Ariel... by freelancertex

true as well. but, as she said in one episode, "I remember everything, I remember too much, and some of it's made up...there's secrets" (yes i know thats not the full quote, but I just needed the parts that served my purpose :-P) So it very well could be a combination of memories and things she's 'gleaned' from certain important secret people :P lol

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 7:20 AM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

The trouble here is that we don't know exactly how much River was supposed to have had in her head, what it was about, etc. when the Firefly episodes themselves were being written. (Possibly NOBODY knew the specifics, if Joss hadn't decided yet.) We do know for sure that the intended origin of Reavers was changed between the show and the BDM when the story had to kind of switch from a weekly serial to an epic film format, so who knows what else in terms of the info that was supposed to be in River's head, that we now speculate about because of the BDM, was never intended during the time that the episodes themselves were being written.

I believe that most of what River spouts is her own interpretation of the events going on around her, in her fractured reality. This, to me, is just an outgrowth of her inability to "not feel" things; her mental associations and some internal monologues just come flying out of her mouth. Ariel itself contains a perfect example, with her lines about coming downstairs at Christmas and all the presents being gone serving as an analog in her mind for Jayne betraying them and then finding that no reward was coming.

All that said, the quote you cited about "secrets" shows that, even before the BDM, River was supposed to know SOMETHING, and some of what she rambles is difficult to tie in directly to the things that are going on at that time. So, the idea of a code in some of the things she mutters is a possibility, and a very intriguing one at that, especially since she used a code to communicate to Simon that she was in trouble. Now that the direction of the story arc has been changed by the cancellation and subsequent BDM, most sadly, we may never know for sure.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:26 AM

prezactly. :-P

The show will come back. I'll make sure of it :)

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:41 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:
....We do know for sure that the intended origin of Reavers was changed between the show and the BDM when the story had to kind of switch from a weekly serial to an epic film format,

Really? I didn't know. you got a link on that?

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:01 PM

People may speak in code, write it, work with it, but I doubt they think in it.

If they did I am of the opinion that River would not have found what she "saw" as traumatic - she would not have understood it.

A mind reading is not like reading a book. you do not get the full story every time.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:20 PM

MERRYK

My opinion, partly from what I understand of how Joss writes, and partly because I love realistic psychology, is that River knows way more than she knows she does. Even in her lucid moments, I don't think she would be able to retrieve what she's read. It's probably buried in her memory, due to her mental instability and the way that memory works.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:02 PM

NBZ, I know they don't THINK in code @_@, what I'm saying is since she can read minds, and the information is there in their minds, she probably picked it out. They don't have to think it for her to retrieve it, it just has to be there.

MerryK, yeah but we don't know exactly when she's lucid and when she's not. When she starts babbling, IF it's code, she's probably in one of her more unstable moments. she doesn't seem to have a firm grasp of reality most of the time anyway. As was said, she's "a bit whimsical in the brainpan."

*shrugs* just my argument though :-P I'm not rejecting what you're saying, it's just I'm trying to clarify my point of view. :)

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 7:53 PM

I don't see her speaking in code, unless the thought that she read was already in code. She speaks quite straightforward, from what I see. When the ship goes boom, she says Fire, and everybody ignores her until they wander around getting injured and finding out there is a fire - but one example.
When not speaking of the current, then she speaks of the past or of other gleaned memories, likely all of these undiscernable to her.

Of course, as a mother-of-all-geniuses, nobody should be able to understand her fully, so the scriptwriters did an amazingly great job of portraying this.

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:51 AM

I'm talking about the episode 'Ariel' in particular ;) I was watching the episode as I made this topic lol. twas a thought that occured on the fly.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:17 AM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:
....We do know for sure that the intended origin of Reavers was changed between the show and the BDM when the story had to kind of switch from a weekly serial to an epic film format,

Really? I didn't know. you got a link on that?

No, Veteran, no link. It is actually something I read here, but I don't remember who said it. I remember thinking at the time that it was reliable, based on either a reference or my past impressions of the poster; I know that's pretty lousy support. Can anybody back me up on this one? Thanks in advance if so.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:40 AM

JONGSSTRAW

I think originally the Reavers got that way as a result of eating tainted Kosher Passover tuna.

Sorry....couldn't resist...from Flesh Gordon

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:
NBZ, I know they don't THINK in code @_@, what I'm saying is since she can read minds, and the information is there in their minds, she probably picked it out. They don't have to think it for her to retrieve it, it just has to be there.

heh, totally offtopic (I think) but this is the point where I probably disagree with the known universe. :)

IMO Someone has to be thinking something for her to pick it up. Think of it like a wave hitting her. She may not know who or where it came from. since she also thinks herself, she may even confuse it for one of her own thoughts.

