Mal getting dumber? by jewelstaitefan

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Mal getting dumber?

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Thursday, March 5, 2009 23:09
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Wednesday, January 28, 2009 7:50 PM

This derived from a discussion in another thread.
How many feel Mal was originally written as smarter, more devious, craftier character, and then became a bit dumbed down as the episodes rolled on?
Inara's comments about Mal in the Pilot, Mal's immediate understanding of the ambush aspects on Whitehall, and the prelude to arrival there, then his act in Bushwhacked when he supports Book spreading religiosity to the Reaver victims, sending Simon and Jayne to help.
Do you feel he becomes more transparent as the series progresses?
I understand this may be more difficult for those who saw the originally aired shows, having the ilot being the last one, and the other eps out of sequence.
If he was dumbed down, was it a result of the network messing the sequence? Or too many writers having their hands in the pie?
Or perhaps when he died it lowered his IQ and other capacities.

The list of shows where the primary characters have been dumbed down is far too long to recite, but I was wondering if browncoats felt FF was a victim of this phenomena.

What say you?

Please cite examples if you can. This may become relevant when reviewing which eps were written and shot first (already covered in another thread).

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Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:15 PM

AGENTROUKA

Could you give examples of where you feel he is dumber than he should be? Do you think this actually progresses or is it just something you notice happening once or twice in later episodes?

I'm not going to argue against it on principle, but I wouldn't put it up to meddling from above and more to the writers, to be honest.

We got some brilliant eppies and some not-so-brilliant ones. There can be plot-holes and lazily written characters. So I figure it's not necessarily a far stretch to think that some writers better captured the depth of Mal's scheming brain and others less so.

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Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:19 PM

BYTEMITE

People always talk about the episode Trash and his decision to work with Saffron again...

My impression is he entered into that deal expecting to get screwed over by her, and had a back-up plan to turn the tables if she did. I think that's still pretty devious... Even if he does end up buck naked, stranded in the middle of the desert. A plan can't account for every contingency, he wasn't dead, he got the goods, so it worked out fine in the end. Good plan.

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Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

I was wondering the views of others.
Not really dumb, exactly, but less crafty and devious, so "dumbed down" is the common phrase, even among such things as high-IQ tests.
When he fooled Simon, Book, Jayne in BW, that might not have been a feat, but he also got over on Inara and Kaylee there, as well.
Was he less crafty with Badger in Shindig than in Pilot? was he less crafty with Alliance in Safe than in Bushwahcked?

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Wednesday, January 28, 2009 9:06 PM

AGENTROUKA

Well, if you look at Mal's conflicted face when Inara sings his praises during that "Bushwhacked" scene, he may likely have been surprised himself, hehe. The point was not to alarm anyone about the Reaver trap, so he played up the convenient angle (funeral) to put everyone into their needed places (away or not away). It's not really a daring feat of intelligence or deception.

In "Safe" he had no angle to BE crafty with the Alliance. What could he have done, really? In "Bushwhacked" he isn't all that crafty, either. Hiding Simon and River outside the ship is a clever idea but fraught with danger, as well, and he wastes precious seconds getting Simon all worked up instead of just saying "I have a plan". He repeats that mistake with Tracey later, too.

As for Badger, he was crafty in neither episode. The pilot has him begging for business, albeit begging while tall. The second one has him dragged off for sandwiches and making testicle jokes while trying to push a few of Badger's buttons in revenge.

I don't find the situations very comparable, I guess, and I don't think there is a marked contrast in intelligence between the episodes.

Where we DO see a marked difference is Mal's anger. He's on the edge in the pilot in a way we don't really see later in the series, save "Bushwhacked". Shooting the horse is badass, his interactions with Simon are volatile, his jokes against him and Inara are unkind and less lighthearted, shooting Dobson is the epitome of cold efficiency, he snaps at Zoe, lies to Zoe.

The Mal of the pilot would not have played games with Saffron, I think. He may seem more crafty because he's less open about his softer side than we later see.

