What relationships would work? by MerryK

Personally, I tend to agree with you, Whitesilence, but that really does fall under interpretation. I've read that before, and I still waver over whether River and Jayne would ever be attracted to each other, though I have no doubt that it would work if they got together.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 2:00 PM

ROMANCEGURU

Very interesting all around, especially the last bit.

As for the attraction between R&J, I guess that would be up to the puppet master. ; )

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 3:14 PM

Thanks for starting this, MerryK!

Here is my take, which is a little different,

Zoë and Wash, committed yes, but with underlying problems. Zoë is unable or unwilling to break away from her role as Serenity's 1st officer. And it is not the kind of job that is conducive to family life, not much balance, considering that her job entails, getting shot at and all. She wants to start a family, yes, but doesn't seem to change her behavior to meet her goals. Her and Wash would need to leave in order for them to build a meaningful life together. They were definitely on different pages, during HOG, in regards to baby making...ironically, I thought this was one of the weakest relationships on the ship. Wash wants her; she WANTS everything, with not a lot of prioritizing or sacrificing. They are nice and polite, when they fight, but that doesn't necessary equal long-lasting relationship.

Simon and Kaylee, very sweet together, if Kaylee could grow out of her insecurities, they would have a good chance.

Mal and Inara, personality wise (both understand self possession and the need for independence) good match... and sexual attraction... oh, yeah. Both are comfortable with the Mom and Dad role of Serenity. Mal is protective and Inara is nuturing.
Negative points; both are stubborn, dishonest with their feelings, and too proud (that's why they argue) they would need couples counseling, till the end of time, unless they surrender to a loving relationship, and get beyond their old habits.

River and Jayne, purely speculation, I don't know...They sure would be hilarious together.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 3:19 PM

NBZ

I'm interested.

How do River and Jayne's personalities complement?

Maybe it is because I read Jayne differently, but I cannot even see a "sibling rivalry" between the two that some others have previously suggested. In my vision of the 'verse, Jayne barely tolerates River. if he could get rid of her without getting blamed, he would.

(I do however not believe Jayne to be stupid or emotionless.)

I agree with your other analysis. Simon/Kaylee can work, but I find most interpretations to be too sickly sweet. This will never be the romance they write poems about.

As for Zoe/Wash - they are real. real people with real problems making a real go of it. Each has issues, (Wash saying he could not stand his wife kissing the dirt did hint at his underlying insecurity, later probed in War Stories) but they can either be overcome or ignored. Apart from the dead thing. Zoe don't strike me as the necrophilia type. But since I have never met one...

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 3:47 PM

Interesting analysis, Platonist. I don't agree with your take on Zoe and Wash...I see their family issues as being a matter of being on the same page in ideal, but not agreeing on how to carry it out. Wash thinks the ship is no place for a family, Zoe thinks it will work. I don't see Zoe's stubbornness in thinking that Serenity is a good place for them as a problem with her relationship with Wash, though.

Ok, Jayne and River. Jayne is simple: he loves who he loves, hates who he hates, does what he things needs to be done, says what he means. He knows who and what he is, is usually good with it, and is not likely to change. He does show a moral compass, as well.

River is complex: her deep loves are rooted and unlikely to change, but her other emotions are like her namesake, rolling and shifting with the circumstances. Sometimes she is a weapon, sometimes a frightened child, sometimes a teasing sister, sometimes a genius, yet throughout there is a core of a strong young woman who is learning how to live. She appreciates the simple, because she sees all the complexities beneath even the smoothest of surfaces. She loves to dance because the steps are always the same. She clings to Simon because he loves her, and there's no complications to that (well, except for Kaylee, which is why she is troubled in OIS). She plays with Kaylee because she also is open and honest. She starts to forge something with Mal, but only after he's come to grips with who and what he is. She is frightened and confused by herself, until she understands her choice in what she does. In essence, she can't handle things not making sense. By the end of the BDM, she's made sense of herself, and can move on to doing so with the rest of the world.

Together, she and Jayne could conquer the world. Jayne, if he loves her, will love her as unconditionally as Simon, with no complications or illusions, like the rest of his life. He will always be there for her, and he won't change if the wind suddenly blows north. River needs someone like that in her life, and Simon deserves and needs to move on from that role. With Jayne as her anchor, River can branch out and use her mind to see patterns and solve problems, which is what she seems to do best.

I don't advocate Rayne, because normally it takes too quickly and the characters aren't in character. But I think those two could work together very well, in a variety of relationships, if Jayne added River to his idea of family. I don't see that as too huge of a step either, seeing his growth through the series and BDM.

As for Simon and Kaylee...I completely agree. They have a very tough road ahead of them, something most fanfics don't entirely address to my satisfaction.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 4:20 PM

NBZ

While I disagree, I do respect the fact that you have put a lot of thought into it.

One of the main reasons I hated Rayne was that it was thought of as a "default relationship" - something that could be done without much thought into the why. The fact that I could not see it also helped a lot.

I do not think Jayne is as simple as you say though. I also cannot see the honesty people see in him.

For instance, how did Dobson get that knife in the pilot? We do not know. There is every chance that Jayne had a hand in it - even though he denied it. (After Book knocked him unconscious, why would they not pat him down *thoroughly* for weapons?)(Additionally, did he contemplate shooting Mal in that Patience showdown?)

In Safe his lies look comical because the camera follows him (this happens a few times throughout the series). If you see it just from the Simon angle, there is nothing to be suspicious of. yet.

In Ariel he is only honest when his life depends on it. He also does show remorse and that is apart of his character.

The only time he shows a lack of hostility is when he is scared that the Tams may find out about his actions on Ariel.

He does see nobility in protecting River, he deeply resents this being forced upon him.

Saying all that, it is not a case against Rayne. What is is that Jayne is petrified of the unknown. This "unknown" includes both Reavers and River. (Yes, I am suggesting he has not physically come across them before.)

