More objects in space.. by gnoc

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

More objects in space..

POSTED BY: GNOC
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 06:41
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6389
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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 6:30 AM

Wow, after watching if the second time I have some major questions that I am scared have no answers.

First of all:
Simon and the bounty hunter (forgot his name; loved his character). When Simon says are you alliance and he relpies something about a lion and Simon repeats and the guy says something like Weird. Then he asks if he is a bounty hunter he says no and then says he is a bounty hunter. What is going on here? Is River in his brain making say things?

Second:
The Shepard. Saying he doesn't care if she is innocent. When the Bounty hunter sees him with Simon and he says- that ain't no shepard. We all know there is something up with Shepard. But, is he evil? Did he leave the gun laying in the cargo hall for River to find? If he is bad, why does river have a relationship with him?

What a great episode. Has to be one of my favorites. But, what a way to end the series. I hope the bounty hunter lived. He was a great character.. very funny and disturbing.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:06 AM

SPOOKYJESUS

Nicely spotted with the Early (Bounty Hunter) and River simularities in there speech's ect. River could well be manipulating his mind but I think, with the context of everything that Joss was trying to say in that episode (listen to the commentary rather than read my ranting's about Joss' genious) I think that the rants from Early were part of his character.

Early's a hunter - very connected to his surroundings, in tune with his enviroment - who spends alot of time by himself in his little ship and as such comes up with little muses about the universe "Is a room still a room if there's no body in it?"

Joss used him as a contrast element to River who in this episode is in the process of being accepted by the Serenity family - and finding her place within the ship (an object that she's still relating to - off setting Early's hunter eyes reading the place and it's inhabitants.

I LOVE THIS EPISODE and I could rant all day but the rants would be long and boring and difficult to read with sense.

Watch the episode again with audio commentary - more things will make sense when you understand the statement that Joss was trying to make with this one.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:18 AM

GNOC

how do you turn the commentary on?

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:20 AM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by gnoc:
how do you turn the commentary on?

Go to the languages menu

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:41 AM

SKYDANCE

First: I think it's two interlaced conversations, but I haven't untangled them (yet). His "no, that isn't it" is an answer to some internal dialog or earlier question (perhaps related to "imbue"). Simon takes it as an answer to his question, so he asks what Early is. Early responds directly to this question: "I'm a Bounty Hunter."

Second: "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent; so where does that leave you?"

It appears to be said to River, but it might not have anything to do with her. It's a reading of something central to the man, remember. It might be an internal feeling related to Jayne. Maybe Jayne was involved in killing Book's partner, back when he was an active Alliance agent? Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer ....

Assume it was a comment about River, though. River's Big Stuff. Supersecret. What if Book is part of a faction that opposes the Blue Hands? A political faction, perhaps, or maybe something more like the rivalry between the CIA and the FBI. Or, something like the Vatican Special Forces (which was a theoretical secret organisation created in one movie I saw, once upon a time).

No matter what Book's past, when he met Kaylee, she noticed he was "looking at the ships, not the destinations." What if he was looking for a specific Firefly, based on its description? He might be helping them, but that doesn't mean he's not also spying on them at the same time ....

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 9:22 AM

BADGERSHAT

Hey folks--

As always, The Hat is here to lend a few cents.

I think, based on what I've read, that everyone on this site might well be near-genius level. The questions are brilliant, the responses they generate more so, and so far, everyone seems not only intelligent but RESPECTFUL of other people's ideas and opinions.

That being said--

I think Early is just plain nuts. He's alone most of the time, and probably is on the edge of sheer insanity. Listening to his responses, and that whole "freak out" sequence while he's yakking with River (the quick cuts with his weird faces, etc), it leads me to conclude that he's a half step from Reaverville... but I digress.

About Book and his odd statement in River's perception...
I think it's impossible to figure this guy out. He's either a good guy with some weirdness, or a bad guy play-acting, or neither, or both (did that clear it up for you?).

Personally, I think he's sort of a mix between Alliance spy, and refugee on the lam... with a slight possibility of being the Dude In Charge (We've never seen or heard anything about an Alliance President, have we?). Maybe he's out scoping the terrain, or perhaps he had the same conditioning as River, but successfully, and KNEW where she'd be... but he's assigned to see how far HER conditioning went before reporting back to the Alliance... or perhaps he a sort of Yoda, where he knows about her ordeal, and is there on behalf of a Rebellion type group, trying to slowly correct her Alliance induced problems...