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Wednesday, January 28, 2009 9:18 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

So then you feel he becomes more open, and not so much dumber. Open as in transparent, regarding his softer side?

Who else?

I got the feeling in Pilot he was working multplie levels with Badger.
The wrench in Ariel did surprise me.

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Wednesday, January 28, 2009 9:40 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
So then you feel he becomes more open, and not so much dumber. Open as in transparent, regarding his softer side?

No transparent, so much. Obviously.

They certainly play up the more lighthearted humor and we see a much greater range of lighter emotions. Overall, he is more serious and somewhat quieter in the pilot episode. We do not see a silly fight that exposes his paranoia like the one with Inara in "Trash", Mal getting all befuddled about Saffron, struggling to memorize medical terminology in "Ariel", wearing a pretty floral bonnet.

The Mal in the pilot is closer to the Mal in the movie - harsher conditions face him in both than they do in the series, which is one explanation. You can come out of the pilot expecting a darker direction in the series than you get, just as you can suspect the series to be darker when you've only seen the movie.

Quote:

I got the feeling in Pilot he was working multplie levels with Badger.

Levels how?

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:08 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Now young'uns, allow me to begin by asking you to at least refer to FireflyWiki.org, specifically character listings and planetary geography. It is not "whitehall" nor is there any "white tall". The planet is WhiteFALL and the person Mal's having to beg... that is negotiate with is Patience. Discussions like this go a bit more smooth when the facts are well stated. A little research never hurt anybody, I promise.

Quote:
Jewelstaitefan wrote
How many feel Mal was originally written as smarter, more devious, craftier character, and then became a bit dumbed down as the episodes rolled on?

I believe if you listen to the commentary, there may be mention of the fact that the NETWORK made them soften things somewhat. If it's not on the commentary, it's mentioned somewhere. It's been discussed before, but this was some time ago, and my memory goes fuzzy. Being an old FireflyFogey and all.

Quote:
Jewelstaitefan wrote
...in Bushwhacked when he supports Book spreading religiosity to the Reaver victims, sending Simon and Jayne to help.

I believe what is being missed here is there was a tiny measure of "craftiness" involved here, as it kept his somewhat more twitchy passengers busy doing something and distracted them from the fact that Serenity had been subjected to a booby trap and needed to be disconnected before everyone went BOOM.

It also shows that Mal is willing to utilize Book and his religiosity to serve his own purposes when need calls for it. I would have liked to have seen their discussion on that.

Quote:
Jewelstaitefan wrote
Do you feel he becomes more transparent as the series progresses?

In the Pilot, Mal was already on the raggedy edge of his anger. After the pilot, Joss had to pull him back from the edge a bit.

Quote:
Jewelstaitefan wrote
The list of shows where the primary characters have been dumbed down is far too long to recite, but I was wondering if browncoats felt FF was a victim of this phenomena.

Firefly? A victim of a network getting it's dirty-pesky little fingers into the story works and messing with Joss's head? NO! How can this be!?

Quote:
AgentRouka Wrote
As for Badger, he was crafty in neither episode. The pilot has him begging for business, albeit begging while tall. The second one has him dragged off for sandwiches and making testicle jokes while trying to push a few of Badger's buttons in revenge.

This entire segment confuses me somewhat (too many "he's" being referred to), but I get the gist that Mal was just pushing buttons. Mal does that. I think he does it to distract everyone else from thinking about what he's thinking about, or to put them off the idea that he is thinking of something crafty so he can surprise them with it later.

Quote:
AgentRouka Wrote
Shooting the horse is badass, his interactions with Simon are volatile, his jokes against him and Inara are unkind and less lighthearted, shooting Dobson is the epitome of cold efficiency, he snaps at Zoe, lies to Zoe.

Shooting the horse, according to a horse-crazy friend of mine, was pretty darn practical, since the horse was apparently trained against the automatic flight instinct that would have answered all the shooting going on and sent that horse running for home, hearth and alfalfa. Since that horse wasn't running, it had to be taken down.