Your analysis of River - very interesting too. However where I would disagree is her place in the journey. So far she has been crazy and more or less just floated around. it is after the BDM where any character development may happen. It could go in a number of ways, but what we see at the end of the BDM is the beginning for River. She has been dragged through an ordeal. Now when she has a semblance of sanity (but not full sanity), she will have to cope with what has happened, the sacrifices that have been made because of her etc etc.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 7:25 PM

You have some points about Jayne. However, all those instances made me more convinced of Jayne's honest nature. Everyone lies, everyone holds something back, but some people, like Mal and Inara, do a good job at it, and others, like Simon and Jayne, do not. Jayne's actions in Safe, in Ariel, all are as clumsy as Simon's attempts at deception in Jaynestown...in fact, were it someone more perceptive than Simon in both those circumstances, he would not have gotten away. Mal, in any case, sees right through him. He's not a good liar, because he's generally honest. He says what he thinks.

I agree about opposing to Rayne as a default relationship. All the crew end up with relationships with each other, of some form or another, and I definitely think that River and Jayne have come to some sort of truce at the end of the BDM. I don't think this automatically means romance. However, a couple or a few years down the line, and given the right circumstances, I don't see it as an impossibility.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 9:06 PM

Wash clearly has his reservations about bringing a child in to his and Zoë’s lives on Serenity. Zoë almost seems to be demanding it. And it was obvious this was not their first conversation on the subject. She almost looks frustrated at this point because Wash is not yielding on this issue.
And it is unresolved by the time the movie rolls around and it is 6 months later.

I've seen the strongest of couples split over this issue. It is a biggie, right up there with marital finances and the frequency of sex. If the series would have continued and Wash lived, I think we would have seen ultimatums and or concessions made, which are never healthy in a relationship. Which leads me to believe, not all was well in paradise. Like I said, just my take, on two people thinking they want the same thing when they really don’t.

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 3:42 AM

SHINYSEVEN2

If we're only talking about het ships here...

I think Wash and Zoe have a great relationship (like Coach and Tami in Friday Night Lights!)--which doesn't mean that they are in 100% agreement about everything all the time. They really respect each other and *get* each other even though they're very different--they're not TOO different.

I won't even read a fic if it's labeled River/Jayne, I passionately hate this ship because apart from having had paranoid schizophrenia induced, River is brilliant and highly cultured. Jayne, apart from being a sociopath, is neither of these things.

Mal/Inara (deliberately) and Simon/Kaylee (through sheer clumsiness) have hurt each other so much that I don't see much hope for the relationship. They'd be better off with an even swap--Mal/Kaylee would, in effect, be a Mal/Kaylee/Serenity threesome, and Simon/Inara would have things to talk about while Playing By Civilized Rules.

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 7:44 AM

I wouldn't agree that hurting each other makes relationships a problem. Maybe with Mal and Inara because of the extreme bitterness and lack of apology, but with Simon and Kaylee the hurt has come in less quantity and less intensity than I have seen in real-life thriving relationships. At least the latter two own up to their problems and make up after each episode.

(I will admit to a guilty passing interest in Simon/Inara and Mal/Kaylee...but I don't think they would work in the long run.)

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 9:11 AM

RIVERFLAN

To quote myself from another thread:

I just can't abide Rayne. Or River/anybody. Or Jayne/anybody. That just doesn't make sense. And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened?

What you're saying does make sense, a little, at least about the interaction, but why does everyone have to put sex into the equation?! Sure, they could develop into being friends, and that could make sense, but I don't see why they would be romantically attracted to each other.

Also, River is mainly a peaceful person. She isn't proud of the episodes when she goes beserk. Jayne might have a little guilt about the people he killed, but he killed them when in consious control. River has to be triggered, or at least be faced with Reavers, in which case it isn't like killing people, more like putting down rabid animals.

Yes, River could probably accept having Jayne as her protector, and Simon does need a break from that, but what's the motivation for Jayne? And even if he did get some motivation for protacting River, why would they have to pair off? Simon didn't have to be having sex with River in order to care for her. Yeah, he's her brother, and sex would be just plain icky. But why do people think that in order to care for someone and not be related to them, you have to romantically involved? That's the impresion that I get, when coming across some of that fanfic-romance type stuff.

The only Rayne I can see is if they're just friends, and that needs a lot of time to develop.

About other relationships- I agree what you've been saying about Simon/Kaylee, Mal/Inara, and Zoe/Wash. I don't think that Simon and Inara could be romantically involved, because it would be awkward for Simon, but they could get along and have politically correct conversations and stuff. I don't think Mal/Kaylee would work in a romantical sense, either. Yeah, they're good friends, but I get the feeling they don't even look at each other that way. They act more like father/daughter then anything else.

Just to throw this in...

Since Wash died, I don't think there is anyone else on the ship the is suitable for Zoe in the romantical sense. Wash made her smile, gave her a reason to live. Mal/Zoe are like siblings, or just fellow soldiers. And Zoe needs to forget the war, to put it behind her, and Mal embodies the war, to some extent. I just can't see Zoe/Simon, because Simon is a doctor. Deals with knife wounds, laser burns, bullet holes. That isn't likely to help her heal. Zoe/Inara is just ludicrous, because Inara is all polite and refined, and Zoe doesn't have patience for that crap. That's even if Zoe turned out to be bi-sexual, which I don't think she is. Zoe/Kaylee isn't, really, because they're more aquantices then anything else, and I don't think Kaylee would be bi anymore then Zoe is.

I'm drifting off topic, so I'll stop this rambling rant now. I'm not trying to offend anyone, this is just my opinion.

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 9:38 AM

Wash/Zoe....Well, they were married, so something had to give. Here's what I think it was. As Zoe says in one of my fanfics-to-come: 'It's only once in a lifetime you find somebody who'll take you as you are.' We know that Wash saw Zoe's strength, resolve and forwardness - traits that would incite a lot of men to keep their distance, but nonetheless drew him to her, and she recognised that. He wouldn't be the first man to fall unconditionally in love with a woman because she's everything he isn't. As for Zoe's side, she doesn't seem like the kind of woman who falls in love with anyone all that easily. But, even if true love is way back at the hind end of the train for anyone, deep down they still hope they'll find it - hell, having been single for all but one of my 28 years, I've just about given up but I still have a deeply entombed, near-forgotten hope that the one person who will take me as I am is floating around somewhere. It just might have been the same for Zoe. When she recognised that Wash loved everything about her, I think she decided that at last the time had come to love and be loved - something that had never happened to her before, but damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead - just like so many of her other life experiences.

