Problems with Simon's story? by cait

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Problems with Simon's story?

POSTED BY: CAIT
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 13:32
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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 7:59 PM

This has probably been discussed already but..

In the first ep, Simon is talking about how he got River away from the alliance..

"ZOE
How did you do it?

SIMON
Money. And, and luck. For two years,
I couldn't get near her. Then I was
contacted by some men, some underground
movement. They-they said she was
in danger, that-that the government was...
playing with her brain. If I funded
them they could sneak her out in cryo.
Get her to Persephone, and from there,
I could take her... wherever. "

...But in the movie it showed him IN the room with River.. and he threw that thing or whatever and the guys passed out.. or whatever XD and they basically ran out.. It wasnt anyone simon 'hired' or anything.. was it?

and in the movie she like.. walked out and wasnt in cryo or anything.. hmmmm

any thoughts? am I missing something?

~Cait

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:33 PM

ADAMWANKENOBI

The novelization reveals that after escaping with River into the ship of his "contacts", Simon has her put into cryo in order to basically keep her safe and undetected during the trip to Persephone.

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:20 PM

SNEAKER98

I remember a troll on the old universal boards complaining that there was a contradiction, when there really isn't.

He never said he wasn't involved in the rescue plan, we just assumed from his mannerism.

Besides, it was never shown on-screen in the tv show. We just heard a vague story told to the crew. So, it's not exactly a Solo-Shot-First situation by any means ;)

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:51 PM

SPACEANJL

Two-fold issue here.

Simon never claims he wasn't there if you take the words literally. Someone got him the uniform, the clearance and the knockout bomb. Plus, there was a ship waiting at the top of the airshaft for him.

On a practical RL level, I think Joss was going to introduce us to an underground movement at some point, but was forced to fold things up tight in the movie. Mr Universe has always struck me as far too much of McGuffin, coming out of nowhere. I think he would have appeared in the series at some point, as a contact.

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:01 AM

THEHEROOFWILLIAMTOWN

Yeah i think that's just a solution for the movie to have the uninitiated understand whats going on.

However it did annoy me a little so i just substituted my own explanation.

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:06 AM

CAIT

Ah.. sorry im not trolling.. i was just wondering. :x :3

I didn't know there was a novel o.o; i might have go pick that up..

Thanks! ^^

~Cait

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:52 AM

THEONETRUEBIX

A couple of points.

First, the novel is not considered canon.

Second, Joss said outright at the time of the movie's release that when writing the script he simply up and contradicted what Simon said in the series, because depicting other random people rescuing River and then never seeing them again didn't make much sense and wasn't particularly compelling.

Third, he did however also say that h had come to adopt the "fan wank" which said that in the series Simon simply wasn't telling the crew the entire truth, but he hadn't yet figured out or decided why.

So, the reality is that when written, the movie simply and knowingly contradicted Simon's story in the series.

It's just that the later reality is that Joss decided after the fact to land on the "Simon kind of lied in the series" idea.

-----

"I beat up a couple of false b!Xes earlier."
-- Joss, 28 June 2007

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:24 AM

CAIT

Ohhhh.. I never thought of it that way..

Prolly if Mal + the others knew HE Was the one that went and got her.. 'stole her from the govt' or whatever.. they might have looked at him differently..

thanks! ^^

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 4:00 PM

SNEAKER98

"Ah.. sorry im not trolling.. i was just wondering. :x :3"
I know ;) I'm just saying, there was one who constantly bickered about this issue.

I figured why Joss did it, and I know it went against what his original timeline/story, as the creator, but I'm also saying there is no real contradiction to worry about. It wasn't shown on screen; only told as a vague story.

Works for me.

Truth be told, I didn't like Mr. Universe. Too much of a plot device. He really needed more of an introduction than "I think we need to call Mr. Universe"

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 4:08 PM

ADAMWANKENOBI

Quote:
Originally posted by theonetruebix:
First, the novel is not considered canon.

But it does give a very logical explanation that smooths out a seeming contradiction. And since Joss hasn't commented further, it's the only official explanation we have.

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 4:36 PM

THEONETRUEBIX

It might be the only explanation we have, but it's not an "official" explanation. It's speculation.

-----

"I beat up a couple of false b!Xes earlier."
-- Joss, 28 June 2007

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:35 PM

ADAMWANKENOBI

Quote:
but it's not an "official" explanation.

I meant from Universal.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 7:11 AM

RIVERFLAN

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:

Truth be told, I didn't like Mr. Universe. Too much of a plot device. He really needed more of an introduction than "I think we need to call Mr. Universe"

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

Yeah, I think he would have been known later in the Firefly episodes, except bloody gorram

canceled the show!

sums up my feeling bout that.

"The cartrage fell out of my gun" a.k.a. I went off topic. Yeah, I think Mr. Universe would have been a contact in the series.

