FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Chinese influence of a deeper level

POSTED BY: SCHOOLBOYSWINK
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 11:10
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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:56 PM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK


This could be a Blue Sun entry, I suppose, but there is no appropriate category, so here it is...

I was pondering not long ago how many different kinds of relationships there are among Serenity's crew, and how they covey a spectrum not typically seen in a single show. In particular, I was thinking of Simon and River and how rare it is for siblings to be on a show, especially a sci-fi show. This got my gray matter working around something I remembered from non-western civ. classes I had taken, and I went searching for info on the Five Confucian Relationships. I believe Firefly covers these varying relationships better than any show I can think of, certainly within the sci-fi genre.

(I will be substituting gender-neutral nouns in place of some of the more traditional Confucian verbiage. Also, I do not for a moment claim that the way these people interact on the show is what Confucius would have considered virtuous, just that the relationships themselves are explored.)

My contrasting examples throughout will be Babylon 5 and StarGate SG-1, since these are the sci-fi shows with which I am most familiar, and I believe their writers made efforts with characterization and plot continuity that at least approach the scholarly, and they are therefore appropriate for a literary discussion of the medium.

*Disclaimer* I LIKE B5 and SG1. My statements that they may not include or fully explore any or all of the 5 relationships is not meant to cut down or belittle the shows in any way, just an analysis of their subject matter.

1) Parent and Child: This is actualy FF's weakest relationship, though we definately see its influences in the way that Mal and Inara treat Kaylee. More importantly, the conversation between Wash and Zoe in Heart of Gold hints that Joss might have been looking to tackle this relationship more directly in the future. Here SG1 receives full marks, as the relationships between Sam and Jacob Carter and between Teal'C and Rai'ac are recurring issues in the show. B5 deals with the relationship only sparsely (Susan and John with their respective fathers; I personally don't count the Kosh symbolism, but you can if you want), but when it does so it does so brilliantly.

2) Husband and Wife: Zoe and Wash characterize this relationship clearly, especially in their few scenes together in Serenity (Pilot) and the beginning of War Stories, and their aforementioned argument in Heart of Gold. There are other cameos throughout the show. SG1 does not deal with this relationship in any significant way that I can recall, with the exception of a couple of episodes with Teal'c's wife Dray'auc. In B5, the husband and wife relationship is only a past influence (John and Anna) until John and Delenn wed, at which point we do have a living example for one season.

3) Friends: This relationship is a powerful force in FF, as well as SG1 and B5 (and indeed most television shows). While, especially in FF, we may take pause to wonder if any of the characters are really friends or not (and I'm not saying they aren't), certainly within the Confucian ideal primarily characterizing a bond of loyalty, trust, and obligation between people who are not related by blood, the relationship is commong throughout the crew of all three shows.

4) Elder and younger siblings: This may be the most rare and striking example of the Five Relationships in FF. In SG1 and B5, siblings make appearances from time to time, and are sometimes discussed, but there are no living examples that appear throughout the show. In FF, on the other hand, the sibling relationship is one of the most critical elements, particularly to the characterization of Simon. That he is willing to sacrifice his life, more or less, for River tells us something important about him, something that belies the seeming arrogance brought on by his proper-ness and shyness. It also tells us something completetly different about him that we would have seen had he given up so much for a parent or child (wherein the obligation is much stronger) or for a wife or lover (where the act might not be seen as completely selfless, as he would have benefitted romantically, if in no other way). Hence this relationship, probably the weakest in typical TV (outside of family sitcoms) is the motivating factor for the primary plot-driving characters.