I would like to submit that, yes, Mal was toned down through the course of the series, but that chances were very good that Joss would have brought him back up to the pilot standards, and possibly past them. That much anger has to be dealt with some time, and we would have seen and enjoyed the progression. Joss is all about progression.

Veteran of the Throes of Cancellation—FFF.net fan since 010703

Doing the impossible makes us mighty
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Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:33 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Quote:
AgentRouka Wrote
As for Badger, he was crafty in neither episode. The pilot has him begging for business, albeit begging while tall. The second one has him dragged off for sandwiches and making testicle jokes while trying to push a few of Badger's buttons in revenge.

This entire segment confuses me somewhat (too many "he's" being referred to), but I get the gist that Mal was just pushing buttons. Mal does that. I think he does it to distract everyone else from thinking about what he's thinking about, or to put them off the idea that he is thinking of something crafty so he can surprise them with it later.

Sorry to confuse you. I meant to say that Mal was not being crafty in either interaction with Badger. First he is begging for business, the second time he is just goofing around while he has the upper hand for once.

Quote:

Quote:
AgentRouka Wrote
Shooting the horse is badass, his interactions with Simon are volatile, his jokes against him and Inara are unkind and less lighthearted, shooting Dobson is the epitome of cold efficiency, he snaps at Zoe, lies to Zoe.

Shooting the horse, according to a horse-crazy friend of mine, was pretty darn practical, since the horse was apparently trained against the automatic flight instinct that would have answered all the shooting going on and sent that horse running for home, hearth and alfalfa. Since that horse wasn't running, it had to be taken down.

I agree, but it is a kind of practicality rarely shown in tv "heroes", thus it's badass.

Quote:

I would like to submit that, yes, Mal was toned down through the course of the series, but that chances were very good that Joss would have brought him back up to the pilot standards, and possibly past them.

Yes, otherwise there wouldn't have been much development to the series.

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:48 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
AgentRouka wrote:
I agree, but it is a kind of practicality rarely shown in tv "heroes", thus it's badass.

But was he really a hero, or do we just like to think he is?

See? Something else that needed exploring.

It was the sequence of Mal shooting Dobson that sold my brother on the show when I showed it to him. He's since converted a couple of his friends, who have converted a couple of theirs...

This is why the episodes need to be seen in order - because the Serenity Pilot was so strong on it's own. If nothing else of the show is seen, it's a nice little movie in and of itself.

At the moment, though, I'm thinking that chronologically in terms of Mal's development, the Serenity Pilot would be better seen somewhere in the middle of the first season, after he's gone through some more frustration.

But it's early here and I haven't had my second blast of espresso yet.

Veteran of the Throes of Cancellation—FFF.net fan since 010703
Doing the impossible makes us mighty
Minnesota Browncoats
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Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:14 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Quote:
AgentRouka wrote:
I agree, but it is a kind of practicality rarely shown in tv "heroes", thus it's badass.
But was he really a hero, or do we just like to think he is?

See? Something else that needed exploring.

Well, technically, he is the hero of the piece, wether we consider him a Hero(!) or noble grandeur or not.

Quote:

This is why the episodes need to be seen in order - because the Serenity Pilot was so strong on it's own. If nothing else of the show is seen, it's a nice little movie in and of itself.

Which is, though, the case with all tv shows that have an overarching super-plot. Not many tv shows, these days, can be just watched out of order without impairing the full enjoyment of the show.

Quote:

At the moment, though, I'm thinking that chronologically in terms of Mal's development, the Serenity Pilot would be better seen somewhere in the middle of the first season, after he's gone through some more frustration.

Except a lot of that frustration is relaed to events within the pilot, or how do you figure Simon and River and Book in there? In terms of chronology, Mal actually goes through an upward arc, mood-wise, during the course of the show. Things go reasonably well, there are several instances where his crew-family connection is confirmed... The acidious darkness of the pilot would seem like a contradiction.