But she could not sift through a persons mind to find something ni particular. unless there is some physical gesturing. Like "I don't want to talk about a pony" to get the person to think about a pony.

Apart from that Ariel *DOES* pose a lot of questions. some easily answered, some not so.

Going back to code, if she does use it, it is entirely possible this is a part of her pre-academy skillset.

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 2:58 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Yeah, but what constitutes thinking?

..... Ok Ok stop laughing for a sec. What I mean is perhaps she can read people's unconscious thoughts. The human brain deals with so much information all at once, absorbing all the sensations of everyday life, keeping the body balanced, keeping a constant image of your surroundings, thinking about what's for lunch.... And then there's your thoughts. Not just what's on your mind, but the stuff in the back of your mind. Maybe your making a sandwich but simultaneously you're considering the character of your companion. You're thinking about how much mustard is going on the sandwich, but your also thinking about the traitorous opportunist to your right. Only you don't notice it because your actively engaged in sandwich making.

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:49 PM

conscious or subconscious both will have potential to be read.

However, just knowing some fact will probably not be of much use unless there is some thought about it.

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:57 PM

In Ariel she knows the doctor is killing the patient, even though the doc does not know. It might be his subconscious which knows, or4 it could be in his memory of what the drugs he administers can do, but he is not intentionally killing his patient. But River knows. Unless the writers have accepted the premonition aspect of mind reading/ESP/psychics, she is not seeing into the immediate future, but reading the memory or subconscious of the killing doctor.

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:50 PM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:

heh, totally offtopic (I think) but this is the point where I probably disagree with the known universe. :)

IMO Someone has to be thinking something for her to pick it up. Think of it like a wave hitting her. She may not know who or where it came from. since she also thinks herself, she may even confuse it for one of her own thoughts.

But she could not sift through a persons mind to find something in particular.

this matches my way of thinking entirely.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 7:27 AM

Jewelstaitefan: prezactly :-P thanks for the example

NBZ: I didn't say she was sifting through thoughts in people's minds, but if you think about it she can and does actively read people's minds. later on in 'Trash' when she looks after Jayne and says he's afraid, Jayne never said he was afraid. Nor did anyone but Mal (who never told any of the other crew) know about Jayne betraying the Tams on Ariel. And in the BDM I doubt the Parliamentary officials who were observing her were actively thinking about Miranda, as that incident happened 10 years prior, yet she still gleaned the memory. Yes, she's probably absorbing memories and thoughts from other people, I'm not denying that, but she's a psychic, she knows what people around her are thinking.

"I just don't like the idea of her hearin' what I'm thinkin'."

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Yeah, but what constitutes thinking?

..... Ok Ok stop laughing for a sec. What I mean is perhaps she can read people's unconscious thoughts. The human brain deals with so much information all at once, absorbing all the sensations of everyday life, keeping the body balanced, keeping a constant image of your surroundings, thinking about what's for lunch.... And then there's your thoughts. Not just what's on your mind, but the stuff in the back of your mind. Maybe your making a sandwich but simultaneously you're considering the character of your companion. You're thinking about how much mustard is going on the sandwich, but your also thinking about the traitorous opportunist to your right. Only you don't notice it because your actively engaged in sandwich making.

prezactly what I was trying to say, xie-xie :) Sometimes I can't find the right words, you did.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Friday, October 26, 2007 1:29 PM

TRAVELER

River seems got a lot of information on Jubal. I do not believe he was thinking about the dog he tortured, yet River knew all about it. With information like that flowing through her mind she would really have a hard time living in reality.

River had so many other abilities. When she killed those three guys with her eyes closed. She calculated the angle and distnce of each one and simply pointed the pistol at them. She had to work fast before they moved.

Her abilities seem to strengthen when she needs them and memories pop out when she sees something like a Blue Sun label on a can of beans.

Were not told, but I feel River may have helped Mal with Saffron when the stole the laser pistol. Letting him know what was going to happen after they stole it. I really thought it was out of character for Mal to let his guard down and lose his weapon to his wife. It may not even had been loaded. He just wanted to one up on her.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, October 26, 2007 1:53 PM

SPEAKING of Jubal Early, you just reminded me. When she was talking to everyone on the ship, and she was talking to Mal, and he made a face, nad she said "don't make faces." Yes, I knwo she was using the comm system, but there's no video feed on the comm, only audio. same when she told Zoe "no touching guns!!"