5) Master and subject: (Here is where I am going to get all the angry responses.) I contend that FF does a much better job painting this relationship than either B5 or SG1. "Zounds!" you say, "How can this be!? Those are both MILITARY sci-fi shows!" True. But imagine Mal in Out of Gas ordering Wash away from Zoe's side and onto the bridge. The commanders in B5 and SG1 rarely use power that way. In either show, a not-too-careful search would probably turn up at least one instance per episode of dialogue or action that would, in the real military, be considered gross insubordination (and if Teal'C had "quit" the SGC one more time, I think they'd have put a revolving door on his quarters). That's O.K., in my book. It may be that there are units that operate that way, and as I am not a military man myself, I am not going to take a firm stance one way or the other. The character's understanding with one another, however, and their casual and conversational interaction, moves their relationships away somewhat from the master and servant and toward the friend and family archetype relationships.
Mal is different. He by no means rules with an iron fist; he is a considerate and fair leader. But he does have power, he knows it, and he wields it, especially in keeping Jayne in line, and at other times as mentioned. He probably applies blunt leadership techniques, drawing on his mandate and right as their leader, as I believe Confucius would have it, more times in 14 episodes and 1 movie than my counter-example shows indicate in years. (Excluding the villian forces, of course, which are typically not the focus of primary character development.) So, while Mal's authority is not as legally absolute, he draws on his force of will via the Master relationship more heavily than many typical sci-fi leaders.

Anyway, I hope some at least find this interesting. I imagine a few will agree with me, and a few more will think I'm full of go-se. But that's Browncoats. I wouldn't have it any other way.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:50 AM

LAWMAN


Interesting article, somewhat lacking in logic, but amusing. All of your five points can be said of any culture, any ethnic background, any television sitcom, and practically any novel written in English, German, or Chinese for that matter. Your argument is a very generalized understanding of humanity. At its best, its ignorant. However, at its worst, strong racist tendencies. Comparing sci-fi shows is one thing. Creating some type of argument talking about a Chinese influence is inane and ignorant. Its describing your observation and pointing out the basic human traits which are existent in every culture, and saying its some exotic influence. But other than that, you have every right to espouse whatever message you want to preach.

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:30 AM

SPACEANJL


Well, I found it interesting. Feel free to ignore the other response. (I'm not sure what's racist about using Confucius to illustrate chinese influence...)

Joss is always interested in non-conventional expressions of conventional or family relationships. The weird little 'family' of Firefly expresses a really wide range of how people interact.

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 12:53 PM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK


Quote:
Originally posted by Lawman:
Interesting article, somewhat lacking in logic, but amusing. All of your five points can be said of any culture, any ethnic background, any television sitcom, and practically any novel written in English, German, or Chinese for that matter. Your argument is a very generalized understanding of humanity. At its best, its ignorant. However, at its worst, strong racist tendencies. Comparing sci-fi shows is one thing. Creating some type of argument talking about a Chinese influence is inane and ignorant. Its describing your observation and pointing out the basic human traits which are existent in every culture, and saying its some exotic influence. But other than that, you have every right to espouse whatever message you want to preach.


First off, Spaceanjl, you're right. I should ignore this post... But I just can't!

I anticipated a fair bit of disagreement with my thesis. I was even kind of looking forward to it. I did not, however, expect to be called an ignorant racist. I read that not as a disagreement, but as an attack, and I can't let it go unanswered. Lawman, let me try and hit the points you brought up in order.

1) My argument is not lacking in logic. You may not agree with it, but it is based in sound logic. Joss himself has stated that in his vision of the 'Verse, the only two cultures to really continue existence are the two current superpowers, America (and by association Western Europe, since those are the U.S.'s primary cultural influences) and China. So obviously there are Chinese cultural influences in the show. Usually in literary discussions, a word straight from the author is considered sufficient proof, but in case you are still un-convinced, you may have noticed that the characters SPEAK CHINESE in every episode. My argument then went on to explain, using examples to show that FF more rigorously examines more of the Five Confucian relationships than most shows of the genre, that the influences of Chinese philosophical schools might extend deeper into the writing of the show than just what we see onscreen. Disagree with it if you like, but I think the logical method itself is sound.

2) They are not MY five "points." They are the Five archetypal social relationships as postulated by the philosopher Confucius in ancient China.

3) Obviously these relationships exist in every culture and ethnicity. Confucius didn't INVENT social relationships, he just devised some categories for them. Do you honestly think I believed that only China has siblings or parents? I doubt you thought that, so I'm trying to figure out why you said it.

