Out of Gas: a masterpiece! by Delvo

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Originally posted by Zencat:

She was having sex in the engine room because the boy was pretty and engines make her hot, and she's clearly not at all hung up about having sex when she wants to. This all made sense.

I loved this scene. Kaylee's been teetering toward saintly and/or everyone's little sister since the show began, it was so nice to see that's not the case at all. It also adds a nice little twist on the Simon/Kaylee romance possibilities. She obviously sees Simon as a relationship guy and not just a good lay. Or possibly both.

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I especially loved the flashback to how Mal got Jayne aboard. Bought him right out from under his employer! Mal rocks. And it's my opinion that, while he may not think so, Mal *can* trust Jayne, to watch his back and be loyal to him. I think Jayne's never met a man with anything near the kind of honor and integrity Mal shows, and he's more impressed by that than he'd like Mal to know.

Okay, Jayne is the one who tracked them down right? That's how it sounded to me, but I haven't heard anyone else mention it. Being the Jayne lover that I am I do hope this is true as it shows that he's good for something other than shooting people and looking damn pretty.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Saturday, October 26, 2002 1:58 PM

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Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
....looking damn pretty.

I would have gone with "ruggidly handsome in a hot kind of way", but whatever works for you.

Personally, I think Mal is cuter...
________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Saturday, October 26, 2002 4:12 PM

KOBAYASHI

Question -

Was 'Out of Gas' just a re-working of the original 2 hour pilot, cut down to fit in one hour? My local newspaper reports that is what they've done. Does this mean we'll never see 'Serenity'?

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Saturday, October 26, 2002 4:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kobayashi:
Question -

Was 'Out of Gas' just a re-working of the original 2 hour pilot, cut down to fit in one hour? My local newspaper reports that is what they've done. Does this mean we'll never see 'Serenity'?

No, Serentiy has a completely different plot. It explains how River and Simon joined the crew.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Saturday, October 26, 2002 7:12 PM

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Originally posted by LivingImpaired:

I would have gone with "ruggidly handsome in a hot kind of way", but whatever works for you.

Hmm, actually that's just about right, except "in a really hot kind of way."

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Personally, I think Mal is cuter...

Sacrilege! He's got nose flare. *backs away in fear of having her boyfriend's chest hair dissed*

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Sunday, October 27, 2002 12:01 AM

KITHKILL

Wow. I live in the UK, so I've been downloading every episode of Firefly from the 'net, a not inconsiderable undertaking. But, boy, if I didn't think it was worth it before, I know it now (not that that was ever really an issue :D). This was a spectacular episode.

On reflection the thing I think I love about this show is its down-to-earth attitude. Everything about it tells the story of a workman-like environment, one that you could yourself imagine inhabiting. Take the silent-space - more than just a stylistic choice, it hammers home the idea that this is a real environment, one the characters have to deal with daily. It's not some fantasy environment, where ships go "whooosh", it's real, and it's everyday. The plot for this episode was no different - look at Star Trek when it says the life support is going down. Does anyone remember that ever being as well done as this? In the space of 6 shows (including Serenity), this show has become THE best sci-fi on TV.

And just an aside to all those who fear cancellation, one thing I've not heard talk about is its non-US potential. I've got a good feeling about this show, because a) FOX would be foolish not to give it some leeway if it has the potential to become as popular as Buffy or Angel in the long term (unlike other US shows I've read about that are doing a bit better), and b) those aforementioned shows may be doing better and staving off cancellation in the US, but by the sounds of it, they're not exactly gonna be primetime material, say, in the UK. Buffy and Angel have been consistent viewer magnets on Sky One, BBC2 and Channel 4 over here - Joss' shows and the type of writing and humour they engender are particularly appealing to our British sensibilities (presumably down to the fact that he lived here for a good long while) - it's possible that they're more popular over here (per person, you guys have more people, let's be fair :D), and that's gonna have to be a factor in FOX's decision.

So cheer up - things are looking shiny :-) We got a good show that's performing exceptionally well, FOX have just displayed a vote of confidence by ordering three more scripts, and it's only 6 days until the next episode :-)

My apartment is infested with Koalas. It's the cutest infestation ever. Every time I turn on the lights they scatter, and I'm like, "Come back you guys", or, "Let me hold one of you".

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Sunday, October 27, 2002 5:54 AM

EXDAIX

Where do you download the episodes?

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Sunday, October 27, 2002 9:35 AM

MUDDER999

I loved Out of Gas. It was tense, yet humorous. A wonderful episode.

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Sunday, October 27, 2002 2:10 PM

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Originally posted by Delvo:
WOW.

This episode is an example of why I don't like the "x out of 10" kind of rating system for anything. You cold mistakenly give some other episodes a 10, and then there's nowhere left to go when you see on elike this... but then, how far down are you supposed to hedge the numbers for another episode that you also loved, just because you weren't floored by it? How do you measure the difference between them?

Well, you could always give it a 4 point scale - Unforgivable, No reaction, ok, and WOW! Then all the Wows tie... ;)

And, if I were using such a rating system, I'd agree with you. WOW!! (of course, I'm very prone to giving 5s on 4 point scales - so WOW, WOW, WOW!!! LOL!)

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The other ship's crew's betrayal was predictable, and Mal saw it coming too, but it was clear he had no choices and accepted that. It was interesting to see him make those instantaneous decisions when his back was to the wall, more than once.

Ya. This was the ep that made me lose my heart to Mal, who I KNEW I was going to like the first time I saw him. In every scene, he's trying to hold it together, pushing the whole situation forward almost singlehandedly, trying to create options out of thin air...a girl couldn't help but love a guy like this. And, forgive me for my girlishness ;) but seeing Mal wrapped up in the cockpit like that just pushed every female instinct button I've got!