Mal/Inara....It's got potential - it's got a hellish lot of potential - but realistically, I don't think it's going to happen. Like a lot of ship's captains (especially in sci-fi), Mal is married to his ship. Being 'independent' for him doesn't just mean being free of the Alliance, it means he doesn't want to be controlled by anything or anyone. Like-mindedness is what both attracts and repels him and Inara: they're both independent spirits and free thinkers, and solving the puzzle of each other occupies their minds constantly - you might say they can't stop thinking about each other. But, they both feel the insatiable need to be in control of their own affairs and each perceives the other as a threat to that control. Unless one of them up and becomes willing to compromise, I don't see much progress for them.

Simon/Kaylee....Now that they're 'active', again, something had to give. Is it likely to last? Who the hell knows? One thing that bothers me in fandom is that once a pairing is made, everybody seems to think it's permanent, till death do they part. Did it ever occur to them that maybe it ain't? Relationships end all the time by one means or another. Simon and Kaylee are attracted to each other, obviously, but they've got a ways to go before true love. They've been getting to know each other, but they need to keep at it and reach some understanding, some certainty that a long-term relationship is the right place for them to be. People think they're in love, get engaged, get married - and before they know it, they're split up again, either unable to stand living with each other or growing apart. Sometimes folk are married for years or decades before they grow apart and get divorced - I've seen it happen. If Simon and Kaylee are going to keep it up, they've got some things to work out. Simon needs to learn the ins and outs of being in a relationship (especially in the realm of sensitivity), and Kaylee needs to be tolerant of him while he learns. He has to sort his priorities, and if there are still times when River comes first, Kaylee has to be willing to let him see to her for a little while. If they can bang these things out, I think they've got a future (provided Uncle Joss doesn't kill either of them), but Lord alone knows whether it'll last.

River/Jayne....

DON'T GET ME STARTED.

Edit: RiverFlan, I think you'd probably take heart to this remark J.K. Rowling once made. "Every character does not need to get together with every other character." Can I get an AMEN, SISTER?

Wash and Zoe
Kaylee, Simon
Mal, Inara
Love Boat's climbin'
FIREFLY

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 9:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
I just can't abide Rayne. Or River/anybody. Or Jayne/anybody. That just doesn't make sense. And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened?

Amen. Amen. And Amen.

And Hallelujah.

[Edit - steamer, I totally wrote this before I saw your post LOL! So you got your Amen 3 times!]

Hey, fanfic is for doing fun stuff, so pair who you want for shits and giggles and have a good time. But any argument I've seen that this R/J romance thing fits canon... whatever. I don't see it in their season 1 characters, or movie characters, not even a tiny bit. If you're hell bent on making Serenity a love boat then you can make it happen, but calling it canon? Uh-uh. I've listed my reasons elsewhere, but I ain't gonna change anyone's mind, so I won't repeat it here. (Except - MerryK, where do you get that they share interests? Jayne likes ballet and River likes guns? Hardly!)

Maybe something could develop by the never-to-be season 6 or 7. Sure, anything can happen by then. But I don't see any ficwriters developing River and Jayne through 4 full seasons of growth and change before throwing them in the sack. Most R/J I see is like this:

River: "The movie's over and I'm a sort of sane little killer girl now and looking for someone strong enough for my wild, violent ways, [which is a mischaracterization big time!] and hey Jayne, I **see** through to your good inner self so let's get it on!"

Jayne: "Behind my rough exterior I'm just looking for someone who'll let me care for them and who'll be hot in bed and yet share my wild, violent ways, so hey River, let's get it on and afterward we'll kill some bad guys and then I'll brush your hair!"

I agree re Zoe/Wash. You bring up a good point that the fact that they talk things through - even if it's to argue - is really their greatest strength. Not a lot of that happens on this boat. They're so refreshing. And so over. *sad sigh*

Mal/Inara - this is one that definitely needs lots of time. As they are, they'll never work anything out. Too many walls between them, too many lies. I think the biggest holdup is Inara. I don't think we saw the real her often. It'd take some time to shake her out of her Companion mold, and then things would get interesting.

Simon/Kaylee - honestly, even though I'm writing this pairing right now, I'm kind of bored with it. They have the most potential of anyone for a relationship fun, as in a lengthy developing romance with many ups and downs, but S/K is so often written as saccharine sweet that I'm a bit sick of it. Which makes them really hard to write LOL!

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 12:33 PM

Just a couple things to address...

River and Jayne sharing interests? They're both curious and tactile, wanting to see the nuts and bolts of things instead of being happy with the whole. As I said, River seems to like things simple. Of course, as a genius, a lot of things are simple to her. But dancing, for instance, is her love. For Jayne...it's guns and women. Apart from this, and this is totally opinion, I think River finds some pleasure in using her abilities to protect the others. She's been helpless for a long time, and by the end of the BDM she seems to exult in being useful. I think her future would have her voluntarily joining the crew on more jobs. She doesn't seem like the person who would make a vow to "do no harm" or love peace above everything else.

And just a thing on Simon and Kaylee...I am a bit confused that you don't think Simon is sensitive to Kaylee's needs. I don't think that's his problem. He's quick to see that she's hurt and quick to acknowledge that it's his fault, and he does make attempts to please her. His problem is the way things come out, and that's something that easily mends with time and effort (which he seems willing to give).

There's also the issue of River...but I think that's a conscious choice on Simon's part, that he thinks is the best decision for all parties, and that will change post-BDM.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 1:06 PM

RIVERFLAN

Steamer, heck yes you get an AMEN!! Heck, you get 5,000 of them

It's funny, how on these posts, they're started with pro-Rayne or something, and everyone agrees untill I get in there, I disagree explicitly, and then the anti-whatever people crawl out of the woodwork. Not sure what that says about me.

And, Steamer, I totally LOVE your avatar!!!

