Accurate Portrayal Of Frontier Planets by DakotaSmith

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Accurate Portrayal Of Frontier Planets

POSTED BY: DAKOTASMITH
UPDATED: Thursday, June 10, 2004 03:04
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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 3:31 PM

yes, a .25 might be a bit more powerful than a short, but not a LR, thats the point I was trying to make. I used the most powerful loads in my book for reference. And I beleive in carryin as many weapons as possible, as bad chit seems to happen when you go to take a dump and leave your rifle in camp. As I said, I don`t plan on fighting an infantry war anytime soon. I`m one of those paranoid, conspiracy theorist, far right wing nuts that the media would describe as having an "arsenal" in my house. I figure the next war will very likely be on american soil, and I will take to the hills and play wolverine for a while.(WAAAYYYY off topic)!

And you can get a case with a seperated head out of an auto with a slap and cycle? Damn, you must slap pretty hard! And you are probably right O`connor would probably use the .280/308 (I can`t bring myself to use metric designations!

)
but I am a boring romantic and prefer cartridges with some "ghost". Thats why I love the old .44wcf! And I drive a `69 GMC could wup a golfs butt anyday!

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 10:09 AM

REXRAYGUN

Quote:
Originally posted by millernate:
2. Why use revolvers when automatics are easier to make?

3. The fashion. I sincerely doubt that fashions popular in the 1800s will ever come back into style again. Sorry but it might have made more sense to have the clothing be more modern (read: how you see ranch clothing today) might make sense.

I think that one thing that's being overlooked a lot is who these people are likely to be descendants of. People used to cities, tend to immigrate to cities, whereas it takes a ceertain mindset to live out on the frontier as a farmer.

Let's look at the two places where such expansion and ranching have been most prevelant, The USA and Australia. Rancher-types in both places adopted similar customs, dress, and for the most part, preference for functional firearms (rifles, shotguns) over machine pistols.

In addition, folks in those regions and lifestyles still tend to favor an Old Western look to their clothing, such as a preference for boots over dress shoes and Cowboy hats. They may have originally been bought to keep the sun and rain off, but now are as much a matter of pride and local culture as anything.

In addition, hunting and fishing are often passtimes that "country" people tend to enjoy. These passtimes don't require semi-automatic weapons, and with some maintainance, these weapons can last for centuries. The colonists in space could simply be hanging on to these possibly-outdated firearms for the sake of sentimentality, or cultural identity. Yes, there are semi-auto, pump-action shotguns now, but folks around here (Texas) are just as likely to have a double-barreled breakdown shotgun, and even less- likely to have a Striker.

As to fashions repeating, do any of you remember the way people, even up North, started dressing after Urban Cowboy came out? Anyone remember the rage a few years ago of "Southwestern" as a decorating theme? Heck, even LA Gangstas are susceptible to this, as there was reportedly an increase in the illegal sales of M1911-type .45 Autos, after Chow Yun Fat used them in a movie. This was even a topic of dialogue in "Jackie Brown."

More metropolitan folks would be more likely to live on the Alliance inner worlds, or at the very least, work in a larger city of a frontier world, such as was mentioned in the "Mrs. Reynolds" episode.

Just my dos pesos,

Rex!

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 10:28 AM

ZICSOFT

Quote:
Let's look at the two places where such expansion and ranching have been most prevelant, The USA and Australia. Rancher-types in both places adopted similar customs, dress, and for the most part, preference for functional firearms (rifles, shotguns) over machine pistols.

Hmm. Good point. I dimly recall reading somewhere that most "old west" cowboys used their six-guns mainly to kill nuisance animals -- only a few of which were of the two-legged variety. And Mal did grow up on a ranch.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 12:42 PM

REXRAYGUN

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Hmm. Good point. I dimly recall reading somewhere that most "old west" cowboys used their six-guns mainly to kill nuisance animals -- only a few of which were of the two-legged variety. And Mal did grow up on a ranch.

Which is why I say that his pistol and holster are probably heirlooms or hand-me-downs from his mother or one of the ranch hands. Sentimental value and familiarity are probably just as important as functionality or practicality to people who don't have much.

Just my dos pesos,

Rex!

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 12:42 PM

REXRAYGUN

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Hmm. Good point. I dimly recall reading somewhere that most "old west" cowboys used their six-guns mainly to kill nuisance animals -- only a few of which were of the two-legged variety. And Mal did grow up on a ranch.