I could go on and on, but I'd probably crash the site...

-The Hat

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 10:02 AM

WOOBABY

Slightly off topic but...

In Objects:
I have always wondered why River doesn’t get a “psychic impression” off of Kaylee? It appears that she gets impressions off of everyone else.

~ Woobaby
"You may be the universe's butt-puppet, but I am its right-hand Fist Of Fate."
-Wonderfalls

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 10:13 AM

BADGERSHAT

I always assumed it had something to do with the fact that Kaylee was the only one who saw the shooting incident, and had such a strong fear and avoidance of River after it...

Maybe her sense of fear caused some sort of mental shielding type thing, that block River from getting an impression from Kaylee?

Also, going back to Book's thoughts--keep in mind that not all of the imnpressions River got were about her. Mal and Inara's impressions had nothing to do with River, they were about each other (I think). So maybe Book's thoughts were about something with Jayne, or maybe Book is a whacko going crazy, talking to people who aren't there (a la the New York City Subway).

Or maybe I don't have the slightest idea what the hell I'm talking about.

--The Hat

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 10:17 AM

MILORADELL

Quote:
I have always wondered why River doesn’t get a “psychic impression” off of Kaylee? It appears that she gets impressions off of everyone else.

I noticed that myself, and I think it's because with Kaylee, what you see is what you get. There isn't anything hidden.

****
I know your name, Jackass.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 10:17 AM

ZELDA

Perhaps because Kaylee is the only one with nothing to hide? She seems to be more honest & direct than anyone else on the ship.

Besides, she doesn't really get a personality-read off of Zoe & Wash either... In the end it probably just boils down to a combination of plausibility & what the writers wanted to reveal.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 12:15 PM

KARENKAY99

Quote:
Originally posted by gnoc:

Second:
The Shepard. Saying he doesn't care if she is innocent. When the Bounty hunter sees him with Simon and he says- that ain't no shepard. We all know there is something up with Shepard. But, is he evil? Did he leave the gun laying in the cargo hall for River to find? If he is bad, why does river have a relationship with him?

What a great episode. Has to be one of my favorites.

one of my favorite episodes too. ah heck, it is my fav.

like others have expressed, i don't think the quote is directed to river. i think it's something he said, either past or future, taken out of context.

if past, could be a clue to his past. hmnnn...
if future, could be anything. hmnnn again...

also, i always wondered where the gun came from too. the conversation between mal and jayne has me convinced there is something we don't know. if it was just a gun laying around then i don't think the question would have been raised by mal.

also, i love how book quickly comes to rivers defense. kaylee is explaining how river 'does the math' and book says 'she probably saved your life'. does he seem a little angry? hmnnn...

i hope this makes sense. on 3rd glass of wine.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 4:26 PM

MALICIOUS

I think Jubal Early could very easily slip into Reaver's shoes. He's a bit of a sadist/sociopath and can obviously function in what passes as society in space, but he is not a good-guy.

Book may or may not be a real shepherd, but he IS truly kind. i feel that he may possibly have been a lesser man in the past and could be atoning for it, but is definitely not faking his goodness. He is very fatherly, in a tough-love kind of way. If he was alliance in the past, the crew of Firefly will cure him of it!

Kaylee is just a ray of sunshine and reflects that in her thoughts. River doesn't need to "read" her to know that, but she probably has read her deeply and saw that previously.

Objects in Space and Out of Gas are the ones I like the most, but it is absurd to think you can pick just one or two as the best. I don't even have a least favorite. Maybe Jaynestown, but even that is excellent! See? I can't pick a bad one!

Would you pour me a glass of merlot, please?

Mal-licious

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 5:15 PM

JEBBYPAL

One comment about book's reading. I think that if you consider the fact that Book has previously always protected individuals that were threatened by the crew out of "religious" feelings, his statement might simply indicate that for him river/jayne/whoever's actions can't be judged by him no matter how distasteful he may find them (eg his assertion that Reavers are men and that the left behind kid in bushwacked can be saved). By his belief system (newfound or not), judgement will come in the afterlife not at the hands of men.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 5:32 PM

BLAZINGBUG

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I think River's telepathy is kind of "poetic."