Traveler, pleas explain more about the Mal/Saffron thing?? And btw, out of curiosity, where'd you get your sn from?

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Friday, October 26, 2007 2:12 PM

TRAVELER

I was just making a theory that Mal got advance knowledge from River that good old Mrs. Reynolds was was going to dump Mal in the desert. It was not her original plan. She had already pulled a gun on Mal when they were still in her first husband's house. But River seems to know the future. She seems to see ahead at times. So Mal sits next to Saffron and lets her steal his gun. All the while Mal knows Inara is waiting at the trash container. Notice that Inara waits till Saffron has dug into trash and gotten filthy before showing herself. They really wanted Mrs. Reynolds to know they had her all figured out.

By my SN do you mean the picture of Princess Aura.
Tony Labue's Flash Gordon site has an excellent collection of stills of Princess Aura. Sometimes they even have a forum. The forum seems to go down about once a year due to spam. But the rest of the sight is available and gives an excellent account of the three serials Buster Crabbe made as Flash Gordon.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, October 26, 2007 2:58 PM

Just addressing a few points in a few different posts.

I am not denying that River can read thoughts. (not brains/minds, but thoughts.)

Jubal Early: She was not always in his mind. She was in his ship. Where he had a picture of a dog and a few other things. See him mentioning his mother. Then correcting herself. River(sees the picture of the old woman): "Your mother does." Jubal (thinks) "she is dead." River: "Oh, Did."

Same with Mal - the making faces bit does not support that she reads minds like a book. And Zoe "I'll just get my gun" River: "No touching guns!".

Reading thoughts, not minds. (This brings another question to the fore - is she conditioned to follow orders? seems likely to me.)

In the BDM - the subliminal message seemed to have sent a lot of information. Probably more than necessary. If you look at the subliminal shots, there is even one of the operative. I doubt she had met him before. (ofcourse there is also artistic licence here. The subliminal message we saw could just be a jumble of nothing. but it did also show some old people she talked about later...)

subconscious thinking or conscious she can pick up on. Maybe one of those that saw her had the thought that she could be used to clean up their mess?

I do not think River helped out on the lassiter job. For one she is not shown much in that episode, secondly, I doubt Joss would turn down a chance for exposition of Rivers' abilities. Besides even Saffron would have been improvising - waiting to get her upper hand. Which she almost got infront of Haymer, but Mal pulled out his own hidden pistol. In the original script of Serenity, River was supposed to pull Mal's gun on him. Even though that was changed, I would put this "carelessness" as one of his characteristics.

Ariel - She could sense what the patient was feeling. She could also sense what the doctor was thinking. Since she is around a doctor most o0f the time, she would pick up some info. oh, and she is also a genius to boot.

and Jayne being afraid - not hard to discern even for a non-psychic! he was uncomfortable around them two in that very scene, jumpy and rounding on them in response. and she is a reader. Not hard to read the fear that others know what he did. A fear he even showed to mal - kill him, but don;t tell others what he did.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 6:01 PM

Traveler: I thought Mal had Inara there as backup, cuz when she goes to pick him up at the end they discuss that...iunno.
And by your sn I mean your screen name ;-) sry. AIM abbreviations sometimes dominate my forum posts. I try to keep it to a minimum.

NBZ: yeah, but she said "he's afraid we'll know" and she told her brother about what REALLY happened on Ariel, that's why Simon had that little conversation on the doctor's table with Jayne later on.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Friday, October 26, 2007 11:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:

NBZ: I didn't say she was sifting through thoughts in people's minds, but if you think about it she can and does actively read people's minds. later on in 'Trash' when she looks after Jayne and says he's afraid, Jayne never said he was afraid. Nor did anyone but Mal (who never told any of the other crew) know about Jayne betraying the Tams on Ariel.

prezactly what I was trying to say, xie-xie :) Sometimes I can't find the right words, you did.

Error error.
River knows Jayne betrayed them from the moment she wakes from corpsified and says "piece of copper for your...." when she already read his thought without providing the penny, and the entire episode (in hospital) he's on edge for betraying them and she keeps saying she doesn't want to go back to them (hands of blue) but Simon keeps telling her Jayne is helping them, which she knows is wrong.
She repeatedly mentions this betrayal of Jayne, although not clearly for others to catch on to until Simon finally listens when she says Jayne is afraid, of them, for what they (she) knows.

