Alliance destruction-without or within? by reginaroadie

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Alliance destruction-without or within?

POSTED BY: REGINAROADIE
UPDATED: Saturday, August 18, 2007 18:28
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Saturday, May 26, 2007 8:58 PM

Hey All

Was going through some of the past threads and discovered a lot of speculation threads in the past. That got me thinking about something that lends itself to different projections of what would have happened on the show if it had lasted 7 or so years like BUFFY.

Here's the thing I'm wondering. As well all know, The Alliance is something of a totalitarian regime. Whether it's a horrible Nazi Germany or Communist Russia or Orwell's 1984, or just a slightly oppressive regime, like Thatcher's Britain or the current Bush administration is up for debate. But what I'm interested in discussing, is the Alliance's downfall.

Now, if FIREFLY had lasted for years and years, Joss probably would have had the final or second last season be about the destruction of The Alliance. He hinted at the end of the BDM that the wave about the Reavers that was broadcast to everyone in the Cortex has done some damage to The Alliance. It's still up in the air if it's irreparable, if it's the beginning of the end or jsut something that good PR can fix.

My question is, how would The Alliance fall? Would it be a second civil war that basically translates to Joss' season long version of RETURN OF THE JEDI, complete with Mal piloting Serenity into a Death Star-like reactor and going kamakazi on it, thus blowing up the thing and destroying The Alliance one and for all as Gabriel picks up The Emperor and throws him down a pit, ala Darth Vader? Or would it just be sort of like an out of the blue revelation, like at the end of Season 4 of ANGEL where after killing Jasmine, Lilah just shows up and says Wolfram and Hart is all yours.

I think that as cool as it would be to see Joss' version of JEDI, I think the latter would not only be more interesting, but actually more realistic. I took a Sociology class a few years ago and learnt that most of the time, when it comes to opressive regimes, that it's not really a revolution that topples it, (although that does happen from time to time) but mostly a political rot that happens from the inside that topples it completely. You know that saying "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Well, I think that overtime, the internal political machine would have just broken down overtime and bring it's own destruction.

I think that overtime, The Alliance would have just devolved and collapsed, thus making a second civil war unnecessary.

Have any of you seen that German movie DOWNFALL? It's this powerful film about the last days of the Nazi regime during WW2 and how the country was basically coming apart at the seams as the Allied forces were closing in on Berlin and Hitler was just going mad and that even the higher Nazi officials knew that this was the end of the line. And you get the sense that even if the Nazi's had won the war and all that, that eventually it would have collapsed under it's own weight, like Communist Russia.

I think it would be cool of the season 6 finale ends with the crew getting a wave that the Alliance is over. And that the season 7 premiere doesn't even have any of the cast. It would follow the structure of DOWNFALL and be called "A Day in the Life" (after the Beatles song), and it would follow like a government clerk or a low level government employee who works in Londinium or Shinon who goes to work like any other day, but it would be the day that the Parlaiment and the economy comes crashing down. Like it would begin with some strange incidents and some hushed chatter around the watercooler, but during the day the memos and announcements would escalate in tension, until at about 3 PM, the entire thing comes apart. Everyone's laid off and have to clear their desks in half an hour and just walk outside to see a flurry of papers coming down like snow. And there'd be some minor looting and action and all that, but it would be like the day the Enron employees got laid off. Just sort of a surreal "what just happened?" moment followed by the realization that the Alliance is no more. And the rest of the final season is the crew, representing the rest of the Verse now, adapting to this brand new world where the biggest enemy is now gone, so what do you do now?

So what do you think would have happened? The RETURN OF THE JEDI scenario, or the DOWNFALL scenario?

**************************************************
"Have you ever fired two guns whilst jumping through the air?"
"No."
"Have you ever fired ONE gun whilst jumping through the air?"

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Saturday, May 26, 2007 9:11 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

As much as I believe America is as close to 1984/Brave New World as any country has ever been (With the possible exception of the UK today), and as much as I'd love to be part of a "Jedi" type revolution in my lifetime, I do belive that the Alliance most likely will crumble from within. They're like an overripe fruit that's ready to fall off the vine. I'm just hoping that it isn't China that's here to pick up the pieces and that we haven't become so weak as a people that we would allow China to just roll over us.....

Oh wait.... you were talking about Firefly/Serenity, weren't you?

My bad....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, May 26, 2007 9:48 PM

BLINDOUTLAW

I think the alliance's downfall will be kinda like Rome's.

After the miranda broadwave the outter colonies overthrow their garrisons and mass mutinies and desertions occur within the ranks of the alliance armies weakening their power and hold of the colonies.

with the colonies out of their control the alliance will only have control over the central planets, but the loss of resources from the colonies have caused economic collapse and the allaince falls soon after.