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Characterization for all on the show went clipping right along pretty well, except for one little issue: JW seems to have an immature, girlish perspective on love/sex/dating/romance. I was worried when I found out this show was being done by the creator of Buffy that this might happen. It hasn't gotten too bad on firefly yet, though. But still, it's becoming a noticible problem with the characters of Kaylee and Inara. Even in the episode when we find out Inara's reason for being there (paying Mal rent for transportation and a place to live and work), she does practically nothing else but oggle Mal and act nonsensically toward him. And Kaylee... why was she even on the ship in the middle of nowhere in the first place when not a part of the crew, and how are we supposed to believe her tastes in men? Doing that scene that way was just cheap sensationalism.

The Kaylee scene did Kaylee a disservice. Here's Mal, who's allowed to love his ship the way he does, but Kaylee (who we KNOW loves the ship intimately), must be a cheap whatever it was that Mal called her. It's slightly sexist - why can't they both have that myopic love for the ship? Why do we have to learn about her love for the ship by learning that she uncovered the problem while lying prone on her back??? Having said that, Inara mooning over Mal is perfectly normal, natural, and exactly what you'd expect from a companion who's emotions have hiccupped over any one male... I totally sympathize. IF Mal keeps it up, I may have to import the shamelessly gushing review!

QT

p.s. - I hope the Delvo review is going to become a weekly staple! Great job!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Sunday, October 27, 2002 5:30 PM

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Originally posted by QueenTiye:

The Kaylee scene did Kaylee a disservice. Here's Mal, who's allowed to love his ship the way he does, but Kaylee (who we KNOW loves the ship intimately), must be a cheap whatever it was that Mal called her. It's slightly sexist - why can't they both have that myopic love for the ship? Why do we have to learn about her love for the ship by learning that she uncovered the problem while lying prone on her back??? Having said that, Inara mooning over Mal is perfectly normal, natural, and exactly what you'd expect from a companion who's emotions have hiccupped over any one male... I totally sympathize.

I don't think Mal called Kaylee a "prairie harpy" because Bester told him that engines make her hot. He hadn't even seen her yet, he was just pissed at his mechanic for being a loaf. And how is Kaylee having a healthy sex life, and admittedly, a couple of kinks, make the portrayal of her sexist? But Inara going goo-goo eyes over a man who calls her a whore is perfectly okay with you? Inara's obvious affection for Mal, considering the things he's said about her and they way he looks on her profession, which everyone else seems to think is perfectly respectable, makes me a little uncomfortable actually.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Sunday, October 27, 2002 6:12 PM

Scouts honor - I'll be back! Great points Jaynesgirlfriend! See ya tomorrow when I'm awake to discuss!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Sunday, October 27, 2002 7:09 PM

ROBERTSPARLING

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Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:

The Kaylee scene did Kaylee a disservice. Here's Mal, who's allowed to love his ship the way he does, but Kaylee (who we KNOW loves the ship intimately), must be a cheap whatever it was that Mal called her. It's slightly sexist - why can't they both have that myopic love for the ship? Why do we have to learn about her love for the ship by learning that she uncovered the problem while lying prone on her back??? Having said that, Inara mooning over Mal is perfectly normal, natural, and exactly what you'd expect from a companion who's emotions have hiccupped over any one male... I totally sympathize.

I don't think Mal called Kaylee a "prairie harpy" because Bester told him that engines make her hot. He hadn't even seen her yet, he was just pissed at his mechanic for being a loaf. And how is Kaylee having a healthy sex life, and admittedly, a couple of kinks, make the portrayal of her sexist? But Inara going goo-goo eyes over a man who calls her a whore is perfectly okay with you? Inara's obvious affection for Mal, considering the things he's said about her and they way he looks on her profession, which everyone else seems to think is perfectly respectable, makes me a little uncomfortable actually.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

Maybe it's me but what is everyone talking about with the googly eyed Inara? I'll admit, we've all been trained by TV to assume that when a woman loks at a man, smiles at him even, that she must harbor some deep feeelings for said man. But this is Josh Whedon we're talking about. Joss freaking Whedon. This is a man who is all about women impowerment in his writing.

Inara wasn't making googly eyes at Mal. Get over it people. She's been trained as a companion, she sizes men up as a matter of course, looks them over and evaluates them, because she's been expertly trained to do so. And why does she smile at the man who calls her a whore? Becuase she has sized him up, along with his situation, and already determined that she has won. The shuttle is hers. Who doesn't like smiling when they know they've already won?

And I'm sorry, but what are you saying Jaynesgirl? I just don't understand your beef with Kaylee's treatment. Pleaase elaborate if you see fit.

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Sunday, October 27, 2002 7:54 PM

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Originally posted by RobertSparling:
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Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
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Originally posted by QueenTiye:

The Kaylee scene did Kaylee a disservice. Here's Mal, who's allowed to love his ship the way he does, but Kaylee (who we KNOW loves the ship intimately), must be a cheap whatever it was that Mal called her. It's slightly sexist - why can't they both have that myopic love for the ship? Why do we have to learn about her love for the ship by learning that she uncovered the problem while lying prone on her back??? Having said that, Inara mooning over Mal is perfectly normal, natural, and exactly what you'd expect from a companion who's emotions have hiccupped over any one male... I totally sympathize.

I don't think Mal called Kaylee a "prairie harpy" because Bester told him that engines make her hot. He hadn't even seen her yet, he was just pissed at his mechanic for being a loaf. And how is Kaylee having a healthy sex life, and admittedly, a couple of kinks, make the portrayal of her sexist? But Inara going goo-goo eyes over a man who calls her a whore is perfectly okay with you? Inara's obvious affection for Mal, considering the things he's said about her and they way he looks on her profession, which everyone else seems to think is perfectly respectable, makes me a little uncomfortable actually.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

Inara wasn't making googly eyes at Mal. Get over it people. She's been trained as a companion, she sizes men up as a matter of course, looks them over and evaluates them, because she's been expertly trained to do so. And why does she smile at the man who calls her a whore? Becuase she has sized him up, along with his situation, and already determined that she has won. The shuttle is hers. Who doesn't like smiling when they know they've already won?