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:28 AM

Also, the patient has no knowledge of being killed. She's not getting the info from him. Either she's getting it from the killing doc, or one of the nurses who knows but will not stop it, or we would need to acknowledge River is precognitive, seeing into the future.

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:47 PM

The patient does not know what the doctor is doing. However he probably can feel what is happening. faint, nauseous feeling pain around the heart etc etc.

I cannot accept precognition. Not until Joss himself declares it so. But his statement about the furthest he was willing to go into fantasy was a psychic would IMO contradict that.

The most I will accept is that she is good at putting 1 and 1 together to get (very close) to a correct answer. and she feels everything, so she does not ignore any data points (while she possibly may consider too many... and she is crazy...)

However some people do class precognition as psychic as well... some people not me.

As you said she knew about Jayne because she could read his thoughts.

PS If it is assumed she has precognitive abilities, her mind reading comes into doubt. She knows Jayne betrayed them not because she read his mind, but because she knew he would admit to it later on... I prefer to stick to thought reading, and only thought reading. with a strong mind, good bodily coordination.

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 5:52 PM

I did not know Joss considered psychic to be fantasy. He writes it well for not understanding it.
I also had not considered precogition would be seen as something other than a facet of psychic. Perhaps I onetime thought that, can't remember, but doesn't fit with my current understanding.
How would you categorize precognition? As being completely separate from psychic? do you consider them both ESP? do you consider deja vu to be precognitive? or ESP? Do you consider precognition to be fantasy? Or only relegated to the likes of Nostradomas?
Did Jayne actually admit it to River or Simon? I only recall him admitting to Mal.

I haven't quite figured out why she cuts Jayne - just because he was rude to Simon? Before or after the extra large gob on the wetstone (or is it whetstone?)

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 6:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:
Traveler: I thought Mal had Inara there as backup, cuz when she goes to pick him up at the end they discuss that...iunno.

I thought what Mal was doing was keeping her away from the trash site so Inara had time to find the Lassiter well before Yosaff got there - not like they knew exactly how long it would take to find it, so Mal needed to delay her for as long as possible.

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:05 PM

scifi and fantasy are interchangeable there.

He said psychic was as far as he was willing to go.

It was only later when I realised that seeing the future can also be classed as psychic.

I normally class precognition, deja vu etc all under the time travel banner. Is that scifi or fantasy? a bit of both. More fantasy IMO. Besides noone has ever got time travel right. in any form. I see it mostly used as a cop out (even worse, sometimes it is a reset switch!). But then again reincarnating dead characters could be seen as the same... so personally I dislike most things that deal with time travel. too many pitfalls that people don't even try to avoid. too much arbitrary "logic" to get around thinking.

Besides this 'verse does not even have FTL travel! something that is in most fantasy essential for time travel.

River knowing about Jayne - She read his or Mal's or that cop geezers thoughts.

She cuts Jayne because he was wearing a Blue Sun T shirt. and he spits on the whetstone. and insults Simon. and she is crazy. She also thinks he looks better in red. Could be either or all.

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Sunday, October 28, 2007 12:48 AM

I would agree time travel in terms of physical transportation forward or backward in time is more fantasy, as there are some technical glitches in the application of it. But mental horizons are not the same.
I do not consider myself a time traveller just because I've had clearcut deja vu, without a way to logically dispell or denigrate the experience.

Since university studies have already proven time is not a limitation of psychic events (or technical remote viewings), I also don't consider it to be relegated to time travel, either.

But I'm not wrapping my mind around how those 3 can be grouped together as time travel. Gotta think about that more.

One thing about the possibility of River being precognitive. If she sees in the near future that Jayne will betray them, then she cuts him, which then spurs him to betray them, thus she creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. kinda like 12 Monkeys.

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Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:50 PM

Quote:
Jewelstaitefan:
Error error.
River knows Jayne betrayed them from the moment she wakes from corpsified and says "piece of copper for your...." when she already read his thought without providing the penny, and the entire episode (in hospital) he's on edge for betraying them and she keeps saying she doesn't want to go back to them (hands of blue) but Simon keeps telling her Jayne is helping them, which she knows is wrong.
She repeatedly mentions this betrayal of Jayne, although not clearly for others to catch on to until Simon finally listens when she says Jayne is afraid, of them, for what they (she) knows.

Yeah, I knew that part lol. Sorry for not being clear. I was trying to convey that she knew Jayne was betraying them when no one else did, that was the only quote I could think of to convey that fact. :\ Thanks though.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Sunday, October 28, 2007 7:29 PM

So in this episode the thing I least understand is River cutting Jayne. I understand most of you think River is insane, but I don't. So here's my take on the cutting.