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:24 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
AgentRouka wrote:
Well, technically, he is the hero of the piece, wether we consider him a Hero(!) or noble grandeur or not.

Technically he's the Protagonist. Not all Protagonists are all that pro. Some can be pretty antagonist and just end up going pro.

Quote:
AgentRouka wroute:
Which is, though, the case with all tv shows that have an overarching super-plot. Not many tv shows, these days, can be just watched out of order without impairing the full enjoyment of the show.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Lost. Well, and 24. But I can't watch those because I can't afford to get involved. There's not enough time in the day to watch that much TV.

Oh, and Battlestar Galactica, but I'd have to be pretty tired and busy to stay away from that.

Quote:
AgentRouka wrote:
Except a lot of that frustration is relaed to events within the pilot, or how do you figure Simon and River and Book in there? In terms of chronology, Mal actually goes through an upward arc, mood-wise, during the course of the show. Things go reasonably well, there are several instances where his crew-family connection is confirmed... The acidious darkness of the pilot would seem like a contradiction.

I did say it was early here, right?

Perhaps it would have been better to say that Mal's anger at the level that it was in the Pilot would have fit in well in a season two episode. How's that?

See, in my pre-second-espresso fog, I'm lost in a fantasy world imagining a full run of 22 episodes in season one and a shiny happy renewal to season 2. *sigh*

That happens sometimes when I haven't had enough sleep or coffee and the barometer around here is down in the 29.8's. Tends to make me all bibbilty.

Veteran of the Throes of Cancellation—FFF.net fan since 010703
Doing the impossible makes us mighty
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Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:28 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:

the Serenity Pilot was so strong on it's own. If nothing else of the show is seen, it's a nice little movie in and of itself.

I've often thought that. When favourite episode dicussions come up, I usually don't think of it as an 'episode', It's the first movie, IMO. Serenity is the follow-up movie.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:39 AM

ZZETTA13

Mal’s character dumb? Heavens NO!! Realistic I would say.

I myself say dumb sh*t all the time, then I think “Did I really just say that?”. I look to my wife for conformation, yepper I did. Mal is just being real. Men have their faults and women love them for‘em anyway. We are blessed.

Malcolm Reynolds is a enjoyable character. I also enjoy Jayne (Adam Baldwin) but to put it into perspective, if Malcolm’s in 12th grade, Jayne’s in pre-kindergarden…....

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:57 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
zzetta13 wrote:
Men have their faults and women love them for‘em anyway. We are blessed.

Well... men are good to have around to open jars and things, I guess. Some can get things down from high places, do some automotive maintenance, cook with fire... and other helpful activities

I personally prefer mine to go home after the week is over.

Quote:
zzetta13 wrote:
Malcolm Reynolds is a enjoyable character. I also enjoy Jayne (Adam Baldwin) but to put it into perspective, if Malcolm’s in 12th grade, Jayne’s in pre-kindergarden...

Proto-pre-school, more like. Yet there's a certain measure of charm to that as well. He would definitely go home when he's done. To a nice space ship and fly away. Whether I could actually get him to fix anything though, that would be the question.

GoodNESS I sound bitter, don't I? Not so much. I love men as much as any other red-blooded female, just not all the time.

And I love my captain

More, I love this series and any opportunity to talk about the characters.

Veteran of the Throes of Cancellation—FFF.net fan since 010703
Doing the impossible makes us mighty
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Thursday, January 29, 2009 5:48 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

2 things I've always felt:

Mal always was smart about some things-- war, violence, crime, the evil intent of other folks-- and always DUMB about some things, especially women. Sometimes the dumb outshone the smarts.

Second, IMHO, the writing got better as the show went along. I think it took Joss and Tim a few eps to really feel and understand what they wanted to do, and what would work. This is a common situation in TV. There are a lot of shows where the first half of the first season was a learning experience, where the writers were discovering what their characters were really all about, what the audiences wanted, what the actors were really capable of, what the studio and network would buy.