And I'm sorry, but what are you saying Jaynesgirl? I just don't understand your beef with Kaylee's treatment. Pleaase elaborate if you see fit.

Sorry this is so long, but I'm hoping by leaving that whole string of responses up it'll be a little clearer about what I was saying.

I'm not entirely sure Inara was making googly eyes at Mal when they first met, I need to rewatch that. But QueenTiye was stating an opinion that relied on the idea that Inara had been so I responded with that same assumption. But my last statement about feeling a little uncomfortable with Inara's affection for Mal stemmed from other episodes. Even if she wasn't taken with him during their introduction, she certainly is now, but he doesn't seem to have changed his mind about whether or not she's a whore. If Inara were such an empowered woman how could she possibly fall for a man who so disaproves of her?

I don't have a beef with Kaylee's treatment actually. Bester isn't the one who called her a "prairie harpy".

BTW, forgive me if I sound at all rude, I'm PMSing like mad.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Sunday, October 27, 2002 9:34 PM

LOONYTOON

sex + money = WHORE! I don`t see why someone would object to Mal calling her a whore. She might only lay nice guy, but everything the good cap`n has said about her has been true. She may be a high class whore, or the whore with a heart of gold, but she is still a whore. Maybe she likes mal cuz he is the only one that treats her like a normal person cuz he see`s no special reason to respect her. And the nice whore is not a new idea, watch "Unforgiven" with Clint Eastwood.

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Sunday, October 27, 2002 11:28 PM

Please ignore him. Please God in Heaven just ignore him and maybe he'll go away.

On the other hand, I always wanted an arch-nemesis.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Monday, October 28, 2002 1:37 AM

QUILL

I loved the scene where Mal looks at Serenity for the first time, all alone on the landing field. One can see her looking back at him, the first time I've seen real personality in that ship. Love at first sight...and mutual, I'll bet.

Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out, and when they are let out they're usually a real pain and cause all sorts of trouble. --Chris Boucher

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Monday, October 28, 2002 4:11 AM

DELVO

It seems that some clarification is due here about my comments on love/sex/dating/romance (LSDR) in this show.

First of all, the scene I'm talking about with Inara isn't the negotiation scene. It's after Mal has given everyone the plan and they're preparing to leave him, when she interrupts what she's doing to stare at him, how many times, three? And then the "You don't have to die alone!" speech where she's practically having a nervous breakdown at the concept of not being with him again. Nobody else had much hesitation about accepting his wishes and decisions. It's what he wants; her self-interest in this is just woefully overdone.

Second, I'm not complaining about the casualness with which sex is presented, which I know in many people's minds equals "maturity" about it. I DO, in fact, find that attitude immature because it's generally a trait of children to pretend that certain actions have no consequences at all. But I understand that many people in real life and on TV see it very differently, and I didn't bring that up because I know that last sentence makes me look exactly like Loonytoon's fire&brimstone preacher to some of you and I don't care to bother getting into that fight here. I called the presentation of LSDR here immature because the characters' behavior about it is like the behavior of middle school girls about LSDR in several ways.

First, they're about as subtle with it as a sledgehammer to the head. Seond, there's the dreamy, slightly drugged-looking goo-goo eyes every time Kaylee and Inara see or talk about their target men. Third, there's HOW OFTEN they manage to end up talking about their target men behind their backs. Fourth, there's the rush to the end of the story with no development; we didn't see Inara's crush building or any particular reason for, we just see that it overwhelms her life, and we only saw a few episodes of Kaylee's before POOF and we found out the target man feels the same way, leaving those two noplace left to go except to either play an implausible cat & mouse game for years to come or else just split up and go for someone else, thus discrediting what we were supposed to believe about them in the first place. Fifth, there's the infusion of sex where it doesn't make sense. Mal's already got the most in-demand engineer around, and he just happens to catch that guy screwing the only person who's BETTER? Come on. That's just hopelessly contrived. And when something's obviously shoehorned in there when it wasn't necessary to the story, we have to ask what the real reason is... Oh, I know teacher! It's so that JW can preach at us his particular philosophy of promiscuity! After all, his message isn't one we're bombarded with all the time already, it's truly original! I don't have a problem with sex in general, but I see no reason to forcibly infuse it into everything else in life either. That's one way it can become unhealthy and problematic, and, perhaps more importantly to a TV show (as opposed to real life), it's just lazy shortcut storytelling. Sixth... oh, nevermind, five's all I had...

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Monday, October 28, 2002 5:15 AM

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Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
I don't think Mal called Kaylee a "prairie harpy" because Bester told him that engines make her hot.

I don't either. I think he called her that because that's what he thinks of a female who has to get it on with his engineer in his engine room, especially an engineer who apparently doesn't care enough about her to ensure that's shes appropriately clothed before he gets up to strut around half naked talking about her behind her back.

And while I don't share the opinion that promiscuity is "o.k." I also am not basing my opinions of the sexist portrayal here on that. What I'm saying is that this episode showed the defining characteristics of just about every character of the show. Someone else commented that this felt like the pilot. I concur. So saying - we learned that Mal's first love is his ship. I loved that scene. While I'm sure I'll never love a hunk of metal quite that way, I can empathize with his feelings. Look how much we sympathize with him in that moment. Ladies, if you will - if your husbands/boyfriends/lovers fell in love with a hunk of metal the way Mal fell in love with the ship, would you appreciate it that much? And yet, we all felt Mal in that moment, yes? Now contrast this with what we felt about Kaylee. Who apparently is so turned on by engines that she screws guys in engine rooms. Anyone feel any empathy with her? Anyone feel like - wow. She really loves that engine. Or did anyone think "She's awfully kooky..." That's how I felt. I'm asking everyone to consider their own feelings, and it may turn out that I'm all alone on this one. But this is what I saw - and I didn't like it.

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But Inara going goo-goo eyes over a man who calls her a whore is perfectly okay with you?