Jayne says Simon's food smells like crotch, he's cleaning gun parts.
River takes her crotch food over to the table, then she'd looking grumpy at Jayne.
Jayne puts away his gun stuff, brings out the knives and gobs on the whetstone, Simon complains, and Jayne hawks extra big, in intimidating fashion.
River heads back to get a knife.
Jayne, being rude to Simon, says can't exclude the doc, that would be ruuuude - making sarcastic fun of Simon's sensibilities.
River cuts Jayne.
When asked why, River says he looks better in red - she seems defiant.

Simon is River's savior. River sees and senses Simon is offended by Jayne and Jayne is being a bully to Simon, and he is intentionally being rude and a bully.
He has switched to knife. Under the guise of "live by the sword, die be the sword", Jayne is living by the knife and can die by the knife (she won't actualy kill him). Additionally, Jayne thinks he is the hot poop of knife-wielders on board, but River knows she's far beyond him (we will see in BDH). So in order to one-up Jayne (the bully) in the wielding of Knifes, River will then put him in his place and stop him from bullying her savior. The knife is her medium of message delivery. I think he is still holding a knife when she cuts him with the knife.
I'm thinking if another mind reader was present, they could have said here "Saw that one coming"
When asked why, she is not remorseful. I do think she is flippant.

Did she overreact? yes. Was it illogical? no. Think of it in terms of a schoolyard - kids exceed the limits of boundaries understood by adults, she's still emotionally something of a kid, not a lot of exposure to real world or bullies. When the oversized bully is picking on the runt, how many can recall wishing they could put the bully in his place, on his terms (being bigger if the bully is just big, being more experienced with a bat if that's what's being used to bully, etc.)
She did violated the rule of First Blood, but she's still learning.

Anybody disagree with this? any factual or canonical references to refute this? This fairly makes sense to me, but it's still kinda shaky.

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Sunday, October 28, 2007 7:36 PM

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Monday, October 29, 2007 6:06 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

So in this episode the thing I least understand is River cutting Jayne. I understand most of you think River is insane, but I don't. So here's my take on the cutting.

Jayne says Simon's food smells like crotch, he's cleaning gun parts.
River takes her crotch food over to the table, then she'd looking grumpy at Jayne.
Jayne puts away his gun stuff, brings out the knives and gobs on the whetstone, Simon complains, and Jayne hawks extra big, in intimidating fashion.
River heads back to get a knife.
Jayne, being rude to Simon, says can't exclude the doc, that would be ruuuude - making sarcastic fun of Simon's sensibilities.
River cuts Jayne.
When asked why, River says he looks better in red - she seems defiant.

I've always felt that River cuts Jayne, simply because she's triggered directly by what Wash says:

WASH
So, two days in a hospital, huh?
(Inara nods)
That's awful. Don't you just
hate doctors?

SIMON
Hey!

WASH
I mean, present company excluded.

JAYNE
Don't be excluding people, that's
just rude.

The "Don't you just hate doctors?" comment is what I believe sets River of -- the other lines are just time-filler (it takes a second or two for River to act on her trigger). Could be Jayne's "Don't be excluding people" functions like a kinda of actuator, prompting River to, indeed, include him -- after his own suggestion, as it were -- in the flashbacks she's having about the bad doctors in her life. A trigger which is compounded by Jayne wearing that Blue Sun shirt. It's the talk about hating doctors + Jayne wearing that Blue Sun shirt (+ possibly him 'asking' to be included) that proves a combination which is too much for River.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, October 29, 2007 6:12 AM

SHINYSEVEN2

Maybe River is identifying with Simon, who cuts people with knives (for their own good!), or having a precognition of one of the future times when Simon will be operating on Jayne?

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Monday, October 29, 2007 10:35 AM

Huh?

...

Now y'all got me confused. I mean, I never understood why River cut Jayne in the first place, but now I think I'm more confused :-P

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"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Monday, October 29, 2007 8:27 PM

River was already heading back to get the knife or already had it in hand before Jayne said "not to exclude doctors" or Wash said that. It was all after Wash said "it IS sitting still."

River's animosity is all directed at Jayne, nobody else in this scene. Not Wash.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 9:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:
Huh?

...