@)~*~*~*$)~*~*~*)~(*~*~*~($*~*~*~(@

Gots to get away from the green, nasty dragon
\~~~*~~^~~*~~~/

I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy!
#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#
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Sunday, December 9, 2007 1:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
It's funny, how on these posts, they're started with pro-Rayne or something, and everyone agrees untill I get in there, I disagree explicitly, and then the anti-whatever people crawl out of the woodwork. Not sure what that says about me.

Hey, I just hadn't seen the thread till later. Been traveling and all. But please, take all the blame you want LOL!

MerryK, re shared interests: Jayne smells things, River understands them scientifically. Not so very common.

I do see that River's odd outlook on life is something that could fascinate Jayne (I've written this kind of scene more than once) in the same way as the rain stick did. But I don't see this as making for a romantic bond. Just a quirky and entertaining pseudo-friendship.

I'm not saying that River is a daisy carrying peacenik, but I don't at all see her as enjoying her skill for violence. Certainly she's okay with killing the Reavers because hey - who wouldn't feel good about saving all their friends by killing morally unsalvagable bad guys? There's no second guessing needed there. But I don't think she'll ever feel good about beating people up in the Maidenhead, whereas Jayne would have no problem doing that. He'd be proud.

OK, this is what I see as a season 6 or 7 thing - I think River will move on, and the stunted little girl and the trained killer will find a way to coexist, melding into an empowered and very cool young woman. That person may have more in common with Jayne. But at the end of the movie, I think she's far far far from that place. So very far...

And let me just mention her social and sexual naivety. I have to lay it down here: Jayne has no place anywhere near her for at least a few more seasons of growing up for her, not unless you mean to draw him as a predator or you make them both way out of character.

OK, Simon and Kaylee. Sure, he's plenty sensitive when she gets out a two by four and hits him over the head with it. Otherwise, he's focused on himself and River. He feels stupid and remorseful when Kaylee lets him know that he stepped wrong, because he's really nice and well intentioned, but then he just goes about his business again. Not because he's mean or intends to ignore her; he just doesn't know what else to do. He's limited. Imperfect. Socially kind of inept.

As for willing with the time and effort - I could be forgetting something, but I don't recall any scene where he sets out with the express intent of getting on her good side and pleasing her, though she does that all the time with him. OK, in the movie he expresses his regret etc, but he's pretty much talking about himself there - his own regret, his own desire. Not hers.

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 2:51 PM

LEIASKY

>I think you'd probably take heart to this remark J.K. Rowling once made. "Every character does not need to get together with every other character." Can I get an AMEN, SISTER?

AMEN!

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 10:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
It's funny, how on these posts, they're started with pro-Rayne or something, and everyone agrees untill I get in there, I disagree explicitly, and then the anti-whatever people crawl out of the woodwork. Not sure what that says about me.

And, Steamer, I totally LOVE your avatar!!!

LOL, thanks! Seemed like the thing to do, especially after that business with F*X shutting down the Buffy live musical or whatever it was.

By the by, you posted your response to this thread while I was in the middle of typing mine, so worry not, you didn't inspire any dissension in the ranks here.

Not wanting to kindle any flames, I saved my serious anti-Rayne sound-off for LiveJournal. At the very best, since the movie, Jayne respects River and her abilities a great deal more than he used to. But does he seem like the kind of guy to have a relationship with a girl who can kick his jawbone right out the back of his skull? I hardly think so.

Calm is River
Scared is Jayne
"I can kill you
With my brain."
FIREFLY

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Monday, December 10, 2007 6:47 AM

ROMANCEGURU

Quote:
I think River finds some pleasure in using her abilities to protect the others. She's been helpless for a long time, and by the end of the BDM she seems to exult in being useful. I think her future would have her voluntarily joining the crew on more jobs. She doesn't seem like the person who would make a vow to "do no harm" or love peace above everything else.

This is exactly the River I see.

On a side note, I just started watching BTVS, and I’m now convinced more than ever that Joss would have gone Rayne. However short-lived, tragic or humorous the instance would have been, the evidence points to yes.

This isn’t real life people, it’s science fiction, and anything’s possible.

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Monday, December 10, 2007 7:11 AM

Ah, I see. I basically agree with all your points about River and Jayne, though I do think that River is a little less scientific than most people think, but I think they would happen two or three years down the line instead of your six or seven. And the melding of girl and killer I see happening a whole lot sooner. But I don't actually ever see romance happening between them.

As for Simon, there's an odd thing going on with him, but I think it all makes sense. As for the sensitivity, in their conversations in Safe and the beginning of the BDM, he catches on to her hurt and tries to mollify it without a two-by four. In The Message and the middle of OIS, she is more direct, but, really, I've seen many men still not get that a woman is upset after equal hints as that. And not only does Simon recognize that he hurt Kaylee, he knows more than most guys and apologizes (or tries to) right away and doesn't excuse away that what he did was hurtful. Then he lets her come to him when she's forgiven him. If that's not a sensitive guy, then only fantasies can be.

Re willing to spend time and effort. Simon thinks he's River's sole protector. For most of the series he is. River needs constant protection and attention. Kaylee does not. Can we blame Simon for spending most of his time with River? In fact, he'd be a selfish clod if he did anything otherwise. After an argument with Kaylee, he does fall back to spending time with River, but I don't think that means anything except that River's care takes up most of his time.

He does spend time with Kaylee, though, and tries to be entertaining: the date in the Message, the storytelling in the beginning of OIS. In these encounters his sole purpose seems to be pleasing Kaylee, as he's constantly looking to her reactions. You could make an argument that these, and all the other conversations, are Kaylee-initiated, but we don't know that. Whatever the case, he seems just as involved in their conversations as she does, which indicates to me that he's interested in a relationship with her but can't carve out any more time to make it something serious. Ergo, I see him willing to commit time and effort into a relationship. As he says in the BDM, he spent all his time never doing what he wanted. It's not that he wasn't willing, he just was actually unable. I don't buy Mal's excuse that he could have had a relationship with Kaylee and care for River...any time Simon takes his eyes off River, something goes off. Frankly, River deserves and needs all the time Simon gives her, which grows less as she gets better (and so he spends more time with Kaylee).