Yes and no. If I have to believe that she is just hopelessly in love with him, and has no resources of self defense available to her, no. I won't like this at all. But...she put him quite in his place on this issue of calling her a whore, and she'll earn his respect over time. Of that I'm certain. She's that dignified, gracious, and intelligent. OTOH, I think we do her a disservice if we think even for one minute that she isn't subject to the same human emotions that anyone else has just because she is a companion.

SIDEBAR NOTE: I'm an Andromeda refugee... and in the Drom universe, my favorite topic was Nietzschean matriarchy - because it required us to look at the idea of matriarchy outside of our own cultural boxes...the companion idea requires similar (although I don't think as much) stretch...a companion is not a whore, and is not a prostitute, any more than a surgeon is a barber... the profession has elevated considerably, it requires a postsecondary school education, and does not come with negative effects such as pimps and drugs (so far as I can tell). This woman is not someone who has had the softer emotions beaten out of her by one guy after another who climbs on top of her and abuses her. She isn't someone who is working the streets, in and out of jail, etc...she's a refined woman who can fall in love just as easily as the next woman, skill or no skill. And falling in love or developing a crush or any other thing, will bring about the same emotional confusion that it does for anyone else, notwithstanding her profession, and perhaps even more so because of it - because she isn't used to not being in control of things in this realm of(as Delvo calls it) LSDR.

I'm hoping that we learn more about the companion academy, and about Inara, and how she struggles to balance her own attractions with her sense of professionalism. Just a thought exercise -how do psychologists fall in love without persistently analyzing their lovers? And what happens if they fall in love with someone who their clinical knowledge tells them is an emotional basketcase? Do they stop being human beings because of clinical knowledge?

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Monday, October 28, 2002 5:24 AM

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Originally posted by Delvo:
First of all, the scene I'm talking about with Inara isn't the negotiation scene. It's after Mal has given everyone the plan and they're preparing to leave him, when she interrupts what she's doing to stare at him, how many times, three? And then the "You don't have to die alone!" speech where she's practically having a nervous breakdown at the concept of not being with him again. Nobody else had much hesitation about accepting his wishes and decisions. It's what he wants; her self-interest in this is just woefully overdone.

Well, yes, but I liked it!

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Fourth, there's the rush to the end of the story with no development; we didn't see Inara's crush building or any particular reason for,

Yes well, what possible reason can a woman of her means have for having a crush on Mal? None... so I'm rather glad that we haven't been given one - other than what SHE sees IN him...(Jaynesville), and THAT could turn out to be a disappointment... I like that she has a totally unreasonable crush on Mal. See my comments above.

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we just see that it overwhelms her life, and we only saw a few episodes of Kaylee's before POOF and we found out the target man feels the same way, leaving those two noplace left to go except to either play an implausible cat & mouse game for years to come or else just split up and go for someone else, thus discrediting what we were supposed to believe about them in the first place.

I agree... this could be going too fast...

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Fifth, there's the infusion of sex where it doesn't make sense. Mal's already got the most in-demand engineer around, and he just happens to catch that guy screwing the only person who's BETTER? Come on. That's just hopelessly contrived.

I had different reasons for hating this scene ... but this is another good one...

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And when something's obviously shoehorned in there when it wasn't necessary to the story, we have to ask what the real reason is...

Agreed...

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Oh, I know teacher! It's so that JW can preach at us his particular philosophy of promiscuity! After all, his message isn't one we're bombarded with all the time already, it's truly original! I don't have a problem with sex in general, but I see no reason to forcibly infuse it into everything else in life either.

Agreed...

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That's one way it can become unhealthy and problematic, and, perhaps more importantly to a TV show (as opposed to real life), it's just lazy shortcut storytelling.

Agreed!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Monday, October 28, 2002 5:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Please ignore him. Please God in Heaven just ignore him and maybe he'll go away.

On the other hand, I always wanted an arch-nemesis.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

Be careful about that. I once had an arch-nemesis, and wound up being fairly good friends with him...

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Monday, October 28, 2002 9:46 AM

ROBERTSPARLING

Uhm Delvo, you're strange. But the board needs diversity. So hi there.

This was the best episode to date. Well written, great characterization on all parts. And I really hate it when someone uses the word "contrived" in reference to television. Television is a medium that borrows heavily from everything; from music to books to reality, and even other tv shows. You can't avoid being contrived in television, becuase everything is borrowed or copied from something else. The fact that Joss and Edlund can produce and an original show, with as few contrived scenarios as it has, shows that Joss is now and will forever be, one of the best damn people in the business.

You wath the show. You probably like the show. Don't get hung up on the unavoidable.

*************************************************

I got nothing

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Monday, October 28, 2002 10:52 AM

DELVO

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Uhm Delvo, you're strange.

I do get accused of that a lot, but usually they specify how or why!

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I really hate it when someone uses the word "contrived" in reference to television... You can't avoid being contrived in television, becuase everything is borrowed or copied from something else.

That's not what I meant by "contrived". I meant "too unlikely and coincidental; forced; out of place; not believable as a part of the story; a conspicuous intrusion into or imposition upon the story by something else, signalled by its jarring failure to fit and make sense".

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Monday, October 28, 2002 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:

Second, I'm not complaining about the casualness with which sex is presented, which I know in many people's minds equals "maturity" about it. I DO, in fact, find that attitude immature because it's generally a trait of children to pretend that certain actions have no consequences at all.

Are you talking physical consequences or emotional? We haven't been given much information from the show about STDs 500 years in the future, but I think its safe to assume that contraception is still practiced. And it certainly didn't seem as though Kaylee had any big love thing for Bester. Inara has apparently been trained to deal with the emotional consequences associated with the sexual aspects of her job, perhaps this is why she hasn't just jumped Mal already...aside from the OMR kiss. But since when are children the only people who believe their actions have no consequences? Just because they're TV characters doesn't mean they can't be immature.

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But I understand that many people in real life and on TV see it very differently, and I didn't bring that up because I know that last sentence makes me look exactly like Loonytoon's fire&brimstone preacher to some of you and I don't care to bother getting into that fight here.