The Pilot is the exception- they had longer to think about it, to revise and polish. But that's why the Train Job and Bushwacked are relatively weak, and less favored. It took 'till at least Shindig and JaynesTown for Joss and Tim ( and Jane Espenson, don't wanta leave her out.) to hit their stride.

That's what's wrong with the BDM, too, IMO. Joss and all had been away for years, and they didn't quite get it right when they came back.

But a few more eps in the first season, everything would have started working even better, and the results would have been success, high ratings, Emmys, respect from Fox, and the show would still be running. That's the tragedy of the cancellation- the potential was there, sometimes shining thru like diamonds in the mud. A little more time and it would have been all diamonds.

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 5:51 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

That's what's wrong with the BDM, too, IMO. Joss and all had been away for years, and they didn't quite get it right when they came back.

Them fightin' words....

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:13 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Technically he's the Protagonist.

THAT's the word I should have used, thank you. :)

Quote:

Quote:
AgentRouka wroute:
Which is, though, the case with all tv shows that have an overarching super-plot. Not many tv shows, these days, can be just watched out of order without impairing the full enjoyment of the show.
The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Lost. Well, and 24. But I can't watch those because I can't afford to get involved. There's not enough time in the day to watch that much TV.

Oh, and Battlestar Galactica, but I'd have to be pretty tired and busy to stay away from that.

Farscape is pretty plotty, so only few eps should be viewed out of order. Hell, Gilmore Girls has developing plot arch. House does. Most tv shows that aren't procedural dramas really do. Do you really think that most don't have season-long plots that are being developed?

Quote:

Quote:
AgentRouka wrote:
Except a lot of that frustration is relaed to events within the pilot, or how do you figure Simon and River and Book in there? In terms of chronology, Mal actually goes through an upward arc, mood-wise, during the course of the show. Things go reasonably well, there are several instances where his crew-family connection is confirmed... The acidious darkness of the pilot would seem like a contradiction.
I did say it was early here, right?

I see.

Quote:

Perhaps it would have been better to say that Mal's anger at the level that it was in the Pilot would have fit in well in a season two episode. How's that?

See, in my pre-second-espresso fog, I'm lost in a fantasy world imagining a full run of 22 episodes in season one and a shiny happy renewal to season 2. *sigh*

That happens sometimes when I haven't had enough sleep or coffee and the barometer around here is down in the 29.8's. Tends to make me all bibbilty.

Awww. I understand. Lack of coffee is a harsh thing, but having one's coffee-deprivation-induced pleasant halucinations shattered is just cruel.

So what do you see happening in the remaining 8 Season One episodes that would justify Mal's anger? A general development toward the problems that the movie opens with? In that case, it would make sense, but I like to think that Mal's anger is a direct response to stressful conditions, so it makes sense at any point that jobs are scarce and danger is high - like in the pilot and the beginning of the movie, or whenever anyone threatens his ship. :)

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:31 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
AgentRouka wrote...
Farscape is pretty plotty, so only few eps should be viewed out of order. Hell, Gilmore Girls has developing plot arch. House does. Most tv shows that aren't procedural dramas really do. Do you really think that most don't have season-long plots that are being developed?

Oh...

*sniff* FarScape. I fell for Firefly as hard as I did because I was missing FarScape so bad after it's cancellation. You think Fox is bad? HA! It has nothing on Sci-Fi.

I bet if you take the series you just mentioned, and put them up against all the Reality TV and fluff TV that is on the air right now - filling the gaps between advertising - you will find only a small handful with WORTHY season-long plots being developed. the kind that make you want to sit down and watch them all the way through like a video novel. Firefly was good that way, in fact it's the only thing even remotely good about only having 13 episodes. They can all be watched in one day.

I've done that, actually, on sick days from work. It would probably be classified as my own personal form of Tweaking.

Quote:
AgentRouka wrote...
Awww. I understand. Lack of coffee is a harsh thing, but having one's coffee-deprivation-induced pleasant halucinations shattered is just cruel.