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Monday, December 10, 2007 9:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Ah, I see. I basically agree with all your points about River and Jayne, though I do think that River is a little less scientific than most people think, but I think they would happen two or three years down the line instead of your six or seven. And the melding of girl and killer I see happening a whole lot sooner. But I don't actually ever see romance happening between them.

Yay for agreement LOL! But wait - you don't see an R/J romance? I thought you were saying there was potential (too lazy to check the thread again). Must say, I'm bummed that we're not likely to see the maturing of River Tam. She'd be so damned cool.

BTW - in my world, the "less scientific" appearance of River is because it's cool to have a dancer girl scientist but showing the process of her scientific thought won't sell well to the TV audience. But that's because I'm a scientist and want to have some of that thrown in LOL!

[Going to italics for quotes or this post would go on forever...]

"Re willing to spend time and effort. Simon thinks he's River's sole protector. For most of the series he is. River needs constant protection and attention. Kaylee does not. Can we blame Simon for spending most of his time with River?" Hunh. See, here's the thing that I feel like I keep saying but must be doing it poorly because it's not getting through: I don't blame Simon. He really is a nice man, well-intentioned as all hell and not out to do harm. But the fact remains that very nearly every conversation he has with Kaylee is focused on him.

**Yes, he has reason.
**No, he doesn't mean to be selfish.
**Yes, Kaylee encourages this.

But the fact is, he does talk about himself. Whatever's behind it, he does. My point when I brought this up long ago is that once they do hook up and Kaylee starts defining him as "boyfriend" in her mind, the pedestal she has him on will rock. She will start saying - "Hey, what about me?"

"He does spend time with Kaylee, though, and tries to be entertaining: the date in the Message," In which he compliments when she demands it.

the storytelling in the beginning of OIS." Which is all about his own time in school.

And the storytelling in the bar in Jaynestown, which is again all about his overlooked surgical heroism.

"In these encounters his sole purpose seems to be pleasing Kaylee..." Really? I mean... really? I think he's just glad to have someone to talk to. It's pleasing to him, and she seems happy with it, so what the hell? He's not trying to delve into her at all. There was truth in the statement that she's the only woman in his world - he's not chasing her around the ship, he's turning to her because he has no one else. Before the movie, every moment that seems to push them closer is initiated by Kaylee. That's just how it is.

"as he's constantly looking to her reactions" Um.. sort of. I think he's watching because he knows he's not good at talking to girls. Her reaction is flattering to him, and he doesn't want to screw up. But I don't think he's talking to her out of a concern for her well-being. If he was, he'd ask her about herself. He'd initiate.

Again: I'm not he saying he means anything bad, that he doesn't have damn good reasons, or that Kaylee is blameless. I'm just saying that the future of this relationship needs to take into account the lack of balance between them.

"Whatever the case, he seems just as involved in their conversations as she does," But does he ever ask about her? Ever? Maybe the omission is merely Joss saving her background for that Kaylee-history centered episode we never got. Certainly possible. But what I see on the screen is Simon talking about himself and Kaylee being fine with that. Constantly. All the time. I don't think this can last in an intimate relationship. I'm interested in how it is worked out, rather than the average perfect-love fic that completely ignores any flaw in their relationship.

"As he says in the BDM, he spent all his time never doing what he wanted. It's not that he wasn't willing, he just was actually unable."Agreed. Doesn't change the fact of the imbalance.

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Monday, December 10, 2007 2:56 PM

I don't think it's quite that clear cut, Mal4prez. (Oh, and I said I could accept R/J romance, but don't see it happening in my verse).

Simon talks about himself...but look at the circumstances. At the beginning of Jaynestown, he's talking about himself, but only to defend some accusation that Kaylee made. Later in Jaynestown, he brings himself up, but only to talk about what's going on with Jayne, like what he does when comparing himself to River in the pilot. In the beginning of OIS, he's talking about himself, but he's more focused on getting a reaction from Kaylee than his recollections (or that's what I see). In The Message, he first apologizes for being a bad date, spontaneously compliments Kaylee, and then only messes up after she demands more.

Apart from the fact that, at this point, Joss is probably deliberately revealing things about Simon (who appears mysterious and reserved) than Kaylee (who appears most certainly not), and that with pretty nearly all these conversations we catch them in the middle and have no idea what happened before...well, that's a long apart, but anyway, I just don't see selfishness in any of Simon's behavior. What I see is Simon constantly choosing things for the benefit of others and often against his better interests.

In the flashbacks, it's always about River. He drops his studying for a moment to make her happy, only expresses happiness with his father once he knows his father approves, doesn't care about his career if he can do something to save River, spends his entire fortune to get her out, is ready several times in the pilot to give up his life if it will save hers, and stays on a ship with a man who punched him twice because it's the safest place for River. Even his career choice: trauma surgery is not an easy or relaxing job, no matter how lucrative. It's the job of a public servant.

And then, when does his relationship with Kaylee start? She asks about him at the dinner table in the pilot (after which he compliments her), and then he offers to help out the crew in the Train Job and they have a small conversation. In Bushwacked, he only goes over to the ship because people might need his help, and then he works with Kaylee (another small conversation). Later he offers to give the people a proper burial with Book, for no other reason than either Book or he thinks they deserve it. In Shindig, he initiates planning for a rescue attempt.

In Safe, his view of his life is so others-centered that he heals his kidnappers and thinks there's nothing left for him if he's failed River. He even apologizes for Mal breaking his word to Simon. In Our Mrs. Reynolds (including the deleted scene) he offers his encyclopedia and he's ready to fix the mess that River made with Saffron's room. In Jaynestown, he only goes along with the crew because he's needed.

In Ariel, he designs a job that will help everyone but himself, stops to help a patient simply because he needed help, and when they get back to the ship it's all about how good Jayne was and what he can now do to help River. In Trash, he confronts Jayne about what happened in Ariel but chooses what's best for Jayne and the crew, not what seems best for him and River. The Message I've already mentioned, but also he leaves Kaylee alone until she's ready, and then offers emotional support. In OIS, he's only worried about keeping River and Kaylee safe, and fights for that even with a major bullet wound. In the BDM, he only decides to leave because it's not safe for River, but is willing to give his life to get the Miranda message out. He expresses desires occasionally, but never makes selfish choices, except at the end of the BDM.