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 12:56 PM

ZICSOFT

Quote:
Originally posted by RexRaygun:

Just my dos pesos,

Well, you're not the first rural guy to see stuff like this in Firefly that us city types missed. Which is just the sort of cultural difference that's obviously going to be at the center of a lot of stories.

Hmm, you've made me wonder if this isn't at the heart of the popularity of westerns, a genre that basically died off in the 70s. Before that date, most Americans would have spent their formative years on farms, ranches, very small towns, and other rural settings. Such people would enjoy adventure shows that reminded them of their own roots. But starting in the 1940s, America basically became an industrial countries, and after a while, people who'd grown up in an urban setting predominated.

Stop me if I'm getting too stuffy!

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 5:41 PM

REXRAYGUN

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:

Actually, I'm not a rural person at all. I live in Dallas, and moved here from San Antonio, which are two of the ten largest cities in the US. I am very much a city person, but I know what you mean

I think your urbanization argument is a valid one. Not as many people in the USA (or other countries, I'd imagine) have that connection to working the land, nor do they have as much experience surviving in such a rugged environment.

In addition, though there are plenty of farmers in Third-World countries would be skilled at farming, most of them probably would not have the same "Pioneer Spirit." What I mean by this is that they are usually farming the same land that their families have for generations,rather than opening up new areas for cultivation, while the ranchers and farmers of Australia and the USA are relative newcomers and had to tame the land.

Just my dos pesos,

Rex!

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 5:42 PM

REXRAYGUN

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:

Actually, I'm not a rural person at all. I live in Dallas, and moved here from San Antonio, which are two of the ten largest cities in the US. I am very much a city person, but I know what you mean.

I think your urbanization argument is a valid one. Not as many people in the USA (or other countries, I'd imagine) have that connection to working the land, nor do they have as much experience surviving in such a rugged environment.

In addition, though there are plenty of farmers in Third-World countries would be skilled at farming, most of them probably would not have the same "Pioneer Spirit." What I mean by this is that they are usually farming the same land that their families have for generations,rather than opening up new areas for cultivation, while the ranchers and farmers of Australia and the USA are relative newcomers and had to tame the land.

Just my dos pesos,

Rex!

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Friday, October 11, 2002 9:41 AM

ZICSOFT

Well, I've never been to Dallas or San Antonio. But I have been to Austin, and it seemed to me that the interpenetration of urban and rural was pretty heavy. And Austin's a fairly big city, with a social and cultural rep that easily as big as Dallas's. I think residents (even urbanites) of a state like Texas might have a greater sense of what rural living is like than does a state like California, where I've spent almost my entire life. We have a rural element too (I think we do more farming and ranching than Texas does) but rural and urban California don't interconnect the same way.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Friday, October 11, 2002 10:42 AM

REXRAYGUN

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Well, I've never been to Dallas or San Antonio. But I have been to Austin, and it seemed to me that the interpenetration of urban and rural was pretty heavy. And Austin's a fairly big city, with a social and cultural rep that easily as big as Dallas's. I think residents (even urbanites) of a state like Texas might have a greater sense of what rural living is like than does a state like California, where I've spent almost my entire life. We have a rural element too (I think we do more farming and ranching than Texas does) but rural and urban California don't interconnect the same way.

You certainly have a point there. Much like on Firefly, the "Country" in many Texans is more a matter of culture, than anything dictated by necessity. They feel that it is a matter of pride to hold on to that culture, though they, like me, may have lived in large metroplexes all their lives.

For example, it's still a matter of pride for many people in the city to buy a piece of land out in the country. Or a better example might be the owning of a big pickup truck, though they may only drive it to and from the office, guzzling gas. Like Mal's revolver, or Zoe's gun, it's not practical or efficient, but it matters to them.

I guess it might similar to a young Black person affecting an "Urban" way of talking and dressing, though his or her parents may actually be quite successful, like Dion's boyfriend in "Clueless." Working too hard to act and appear lower than they actually were brought up. And when White kids from Nebraska try that stuff, it's even weirder!

Just my dos pesos,

Rex!

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Friday, October 11, 2002 10:43 AM

REXRAYGUN

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Well, I've never been to Dallas or San Antonio. But I have been to Austin, and it seemed to me that the interpenetration of urban and rural was pretty heavy. And Austin's a fairly big city, with a social and cultural rep that easily as big as Dallas's. I think residents (even urbanites) of a state like Texas might have a greater sense of what rural living is like than does a state like California, where I've spent almost my entire life. We have a rural element too (I think we do more farming and ranching than Texas does) but rural and urban California don't interconnect the same way.