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 12:08 PM

INPEDENDANTLISSA

OK here is another problem with the whole story that really bugs me. In Objects in space where they are all talking in the dining area. Mal said he thinks River is a reader. Book agrees with him and Simon just sits there looking stunned like he doesn't believe it however in the movie when Simon rescues River the guy tells him that River can read minds. Does that make sense to anyone else?

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 12:11 PM

RIVERFLAN

No, it doesn't. I don't know how to explain it.

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 12:25 PM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by InpedendantLissa:
OK here is another problem with the whole story that really bugs me. In Objects in space where they are all talking in the dining area. Mal said he thinks River is a reader. Book agrees with him and Simon just sits there looking stunned like he doesn't believe it however in the movie when Simon rescues River the guy tells him that River can read minds. Does that make sense to anyone else?

i think he is stunned at Mal's immediate and non-judgemental response "she's a reader" - hoping they all just thought she was crazy - and forgetting the crew are more than dumb hicks. Simon never reads Mal right, don't forget.

make someone a browncoat today - don't drive nobody away

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 1:14 PM

NBZ

There is disbelief in his face. Question is what at.

We know that in Safe, River was to be burned at the stake for what she could do. What would this crew do? He even challenged Kaylee when she almost suggested that River was not a person.

At that point he is also not sure if they will be welcome any longer on the ship.

In the original remit did Simon know? I think he did. (The other explanation is that this was one of the things changed to accommodate the BDM)

For that matter, I am also convinced that Mal knew she was a reader in Safe.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 1:21 PM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:

For that matter, I am also convinced that Mal knew she was a reader in Safe.

me too.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 1:34 PM

MOBBEX

You are better at dying

Hmmm... based on what?

Back on topic: For what it's worth, I, too, believe that Simon deliberatly kept intel about River's condition to himself. That tends to check out with his protectiveness and trust issues. Which, by the way, are perfectly justified in this matter.

TAM: Nickname for Scottish/Gaelic Tomas, meaning, "twin"

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 2:00 PM

NBZ

Interesting sig there Mobbex. I did not know that. It leaves interesting possibilities if that is how Joss had planned it.

I would base it on the "They forgot to be cows" bit. and also "She is OUR witch, so cut her the hell down".

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 4:08 PM

CBSTEVE

I've read all the threads to this and here is my, I hope, logical answer. The fact is, they were making a TV show with different writers on each script. While there must have been some supervison from Whedon and other producers, sometimes things get missed, as we all know from our own fanfic writings. And Whedon was running two other shows at the same time so the man was quite busy. So mistakes in the story line happened. If you just look at the Simon/Kaylee subplot you can see them going up and down with no real explanations between episodes. Like what happened to them between Heart of Gold and Objects in Space? Hmmmm. As for Simon being the one who rescues River, the idea that he never told the crew because he didn't quite trust them yet sits well with me. Whedon's explanation about why he did it in the movie makes perfect sense also, from a two-hour movie point of view. Did the crew know River was a reader earlier on? It seems that Safe showed us she clearly was, that Simon saw it and that Mal even called her "our witch" which might have been non-related. Simon certainly must have known she was a reader after the events in Safe. Jayne even calls her a "mind reading genius" in the Message. Again, I fault the lack of clear supervison in the writing process where these little discrepancies cropped up and were missed at the time of production.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 4:22 PM

NBZ

The Message was initially set after OiS. It was the last episode filmed. That is why Jayne makes that remark.

In the original airings, Heart of Gold, Trash and The Message would have been aired after Objects in Space.

When the show got cancelled, this was moved to the end to give a sort of "conclusion".

There will always be discrepancies. Some easily explained, others not so.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 4:32 PM

TDBROWN

Quote:
Originally posted by InpedendantLissa:
OK here is another problem with the whole story that really bugs me. In Objects in space where they are all talking in the dining area. Mal said he thinks River is a reader. Book agrees with him and Simon just sits there looking stunned like he doesn't believe it however in the movie when Simon rescues River the guy tells him that River can read minds. Does that make sense to anyone else?

It makes sense, if you consider that Simon has been slightly deceptive (i.e., protective) of River all along. He doesn't go into full detail about River's rescue, and tries to gloss over any reference to her being psychic. A big example of the latter would be when River "reads" the girl Ruby in Safe and fumbles with an explanation for it to Dora Lee.

When Mal suggests that River is psychic Simon stumbles for an explanation, because he doesn't want to admit it to the crew. Also, he tells the crew in Ariel that he wants to find out what the Alliance did to River, when we know from the film that he already knows What they did... but not How, or to what extent. Getting River into the Holo Imager helped him determine a course of treatment.