Loonytoon's opinions are not my problem with him. Its his way of stating them. Your arguments are intelligent and your tone is respecful. I'm thoroughly enjoying this debate.

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First, they're about as subtle with it as a sledgehammer to the head. Seond, there's the dreamy, slightly drugged-looking goo-goo eyes every time Kaylee and Inara see or talk about their target men. Third, there's HOW OFTEN they manage to end up talking about their target men behind their backs.

In my opinion I don't think that Inara or Kaylee have acted like squealing teens around Mal and Simon, despite the fact that Kaylee probably is still a teenager. But how often have they talked about them behind their backs? Cause honestly I can't remember any that weren't expository in some way.

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Fourth, there's the rush to the end of the story with no development; we didn't see Inara's crush building or any particular reason for, we just see that it overwhelms her life,

How so?

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and we only saw a few episodes of Kaylee's before POOF and we found out the target man feels the same way, leaving those two noplace left to go except to either play an implausible cat & mouse game for years to come or else just split up and go for someone else, thus discrediting what we were supposed to believe about them in the first place.

I completely agree with this one. But I've seen Joss and Co. pull off stranger things, so I'm going to reserve judgement on these two for just a little longer.

Quote:

Fifth, there's the infusion of sex where it doesn't make sense. Mal's already got the most in-demand engineer around, and he just happens to catch that guy screwing the only person who's BETTER? Come on. That's just hopelessly contrived.

I thought it was fairly obvious that Bester was not quite the mechanic that Mal thought he was. We heard about Wash's glowing recs, but we only heard from Mal about what a genius Bester was. Mal's not perfect, I can believe that somebody would fob off their crappy mechanic on a newbie like Mal. As for Kaylee, I'm believe in happy accidents too.

Its so nice to participate in a debate that hasn't spiraled down to name calling.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Monday, October 28, 2002 1:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:

I don't either. I think he called her that because that's what he thinks of a female who has to get it on with his engineer in his engine room, especially an engineer who apparently doesn't care enough about her to ensure that's shes appropriately clothed before he gets up to strut around half naked talking about her behind her back. And while I don't share the opinion that promiscuity is "o.k." I also am not basing my opinions of the sexist portrayal here on that. What I'm saying is that this episode showed the defining characteristics of just about every character of the show.

True enough, but that's Mal's character flaw. Kaylee and Inara both did great jobs in my mind of proving Mal was wrong in his assessments of them. Kaylee showed that she was a capable and intelligent young woman who in addition to being a superb mechanic also likes having sex. Sure, he was kind of a jerk, but not every guy I've had sex with treated me like a princess and I certainly don't think I'm a prairie harpy. The important part for me was that both Kaylee and Inara showed that Mal's bad opinion of them was not a true picture of their character and that their attitudes toward sex did not define who they were.

Quote:

Ladies, if you will - if your husbands/boyfriends/lovers fell in love with a hunk of metal the way Mal fell in love with the ship, would you appreciate it that much? And yet, we all felt Mal in that moment, yes? Now contrast this with what we felt about Kaylee. Who apparently is so turned on by engines that she screws guys in engine rooms. Anyone feel any empathy with her? Anyone feel like - wow. She really loves that engine. Or did anyone think "She's awfully kooky..." That's how I felt. I'm asking everyone to consider their own feelings, and it may turn out that I'm all alone on this one. But this is what I saw - and I didn't like it.

I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say about this one? Did you feel that the show was making some kind of statement about Mal and Kaylee's morals? Because my first reaction upon realizing Kaylee was doing it with the mechanic was "Good for you, girl!" Serenity makes Kaylee hot, but Mal is so obsessed with the ship that he'd rather die than abandon it. Personally, I think Kaylee's attitude is the healthier one.

Quote:

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But Inara going goo-goo eyes over a man who calls her a whore is perfectly okay with you?

Yes and no. If I have to believe that she is just hopelessly in love with him, and has no resources of self defense available to her, no. I won't like this at all. But...she put him quite in his place on this issue of calling her a whore, and she'll earn his respect over time. Of that I'm certain. She's that dignified, gracious, and intelligent. OTOH, I think we do her a disservice if we think even for one minute that she isn't subject to the same human emotions that anyone else has just because she is a companion.

I agree. Mal's opinion of her occupation is definitely one of the obstacles in the way of any possible relationship for them. As long as there is never a scene where Inara confronts Mal and says, "You're right, I'm a whore. I love you," Inara will still be okay in my book.

Quote:

SIDEBAR NOTE: I'm an Andromeda refugee... and in the Drom universe, my favorite topic was Nietzschean matriarchy - because it required us to look at the idea of matriarchy outside of our own cultural boxes...the companion idea requires similar (although I don't think as much) stretch...a companion is not a whore, and is not a prostitute, any more than a surgeon is a barber... the profession has elevated considerably, it requires a postsecondary school education, and does not come with negative effects such as pimps and drugs (so far as I can tell). This woman is not someone who has had the softer emotions beaten out of her by one guy after another who climbs on top of her and abuses her. She isn't someone who is working the streets, in and out of jail, etc...she's a refined woman who can fall in love just as easily as the next woman, skill or no skill. And falling in love or developing a crush or any other thing, will bring about the same emotional confusion that it does for anyone else, notwithstanding her profession, and perhaps even more so because of it - because she isn't used to not being in control of things in this realm of(as Delvo calls it) LSDR.

I have nothing to add. This is just a great analysis of the Companion trade.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Monday, October 28, 2002 1:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:

As for Kaylee in the engine room with Butt-head the mechanic:
I was disappointed with the scene, not because I feel that such explicit sexuality takes away from Kaylee's innocence or her character. In fact the sexuality of the scene was the only thing I found acceptable. The idea that Kaylee is somehow a "natural," as it were, when it comes to fixing advance interplanetary (perhaps interstellar) propulsion system is a little hard to stomach. Even geniuses don't magically know what they know. Lisa Vito knows how to fix cars because she was exposed to auto-mechanics, which is her family's principal career option. If I were Mal I think I would have wanted to know where Kaylee picked up this talent of hers. Where was the line from Kaylee, "My father was a space-propulsion mechanic and my two brothers are ... etc."

