hormones.

let me sum up:
i heart rayne, but i don't think it's canon

river most certainly can have a relationship because all sorts of other crazies do

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 7:16 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by EmmaZule:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Yeah, so I don't think she was just playing or being ironic in that CSI scene with Simon. She really is that disconnected.
*snerk!* I'm sorry, I just don't see it.

Hmm. Interesting. I admit, I never even imagined that she was aware and playing a joke. I'll watch it again. Gotta say though, it'd take a lot to convince she was really just playing.

Quote:
It's not the first time we've seen her put on over on someone - "Also, I can kill you with my brain", remember?

Um... but who's to say she was kidding? Maybe she believed it. She's seen herself do some violence (River Tam Sessions... she killed Joss!) and she knows her brain is weird. Maybe she thinks she can kill with her brain.

I'm not disagreeing that she has a sense of humor and she's a brat, but I'm not convinced that she was aware of what she was doing in all the scenes you bring up. Certainly, by OiS she was together enough to form a plan and mess with Early, but I don't think every detail of her behavior was planned out. I think she giggled because she was amused. I think she talked about his mother because she was having a very real reaction to what she saw on his ship.

Quote:
In Our Mrs. Reynolds, though, she seems fairly lucid, what little we get to see of her - she even calls YoSaffBridge a thief, remember?

River calling YSB a thief doesn't imply lucidity. She's voicing the things she senses, which happen to be true things, but that's still her living in her own mental world.

It's the same thing with the canned food - I'm sure she's rattling off a truth about the bad stuff the Blue Sun Corp put in there, but that doesn't mean she's sane and aware while she says it all.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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