----------------
That was when i found out my pants were on fire, and that's my Courageous story.

- Jimmy the Blindoutlaw

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Monday, May 28, 2007 6:20 PM

ARIANE

I actually don't believe that the Alliance will topple at all. We get a very deeply biased perspective on it, and on government in general, from Serenity's crew, but if you look past this basic distaste you can see that the Alliance isn't quite at the level of Nazi Germany. Joss has pointed out more than once that it is basically a force for order and civilization that has overreached itself. Most of its sins come from an inability to see people as people--a symptom, I believe, of being so detached from those whom they are attempting to govern.

Nevertheless, the Core worlds are visibly less barbaric than the Rim. I seriously doubt that anyone burns schizophrenic girls as witches on Londinium. It's unlikely that anyone trades women in lieu of money on Sihnon. People have a much better shot at life and liberty on the Core than the Rim, as far as we've seen. In fact, I can see the Core having all kinds of fabulous things like universal healthcare and a top-notch public school system. The price for all this, of course, is that the government has oodles of control over the basic fabric of people's lives. But many people will pay that price and never feel oppressed for a second.

No, I think the Alliance is here to stay. At most the Miranda broadwave will result in a lot of impeachments and some serious reforms. Maybe some tenacious journalists will turn up more dirt, and a restructuring of the bureaucracy will occur. But the Alliance can't fall at this point, because it's made damn sure that it is *all there is.* There is no other state in the 'verse to step in, no other political entity to challenge the Alliance or to take control if it disintegrates. There's an outside chance that the Rim and border worlds could tear themselves loose from a weakened Alliance and govern themselves, but it's unlikely given that the Rim has probably been crippled for generations by the loss of manpower and resources during the war.

Moreover, I don't think Joss wanted to go there. Mal and Zoe and the Browncoats lost their war, and now they have to live with it. The fact that they are such geopolitical losers is part of what makes them special. People make shows about winners all the time. Not so much with the Other Sort.

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Monday, May 28, 2007 6:30 PM

PIRATECAT

Looked like alot of people liked the alliance. Alot of comfies. It would come from within like USSR. The Core planets would have to rebel. First the Blues Sun Corporation has to hit the skids. I think the browncoats would win the aftermath of war like the rebs did against the federal goverment.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 2:59 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

There is the question of economy that has to be considered. A regime can be very oppressive, and yet still successful, if the alternative is worse. The Roman Empire and Republic were extremely oppressive by today’s standards, but in the classical period the alternative was a subsistent life under the dominion of revolving warlords. So the Romans might have been oppressive, but they also provided a degree of civilization that was orders of magnitude better then the alternative. One of the things that the Romans did was to export their civilization to all parts of their territory. They build roads connecting cities, forts, walls, theaters and amphitheaters, ports, insulae, baths temples and villas. You could travel to the furthest extent of the Roman Empire that had never known anything but crude defenses and wood huts and find there Roman cities. Even briefly held provinces in Germania show the presents of Romans cities. And this is what allowed Rome to whether the civil wars and violent organized riots, and why neither the Western nor the Eastern Roman collapsed from the inside. They both fell as a result of external forces. (Although internal forces played a major roll - Christianity, Division of the Empire)

By contrast, the Soviet Union, another empire that like the Romans was an unmatched military power with extensive territory, fell from the inside due to economic failure. The Soviets were Marxist, who believe in a communist agrarian utopia, and the Soviet Empire was largely underdeveloped. What they didn’t understand, that the Romans did, was that there is no such thing as an agrarian utopia in a modern context. Agrarian lifestyles are at best very meager and usually hard and difficult, not really what most people think of utopia, and in order to make the communist model work, the Soviets had to expend an enormous amount to subsidize it. There was no way they could keep up with the vibrant capitalist economies of West. When their economy began collapse, they could not maintain the illusion of that the communist model was working or had ever worked. As a result, the Russian people began to realize that there were alternatives, and so the Soviet Empire collapsed from within. (Although external forces did help - Reagan, Pope John Paul)

So which one is the Alliance?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 3:33 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

So which one is the Alliance?

Considering the apparent wealth within the Core, I'd venture to guess... they're more like the Romans?

After all, they may struggle with the outside "rebel" rim planets, but we've had no indication that there is much oppression to keep down dissatisfaction in the actual Core.

In places like Persephone, people admire the sophistication of the Core, as well, importing their culture, such as Companions. (I'm guessing here that Persephone is a recently wealthy place, considering the amount still backward behavior going on there and the naked admiration of Inara's client in the pilot eppy.)

It doesn't look like their economic model is failing. More like, they are failing at integrating the Rim at an acceptable speed. ("Everybody can be interfered with and ignored equally.")

