Mal and Zoe by paintitblack

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Mal and Zoe

POSTED BY: PAINTITBLACK
UPDATED: Sunday, November 25, 2007 02:14
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VIEWED: 17280
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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:42 AM

PLATONIST

What about Mal/Wash? I couldn't even type that one!

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 12:20 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueBomber:
Quote:
Originally posted by bullet0in0the0brainpan0squish:

Can anyone tell me Zoe's rank? In the "The Message" she addressed Tracey as "Private", which implies she had a higher rank than him.

I've been told there is a deleted scene in "Serenity" where her name appears on a list as Corporal Zoe Alleyne. (Maybe someone with the DVD or the Official Firefly Companion can verify this, since I don't have it yet myself. I know. I'm so ashamed.)

On page 92 of the Visual Companion right after the Operative crosses to Mal's military record, he goes to Zoe's which has her rank and maiden name as mentioned above, and he says in effect that she seems to have been career army (small case Army). At least part of this scene was in the CE as extended scenes, Joss commented about how much they reworked this scene and why it was excised.

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 2:34 AM

AMDOBELL

I love the bond between Mal and Zoe, it is like bedrock. I think what was so defining for them during the War was the way in which they came to such a deep understanding of each other. A friendship born of so many things and appreciation of each other's skills and qualities that mesh and compliment one to the other in ways that fill any lack. I think that as damaged and broken as war and loss made them, sticking together makes them complete. Gives them back a compass that will be forever be true. It isn't about sex, never was, it is much deeper and more fundamental than scratching nature's urge. This is soul deep and for the most part unspoken. It is why I think Zoe cannot define her relationship with Mal to Wash. She isn't hiding anything, it is just that what binds them is so deep, so instinctive, it is beyond words. It just *is* and I think Zoe sometimes gets irritated with Wash for wanting it to be quantified, brought out into the harsh light of curious eyes, instead of just accepting it which is what she does.

I also think that because Mal and Zoe know each other so well, have watched each other's backs through more sticky situations that you could shake a stick at, it is natural for them to carry on doing it afterwards. They trust each other implicitly and I don't think either would want anyone else taking that role on for them. It is why Mal tells Wash that he will always take Zoe with him on jobs, he doesn't explain why because it isn't something he would ever want to voice and to his mind should be so obvious as to not need explaining. It just *is*. Zoe always understood that some things Mal would never put into words and she is the same. They communicate so much through a look and I think that unspoken connection irked Wash because he felt excluded by it and being the husband felt somehow cheated out of something that was never his. War Stories was such a brilliant vehicle for addressing not only his insecurities but his understanding of what made the bond between his wife and his Captain work.

As for rank, Zoe was a Corporal. Although described as 'career army' she was never in it for the ambition of rank. There was a job to do and she would do it. Mal, though far more impulsive than Zoe in the field was a natural leader, able to think quickly on his feet and inspire others to follow. Zoe quickly grasped that men would natually follow him whether or not his plan was a good one. Mal was the one making plans, being decisive and instilling confidence in others to do the impossible. If Zoe had wanted to go up the ranks she could have done and no one could have touched her but she would not have been happy, it would not have been her element. I think she watched and assessed and made the practical decision to follow Mal and once she had done so found that by watching his back and filling in any gaps left by his over abundance of confidence meant they both came through it to live and fight another day. Zoe found her element in Mal. She knows he isn't perfect and isn't shy in telling him up front and bluntly when he is being stupid (ie "Sir, I think you have a problem with your brain being missing"). But the lattitude Mal gives her is not something he accords anyone else and she knows that.

Ali D :~)
You can't take the sky from me...

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 7:22 AM

MERRYK

Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Mal/Zoe, Mal/River, Mal/Jayne, Mal/Simon, Mal/Kaylee, Mal/Fantasy OC, Mal/Saffron, Mal/Inara...for a guy that supposedly has intimacy issues, he sure does see a lot of play!

Mal/Simon I get, but...Mal/Jayne?

I only get Mal/Simon if it's a friendship/male bonding thing...they do have an intriguing relationship. I just don't see the Firefly fabric (I agree, great term) having slash among the crew, no matter what happened on Buffy.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 7:56 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Mal/Zoe, Mal/River, Mal/Jayne, Mal/Simon, Mal/Kaylee, Mal/Fantasy OC, Mal/Saffron, Mal/Inara...for a guy that supposedly has intimacy issues, he sure does see a lot of play!

Mal/Simon I get, but...Mal/Jayne?

I only get Mal/Simon if it's a friendship/male bonding thing...they do have an intriguing relationship. I just don't see the Firefly fabric (I agree, great term) having slash among the crew, no matter what happened on Buffy.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

I could see River being gay, easily!

I can also see a lot of other homosexual episodes happening between characters on the show.

Mal just isn't one of the characters I see this happening with. He has issues with men and issues with authority and issues with abuse of authority. I just don't see it happening.

Now, Kaylee, River, Inara and Zoe, easily. Jayne is very gender-indiscriminate anyway, so I can see that.

Simon... as easily as with a woman, actually, which is still not easy, as Kaylee will tell you.

Wash, not at all. Book, nope.