I don't see an imbalance where Simon is all about himself while Kaylee is doing all the giving. If anything, how often does Kaylee make unselfish choices? I don't see Simon and Kaylee's relationship having problems with Simon being selfish, I see problems with Simon being unselfish, so that it's all about caring for others and not exclusively Kaylee.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Monday, December 10, 2007 3:25 PM

Gosh, it seems like every relationship discussion dissolves in to a "Rayne" fest.

Am I the only one that doesn't get the fascination with "River Romances"? The fanfic archives are filled with all sorts of "what if" pairings and crossover pairings or what BDH she is going to Vulcan Mind Melt with to find ever lasting love or who's children she will bear or who will she loose her virginity to and of course we can't forget the crew's reaction, especially Simon's, because we know he won't accept it unless the lecherous hump proves his or her intentions are out of "true love" and "lifelong sacrifice' and "undying commitment". Spun enough?... anyone else ready to vomit?

River wasn't portrayed as anything but a traumatized adolescent during the series and then by the end of the movie she had finally come to a vague understanding of what she has endured and what she
unfortunately has become, a weaponized traumatized adolescent.

Joss consistently refers to her as underage, even during the movie, but empowers her with intelligence, psychic gifts and keen reflexes. There is little to no subtext to what her sexual desires are and absolutely no discussion of her future sex life on any commentary or in any literature published with Joss's words.

Which leads me to believe that River was a character that was written mainly to show what men are capable of, in darkness (government men) and in righteousness (the crew's heroism) in the BDM.

Further more, any speculation of a Rayne romance in this verse is purely erroneous and shouldn't be based on another series written 10 years earlier, in a different verse.

River romances clearly belong in "FANFICTION", for fans that enjoy those types of scenarios, as we have little insight in to her romantic idealism in canon. Some are actually fun and can be original if the writer takes her tender age and lack of experience in to account. Personally, in time, I think we would have seen her with a new character, probably one closer in age and hopefully as hot as hell. This is just my take on the whole Rayne thingy.

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Monday, December 10, 2007 4:17 PM

I'm sorry, MerryK, I really should have stuck with my original instincts and left this one alone. I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind, I said as much. All that will come of explaining and justifying myself yet again is me being even sicker of this pairing than I already am.

I know, horrible of me to drop this mid debate, and I'm sure your post is well thought out and will be informative to many, but I just can't argue S/K anymore. I don't find the pairing overly compelling, I don't go out of my way to read it, and have ended up writing it only through some odd twist of plot. I'm at my limit. Can take no more.

Platonist - you're not alone, I'm right there with you with the

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Monday, December 10, 2007 4:29 PM

Hey, no problem, Mal4Prez! I know what it's like to have those sort of opinions that don't ever seem to make sense to other people, so I'm sorry if I caused you the same sort of frustration.

Platonist: I, too, wonder at how everything ends up in Rayne discussions... I don't like River romances in general, and I don't see them happening if Joss continues the verse, but I'm not entirely hostile to the idea. In Zoe's words, I don't disagree with any particular point that either side makes. FYI, I found the Rayne pairing an idea so far out when I first came to this fandom, and agree that it should be kept to fanfiction discussions, but within the realm of fanfiction I'm not hasty to label something as taboo or impossible.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Monday, December 10, 2007 5:10 PM

SHINYSEVEN2

While it doesn't make either Kaylee or Simon a bad person, I think they have very little in common and don't share a worldview or objectives. Importantly, Kaylee adores Serenity and wouldn't want to be anywhere else, and Simon would be anyplace else in a heartbeat if he thought he could protect River there.

Simon is really, really good at a lot of things and really, really bad at a lot of other things, and since his rescue of River he went from spending most of his time in the first category to spending most of his time in the second category, as well as having gone from material luxury to material poverty, and from safety and high social status to being an outcast in constant danger. I think he's desperately looking around for somebody stronger than he is to take care of him, and that doesn't describe Kaylee.

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Monday, December 10, 2007 7:43 PM

Looking for someone stronger? I've never heard that one before. I've always seen Simon as the protector, not the protectee...maybe you can elaborate? I'll definitely agree about his situation being a 180 degree switch, though I think Joss was trying to show us how he copes over the course of the show.

Just as a side note, if you'll read my original post, I wasn't supporting or campaigning against any certain ship. I was simply looking at the likelihood of their relationships being long-lasting if they ever were started. Obviously if you don't think a certain relationship would have started, then you don't think it would last. However, from a psychological and real-life point of view, having the same goals or hobbies or even morals are not necessary to a long-lasting affectionate relationship. Really. Important, but not necessary.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Monday, December 10, 2007 9:25 PM

*percolates*

Must....not....post....Rayne-rant....

Platonist, forgive me for saying so, but your opinion of River-romances is a little discouraging. My longtime contention is that an effective and plausible River-romance would be along a line similar to 'Beauty and the Beast', that is, chancing upon someone who could learn to love her the way she is. I think that's one thing that could set her on an even quicker path to healing. That person, of course, would be awfully hard just to chance upon, but it's a big 'verse and there's always a lottery winner.

*tightens cap on bubbling bottle of anti-Rayne*

Does your captain
Rant and rave
That he aims
To misbehave
Follow him
Right to the grave
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats
http://www.myspace.com/nebrowncoats

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 3:50 AM

SHINYSEVEN2

MerryK: precisely! Simon has to spend all of his emotional "savings account" on taking care of River, and I see him as looking for someone to restore the balance by protecting and taking care of *him.*

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 5:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Just as a side note, if you'll read my original post, I wasn't supporting or campaigning against any certain ship.

You asked - "what about a possible River/Jayne relationship?" which doesn't sound like "looking at the likelihood of their relationships being long-lasting if they ever were started" but rather asking whether they start. Nes pa?