Well, she kind of did. Kaylee said her father said she was a natural. Her father who apparently is a mechanic since Kaylee said she worked for him when there was work to be had.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Monday, October 28, 2002 1:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
True enough, but that's Mal's character flaw. Kaylee and Inara both did great jobs in my mind of proving Mal was wrong in his assessments of them. Kaylee showed that she was a capable and intelligent young woman who in addition to being a superb mechanic also likes having sex. Sure, he was kind of a jerk, but not every guy I've had sex with treated me like a princess and I certainly don't think I'm a prairie harpy. The important part for me was that both Kaylee and Inara showed that Mal's bad opinion of them was not a true picture of their character and that their attitudes toward sex did not define who they were.

We have a difference of opinion!

I don't think Mal's attitude is a character flaw - or if it is, it isn't as bad as Kaylee's. Ok. But having said that, you are right - Kaylee's true character is NOT defined by her attitude about sex, and that's my point. I'll make it a little further down a little better.

Quote:
I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say about this one? Did you feel that the show was making some kind of statement about Mal and Kaylee's morals? Because my first reaction upon realizing Kaylee was doing it with the mechanic was "Good for you, girl!" Serenity makes Kaylee hot, but Mal is so obsessed with the ship that he'd rather die than abandon it. Personally, I think Kaylee's attitude is the healthier one.

No, I'm not saying that the show was making a statement about thier morals. What I'm saying is that our look into Kaylee's character was unfairly tainted with something that was mostly extraneous to it. Her primary character is her love of engines. We didn't need a sex scene to show us that. Any more than we would have needed a sex scene to show us Mal's love of Serenity. It was unnecessary. AND - even if we look at your viewpoint as the more enlightened one than mine

... I think we can agree that your attitude is not universally accepted - and so we've introduced an element into Kaylee's character that COULD very easily call her into question. It wasn't necessary, and it wasn't fair to her. We could have handled her sexual outlook separately - her love of engines is just as obsessive and defining as Mal's love of Serenity and was sufficient to stand on its own. The sexism I'm describing is the idea that sex was needed to show HER love of a typically male thing, where no such thing was needed to justify Mal's first love.

Quote:
I have nothing to add. This is just a great analysis of the Companion trade.

THANKS!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Monday, October 28, 2002 1:21 PM

O.k. brief complaint - what's with these weird icons!

That wink looks like a deranged lunatic, and the tongue sticking out looks like someone blowing bubble gum... I think for those two I'll stick with text icons!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Monday, October 28, 2002 3:44 PM

PEDME84

"Now contrast this with what we felt about Kaylee. Who apparently is so turned on by engines that she screws guys in engine rooms. Anyone feel any empathy with her? Anyone feel like - wow. She really loves that engine. Or did anyone think "She's awfully kooky..." That's how I felt. I'm asking everyone to consider their own feelings, and it may turn out that I'm all alone on this one. But this is what I saw - and I didn't like it."

This scene made me love Kaylee that much more! As someone who is typically seen as the sweet and innocent one, i gotta say that that is NEVER the whole story. it used to piss me off when people would just label me as a goody goody or whatever, cause i would think why do i have to be one or the other? i'm both the lighter and the darker sides at the same time. anyway, now i'm just used to it, but to see a character like Kaylee on TV makes me so so happy. she is cute, and she is naive, but at the same exact time she really really is neither. just because of being me, i find her soooo refreshing.

whether the scene with the arrogant mechanic was too raunchy or not is just a matter of opinion. she got horny, she found a pretty boy, end of story.

and i'm also starting to understand why her wardrobe seemingly has conflicts in it. she really is bright and colorful, she just wears her work clothes most of the time, which isn't to say that she doesn't like those just as much. he he, she's so cool.

and here's my take on mal calling inara a whore all the time. guys like to mess with girls. at least i know they love to do it with me. the only explanation i've gotten so far is that i come off as pretty unmessable, so it's like a challenge to piss me off. we already know that mal knows just how to manipulate her. in the last scene of omr he immediately disarms her with a compliment. (it ticks me off when guys do this kind of thing, so i want to smack him whenever i watch this). inara has a very dignified persona. calling her a whore would be a way to challenge that.

and someone on this thread hailed joss as the greatest writer in tv or something to that effect. i'm not disagreeing (goodness, never!), but i do have a two cents to put in.

he is the greatest because he's the only one with the OPPORTUNITY and the CREATIVE CONTROL. his writing career is a frickin fantasy.

if movies could be written by one person, and directed by people who don't feel the need to change so much so that it is all theirs and not the writers anymore, both scenarios resulting in inconsistencies within the script, and also if more writers had the opportunity to be taken seriously, there would be countless other joss whedons for us to obsess about. or not even with the idealistic scenarios i just listed, just anything that's better. he is hardly the only one out there with his level of talent. as a writer and an audience member i feel so jipped.

here endeth the rant, not that it makes much of a difference to complain about it. i guess that's why it's only worth two cents.

ciao

- emily

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Monday, October 28, 2002 4:41 PM

LOONYTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
sex + money = WHORE! I don`t see why someone would object to Mal calling her a whore. She might only lay nice guy, but everything the good cap`n has said about her has been true. She may be a high class whore, or the whore with a heart of gold, but she is still a whore. Maybe she likes mal cuz he is the only one that treats her like a normal person cuz he see`s no special reason to respect her. And the nice whore is not a new idea, watch "Unforgiven" with Clint Eastwood.

How is anything I just said here rude? Jaynesgirlfriend, the only time I have been rude to you was on the thread dealing with homosexuality. I will not rescind my views on that subject, however I was innapropiate in my tone. I appologize for that, and I will not hold that thread against you, but if you want to keep bringing it up, that is fine by me.

And be careful what you wish for, I`m currently dating my last arch-nemesis!