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Monday, October 14, 2002 8:24 AM

TRAGICSTORY

In response to the ANTI-TRAIN argument.

If we lived on a newly terraformed planet vast distances from each other would you rather have:

A. 1 spaceship which can leave the planet whithout you.

or

B. 1 train which is not going anywhere except where the track is.

If you hijack the train, the train is still there... If you hijack a space ship you are out the goods and the spaceship. It's alot more to lose.

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Friday, December 27, 2002 10:03 AM

2BMYSELF

Great thread, good plost & replys from all of you.

TRAIN ISSUE, Mag-LevTrains are more than possible...

We allmost have spray-on magnets now,
the cost of using a "cheap" road bed, say concrete, & then spraying with a magnet for a train track, would be reasonable in price.
upkeep woule be negligable.

Now all you have to do is propel the train, with the repulsion field cause by the magnets of the same charge overcoming most of the friction & drag.

Easy one.. (much cheaper to push somthing with natural forces doing most of the lifting work than pay for the fule nessisary to lift it off the ground repeatedly.)

AUTOS VS REVOLVERS

Auto = stamped metal. (mostly needs machines)
Revolver = machined metal. (can be done with hand tools)

Just look at the industrys that have been hand tooling guns now, under-developed countrys.
I know in Afganistan during Russia's time there, they had craftsmen hand tooling out Anti-tank rifles, among other things...
Why? No infastructure. Just like a the outer worlds on Firefly.

(good point on the functioning revolvers, that are a hundred years old, wt origional equipment)

Re-loading.
I garuntee that people with very little money would be re-loading their own shells. I've done it myself. Fronteer people would do it because it's practial.

(Btw don't revolvers handle special-(higher wt grain count of gunpowder)-loads better?

On a bulged case (misfire) in a revolver..
If I'm not mistaken you are talking about the case on the brass round. Would that not just make one of the revolver's (shell openings) un-usable? Ooh, so I can only re-load 5 more shots till I get a chance to work on the gun.
Would this not effectively dis-able a Auto?

GUNS IN SPACE
Yes ammo caries it's own oxidizer.

Guns would work about as well in space as they do in the extreme freezing temps, on this planet.
Check out how the Russians, Swiss, & Fins, deal with it. (I'm not shure actually. Anyone?)

In B52's they didn't oil & lube the machine guns, because the lubricant would freese & lock up the guns.

So I would think that a gun that had no lubricant would do fine. The extreme's of temp are really no worse off than what they go through on this planet.
I think that the main problem would be in having it in the sun & then in the shade, so that the metal would be exposed to rapid heating & shrinking.

So Jayne having his gun in a space suit to fire it in vacume makes a certain amount of sence. Jayne uses his gun on the ground. It's lubed so that it will fire under normal circumstances. Jayne put the gun in the suit to protect it from the cold, to keep the lubricant from freezing & locking up the gun.

ON "Retro" CLOTHING

I live in the city, yet I wear Chaps (leather coyboy leg protectors), every day.

I ride a motercycle. Similar needs will be met by similar solutions.
i.e. (The basic design for a spear has not really changed for a LONG d*mm time... you need to poke somthing hard & make it hurt? Put a knife on a pole)

The outdoors, ranching & farm living demand...
(Function over form)

I love the show, I reciently explained it to a gamer friend, it's "A Far-Trader Traveler Game!"

bkb

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Saturday, December 28, 2002 7:29 AM

FARADAY

Trains vs Planes:

Having only seen the Train Job ep once, perhaps I'm forgetting an important detail. But what makes anyone think the settlements on that planet were particularly far apart? If you were settling a recently-terraformed colony with a few small towns... wouldn't you want to build them fairly close together? In that scenario, I could easily picture a rail line connecting them. Especially if it's a fast maglev-type train.

Revolvers vs Autos:

I can't comment on modern revolvers vs automatic weapons. However, various folks have commented on the charging sound the Firefly weapons make when they fire, like they don't use the same firing mechanism as modern weapons anyway. If that's the case, any comparison to modern weapons in terms of power, craftsmanship, reliability, etc. probably doesn't apply directly.