4) I must disagree that all five relationships are showcased in "almost every sitcom and novel..." I think FF covers more of them in more deliberate detail in a single source than most fiction, which is the thesis of my original post.

5) Considering that each of us is but one of some 6 billion people on this Earth, I would argue that all of us have only a generalized understanding of humanity. (The fact that I admit this about myself goes along way toward indicated that I am not a racist, but more on that later...) As a matter of fact, my post, and the intelligent discussion I hoped it might inspire, like all good literary discussion, was partially in the hope of exploring and gaining more firsthand insight into that humanity.

6) If either my initial post or this one strike you as something produced by an ignorant mind, I would prevail upon you to employ the pages of a dictionary or thesaurus to help you better understand the meaning of that word.

7) I am deeply offended at your statement that I am a racist or that I or my argument have "racist tendencies." First, let me state that to accuse anyone of prejudice over the internet, by which you have little to no notion of your target's race, culture, gender, religion, etc., is a dangerous move in itself. Secondly, if we are going to continue to eradicate racism and prejudice in the world, we must allow ourselves as humans to enter into discussion with our siblings from other cultures about what makes their cultures and histories unique, that we might better understand and appreciate one another. All cultures are not identical, and the sooner we all understand that and, in that understanding, learn to appreciate our neighbors similarities, differences, and attending motivations and goals, the sooner we can hope to work together and solve some of the world's problems. I can't claim that I took any special care to avoid offense in the writing of my first post, since it never for an instant crossed my mind that a discussion of Confucianism in modern sci-fi would ever be construed as racist or offensive. That said, I don't see anything inflammatory or derogatory, towards any race, in my post, and referring to a benign cultural discussion as racist is an example of what I believe continues to drive wedges between races and cultures today.

8) I did not create or fabricate the notion that there are Chinese influences in the show, as I addressed in #1. They are there, as stated by the creator and writer himself. For that reason, I find it hard to see how taking influences we know are there and searching into them a bit deeper could be considered inane or ignorant. Wrong, maybe; that is your opinion. But inane? That is a strong word to use with so little proof behind it.

9) I would never refer to any culture as "exotic." By its nature, the word indicates the rare-ness or strangeness of a thing, connotatively bringing to mind only the ways in which it is different from what you are used to. I would therefore consider using that word to describe any culture as marginalizing and offensive to that culture. Also, in the case of my specific thesis, it would be a very ill choice, since, as has been stated, the social relationships as categorized by Confucius exist in all cultures, so the word "exotic" would be completely out of place.

10) Since I am not proferring an ideology of any kind, I find the word "preach" to be inappropriate. This is, or was supposed to be, a literary discussion, not a proclomation of political or religious dogma. I hope, and am confident, that everyone else here understood that.

As to the rest of the Browncoats who might read this thread, I apologize for getting my hackles up. I had a notion not to reply to the Lawman, but it has been my experience in such forums that failing to respond is usually taken as concession or the lack of an argument, rather than taking the high road, and some statements I could not let stand. I tried to keep my rebuttals factual and to avoid epithets of any kind, and I hope by those methods I have kept from showing disrespect to any of my fellow Browncoats. Thank you.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:06 AM

LAWMAN


I never called you a racist. I inferred "racist tendencies" at the worst end of your observation. Wordly diatribe hardly justifies your argument. What makes you believe that you can paint a specific idealism "Confucianism" as the prototypical Chinese influence? That is what I am saying as ignorant. If you said that there was a Chinese influence, that can be readily agreed upon since Firefly is based upon a future existence with only China and America surviving as superpowers. You would just be stating the premise to the series. The languages spoken effectuate that premise. The cultures represented in Firefly are vast and many: see Badger. If you had stated that there was a pervasive element or theme of family along with the eschewed relationships, that is something different. My difficulty with your lengthy discourse the "Confucianism" aspect. People who don't understand one very specific element of a culture tend to broadly paint with their own perspective of what they want to see. I will consult a dictionary and/or a thesaurus when the need arises. Such as being paid for every word written. I do regret using the word "preach". As soon as someone mentions an ideal or concept that somehow equates "Confucius" with "China", I get perturbed.