The end result plays right into the tone of the film. There is increased tension between Mal and Simon. Three good reasons for that would be:

Mal's stress over other issues (Book and Inara being gone, bits falling off the ship, et al.);

Mal guessing that Simon has been less than forthcoming;

And Simon resenting that Mal is doing exactly what he feared would happen if River's abilities were exposed.

***********

Sure, It's conjecture on my part, but it makes a lot of sense. Joss seems to be leaning that way now, so... what the heck.

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 5:23 PM

CBSTEVE

I disagree that Heart of Gold would have been after Objects in Space. In Heart of Gold, Inara decides to leave Serenity. In Objects in Space, she and Mal talk about when she's leaving and about telling the rest of the crew. Now Fox may have wanted to air them that way, but they wouldn't have made sense.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 6:29 PM

MOBBEX

You are better at dying
Hmmm... okay

I don't buy it, but I see your point.

I'm not going to elaborate on the why, though, as that would mean taking yet another prolonged trip off topic, which I did just about off lately

(genuine euphemism, I think I'm starting to get a rep

). Still, I think that deserves a fair argument. At which point does the crew become aware of River's habilities? Anybody wants to post a thread?

TAM: Nickname for Scottish/Gaelic Tomas, meaning, "twin"

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 7:52 PM

THEONETRUEBIX

Quote:
Originally posted by cbsteve:
I disagree that Heart of Gold would have been after Objects in Space. In Heart of Gold, Inara decides to leave Serenity. In Objects in Space, she and Mal talk about when she's leaving and about telling the rest of the crew. Now Fox may have wanted to air them that way, but they wouldn't have made sense.

Yes, Heart of Gold would have aired before Objects in Space.

That's precisely why the Mal/Inana dialogue which River overhears was changed for the broadcast version of OiS: Because in the proper version (the DVD version), they are discussing her decision to leave. They changed it for airing because HoG wasn't going to be aired at all.

So, you're quite right. HoG would have aired prior to OiS.

-----

"I beat up a couple of false b!Xes earlier."
-- Joss, 28 June 2007

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 3:50 AM

NBZ

yeah. The original version is also on the DVD's - as an extra - if you want to compare. In it she is threatening to leave from what I can remember.

And then the scene in the Message, where Inara cuts Mal off from asking would the detour be too much for her? I have a feeling that was also a hint at her leaving - Inara did not want the rest of the crew knw yet.

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Monday, September 24, 2007 6:53 AM

WYTCHCROFT

similar conversation in Those Left Behind as well -
almost TOO similar as i remember!

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Monday, September 24, 2007 2:54 PM

NBZ

By TLB it is different IMO. She has already decided and seemingly announced her impending departure, so IMO it is different (unless you mean a different scene to what I am thinking of...)

Of course, Mal gets the blame.

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 1:10 PM

WYTCHCROFT

no - you're right - it's just the 'pastiche' element of that scene that bugs me -
i don't agree with those that say Inara is served badly by the BDM but,
unlike Book, Inara in Those Left behind didn't work for me - the pic of Mal 'agonising' is a stunner though:)

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 1:25 PM

NBZ

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
no - you're right - it's just the 'pastiche' element of that scene that bugs me -
i don't agree with those that say Inara is served badly by the BDM but,
unlike Book, Inara in Those Left behind didn't work for me - the pic of Mal 'agonising' is a stunner though:)

Those Left behind is IMO brilliant for insight.

That "let the ball of Yarn go" piece is where I got the idea that River may be developing crush on Mal.

For the first time we actually see how River thinks. "Ball of Yarn" to Mal. and "let the ball of Yarn go" to Inara. The second does not make sense til you have heard the first.

River cheat sheet: Choose an analogy. Any analogy. use it. But do not tell what the analogy is.

(as an Aside - Mal and Zoe interaction cheat sheet: make him ask a totally obvious question. Extra points if you form it as a "Zoe, why is/are...". Let Zoe give a dry sarcastic reply that is totally unhelpful to the situation.)

Back to topic, River seems to be mirroring Inara's pose and expression when she says that. (not suggesting for a second that it will ever be reciprocated. Much ickiness lies down that road.)

About Mal - you have to realise not many people choose to leave him. Most either are not friends or elave in body bags. I would go no to suggest that Mal may be bad at letting anyone go. Someone who he has feelings for? just multiply his emotion by a large number, then stamp on it as he would do. "None of it means a thing."

I would not say Inara was served bad in either, but it does seem to be possibly be contradictory to the façade we were shown throughout most of the series.

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 1:32 PM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:

About Mal - you have to realise not many people choose to leave him. Most either are not friends or leave in body bags. I would go on to suggest that Mal may be bad at letting anyone go.

yeh - one of the subtexts of the story - those left behind? It's MAL surely.

He (as the pilot shows) NEVER LEAVES and can't rationalise those that do.

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