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Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:

Certainly the "Book as ex-Operative" theory has some legs, and I think you've offered more concrete proof than anybody. I disagree on a few points, though.

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That said, I don't think Early knew Book wasn't a Shepherd due to any prior encounter. He knew he wasn't a Shepherd for the same reason that he knew the name and habits of every other person on Serenity: Research. He clearly had done his homework before the job. Now, had Book been an ex-Operative, would Jubal Early have been able to dig that info out? I doubt it. I highly doubt it. Even if somebody disagrees with me as to Early's level of intelligence, I think we can agree that it would take someone with Mr. Universe-level skills to unbury information that was THAT classified. That makes me shy away from the ex-Operative theory.

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Another thing that makes me wary of the ex-Operative theory is...well...the "ex" part. I just don't see a person being allowed to QUIT being an Operative and then get to sail the black like a normal person. I think the Alliance would keep tabs somehow, if they let an Operative quit at all. The Operative in the BDM implies that he's doubtful the Alliance will leave him alone.

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Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:

Good point about the retired Operative concept. I guess what I was thinking was that in order for Book to go from being an Operative to a man of Faith in something other than the Alliance, and to seem at most points to have no great love for them, that he must at some point have had the kind of world-view-altering experience that the BDM Operative had, and not simply taken his gold watch and gone on his merry.

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Originally posted by BionicBatman:

I'll keep my answer short.
The more i think about it, the more i think he was NOT an operative.
When the Alliance patched him up the look at his ID card to show who he was. And just like the Operative from Serenity said, "Like this place, I dont exist." They would not have known who he is then

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Originally posted by BionicBatman:

He has Parliament codes to get him access everywhere.

He has no rank or name, but has entry to any facility with his Parliament pass. Book could be the same.

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Now back when Book is helped out it could very well be because of his status of a priest or Shepherd.

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Originally posted by NewBrownCoat:
In the Serenity pilot, Book is nearly in tears when he says "I think I'm on the wrong ship" and he is being comforted by Inara.

In Out of Gas, River says to Book who is currently reading the bible - "Don't be afraid, that what its says. But you are afraid." and Book says "yes".

The idea that someone with the strength and fearlessness to be an operative can be so completely changed as to be truly fearful when in danger and so troubled by finding himself on Serenity with outlaws, etc. Well, that just don't sit right.

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Originally posted by NewBrownCoat:
In the Serenity pilot, Book is nearly in tears when he says "I think I'm on the wrong ship" and he is being comforted by Inara.

In Out of Gas, River says to Book who is currently reading the bible - "Don't be afraid, that what its says. But you are afraid." and Book says "yes".

The idea that someone with the strength and fearlessness to be an operative can be so completely changed as to be truly fearful when in danger and so troubled by finding himself on Serenity with outlaws, etc. Well, that just don't sit right. A high level cop, or perhaps a government interrogator, would be possible. Neither of those kinds of characters would necessarily be in conflict with Book's actions during these scenes I mentioned. Nor would the scenes mentioned in this thread like "I don't give half a hump if you are innocent or not". But an "operative" ? Can you see The Operative (from the BDM) acting like that. Just don't make no sense.

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Originally posted by christhecynic:

The operative in Serenity completely lost his cool and seemed genuinely terrified when the Reavers showed up. Why? He's smart enough to know that the odds of him being eaten alive and raped are effectively nil, since his ship would probably be destroyed in the ensuing battle instead of boarded. (In fact the Reavers didn't appear interested in boarding anyone at all.) The only thing that he really had to fear was death, and he certainly did fear it.

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As for Serenity, I think that if he went to the abbey to get away from his past and the first thing he did upon leaving was beat up a cop and then watch that same cop get shot I can see why an ex operative would react as he did. He's hardly leaving his past behind, his repentance could be for nothing. Think about what it feels like for someone who deeply believes in god to see their own soul slipping away.

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Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:

As for Book being a student of Shan Yu, I think this is one of those moments where we are well served to take a step back and observe the show from outside it, thinking of the conventions and needs of writing, rather than assuming that EVERYTHING said within the show fits perfectly and has a purpose within the show. The teachings of Shan Yu were something Joss wanted us to see about Niska's character, a window into the way he thinks, as well as the way he justifies himself. (Also sets up one of the show's shiniest lines: "You wanna meet the real me now!") Joss knows the vast majority of his audience however, bright as we Browncoats are , has never heard of Shan Yu, so he needs to have a few sentences of exposition. If Niska says these lines, it weakens him; for us to see him explaining his philosophy to his victims takes away from his cold brutality. The line "Are you familiar with the writings of Shan Yu?" seems much less sadistic if he then spends the next couple of minutes explaining them to the guy he is cutting on. So, Book, being the Point of View character for all things involving moral philosophy, describes it, bouncing off Simon, since he is the only other historically-minded character available. The audience at this point will accept Book's knowledge, since as a Shepherd we assume he probably has a decent grip on comparative religion and philosophy. Now, Joss is Boss, so could he have decided to bring this back up later with a tie-in to Book's past? Naturally. But since all we've got is what we've got, I think the evidence available supports the literary necessities of the scene moreso than Shepherd being a student of the torturous pyschopath himself.

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Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:

That said, I don't think Early knew Book wasn't a Shepherd due to any prior encounter. He knew he wasn't a Shepherd for the same reason that he knew the name and habits of every other person on Serenity: Research. He clearly had done his homework before the job.

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Whedon has stated that if a sequel [to Serenity] is made, he hopes to address the character Book's backstory and deal with Jubal Early, a bounty hunter character in Firefly.

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Originally posted by LiLi:
Well, as they say on tvtropes, this theory has been thoroughly Jossed by the Shepherd's Tale comic. Unfortunate, because I think it's an interesting one. Not to say that the canon backstory (though vague) is not interesting, but with his speech about how Operatives believe hard and the seemingly intimate knowledge of how they think, this was a poetic theory.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
But the fact is all we know about Book is that he was a runaway then a thug then a spy and that some deaths happened in association with him.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Technically we don't know WHAT Book was still. A spy, yes, but rank, position, who's side he was on, none of that. He could potentially have been an Operative.

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Actually, he is referred to as 'Officer Book.'

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Actually, no, Storymark, I LIKED Shepherd's Tale. But the fact is all we know about Book is that he was a runaway then a thug then a spy and that some deaths happened in association with him. We don't know ANYTHING, like I said, about what his rank was or who's side he was really on.

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Originally posted by LiLi:
He was clearly a commander in the war, not a covert assassin. The deaths associated with him came from what they thought were his poor command choices, but really it was a massacre because the Browncoats knew what was coming.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:


Though we still don't know what side he was on. His reaction to the counter attack very much suggests he never expected them such a retaliation.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Operatives do have people they answer to, if Those Left Behind is any basis.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
As for the Officer thing, I double checked, and yes, he is called Officer Book on the bridge of his command ship, and the guys who select him say he caught the eye of the Officer Corp.

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We still don't know what that means. I admit this does suggest strongly a military route, but do we know the Operative isn't military? He IS given a military command at one point in the movie.

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but your defensiveness tends to support my thesis.

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You think he was an operative, fine.

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You say I'm holding onto a pet theory...

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