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Monday, October 28, 2002 5:50 PM

ROBERTSPARLING

Quote:
I really hate it when someone uses the word "contrived" in reference to television... You can't avoid being contrived in television, becuase everything is borrowed or copied from something else.

"contrived" (from Websters dictionary) means obviously planned or forced. All those extemporaneous defintions you have up there don't really apply. But again, not really the point.

The whole point of fiction, in any medium, is the suspense of disbelief. We write stories about men who can fly, women who can kill vampires, and aliens from other planets becuase we have the ability to suspend the rational thoughts imposed on us by reality. The point of fiction is that anything can happen, and science fiction, fantasy, and horror are the genre's that best demonstrate the suspension of disbelief.

The show is about space cowboys. Read it again: Space Cowboys. Certain allowances have to be made and the coincidence that a better mechanic for Serenity happened to be boffing the current one isn't much of a leap of faith on the part of a viewer. In TV land, coincidences happen.

But what exactly isn't believable about Kaylee showing up and upstage Serenity's former mechanic post-coitus? Because she's a girl or a townie? As I understand it, that town she was from seemed to have a thriving salvage yard and space docks. She could probably have picked up a hefty amount of engineering skills from various shops and garages. And if engines (and apparently the mechanics that work on them) do get her "hot," as the grungy former mechanic mentioned, then she probably has spent a lot of time on, around, under, or very near to engines, in one state of undress or another. There doesn't seem to be a reason that Kaylee wouldn't know plenty about engines, especially engines on rusty junkers, like Serenity used to be.

What scenario would you have chosen that would have better fit Kaylee joining the crew? What wouldn't seem contrived to you? Please post it if you have one.

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Monday, October 28, 2002 7:48 PM

SENSOU

First off, I loved this episode. Flashbacks and character developments are always nifty.
Part of the reason I loved this episode was the whole "save the ship in an improbable manner" theme. Mal really reminded me of Capt. Kirk, except I don't recall Kirk ever slamming someone against a wall. Any good guys, at least. The way he acted afte he was shot, I half-expected Mcoy or Spock to show up. However, he didn't lay it on nearly as thick as Kirk usually was.
Jayne was just hilarious. "It smelled funny." He kept the episode from being too dark. River also kept it light with her "reassurring" Book.
Simon and Inara, on the other hand, were just depressing in the first flashback. Of course, "risking life and limb" wasn't exactly what they signed on for. Inara in the flashback was...amusing. Very character-informative. She missed her calling, she should have been a laywer.
Kaylee also was rather wimpy abot the whole thing, but not everyone can be good in a crisis. The whole sex thing? It happened. Deal with it. Lock her up in a room with Simon, condoms, and alcohol for a day. Solve many problms.
"Why don't I jump up and down and wave my arms while I'm at it?" Wash was very...something about the whole thing. On the one hand, his wife was dying, almost dying, whatever. Perfectly understandable that he wanted to stay wit her. On the other hand, he had a responsibility as the pilot to help with the situation, eh, don't get me on my soapbox. What died on his face in the one flashback?
One question about Zoe: why does she get all the good lines? Loved the death-trap one.

Sensou
Hope is the denial of reality, the carrot dangled in front of the carthorse to keep him plodding along in a vain attepmt to reach it.~Raistlin Majere

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Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
sex + money = WHORE! I don`t see why someone would object to Mal calling her a whore. She might only lay nice guy, but everything the good cap`n has said about her has been true. She may be a high class whore, or the whore with a heart of gold, but she is still a whore. Maybe she likes mal cuz he is the only one that treats her like a normal person cuz he see`s no special reason to respect her. And the nice whore is not a new idea, watch "Unforgiven" with Clint Eastwood.

How is anything I just said here rude? Jaynesgirlfriend, the only time I have been rude to you was on the thread dealing with homosexuality. I will not rescind my views on that subject, however I was innapropiate in my tone. I appologize for that, and I will not hold that thread against you, but if you want to keep bringing it up, that is fine by me.

And be careful what you wish for, I`m currently dating my last arch-nemesis!

You have a point. You might not have been deliberately rude here, but its hard not to be a little offended by that many uses of the word "whore" in one paragraph. And I admit I was a bit tainted by our previous experience. But I think your wrong on that being the reason Inara likes Mal. Companions may be considered respectable by the majority, but I doubt Mal is alone in his opinion and Inara didn't act as though she'd never been called a whore before.

Thank you for the apology too. I respect your right to your opinion. Its a very volatile issue though and I think we all got a little out of hand.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:

We have a difference of opinion!

I don't think Mal's attitude is a character flaw -

Hmm, now that I think about it character flaw wasn't a fair term to use. A difference in values from mine is not a flaw, just a... difference. Its late, I'm running out of words, but do you understand what I mean?

Quote:

No, I'm not saying that the show was making a statement about thier morals. What I'm saying is that our look into Kaylee's character was unfairly tainted with something that was mostly extraneous to it. Her primary character is her love of engines. We didn't need a sex scene to show us that. Any more than we would have needed a sex scene to show us Mal's love of Serenity. It was unnecessary. *snip* We could have handled her sexual outlook separately - her love of engines is just as obsessive and defining as Mal's love of Serenity and was sufficient to stand on its own. The sexism I'm describing is the idea that sex was needed to show HER love of a typically male thing, where no such thing was needed to justify Mal's first love.

QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

Okay, I see what you mean, and I see where its coming from too. I don't think this was the interpretation we were supposed to get though. Even while having sex Kaylee was more interested in the ship than the guy. I could still be okay with this, that Kaylee would rather fix an engine than have sex. This is something that's stereotypically a guy thing too. If the roles were reversed and Bester had been in Kaylee's shoes would you have a problem with it?

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Tuesday, October 29, 2002 2:02 AM

QUILL

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo: (I think, these quote nests are getting scary)
and we only saw a few episodes of Kaylee's before POOF and we found out the target man feels the same way, leaving those two noplace left to go except to either play an implausible cat & mouse game for years to come or else just split up and go for someone else, thus discrediting what we were supposed to believe about them in the first place.