Keep in mind, this relationship is in no way canon. It never started. It was never suggested, as S/K and M/I clearly are. You make a big leap, a pile of assumptions, in getting R/J to start, and that puts twists on these charactizations enough that your analysis of the longevity of their relationship is questionable. Mostly, you're giving Jayne all manner of noble, unselfish traits that are highly debatable.

And yes, it does make you a proponent of this ship. You are able to make those leaps, those assumptions that put these two in a relationship. Many of us are don't see that. At all.

You konw, I'm noticing a similarity between how you treat Jayne and Simon - if you insist on drawing them as perfect romantic heros with only enough flaws to fill the pages of a romance book with plot twists, well yeah, their relationships may appear possible and long-lasting. But Joss's characters are never so simple.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 5:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by shinyseven2:
I think he's desperately looking around for somebody stronger than he is to take care of him, and that doesn't describe Kaylee.

Wow. That's a new take. And has some merit in my eyes. (And damn, I'm going to talk S/K again! No, I'm just talking S. No K involved! Well, only a little...)

I love how you say it, that he's very very bad at some things. So true - he's been somewhat sheltered himself. He's certainly got a backbone and plenty of toughness to do as he's done with River, but it's not like he set out in life to be Mr. Joe Adventurer. He's human, he is sensitive and a bit soft and squishy. I bet somewhere inside he's overwhelmed and shocked at what his life has become and wanting a little safety and security. Someone to take care of him for a change.

Which, as it happens, is exactly how I've been writing him. Not only that, but I've written Kaylee as strengthened by some hard times, so she's been able to become a kind of care-taker for him.

Wow, again. Thanks Shinyseven! I feel so justified LOL!

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 5:38 AM

I think you misunderstand, Steamer.

I contend that River WOULD, possibly, find love with a new someone.

This makes the most sense to me because it would also allow the opportunity for the writers to establish a new character. These tend to be my favorite stories.

But, I do strongly feel that Rayne and other BDH River romances belong in Fanfiction as there are no canon basis for any of them. I hope that clears things up.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 5:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steamer:
My longtime contention is that an effective and plausible River-romance would be along a line similar to 'Beauty and the Beast',

and thus a fable, hum?

Jayne is not the Beast of lore. He's a real man - a toughened, morally questionable one who probably picks his nose and farts a lot and doesn't sit around mooning over love. He considers himself the center of his own tale. He's not looking to be the romantic hero in someone else's love quest.

To paraphrase Jane Austen: "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a [role in the Firefly verse] must be in want of a [romantic interest]."

Jane meant this ironically. So do I.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 6:11 AM

Oh dear. I knew it was not a good idea to bring up Rayne in the first place. I brought up Rayne only because a lot of people are certain that it will take place...I am not one of them, but I can play along for a post, can't I? I completely acknowledged all the assumptions that R/J supporters make, so I'm not sure why you try to call me on that one. I did not make them myself, I just followed the jumps that I've seen others follow.

I do not view anyone on Firefly as a perfect romantic hero. I despise the very notion. Every single Firefly man has moments where they are very romantic, and moments where they are very not. I don't need to acknowledge that with every post, though, even though I did here.

With that said, I'm not pulling these good qualities that I believe both Jayne and Simon possess alongside their flaws out of nowhere or interpretation...Joss directly said that Simon was too unselfish, clearly to a fictional degree, and Jayne's loving side is obviously meant to be seen in the little things that Joss added for his character to do. How does make them perfect romantic heroes.

I know that in my writings, at least, none of the relationships are anywhere close to perfect or simple, just as none of the characters in them are. If you'll note, nowhere in my post describing the ingredients for a long-lasting relationship did I say that said relationship would be easy...they still take work, a great deal of work. I really don't understand why you tried to accuse me of simplifying and romanticizing...I understand you have strong opinions about Jayne and Simon and their relationships, but simply seeing better chances for a relationship doesn't make you a diehard fluttering-heart romantic.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 6:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Oh dear. I knew it was not a good idea to bring up Rayne in the first place.

One sure way to draw a crowd LOL! Yeah, maybe you should have prefaced R/J with: only to be discussed with those who believe! Of course, I still would have posted what I did above. All those assumptions you make about R and J change things. See below.

Quote:
I completely acknowledged all the assumptions that R/J supporters make, so I'm not sure why you try to call me on that one.

Because, as Platonist says, those assumptions belong in Fanfic. They do not belong in canon discussions.

Quote:
How does make them perfect romantic heroes.

Because - and here I'm talking to the love boat crowd and not you in particular - it seems that any sizable flaw in Simon and Jayne that may preclude last-longing romance with the female of choice is shot down out of hand. And then replaced with gose like: "But he leaves out his dirty dishes and therefore he is a flawed man, see, I'm no idealist!" Gag!

And now I feel like I'm entering a RWED debate... Like Bush supporters, S/K supporters sometimes seem unable to even consider that their man may have deep flaws, for Simon, deep enough that he won't ever be Kaylee's husband. This can be true even though he's not a bad guy.

Damn, how did I get into this again?

Quote:
I know that in my writings, at least, none of the relationships are anywhere close to perfect or simple, just as none of the characters in them are.

Sorry, haven't read your stuff. I'm just going by this thread, and others we've talked in.

Quote:
I really don't understand why you tried to accuse me of simplifying and romanticizing...

Because, whether you believe it yourself or are just saying what you think the R/J crowd believes, you did post this:

"River and Jayne have shown themselves to be capable of giving to other relationships, so assuming there is some attraction between them, they probably would give equally and enough. They are both very honest people, and don't seem to have problems in their other relationships, so together they would probably be very self-disclosing and emotionally open."

simplifying and romanticizing? I think so. I mean - Jayne? "very self-disclosing and emotionally open"? No "problems in other relationships"? *scratches head*

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
But, I do strongly feel that Rayne and other BDH River romances belong in Fanfiction as there are no canon basis for any of them. I hope that clears things up.

Yes, it does, and I did misunderstand. I thought you were talking River-romances period, rather than just River/BDH pairings. Being a River/OC writer my own self, that's why I found your post a little discouraging - but, thanks for clarifying it!