Simon says they removed the section of her brain that allowed her to push things to the back of her mind. I think what River picks up are exactly those thoughts in other people, whatever dark thoughts they have pushed to the back of their mind.

Kaylee isn't read because she doesn't do that; there's nothing that she doesn't show. It's probably why she becomes River's closest friend.

Wash and Zoe have their minds caught up in a moment of passion that fills the front, back, middle, and all the nooks and cranies of their minds.

Of the rest, Book is the only one whose comment I don't fully understand or have a specific theory on. I just go with the general "dark past he is trying to escape."

"Wacky fun..."

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 6:20 PM

DELIA

Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
About Book and his odd statement in River's perception...
I think it's impossible to figure this guy out. He's either a good guy with some weirdness, or a bad guy play-acting, or neither, or both (did that clear it up for you?).

Actually, I think it may be one of the best one sentence summations of a character I've ever seen. Plus, it made me smile.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 11:41 PM

SASJA

Quote:
Originally posted by BlazingBug:
Of the rest, Book is the only one whose comment I don't fully understand or have a specific theory on.

So what's your theory on Mal and Inara?

There's obviously a common element to the readings - are they as suggested here something the "readee" has pushed to the back of his mind? Or, as suggested in another thread, regrets? Both sort of fit the only two clear cases (to my mind), viz. Jayne ("I got stupid. The money was too good." - turning on the Tams in Ariel) and Simon ("I would be there right now" - having left his successful life behind to save his sister).

Then there are the readings from Inara ("I'm a big girl. Just tell me") and Mal ("None of it means a damn thing"). Could they be talking to each other, perhaps? I don't think so. They're obviously not facing each other, but that could just be the way the reading works. Inara's line could perhaps mean: "If you don't love me just say so". But I must say that I don't find it all too convincing that the companion wouldn't already be aware that in fact Mal likes her very much - and she's just taken the consequence of her own love for him and is just about to leave. And what's "None of it means a damn thing" supposed to mean as directed to Inara?

I think from what we've seen of Mal, this fits best as an echo of his disillusionment and despair after the Serenity battle, fitting both the bill of what he pushes to the back of his mind and what his biggest regret is. So how can "I'm a big girl. Just tell me" refer to Inara's regrets or repressions? My best bet is that we've yet to be told - that it refers to Inara's mysterious past and perhaps to the very reason she left Sihnon.

I hate the fact that this is the very last episode - it gives you such a thirst after more that it's almost unbearable.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 12:13 AM

STATIC

Here's my some-odd cents thrown in. . .

I think everyone is spot-on with the notion that you don't get a 'reading' off Kaylee because Kaylee doesn't supress anything. This also ties in to the idea that Joss had in making the Kaylee character "The Heart of Serenity." He also says, "If Kaylee says that's how it is, then that's how it is." (audio commentary: Serenity)

Regarding everyone else. . .here's MY spin on it.

As Simon says (Simon says touch your nose!)in 'Ariel', they removed her amigdila(sp?) which is the part of the brain that allows you to push certain emotions to the back of your head in order to maintain focus. (quote: "She feels EVERYTHING. She can't NOT!) I like the notion that this (in addition to other things done to her) allows her to read things that are 'pushed back' for various and sundry reasons. Let's break it down. . .

Simon: "I would be there right now." Now then. . .he's probably suppressing this thought very heavily because he KNOWS that he'd give up everything again and again and again for his beloved sister. . .and when the thought "Boy I wish I were still back in my old life." flashes through his head, he feels INTENSE pangs of guilt and pushes that thought way, way back. Sean Maher (like the rest) is such an insanely talented and compelling actor. . .watch the ep. again. When he talks LATER about his life on Osiris, the guilt is evident in his face.