I thought Fox was showing the eps out of order. We're probably missing a few developmental scenes somewhere.

Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out, and when they are let out they're usually a real pain and cause all sorts of trouble. --Chris Boucher

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Tuesday, October 29, 2002 4:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Hmm, now that I think about it character flaw wasn't a fair term to use. A difference in values from mine is not a flaw, just a... difference. Its late, I'm running out of words, but do you understand what I mean?

Yep! Thanks for saying it, too!

Quote:
Okay, I see what you mean, and I see where its coming from too. I don't think this was the interpretation we were supposed to get though. Even while having sex Kaylee was more interested in the ship than the guy. I could still be okay with this, that Kaylee would rather fix an engine than have sex. This is something that's stereotypically a guy thing too. If the roles were reversed and Bester had been in Kaylee's shoes would you have a problem with it?

I started to say no... but then I thought about it, and decided that my answer was yes. I'd think differently about the guy, respect him less if that was how we learned about him. And the issue here is not preferring to fix the engine than have sex! TO the contrary - I'd have liked that in Kaylee. That isn't what we saw. What we saw was Kaylee getting off on having sex next to/on/under an engine. TOTALLY different. And totally unnecessary.

Just my opinion!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Tuesday, October 29, 2002 6:43 AM

ESME

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:

Quote:
JW seems to have an immature, girlish perspective on love/sex/dating/romance.

The word I use is 'kittenish'.

Quote:
...she does practically nothing else but oggle Mal and act nonsensically toward him.

I completely and utterly disagree. Inara is a character maybe never before represented on tv: a strong dark woman who lives by her wits and beauty and is proud of it, and who doesn't cringe under name calling, ("whore")and is cool logic personified.

Quote:
...why was she even on the ship in the middle of nowhere in the first place when not a part of the crew...?

sweetie, pay attention! they were in dock.

Esme

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Tuesday, October 29, 2002 9:44 AM

While we are all enjoying our respective debates about the nitpicks of the eps, I'd like to pause here to mention that this thread is overwhelmingly a positive one - starting from the title of the thread, declaring the ep a MASTERPIECE...

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Tuesday, October 29, 2002 3:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:

I started to say no... but then I thought about it, and decided that my answer was yes. I'd think differently about the guy, respect him less if that was how we learned about him. And the issue here is not preferring to fix the engine than have sex! TO the contrary - I'd have liked that in Kaylee. That isn't what we saw. What we saw was Kaylee getting off on having sex next to/on/under an engine. TOTALLY different. And totally unnecessary.
Just my opinion!
QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

Eh, I figured Bester was full of crap and Kaylee would have been just as happy to have sex somewhere else after she saw the engine, but since they were already up there... Yeah, unlikely, I know, but Bester's comment wasn't a key point for me while I was watching the scene. I think without it that scene would have been a less offensive though.

I agree with how positive this thread has been. I think Tim Minear can be very proud he scripted an episode that has sparked debate.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Tuesday, October 29, 2002 6:39 PM

Ok, I'm tired and about to go to bed, so naturally, this is when I choose to have deep, meaningful thoughts--or more likely, my thoughts are just as stupid as they allways are, and I'm just too tired to realize it. But I diverge...

In reading the previous posts here, I really started to think about the whole Mal/Inara/"use of the word whore" debate. After much thought, I've decided that whore is to companion like the n-word is to black. They mean the same thing in the literal, but the first are both needlessly hostile. True, Inara is paid to be a companion to men, which usually entails sex. That said, as long as it is consentual on both ends, then it is no business of Mal's or anyone else's who Inara sleeps with and why. Just as it is none of Inara's business who Mal choses to sleep with and why. For someone that takes such liberities with morality, Mal comes off hyprocritical when he criticizes Inara's profession on what amounts to as solely moral grounds. Mal professes disdain for Inara because he thinks "whoring" is in some way wrong.

For me, Mal's condemnation of Inara borders on out of character. For example:

Select to view spoiler:

...in "Serenity," Inara is introduced to Brook as an Ambassador, which he takes literally. Walsh starts to correct him, saying that "Ambassador" was Mal's euphresim for... and Mal cuts him off with: "She's a whore."

(Sorry. I just read the shooting script for "Serenity earlier today, and I can't stop thinking about it. I tried to hold out reading it until I saw it air, but--what can I say?--I'm weak.) Anyway, in reading this scene, that line came as a slap in the face. I actually paused and reread the scene up until that line because I could not believe Mal said that. The utmost contempt he had in that line bleed through the page (or the screen). I realized that if I had seen this episode first, I would not have liked Mal at all. It was snotty. It was holier-than-thou. It was cruel.

However later on in the episode, Mal has this moment with Inara--if you've seen/read it, you know what I mean--that seems to indicate something else. But I'll get there later.

Back to Mal and his out of character dissaproval of companions. I say "out of character" because Mal seems to be the kind of person that seriously disaproves of people forcing their beliefs/opinions on others that don't want them. That was what the war was all about to Mal. Someone forcing themselves on him: political rape. I believe that that is why Mal is so curt to Brook. He doesn't like the idea that the reason Brook is there is to graft his moral code on their lives, however passively.

So why does someone that despises preaching try to forces his morality on Inara through his overt disapproval?

My answer goes back to that moment he had with Inara later in the episode, where for a moment, he forgot to be mean to her. He likes her; it's obvious to the point of "duh," yet she represents so much that he cannot stand. The prostituton for one, but also civilzation. She admitted to him right off that she supported unification. But yet, he likes her. And he can't deal with it conciously, so he deals by being mean. It doesn't make it right. I agree with Brook when he told Inara that whatever both he and Mal thought of her career, neither had the right to treat her the way Mal did. So it doesn't make it Right, but it does make Mal human.

How many shows can bost this level of complexity with it characters after only six or seven episodes?

Whew, I should have just written a book. At least then I would be getting money.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Wednesday, October 30, 2002 5:36 AM