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
and thus a fable, hum?

I didn't mean it that way. Just drawing a comparison. Besides, a fable is essentially a lesson about real life.

FOX watch out,
Warns Uncle Joss:
There's some Rivers
You shouldn't cross.
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats
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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:25 AM

Hey, Mal4Prez, that stuff about Jayne was part tongue-in-cheek.

After all, being cruelly blunt is honest, and having no problems with relationships when all you have are relationships with your mother and whores isn't so much either. Jayne's got a lot of potential, he just does a pathetic job of dealing with it.

I won't try to continue the other discussion, but I'd just like to say that I think there's a difference between shooting down a flaw and thinking that it doesn't make a difference. People can have lots of flaws and still have relationships, which was all I was discussing here. We may disagree on which flaws would ruin relationships, but I wasn't here to discuss what flaws exist. Maybe it's romanticizing to think that certain flaws could be overcome with work...I have a hard time believing that, when both science and experience say otherwise.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steamer:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
and thus a fable, hum?
I didn't mean it that way. Just drawing a comparison. Besides, a fable is essentially a lesson about real life.

Yeah, I was being a bit of a smartass (Me? Never!

) I know what you meant, and I see the appeal of the big lug with the pretty little thing. It surely is a popular tale! I just don't think Jayne fits it, not in the time of the series and movie.

Like Platonist, I do like River/OC. You've got all my support there! This girl desperately needs relationships, a chance to grow up. Learn to be social. Try and fail and try again.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Hey, Mal4Prez, that stuff about Jayne was part tongue-in-cheek.

I totally didn't get that, obviously! (Must adjust the taking-things-seriously dial...)

Quote:
Jayne's got a lot of potential, he just does a pathetic job of dealing with it.

Agreed! Hey, I like the idea of Jayne meeting his match in a woman. I just don't think River's the one, not as far as canon.

Quote:
People can have lots of flaws and still have relationships, which was all I was discussing here.

Very true. And as always when you and I debate, I get the feeling that when it comes down to the basics we agree.

I should note, my argument with S/K fic is hung up on the state of it when I first joined the fandom, when one hook-up suddenly turned Simon into a sensitive, well-spoken, unselfish, full-time devotee of the cutesy engineer. So my posts on the subject are often not addressing you, though you may be the one who brought up the subject.

And honestly, there hasn't been fic like that in some time. I really should just let it rest.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:51 AM

Well, it was probably a mess-up on my side, not making clear what I believed, what I was analyzing, and what was not meant to be taken seriously. I agree—I dislike those fics, as I do most fics that are "shippy". Me no likey the cutesy sweet.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 1:42 PM

Let's get back to the canon relationships and leave Rayne out of the equation, LOL

Steamer, I like your allusion to "Beauty and the Beast" (I know it more as a "Fairytale" by the way, not a Fable)...the spell, the magic, the courtly time period, the romance, etc

But, I always thought this was a good description for "Mal and Inara" Mal-the beast on the inside (we've all see that) and Inara- the obvious beauty.

Inara's beauty in essence tames or kills the beast, OK, maybe not... that sounds like King Kong, but you know what I’m referring to.

Anyway, healing and absolution are more of Inara's role (the Book scene in the pilot). And we all know Mal could use a little healing, whether or not he knows, could lead is in to another discussion.

For a River romance I would hope for a different type of compliment, maybe, someone that shares a similar experience with her, and is nurturing like Simon, or fun and gentle like Wash.

Mal4prez and MerryK, you both bring up valid points for Simon and Kaylee. In the long run, I just don't know if Kaylee will feel secure enough, with Simon. That is my big issue with them, as far as lasting power. She has a fragile ego when it comes to men that she finds herself infatuated with. She is overly sensitive to their awkward comments. We did see some maturity in both of them during the movie, so maybe there is hope, if Joss doesn't kill one of them.

Interesting comments, by the way.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 1:46 PM

CHARLIEBZ

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Originally posted by MerryK:

Wash and Zoe. These two definitely have the honesty thing going for them....They care for each other deeply enough to offer their lives to save the other. Assuming they talk with each other more offscreen, their relationship is very healthy, and could realistically last well into the future if outside circumstances permitted.

I think W/Z love each other deeply but I do see trouble down the road. There are little issues that crop up throughout the series that I believe would cause trouble down the way. Zoe still lives like a soldier. I could see Wash getting really tired of her asking Mal's permission every time they wanted to get away. And the sir thing? That would get on my nerves. For Zoe, the arrangement works perfectly but I honestly can't see Wash tolerating it for too long. Also, Wash doesn't seem entirely comfy with the crime aspect of their lives. Not to mention the violence.

And don't get me started on the baby thing. In the real Firefly 'Verse, I honestly think it would be reckless to have a baby on that "deathtrap." How many times was the ship in danger? Not only was the ship threatened by Reavers and other crooks, how about the Alliance? Let's say Serenity gets caught smuggling or something else, everyone gets arrested so what happens to the baby?

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Mal and Inara.
They could make it work, if they start being honest and give more to the other person, but their status quo predicts only separation in their future.

The shipper in me says Yes, Yes, Yes! Of course they could work. Seriously though, I do believe that with time, alot of time, they could work.

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Simon and Kaylee. These two have a lot to work on, but they have a definite step up from Mal and Inara.

A short-term step up of from M/I. Really, how long could Simon stand to be on Serenity? The guy is accustomed to being useful, needed, in control, etc. and now he is occasionally useful when someone gets shot. What does he do the rest of the time? He must be going stir-crazy!

Basically, the difference between Simon & Kaylee is this: She chose this life on Serenity. He didn't.

Also, how deep are Kaylee's feelings for Simon. When he made his declaration in the BDM she responds with her comment about sex. And also talking with Mal about them leaving she doesn't say she's in love or anything only that she needs loving not of the mechanical kind.

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And, just as a bonus, what about a possible River/Jayne relationship?

No. A mentally traumatized teenager doesn't need to be with a man who sold out her and her brother. And would have done so again if she hadn't beaned him with that can in the BDM.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:32 PM