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:06 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Considering the apparent wealth within the Core, I'd venture to guess... they're more like the Romans?

I don’t really know. Are the rim planets part of the Alliance? If so to be like the Roman model, the Alliance should pump some wealth down there to keep the local ruling clans happy. I don’t remember seeing a lot of Alliance style cities in the Rim planets. Unless the magistrates, like those in Jayne’s Town, are representative of that, which actually could be the case, since ruling magistrates were a common issue.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:21 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

I don’t really know. Are the rim planets part of the Alliance? If so to be like the Roman model, the Alliance should pump some wealth down there to keep the local ruling clans happy. I don’t remember seeing a lot of Alliance style cities in the Rim planets. Unless the magistrates, like those in Jayne’s Town, are representative of that, which actually could be the case, since ruling magistrates were a common issue.

Well, the war is just six years ago, not really a huge amount of time to have fixed up the majority of rim planets.

If we're to assume that government-run Alliance influence on the rim planets was minimal before the war, even more minimal (and less constructive) during the war, the current conditions don't necessary reflect on their abilíty of willingness to pump money into the rim. The process has likely just started.

We do know they are shipping about bunches of federal marshals on trains in places like Paradiso, so enforcing order might still be a priority.

Also, we haven't really seen much of the more civilized places, after all, due to our POV's need to stay away from heavy Alliance presence.

ETA:

Of course, we don't know to what extend the Alliance is changing existing forms of government on the Rim planets to comply with the Alliance system. There's, supposedly, a king of Londinium (might just be a figure of speech) but there is also an interplanetary parliament, so some element of democracy is likely in there. It might be a varied mix. But I doubt the Alliance would be as supported if all the lofty talk of bringing civilization was just that.

Maybe people like Higgins, on tiny-tiny moons like Canton, currently escape Alliance scrutiny because it's easy to let them be while Big Things are taken care of, as long as they profess loyalty to the Alliance. Long-term plans might include something else.

ETA - again, because I'm totally lame:

Persephone, again, might be an example for exactly what you mention - money being pumped into the ruling class to keep them happy. Atherton certainly isn't anti-Alliance, but he's also not a poster-child for civilization. He's much less refined than Simon.
The rich are clearly very rich on Persephone, but the Eavesdown Docks are a far cry from the port in Capital City. There's the Rim-like underbelly.

Persephone might be that typical Roman-friendly province.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:03 PM

WYTCHCROFT

Ok... (deep breath) so this is another FANTASTIC thread (keep em active people, don't let em go to archive hell!).

it's got my mind moving in ways that are going to take quite some time to resolve.

here are a few inititial scattered thoughts:
"I think that overtime, The Alliance would have just devolved and collapsed, thus making a second civil war unnecessary." well, um, sometimes that kind of collapse leads exactly to civil war... also of course, money-mafia sorts of stuff. (yes, i think you WILL find sex traffic in the alliance and not just on the rim - hell, it goes on down my street! and we ARE the alliance)

Rome didn't fall in a day - it might seem so but the process was complex and took hudreds of years and resulted in many interesting implosions (pulling back from the rim) and schisms - the roman empire was always splitting into warring factions - the same happened later with the church (that whole two pope thing) leading nicely to:

Return of the Jedi - Joss would (i fervently hope) skewer this is in one vital regard: Ok, you might well have Serenity III Rise of the Shepherds but would these quasi mystical religious zealot warriors be a GOOD THING? one to explore.

last two thoughts:
1) Are Reavers the new Vikings?

2) Does anyone else feel that Simon broke River out when she was good and ready??? He just happened to take enough time finding a way to free her that she got all kill-majored while she waited? And i know we all treat him nice (i'm disgustingly kind to him in my fics) but the guy is plain SINISTER - check his clothing and image in the pilot. And he manipulates Kaylee something cruel. + If you've read FRAY then y'know how sinister sibling bonds can get... Such a happy co.incidience them finding Serenity - River's signal getting active and them just happeningto have a ship and a bunch of BDH's to take them to Miranda, smack the Reavers, damage the Reavers and leave things open for..

[Question: Are there any others like River?

wait for it -

Serenity III: Rise of the Underground???
a nattily attired bunch of genetically engineered superiors? Oh that'd make for a happy 'verse!
Oh - wait there's just one person who can stop them - she who betrayed into the programme by her own brother... etc - y'see where i'm going with this...

To Recap: Rome collapses inwardly leading to a massive free for alll between Shepherds, Mafia, Reavers and NextGenners... but the good and evil lines are blurred and it takes enoughtime that you can squueze as many episodes of F.F. in there as you want!.

-phew!-
thank you and good night!