Note: Rewatching Serenity, I noticed that the weapons in that ep seem to make a traditional gunshot sound when fired, but in later eps they sound distinctly different. Do you think that's something they changed from the pilot, or are they deliberately showing different types of weapons?

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Tuesday, December 31, 2002 7:04 AM

EVANS

Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:
Elbow length gloves. Incredibly silly but popular.

LOL! Years ago I read in some "behavior" book for young ladies that the lower the bodice, the longer the gloves.

m.
------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL
"None of it means a damn thing." Mal, in OBJECTS IN SPACE

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Tuesday, December 31, 2002 7:12 AM

BROWNCOAT

I'll be a testy SOB and just come out and say it: The folks that bellyached about the "sci-fi/western" elements being unrealistic and ill-thought out apparently lack two brain cells to rub together to actually think about the issue for a moment, let alone the imagination to just enjoy it for what it is.

I mean, hell, realistic belivability never got in the way of Star Trek or Star Wars.

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Tuesday, December 31, 2002 9:56 AM

ALLRONIX

Ah. 4-siders. I've got a blue one that I've nicknamed "Ranger Killer" because I roll it frequently when writing Galaxy Rangers fanfic. Each side represents a Ranger, and the dice determines who "gets it" if I can't decide.

Space Western seems VERY familiar after playing in that universe. "Hillbilly talk" in Firefly? After you've heard Jerry "Lenny Brascoe" Orbach let loose with a John Wayne impersonation, Nathan Fillion sounds perfectly normal.

(Gotta wonder if Joss ever watched Galaxy Rangers. Mal and River resemble Zachary and Niko...most of the time it's passing, but sometimes it's creepy).

Fashion...it's part of the look. Most "Space Western" sticks to the combination of fashion and set design, but kinda stops after that. Firefly has a LOT more Western than most of the fusions I've seen, and that's actually pretty keen. Besides, the fusion of Chinese and American looks GREAT.

OK, the rural parts. I so agree with that. If the first poster's grandma has a cell phone, I might be the person who got it running. Landline phones are pricey out there, even with the government subsidies on them. Customers come into our shops often after the competition or landline company tell them that it'll cost them some obscene amount to get basic phone service (not even long distance or the frills)! More than once, I've had the manditory "physical address" read something like "Double-wide trailer three miles off gravel road, two miles south of town hall."

No shit.

Co-founder of the Evil Writing Crew - causing hell, one hero at a time!

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Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:23 AM

TINYTIMM

Quote:
Originally posted by Evans:
Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:
Elbow length gloves. Incredibly silly but popular.

LOL! Years ago I read in some "behavior" book for young ladies that the lower the bodice, the longer the gloves.

Sounds like a plan to me!

Jeff
Who has silly little fetishes...

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Wednesday, May 26, 2004 6:02 PM

SUCCATASH

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat:
I mean, hell, realistic belivability never got in the way of Star Trek or Star Wars.

So true! Great post.

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 10:06 AM

ROCKETJOCK

To me, it all comes down to something Robert Heinlein said in "Farmer in the Sky", one of the best novels ever written on the subject of colonizing a terraformed world:

"Horses can make baby horses, which is a trick tractors haven't picked up yet."

This is a quasi-quote, as I don't have the book handy, but the spirit is accurate.

"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein

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Monday, May 31, 2004 4:47 AM

FORRESTWOLF

My father-in-law just watched the show for the first time, and had a really hard time during Serenity accepting the scifi-western concept. He's quite the sci-fi fan, and perhaps that's the problem. Anyway, there ARE people who can't get over it, even when they watch it in the RIGHT order (i.e., DVD's). Sigh...

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:49 AM

LTNOWIS

On the trains issue, I think the trains would be more efficent for connecting a string of mining towns alongside a mountain range and a military base inside one of the mountains. Of course, I'm no expert. The other people on the planet wouldn't be connected. But even if it wasn't the most efficent way to do things, this is the Alliance we're talking about. They're probably not the most efficent people.

PS: It feels weird responding to posts a year and a half old.

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 3:03 AM

LTNOWIS

double post, sorry.

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 3:04 AM

LTNOWIS

Quote:
who thinks it arrogant as hell that one of the least prevalent of world cultures in the last thousand years (19th century west continental America) be the one that all future 'frontier folk' should choose to emulate!.

You'd think there'd be more Hispanic or African people, what with their massive space programs

Again, sorry for the double-response to ancient posts, but I thought it'd be nice to bump this insightful board to the top.

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