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:42 AM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK


I see that I should have trusted my original instinct and not baited you any further. Whether it offends you or not, Confucius' teachings are some of the most-studied philosophical precepts in Chinese history, and worthy of comment if they present themselves in literature. In literature that contains influences of the nation from which this philosophy originally hails, the comparison becomes the more striking. I could have discussed the show in terms of Decartes or Socrates, but those aren't the influences I was considering at that time.

I will close (and reply no further whatever you may want to say, as I see now that it would do no good) that I believe your vehement reaction, and your rapid assumption that I believe Confucianism represents all things Chinese (a position for which you will find no actual proof in my posts), both say far more about you than they do about me.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:00 AM

LAWMAN


I can live with that. I would have appreciated more discourse regarding Descartes and Socrates. Assumptions are everywhere, just as we all carry around our own biases, its part of life. Don't stress so much over one vaunted discourse. You and I had a spirited exchange. I have read over a few things from your earlier post, and I admit I may have flown off the handle. Don't stop waxing poetic on my account. If we can't discuss issues and ideas and polemics, then what's the point of having a free society? C'mon, just one more reply. Tell me you didn't enjoy writing those responses just a little bit. I enjoyed reading your discourses, had a kind of poetry to it. Its no fun if everybody agrees with you.

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 11:29 AM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK


Alright, since we are being reasonable now, I will respond again. My philosophy is that if you're dumb, you surround yourself with smart people. If you are smart, you surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you. If I can count on your future disagreements to be more fact and logic-based and less visceral, then we may trade productive words in later days. Still, all manner of unkind things have been said, and I've never had much of a reputation for keeping a cool head, so for my part I'd be speaking amiss if I made any guarantee of future civility.

I did enjoy writing the response because I enjoy logic and debate; however in this case I feel as if I'd been drawn into something that was less debate and more outright argument, and that I could have done without.

As for Socrates and Decartes, though I don't know from what part of the world you hail, I my own self am a citizen of "Western" civilization, and in my schooling those kinds of fellows have all been done to death. I posted about the Eastern influence because it did not bore me so much as the Western, and I thought it would make for a more interesting topic. I guess if "interesting" was my only goal, then I have probably been successful, though left with the feeling that maybe I should have been a little more specific in my ambition.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 6:43 AM

LAWMAN


The future is what the future is. No guarantees in life, except death and taxes. Philosophical tangents aside, I always go back and forth wondering if Joss intentionally put something in a specific scene or in the discourse between characters, to some very attenuated concept for idea. I definitely do believe he is gifted in telling a story and making his characters believable. I don't believe he is as brilliant as we would like to believe. I think the brilliance that many fans notice in the episodes is partly him, but partly the exacting nature of the fan as well. I am not a fan of buffy or other whedonesque works. However, I am a hardcore fan of the Firefly series. Firefly has too few fans, and maybe that is because of who the fanbase is, not necessarily the product we ascribe to. Firefly speaks to me on a level that is more than just science fiction and original story telling. I can watch it with other folks, and they don't see the magic at all. I know that many people see a specific concept or philosophical ideal that they see in a dialogue or scene. I'm starting to think that the viewer brings much of that to light based upon their own personal experiences. And the painful question to ask is: if Firefly was so brilliant, why did most of America sleep on it? A lot of excuses, bad timing, order of episodes... every episode had a brilliance to it that was deep and profound. It would not have mattered, because I would have become an avid fan regardless. I believe that this series was destined to fail because of what the general public has become. Can't appreciate a good thing when it sees it. This all makes me believe that not everyone can become a "browncoat". and I certainly don't agree with a lot of what other "browncoats" believe in. Not socratic, but a lot of thinking on my end.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 11:48 AM

MERRYK


Quote:
I believe that this series was destined to fail because of what the general public has become. Can't appreciate a good thing when it sees it. This all makes me believe that not everyone can become a "browncoat".