Now y'all got me confused. I mean, I never understood why River cut Jayne in the first place, but now I think I'm more confused :-P

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 5:48 AM

Jewel: about everything they all just said *points to everyone above her*

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 10:29 PM

If you specify more, I'll try to explain more.

According to the script, one sentence has Jayne looking Simon in the eye while hawking gob on his knife, the next has River heading back to the kitchen to get a knife while Simon scoots farther away from Jayne.

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Friday, November 2, 2007 1:45 PM

TRAVELER

Originally I used the name Traveler because I take a lot of road trips. A lot of concrete has felt the tires of my vehicles.

Then I was reading a book on one of my favorite topics, the Civil War. I study war in general.
Suddenly I come across the fact that Robert E. Lee's horse throughout the war was named Traveller, with two L's. Was this subliminal? I know I must have read about this before. If you saw my collection of books on the Civil War, you would not have hard time realizing I must have read about this fact before.

On a side note Traveller out-lived Robert E. Lee. General Lee did not live long after the Civil War. The effort of campaigning for four years and the strain of overall command of the Army of Virginia took its toll on Lee's health.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, November 2, 2007 5:11 PM

aha. I see. Cool :)

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 8:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
The patient does not know what the doctor is doing. However he probably can feel what is happening. faint, nauseous feeling pain around the heart etc etc.

I should mention that pain for this is not felt. Therem are not pain sensors around the heart, heart problem pain is felt in the arms, nexk and such.

Even knowing your heart is not beating is very difficult to isolate a sensation of it. I have watched my heart skip up to 4 beats and still had very hard time detecting any sensation relating to it.
Unless this guy had meditative feedback training he would have no clue, particularly subconscious - and he doesn't look the sort to know meditation.

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 1:47 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

River's animosity is all directed at Jayne, nobody else in this scene. Not Wash.

No one said it was targeted at Wash, did they? I said she was triggered by what Wash said, and, after a short delay, acted out on Jayne: most like because he was wearing the Blue Sun shirt. Typical case of transference.

Also, there's nothing to indicate River went back to the kitchen with the specific purpose of getting that knife. And IF she really went back for a knife, which is quite possible, then only because Jayne was playing with HIS knives: River is an observer, and, at that point, I think she was, if at all, merely intending to mimic (innocently) a behavior she found fascinating.

In my opinion, River was just heading for the kitchen, folks started talking about "Don't ya just hate Doctors" and such, and then River just grabbed the knife, and turned on Jayne because he was, in that moment, the most immediate link to Blue Sun, what with his shirt and all.

That whole scene, IMHO, had no other purpose than to hint to the fact that River had some traumatic (medical) experience with Blue Sun/Alliance.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, December 29, 2007 7:40 PM

LACYFLYER

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
River seems got a lot of information on Jubal. River had so many other abilities. When she killed those three guys with her eyes closed. Her abilities seem to strengthen when she needs them and memories pop out when she sees something like a Blue Sun label on a can of beans.

/B]

If the series had gone on, there would have been time to explore all of River's abilities, but I think psychic is just one of them. Simon said that, as gifited as he was (top 3% of his med school class) River made him look like an idiot. In addition to psychic, she was probably prescient as well, as in knowing the doctor was killing his patient in Ariel. Could she sense the increased heartrate of a patient going into cardiac arrest? That's what I thought. Reading thoughts & memories, feeling the heartrate and breathing of others (maybe even feeling the beginning spasms of Petaline's labor in HoG?), having a thorough understanding of human nature and psychology, these are just some of her talents and of course it's all just too much for her. I think that even if she had not been messed up by the Alliance people playing with her brain she probably would have been pretty mentally unstable. Who hasn't had moments of feeling insecure and insignificant when considering the big question of Life, The Universe and Everything? Amplify that with complete understanding yet the complications of adolescence (River is only 17) and OMG! Poor Bayby! I have so much sympathy for her.

Some people juggle geese!

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Sunday, December 30, 2007 2:51 PM

RIVERFLAN

Just for the record, precognition is just a branch of ESP (extra sensorary perception), or being psychic. Psychic (ESP) is a term that covers a wide range of abilities, the ones that I can remember right now being telepathy, telekinesis, precognition, seeing auras and/or ghosts, and astral projection.

I don't think River is be a precog- Joss wouldn't do that, she has enough data coming into her as it is, and it wouldn't be his style.

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Sunday, December 30, 2007 3:06 PM

aaaaah, astral projection..

except that she is a precog..as has been stated by more than one character.
point of interest, she knew petaline was going into labor before petaline did.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Sunday, December 30, 2007 10:50 PM