Jayne: "I got stupid. The money was too good." Once again. . .Adam Baldwin is an incredible actor. It amazes me that he's one of the great 'untapped talents' of Hollywood. . .never being in more than a secondary role for most of his career. Watch "Ariel" again. When he's in the room with Simon and River and Simon is giving an explanation of what's been done to River, you see it begin to dawn on Jayne, "Holy hell, what have I done?" In fact, I think the only reason he continues to commit to his plan is because he figures it's his only way out now. He has a near-nauseated expression when Simon thanks him for trying to help them right after their arrest, and he asks Mal not to tell the truth of his actions because he is so deeply shamed by them. He even 'pays penance' by buying the apples. The guilt of his decision causes him to push THAT to the back of his mind.

Book: "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?" It's been widely accepted that Book has a past as a signifigant military or law enforcement figure, with a dark past. . .one such that he entered the priesthood to escape it. He probably pushes his 'sins' to the back of his head all the time in an effort to forge ahead in his new life.

Zoe/Wash: Okay. . .anyone who has ever been caught up in the throes of passion, especially passion with one you love so completely as Wash and Zoe love one another knows. . .when you are experiencing that passion, the only thing that occupies ANY part of your mind is that very passion. This has been pointed out already, and I need not elaborate. (Especially since we have some board members under the age of 18.

)

Inara: "I'm a big girl, just tell me." We've discussed at length Inara's past. Given sketchy evidence from the episodes and the commentary, Inara may be unwell. It's almost a given that EVERYONE on Serenity has SOMETHING in their past that has led them 'to the black'. We're pretty sure that her comment was ORIGINALLY directed at a doctor or somesuch. However, with such a Sword of Damocles hanging over her head, I'm certain she tries to forget the moment of that revelation as much as possible. Pretty sure she's not talking to Mal about confessing love, because that's pretty much what he DID at the end of "Heart of Gold" which takes place immediately before "OiS".

Mal: "None of it means a damn thing." THIS might be the easiest. Mal has been 'hollowed out' inside by loss upon loss upon loss, from the war, to his faith, to most recently Nandy and Inara (in one day, even.) He's constantly commenting on how their efforts hardly ever work out, or at least never the way they want it to. (How come it never goes smooth?) Mal is a man constantly just a single step ahead of complete despair it would seem. I think his thought "None of it means a damn thing." is the one thought he's trying so hard to keep supressed, because if he ever accepts that notion, he'll begin the descent into despair that he can't escape, which would lead to him failing his crew.

WHEW!!!! I hope everyone stuck with me on that. Feel free to bash or call me a maroon or whatever if you disagree.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 3:37 AM

SPOOKYJESUS

The key thing to remember about this episode is that it’s all about relationships - relationship between both people and thing - between objects in space, as Early said at the start - “We’re all just floating”.

We explore all of these relationships through River - as she walks around the ship touching it with her hands and feet as she goes. River walks in on all of our characters who are in the middle of showing how there relationships function within their groups.

Kayle’s legs are resting on top of Simon’s as they flirt with each other -
Jayne and Book, who we’ve previously seen working out together, are in the middle of a very manly conversation-
Zoe and Wash are acting like a happily married couple-
Mal and Inara are having a discussion full of sexual tension-

River takes something different from each of them - from her brother it’s regret for the loss of their old home,
From Jayne it’s danger about their new one,
From Book it’s mystery about the people she lives with.
What knocks her out of this cycle is the contrast between Zoe and Wash acting like married people and the sexual tension between Mal and Inara - the telepathy starts to break down (as we can hear on the soundtrack) as Inara “tells” River that she’s leaving the group and she’ll be fine on her own - “I’m a big girl”.

The rest of the episode revolves around the contrast between River and Early - everything River does until the end of the show can be seen in Early’s speeches and actions.

River picks up the gun - an object she associates more with a broken piece of nature than with mortal death.

Early later tells Simon that he likes the object that is the gun. He says it’s pretty, designed well, functional and has a nice weight to it. He cares more for the object than for the gun itself.
Early even iterates River’s plan to an extent “the plan is not to shoot you.”

Like River, Early also understands - but he doesn’t comprehend - thinking Simon asked “Are you a lion?” - he understood the language but it didn’t register properly with him.

There is so much at work in this episode we could keep this going for days......