Now this is something I definitely do not believe in, because I have seen it proved otherwise. I am a philosophical person myself, and find huge depths to Firefly (and have been known to find depths in almost anything, much of it probably not deserving), but so does a friend of mine who finds most Western classics too boring. We can't really discuss literary tastes together, but we can connect with Firefly. My father is a computer programmer and reads almost exclusively military thrillers, and it's sometimes hard for me to find something to talk about with him, but Firefly—we could go on for hours about its subtleties.

From my conversions, I have seen Firefly to appeal to everyone, literally. From four year olds who are eerily River-esque to gun-loving teen boys to young ASL interpreters to middle-aged airplane mechanics. The only thing these people could possibly have in common is that they are church-going folk...in all other aspects they are a slice of the general public, and now they are Browncoats as well. Firefly is not for the elite—anyone can be a Browncoat.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 12:07 PM

LAWMAN


Not everyone sympathizes with "browncoats". Some people just don't get the series. I do agree that fans of the series come from all walks of life and are as varied as they come. you can lead a horse to water... as important as the details that make the verse so distintive and beautiful, what is missing also creates in imagination and "what could have beens...". i think the series has taken a life of its own now, and what it is today is bigger than the series originally was. we write and discuss some minute details about the plot, characters, and even furniture inside firefly verse. but interestingly enough, to most people its just not that interesting. the episodes evoked not just passions and interests, but they elicited a heartfelt pang, a wistfulness of dreams and hopes that never achieved their full potential and goal. which is what i'm doing here, not achieving the proper representation of my observations in thought.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 12:18 PM

MERRYK


I understand where you're coming from, Lawman, but I really can't sympathize as I have not come across anyone who was indifferent to Firefly after watching it. Serenity the movie, yes, but not Firefly. It's true, though, the fandom has expanded the universe to an unimaginable vastness.

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 12:11 PM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK


Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
I understand where you're coming from, Lawman, but I really can't sympathize as I have not come across anyone who was indifferent to Firefly after watching it. Serenity the movie, yes, but not Firefly. It's true, though, the fandom has expanded the universe to an unimaginable vastness.


Even my wife has gotten into the show more than most shows (and more than she would admit). When I was trying to get her to watch it, and would make comments about the show, she would give me that "here we go again" look. Now that she has seen it, she responds to my references and we've actually had a couple of decent conversations about the show. The very fact that she remembers all 9 (10, counting Serenity) characters' names after only effectively half a season says something. Granted, she is not up to my level of nearing unhealthy fixation, but that is probably for the best for our marriage. One person buying three copies of the BDCE the week it came out with intentions to purchase more is probably enough.

I think I've even started to pique the interest of a co-worker. We both play D&D Online, and I was telling him about the new guild I had founded. He wanted to join, and I told him he'd have to get onto a Firefly fan site and brush up on his lingo if he wanted in. "I'll pass," he says. But a couple hours later over the cubicle wall I hear him say "So what is Firefly, anyway?" (I'd mentioned it before at work, but not in detail.) Remembering Joss's response, I went the polite route and merely said "It's a TV show." "They've got a cool logo," he then said, so he must have been looking at SOMETHING. Later, I gave him a piece of paper with my guild name of "Shadow's Browncoats" on it. "What's a Browncoat?" he asked. In earnest I responded, "Do you really want to know?" He replied with equal earnestness that he did, so I told him. He's not the kind to really WATCH TV or movies often, but the seed has been planted.