Come to think of it, The men are much harder to imagine that way than the women, to me. I think this has to do with the powerplay between them. The women are all much more relaxed about status and sexuality.

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:01 AM

MERRYK

Ok, so I can see Kaylee and Inara liking both, maybe...I just don't see it happening on the show. Same with Simon. I just don't think Joss would have gone there, at least not fully. Hints, sure, but not anything else.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:14 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Ok, so I can see Kaylee and Inara liking both, maybe...I just don't see it happening on the show. Same with Simon. I just don't think Joss would have gone there, at least not fully. Hints, sure, but not anything else.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

Okay, I'll agree that the show wouldn't have explored all that would theoretically be plausible for the characters. Certainly not the guys so much, simply because of viewer reactions.

Except maybe River. *g*

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:19 AM

KIRKULES

I just can't get past the huge stake through the heart thing. It's seems like it screams, this dude is dead!(or is that just when its a wooden stake)

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 10:55 AM

PLATONIST

I think River could have some MAJOR intimacy issues, regardless of her orientation. More so than even Mal and Inara, if that is humanly possible. How could she trust anyone, after what she has gone through?

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 1:08 PM

AMDOBELL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I just can't get past the huge stake through the heart thing. It's seems like it screams, this dude is dead!(or is that just when its a wooden stake)

I had to smile at you wondering whether Wash would only be dead had the stake through the heart been wooden. Makes me keep thinking about Dobson, come on, he was shot in the head after all yet he gets to live again! So I have my fingers crossed for Wash, if there is ever another BDM I think Joss will find a way to bring back his character. And not al la Dallas with that whole 'dreamt of it in the shower' *goushi*.

Ali D :~)
You can't take the sky from me...

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 1:28 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by AMDOBELL:
Quote:
So I have my fingers crossed for Wash, if there is ever another BDM I think Joss will find a way to bring back his character.

I hope your right, Wash was my favorite character and I have the Hawaiian shirts to prove it. All I ask is that Wash's resurrection doesnt defy all reason.

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 2:11 PM

AMDOBELL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by AMDOBELL:
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So I have my fingers crossed for Wash, if there is ever another BDM I think Joss will find a way to bring back his character.

I hope your right, Wash was my favorite character and I have the Hawaiian shirts to prove it. All I ask is that Wash's resurrection doesnt defy all reason.

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

Me too, Kirkrules. Did make me laugh you having all those Hawaiin shirts. Shiny!

Ali D :~)
You can't take the sky from me...

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 2:24 PM

NBZ

Quote:
Originally posted by AMDOBELL:
So I have my fingers crossed for Wash, if there is ever another BDM I think Joss will find a way to bring back his character.

If he does, I will be pissed. It would be one more time that meaningless death was used to just pull emotional strings.

IMO if anyone wants to kill of a character, they should have the nerve to leave it dead.

I like Wash, just don't want another cop out - Angel and Buffy were different as they had revolving doors around death - but Firefly is not supposed to be them.

IMO Bringing him back would cheapen the current BDM.

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 2:26 PM

SHINYSEVEN2

agentrouka: well, I'm a Mal/Simon kinda gal myself, which would be a fast and handy explanation about why Kaylee got nowhere with Simon in the TV series.

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Friday, November 23, 2007 3:29 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by shinyseven2:
agentrouka: well, I'm a Mal/Simon kinda gal myself, which would be a fast and handy explanation about why Kaylee got nowhere with Simon in the TV series.

Hell, even if Simon was 100% gay and Kaylee was the prettiest boy ever in the world, their issues weren't about sexual orientation. They were about personality clashes and situational... inconvenience.

While I can see Mal/Simon from Simon's POV, I just can't see it from Mal's. Too paternal, the way he treats him. Squicks me. Unless it's some kind of dark, angry and loveless sexual thing. But even then, Mal has sex issues, so...

I think about this entirely too much. *g*

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Friday, November 23, 2007 4:14 AM

SHINYSEVEN2

Mal really isn't much older than Simon (my estimate is seven years) and, while Mal has seen some terribly ugly things, I expect that being a trauma surgeon doesn't provide an endless parade of sweetness and light either. And while neither of them is perfect, I think that they each recognize that the other is a person of some stature, and has qualities he can benefit from himself. So it wouldn't have to head in a dark, loveless direction.

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Friday, November 23, 2007 4:29 AM

PAINTITBLACK

Its been a very long time since I started this thread, and it has been wonderful to see the ways that it has developed. Like I said at the beginning, I love the way that Mal and Zoe's relationship is but I have major sympathy for Wash's feelings regarding it. I do not think that Wash is an inherently insecure guy: Jealousy can rear its head even in the most well-rounded and solid people--Zoe was very put out in Our Mrs. Reynolds by the idea that Wash might be attracted to a wife who lived to serve, something that is very, very different from her own personality.
I think that it is funny that people are horrified even by the thought that Mal and Zoe, two attractive and passionate people, might have ever looked at each other as anything but fellow combatants and, later, close friends.
Would it really undermine their relationship if they had once been together romantically? Feelings and people change, and Mal certainly changed a great deal in the years after Serenity.