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 4:08 AM

SOUTHERNMERC

One thing most folks miss in TV (or movie) viewing is the soundtrack, the background noises. For some reason, I pick up on the music and background sounds in a program very intensely. I have very poor eyesight (20/400), maybe that has something to do with it? Who knows. ANNNYyway, if you listen to all the sounds in the background when River is doing the psychic waltz through the crew, the sounds change to announce her beginning to read them. The music also changes slightly: sometimes it's not there, sometimes it appears to emphasize what is happening. Try watching OIS again, don't listen to dialog, but listen specifically for music and sound cues. Those will tell you alot about the moods of the crew, and River, whenever they are speaking. Of special interest is when: Jubal makes his descent onto Serenity; River reads Book; the crew has the big discussion about River; Jubal takes out Book. Pay attention, in the Navy (as I'm sure they do in the other services) they teach "attention to detail" and it becomes your motto. Look at everything. Examine what you see and hear, never assume you know what you see. Look at it again, but do so with the mindset of "I have never seen this before, what is it like?" Of the scenes I listed, there is something there, hiding in the background in plain sight, that gives you a piece of information. That piece may not be what you think it is (remember the needle Joss points out in the pilot)?

Jayne: "How big a room?"

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 4:09 AM

BLAZINGBUG

Um, wow. If you want my theories, just read Static's post. Man saved me a lot of typing.

A little exposition though.

Book: I think Book's quote may be related to a very specific event. The context of his words tend to imply a point in his life where the ends justified the means. Like some people think, it could even be related to the Battle of Serenity, something he was willing to do to win the battle. Perhaps it was something he was willing to do to win the battle, knowing it would win the war, and end any further killing. Then he has to watch as men on both sides die from being left alone for a week while the politicians wheel and deal. He sacrificed his values to save lives, only to see those lives thrown away. Could lead a man to religion. Who knows.

"Wacky fun..."

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 2:32 PM

MALICIOUS

OR could it be as simple as Joss wanting to incorporate a repeat of Mal's "earlier"** order to River of "No touching guns!" as she later advises Zoe...?

**=(get it? Jubal Early?)

Mal-licious

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Thursday, April 15, 2004 7:08 AM

SPOOKYJESUS

Yeah - that's where she gets her plan from - Joss says as much on the commentary.

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Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:21 AM

HIGHIRON02

Quote:
Originally posted by SouthernMerc:
Jubal makes his descent onto Serenity;

What an interesting turn of a phrase. This one really made me stop and think.

We got you partially surrounded.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:41 AM

LAILING

With all due respect, I don't think anyone has stopped to really observe Book and the things that he says and does or remembered to take them in context - the context of his society. Therefore, here's my opinion and my reasoning behind it.
1. Book takes certain things literally that many would not: "Hey, grandpa!" "I'm sorry, I've never married". Most would understand that the speaker was addressing him in reference to his age, not his marital status - meaning, "Hey, Old Man".
2. His conversation with Inara at the end of the pilot.
MY CONCLUSION: Book spent a sheltered or even cloistered life in the abbey.

1. He has some knowledge of tactics and the military.
2. His speech and body language do not indicate someone of high rank or who has been in command.
MY CONCLUSION: Book's order may have provided Sanctuary or Asylum that he had to be prepared to fight to ensure - or his order may have been a fighting unit in the war which remained isolated from regular troops (sorta like the Knights Templars of the Crusades), but Book, while trained in tactics, never himself held a command.

3. If Book's order regularly or frequently provided Asylum, they probably believed that a person is innocent until proven guilty, or in the innate goodness of a person until proven otherwise.
4. If Book's order fought in the war, they probably believed in the rightness of their actions
MY CONCLUSION: Something may have happened that made him lose his faith - a person given Asylum who turned out guilty, or realizing they fought for the "wrong" side in the war. At that point, he or his superiors may have realized that Book either had no place in the abbey anymore, or that any answers to be found couldn't be found there. Either way, he left and ended up in a society he doesn't really understand how to interact in.

MY THEORY AS TO THE MEANING OF THE THOUGHT RIVER PICKED UP ON IN "OBJECTS IN SPACE": "I don't give a hump if you're innocent or not; so where does that leave you?" I think he's saying that he's lost his faith in himself: "I don't care...", and, if HE, a man of God specifically trained to give someone the benefit of the doubt, doesn't care whether someone is innocent, then where DOES that leave the other person? Up Sh*t's Creek, more than likely! And, just as importantly, where does it leave Book?

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