Isn't it? There's days I just can't cut break.

Quote:
AgentRouka wrote...
So what do you see happening in the remaining 8 Season One episodes that would justify Mal's anger? A general development toward the problems that the movie opens with? In that case, it would make sense, but I like to think that Mal's anger is a direct response to stressful conditions, so it makes sense at any point that jobs are scarce and danger is high - like in the pilot and the beginning of the movie, or whenever anyone threatens his ship. :)

You can't have that much anger without some foundations. Stress doesn't create it, it makes it come out.

Inara leaving, Book leaving, losing Wash - those three things wouldn't have happened all at once. They would have happened sequentially over time. I believe Inara gave Mal cause to put on some company manners from time to time that kept him from diving deep into his anger.

Book reminded him of some of what he was angry about - or rather, Whom he was angry with - which would be God. Mal wasn't an aetheist or anything. You can't be as pissed at God as he was without acknowledging there's something to be pissed off at. Having Book around gave him someone to channel his anger at from time to time. Although I think Book was getting to him on some level, if not a spiritual one. Must have, or the two of them wouldn't have shared a friendly cigar in the movie.

Jobs would indeed continue to get scarce as the Alliance began to exert more and more control over the 'verse. Maybe it would have gotten to a point where they had to set down and couldn't even get Serenity off the dirt because they didn't have the coin for fuel.

Maybe Mal would have to compromise his principals to get coin to get back to the black, hate himself for it, and has his own little crash down. I would have liked to have seen if he would hit rock bottom or just blow up and bust.

The main problem with all of this is the use of the word "maybe" in all of it. How it's all so gorram hypothetical. How Firefly ended before its time.

Veteran of the Throes of Cancellation—FFF.net fan since 010703
Doing the impossible makes us mighty
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Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:02 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:

you will find only a small handful with WORTHY season-long plots being developed. the kind that make you want to sit down and watch them all the way through like a video novel.

Yeah, but it wasn't really a question of quality but of whether they exist - and they do. If you want to talk about quality, then we can likely agree - much of what is out there is rubbish.

Quote:

Quote:
AgentRouka wrote...
Awww. I understand. Lack of coffee is a harsh thing, but having one's coffee-deprivation-induced pleasant halucinations shattered is just cruel.
Isn't it? There's days I just can't cut break.

Oh yes. Those days.

Quote:

You can't have that much anger without some foundations. Stress doesn't create it, it makes it come out.

True enough, but Mal's anger being present is a given - him showing it is really the subject and is what tends to set the tone of the show - darker or lighter.

Quote:

Inara leaving, Book leaving, losing Wash - those three things wouldn't have happened all at once. They would have happened sequentially over time. I believe Inara gave Mal cause to put on some company manners from time to time that kept him from diving deep into his anger.

I think she also diverted him from his anger, as making him think about life apart from that anger he so loves to cling to - which brought its own kind of frustration.

Quote:

Book reminded him of some of what he was angry about - or rather, Whom he was angry with - which would be God.

I think Mal moves beyond seeing Book as a ventile for his god-anger during the series, and fairly early at that. So long as Book doesn't try to force God on him, Mal is quite friendly with him. And I don't think Mal's anger is mainly directed at God. He's pissed at God, but even if he had never beieved, he would still carry that anger with him. Disappointment, frustration, the trauma of war that is not balanced by the reward of winning, the pressure of Alliance and Reavers pushing at his space on both sides... There are many sources and objects of his anger.

But as you describe it, you would place second season as generally leading up to the events of the movie, right? Makes sense. :)

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:29 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
AgentRouka wrote
Yeah, but it wasn't really a question of quality but of whether they exist - and they do. If you want to talk about quality, then we can likely agree - much of what is out there is rubbish.

Which is the other reason why I don't watch much TV. The first being I just don't have time, so when I waste it on TV, it better be for a good reason.