Personally, I think that Mal is jealous of Wash and Zoe's relationship--he advised her against marrying--not because of romantic feelings but because he fears that her loyalty will be torn. Zoe, in contrast, does not seem to be possesive of him in the same way, perhaps because she cannot imagine anyone else taking her place.

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Friday, November 23, 2007 5:09 AM

SHINYSEVEN2

I think that Mal is jealous of Zoe's ability to move on and form a mutually loving relationship.

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Friday, November 23, 2007 6:08 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by shinyseven2:
Mal really isn't much older than Simon (my estimate is seven years) and, while Mal has seen some terribly ugly things, I expect that being a trauma surgeon doesn't provide an endless parade of sweetness and light either. And while neither of them is perfect, I think that they each recognize that the other is a person of some stature, and has qualities he can benefit from himself. So it wouldn't have to head in a dark, loveless direction.

It's not so much who they are, it's how I see them relating to sex, gender and each other. I don't see a happy, loving, healthy Mal/Simon.

But that's just me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. ;)

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Friday, November 23, 2007 6:27 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by paintitblack:

Would it really undermine their relationship if they had once been together romantically? Feelings and people change, and Mal certainly changed a great deal in the years after Serenity.

To me... yes, it would undermine their relationship. Both within the context of the show and in terms of being something refreshing and unique on tv.

If you put sex in there, even if it was in the past, you negate the idea that such an almost unfathomably strong bond can exist between a man and a woman that isn't connected to sex, romance or blood relation. Those two having no sexual and/or romantic interest in each other is a large part of the appeal to me.

And I don't think it would work with how these two approach romantic relationships. They don't act like people who have shared a greater intimacy with each other and easily let it go again to be "just friends". They bond very strongly, both, so why wouldn't they talk like former lovers instead of superior-subordinate? Zoe never challenges his superior status, but I cannot see her entering a relationship with someone who is not on an equal level. Nor Mal, the other way around.
The way they both fumble with intimacy with other people (Zoe with Wash, Mal with Inara) implies they have little concept of how to allow that sort of emotional intimacy outside a professional level.

Lastly, looking at who they are in love with at present... they're just no each other's type. *g*

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Friday, November 23, 2007 11:44 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
To me... yes, it would undermine their relationship. Both within the context of the show and in terms of being something refreshing and unique on tv.

If you put sex in there, even if it was in the past, you negate the idea that such an almost unfathomably strong bond can exist between a man and a woman that isn't connected to sex, romance or blood relation. Those two having no sexual and/or romantic interest in each other is a large part of the appeal to me.

Can't say it better than that.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, November 23, 2007 11:57 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
To me... yes, it would undermine their relationship. Both within the context of the show and in terms of being something refreshing and unique on tv.

If you put sex in there, even if it was in the past, you negate the idea that such an almost unfathomably strong bond can exist between a man and a woman that isn't connected to sex, romance or blood relation. Those two having no sexual and/or romantic interest in each other is a large part of the appeal to me.
Can't say it better than that.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

You flatter me.

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Friday, November 23, 2007 3:31 PM

MERRYK

Quote:
AgentRouka said: It's not so much who they are, it's how I see them relating to sex, gender and each other. I don't see a happy, loving, healthy Mal/Simon.

Have to say, I think this is the point. Mal and Simon are just too alike in character in most ways, and what's different is too clashing. Slash in general has never appealed to me if it's not canon, usually because it seems like you have to look too hard to see it.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 2:14 AM

PAINTITBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by paintitblack:

Would it really undermine their relationship if they had once been together romantically? Feelings and people change, and Mal certainly changed a great deal in the years after Serenity.

To me... yes, it would undermine their relationship. Both within the context of the show and in terms of being something refreshing and unique on tv.

If you put sex in there, even if it was in the past, you negate the idea that such an almost unfathomably strong bond can exist between a man and a woman that isn't connected to sex, romance or blood relation. Those two having no sexual and/or romantic interest in each other is a large part of the appeal to me.

Fair enough, but I think that it actually makes that point more. If they were never attracted to each other, and went through the experience of war together, a strong relationship is almost a given. But, if they have already had a physical relationship but, for whatever reason, have decided not to pursue it and instead become close on an entirely different level, that says more to me about the bond between them. I have seen many male/female relationships that are very strong and never were sexual because they simply did not like each other in that way, but the ones that really impressed me are those involving people who were attracted to each other but, for the sake of maintaining the friendship, decided not to go there. But thats just me folks!

Quote:
Zoe never challenges his superior status, but I cannot see her entering a relationship with someone who is not on an equal level. Nor Mal, the other way around.
Lastly, looking at who they are in love with at present... they're just no each other's type. *g*

Well, those are excellent points, but I think that people can cycle in and out of a professional and personal way of dealing with each other. Zoe does play the "yes sir" role but she also makes more than enough comments to suggest that she is not entirely sure of Mal's brilliant plans! In my humble opinion, Zoe is the only person that Mal sees as his equal, and vice versa.
On your last, very funny point, look at Mal (in just woken up no shirt on mode) and Zoe (in those impressive pants)--is there anyone in the world who would not be attracted to those two!

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