Make someone a browncoat today, don't drive nobody away.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:26 PM

WYTCHCROFT

don't sue me if i just spoiled the arc for Buffy 8 and 9...!

make someone a browncoat today - don't drive no/one away.

keep a good thread active!

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:33 PM

ZONER

Quote:
but the good and evil lines are blurred and it takes enoughtime that you can squeeze as many episodes of F.F. in there as you want!.

.

so it could still feel like FireFly then?

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:46 PM

WYTCHCROFT

In theory! i can imagine a show like S7 Buffy (see Reginroadie's top post here) - trad episodes next to something else entirely...

if we keep this threads notion of movies well - i guess they would be epic one off - maybe not so firefly in vibe... hmmm - darn, not sure i'd like that so much... i like epic in bite sized chunks- i like to keeps things human...

"Most "skiffy" series, from Star Trek to Babylon 5, tend to be stately, grandiose affairs, dealing with galaxy-shaking matters and led by noble, heroic figures chock full of honor and high ideals—in the words of Mozart in Amadeus, "People so lofty, you'd think they shit marble!" Firefly, by design, flies in the face of that tradition, giving us characters who aren't so much heroes as survivors. They're not seeking out new worlds, or saving the galaxy from alien hordes. " dvd verdict.com
i gotta say i agree completely with this.
serenity is pretty PDEpic though and i LOVE Serenity as much as F.F. - ah, i dunno...

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:44 PM

STAMPEDE

Didn't Whedon describe the Alliance as the United States immediately post-WW2? I'll see if I can dredge up the quote, but he says something like that the Alliance does a lot of good work too.

As has been said, they don't burn people as witches on Londinium, Sihnon doesn't take women in lieu of money... you'll notice Ariel has multiple paramedic units, for example. The thing is, we don't see that because that's not what the story is focused on. It is worth noting, however, that Whedon didn't make a totally one-dimensional Evil Empire, so the 1984 analogy is kind of off.

I think that, since the capital world was settled by Americans, and it was given a Roman name (for London) that the Alliance is to reflect one of the more "benign" Imperial powers. As such, I believe what will bring down the Alliance's universal control (though I don't believe the government itself with dissolve completely, but just retract) is going to be somewhat similar to the dissolution of the British Empire.

I could see it very well doing a retraction in to the Core and only worrying about Londinium, Sihnon, Osiris, Ariel, Bernadette and Carthage. You see that move a lot in sci-fi (the Terran Alliance in the BattleTech universe did likewise, for instance). It would likely be a response to a development of strong nationalism, a development of infrastructure, and the rise of leaders in the Border and Rim areas. Likely you would probably see the Rim rise up and after making some efforts to put it down, the Parliament would shoot them all the bird and pull everything out, letting them try and fix all their problems on their own.

I would imagine, much like several former British holdings, many of the Border worlds would belong to the equivalent of the Commonwealth, who would do things their own way but pay lip service to the King of Londinium.

There's two kinds of people in this world: those with loaded guns, and those who dig.
Now DIG.

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Friday, August 17, 2007 12:58 PM

ZONER

vump!

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 4:53 AM

DONCOAT

Have you ever heard the term "water empire" or "hydraulic civilization"? It refers to a theory about many of the early human empires (with the exception of western Europe) that maintained their rule by controlling the water supply (most critically for irrigation).

It's said that no such empire ever fell from within. Regimes change, but the new boss is basically the same as the old boss. True revolution is impossible because those in power can snuff out any insurrection by cutting off the water supply.

If we apply this principle to th'Alliance, we have to answer two questions.

1) Does the Aliance maintain control through manipulation of scarce resources? I'm thinking that in the Rim area, it does. Planets that are in the "frontier" stage would almost always need supplies from the outside to survive. That makes it hard to break out of the Alliance trap. If we accept this, and the "water empire" rule about no internal revolution is valid, then the Alliance must fall from without (or not at all). So...

2) Is there anything in the 'verse that can be considered "outside" the empire? It would seem not, at least since the Independence war was lost. But there is one exception which has been mentioned before: the Reavers. If they still exist after the battle of Mr. Universe's Planetoid, they remain outside Alliance control. Perhaps they are the Goths and Vandals who will sack Rome... er, Sihnon and Londinium.

One fly in the ointment: if somehow the population of a water empire finds another means to get their water (other than the government), all bets are off. In the 'verse, this means some way for the Rim planets to get vital supplies other than through the Alliance / Blue Sun. And just look at what our Big Damn Heroes do for a living...

Maybe Mal and Co., and others like them, are the true threat to Alliance domination.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 6:28 PM

WYTCHCROFT

interesting... some of what you say helps clarify some ideas... ta!

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