Quote:
AgentRouka wroteTrue enough, but Mal's anger being present is a given - him showing it is really the subject and is what tends to set the tone of the show - darker or lighter.

This is true - and the Network determined that starting lighter was better than starting in the dark right off the bat. It's primarily what made it seem so lumpy at first in terms of the tone. I knew something was off with Train Job from the get go, but couldn't put my finger on it. Then when the Pilot aired AFTER everything else, I could see it and say "Oh, so they did a Star Trek."

Gene Rodenberry had a whole different concept in mind for Classick Star Trek than what actually aired. Unfortunately, the network didn't care for that either, and he had to castrate his idea to get it on the air, then work toward his idea. I believe Joss was trying the same thing. Unfortunately, basketball took precedence over science fiction.

Quote:
AgentRouka wroteI think she also diverted him from his anger, as making him think about life apart from that anger he so loves to cling to - which brought its own kind of frustration.

There are times I think Mal liked being frustrated. It gave him something else to feel besides the emptiness inside.

Quote:
AgentRouka wroteI think Mal moves beyond seeing Book as a ventile for his god-anger during the series, and fairly early at that.

Agreed. Book is a smart man. And he knows how other men think. He was bringing God to Mal on a more indirect route - around the corner of No and Where - fully aware that Mal wouldn't accept God if forced upon him. It would have to be Mal's idea to let him in - which is the correct way to approach Faith anyway.

"I don't care what you believe in... just believe." That's the first step.

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AgentRouka wroteBut as you describe it, you would place second season as generally leading up to the events of the movie, right? Makes sense. :)

Most definitely. *sigh*

Veteran of the Throes of Cancellation—FFF.net fan since 010703
Doing the impossible makes us mighty
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Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:05 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

That's what's wrong with the BDM, too, IMO. Joss and all had been away for years, and they didn't quite get it right when they came back.

Them fightin' words....

" The duel will be met tomorrow at Kaytree Pond,", at dawn, if I can get up that early.
and,
" If you need one, any gentleman here can give you the use of a sword."
If I'm not there on time, start without me.

:<)

NOBC's rule: Any time posts on a message board get longer than one screen, it's time to quit reading that thread.

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Isn't Mal's anger essentially due to Serenity Valley?
Mal and Zoe were never thieves or criminals of any sort prior to Serenity Valley, right?
Everything they had left and were left died on Hera. They are now shells of what they were. That is his anger, isn't it?
Mal does not think the Miranda broadwave will end that battle, the Alliance will return to strength.
What do you think must happen, how much must the Alliance suffer, before Mal will have won the Battle of Serenity Valley? Must the Alliance collapse?

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Friday, February 13, 2009 3:36 AM

JAYNESMANE

I never really thought of him as being any dumber really. His character has always seemed fairly consistent as far as I can tell.

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 11:09 PM

ANOTHERSKY

Mal does push buttons, as somebody way back in the log said. and I think their hypothesis was right--he gives himself time and space to think/maneuver that way.

Dumber? While Mal seems much more mellow than in the pilot, I think it's more which side of his character is currently winning out.

Each of the characters is complicated--Mal is no exception--and while he might act like (and want to act like) an easy-going teddy bear most of the time while still doing captainy things, his "other" nature--the one intertwined with his extensive anger, and despair, and bitterness, and a whole lot of unanswered questions--surfaces in flashes, quite a lot. The shooting-people-and-things scenes seem to come up when a crisis situation suddenly turns into an apocalypse situation, where Mal feels like he's been forcefed more than he can chew.

When I saw SERENITY the second time, after the series, and came to the scene at Haven where he shoots the Alliance survivor, it was like seeing the photo-negative of the Captain's usual MO.
I thought "Oh no, he'd doing it again. I get it. Mal's magnitude of good'n'fair'n'kindess turns into the same magnitude, only ruthlessly utilized."

He also seems to see this dualness in himself and be disgusted and a little shocked by it, while unable to deny its usefulness. Makes him human, and a 3D character.

Going for a Ride.

Another Sky

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