I must grudgingly agree with Lawman, though, that there MUST be people out there that don't like or "get" the show. I mean, there would have to be, right? Yeah, the time-slots and whatnot kept moving around, but SOMEBODY must have watched an episode or half of one and just changed the channel and never changed it back. (Gorram purple-belly better hope I don't find him...) Anyway, I'm sure there must be people somewhere who just doesn't like it. I will let you know when I meet one.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 12:19 PM

WYTCHCROFT


wow! what an amazing thread!
cheers people - i was GRIPPED!
again with the - wow!


shiny shiny people

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Sunday, October 28, 2007 2:38 AM

WYTCHCROFT


pulling this back in a vaguely ON topic direction - i am interested right now in how people think cultures in general have survived into the verse... in the trainjob commentary Joss and Tim point out how they tried (well, enjoyed) throwing different cultures onto the screen - and in interview Joss has stressed the 'it's all up for grabs - it's all in the mix' aspect of the show/'verse. Which is a loose kind of post-modern approach (i guess)...

but we see little genuine onscreen evidence... the odd costume - the statue on sihnon - a few references elsewhere...

it makes me wonder if culture/roots have gone the way of the earth that was... the Alliance would stress that they ARE culture (and they may not be wrong) - the independents would say they are holding to a culture otherwise near extinct (and they might not be right)...

i'm writing a fic where a character has had to rely on third hand info (the net and tv in effect) to build a version of a culture they identify with ... which is most likely way way way from the 'truth' of that culture past.

any thoughts? any bits of the show i should look at again???

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 5:24 AM

NCBROWNCOAT


From what I see on Firefly, the cultures of the US and China predominate but there are bits and pieces of others that somehow have survived.

I would think though that at least some ethinic/cultural groups some how reconnected with each other after the trip to the new galaxy or they may have even stayed together during the "Exodus".

Also, there would be family stories and traditions passed down to new generations. This could spark some to research their roots and return to the old traditions. Just look at the popularity and obsession with genealogy here on "Earth that Was."

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/









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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 1:31 PM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
From what I see on Firefly, the cultures of the US and China predominate but there are bits and pieces of others that somehow have survived.

I would think though that at least some ethinic/cultural groups some how reconnected with each other after the trip to the new galaxy or they may have even stayed together during the "Exodus".

Also, there would be family stories and traditions passed down to new generations. This could spark some to research their roots and return to the old traditions. Just look at the popularity and obsession with genealogy here on "Earth that Was."



makes sense what you say... i sorta tried to present a case where a culture hasn't survived...
i think it would be nice to see the exploration of a 'reconnected' culture... small scale - but i keep thinking as well of the rastas - and 'zion' in william gibson's work...

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Friday, November 2, 2007 10:23 AM

WYTCHCROFT


bump

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Tuesday, November 6, 2007 6:14 AM

SPACEANJL


Ah, yes, Gibson... I'm liking your idea of the Native American culture...(guess you saw the guy in the wheelchair, too, huh? Keep reading TTT...)

The Chinese influence is strong enough that most folk seem to be bilingual, and signs and keyboards are all in those two languages primarily.

But the idea of what culture might survive, and in what form is something I'm playing with. (Like 'Demolition Man', and the ad jingles?)
I have a Captain whose heritage is Japanese. And an ex-pilot who is Egyptian. There are all sorts of small cultural things in the background of the series - Amon's skullcap, someone in a burqa. But people are going to be dependent on officially sanctioned sources or whatever family history has been handed down. The ultimate Chinese whispers, I suppose.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2007 11:10 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
I'm liking your idea of the Native American culture...


except that that culture has not geuniely survived in my take on the 'verse. When i watched Firefly - a western - first thing i noticed was 'there aint no injuns'...

Quote:
But the idea of what culture might survive, and in what form is something I'm playing with.


and very nicely too - flatter fawn etc

Quote:
(Like 'Demolition Man', and the ad jingles?)
I have a Captain whose heritage is Japanese. And an ex-pilot who is Egyptian. There are all sorts of small cultural things in the background of the series


but friction too, right? i don't buy the 'enlightened' vision of the future so popular with the board - it's star trek -
the alliance seems to keep women in very restricted roles and i doubt that a rim world culture capable of burning witches isn't also capable of racial awareness/tension - so i've tried to bring that in to both zoe and other characters - but gently (natch).

the core is clearly class aware after all.



Quote:
The ultimate Chinese whispers, I suppose.


HA!

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The Savant Crew
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