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Originally posted by Niki2:

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Finally, for all of Joss Whedon's feminist cred, his concepts easily fall into exploitation rather than empowerment. He often falls into the trap of trying to put the women on a pedestal, rather than portraying them as real in all their strengths and flaws. And that is a form of marginalization (read Simone de Beauvoir). Dollhouse's treatment of its women is very shallow, unlike, say, Dark Angel.
The final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer almost made me gag, the way Buffy turned into a selfish, deluded, stupid, self-righteous bitch. This is why Faith and Willow were always so much more interesting than Buffy.

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Found that very interesting--in that I never liked Buffy (because I thought those adjectives described her perfectly for eight years), but loved the show. And I admit all of the female characters in Firefly might well come under the same description: pedastalled.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Interesting. All of them?

River perhaps might be "pedastalled." Hurt dark waifishly ethereal girl who can kick ass is probably someone's female fantasy.

Zoe's attitude and strength is as well, I think Wash pretty much sums up that angle.

But Kaylee and Inara...? While both are attractive, even drop-dead gorgeous, I also always got "just a regular girl" vibes from them, where Kaylee is the tom-boy and Inara is the lip-stick and high-heels girl.

And I've also always thought that Inara was about deconstructing pedestals. She's introduced as a character who is arguably higher on the social totem pole than anyone except the Tams before the Academy, but she's also shown to be "one of the gang." The only character who resists that inclusion is Mal, who does put her on a pedestal in a way that I think is meant to illustrate how foolish his behaviour is.

Kaylee too, yeah she's a little harsh on Simon now and then, but I thought one of the themes there was to get Simon to loosen up. Respect, but without being ridiculous or condescending.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
As to Inara and Kaylee--to me, Inara is about as "pedastalled" as anyone could possibly be. The untouchable goddess. And Kaylee's ability to work miracles with Serenity...that's not put on a pedastal? What I saw, in both Firefly AND Buffy, was the men screwing up, but rarely the women. The men did stupid stuff, the women made cracks about it (along with others of the men)...but the women rarely made dumb mistakes.

That's just my opinion.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
Wait.... miracle worker Engineers who always fix the ship are pretty much a staple of the genre. Why is no one complaining about Scotty being on a pedestal?

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think the women did make mistakes. Wash is rightfully pissed at Zoe in War Stories for her non-support, which actually causes the main problem in the episode. River has some tendencies to wander off and cause problems, though after the Reaver massacre, that probably won't feature as much with her. Inara has shown some extremely poor judgment in regards to clients, and also made what I think was a mistake in deciding to leave, though I can understand why she did. Kaylee... Okay, I can't actually think of any times where Kaylee made any mistakes, except that one time when she gets pissed at Simon and starts flirting with Tracy, but that was really minor. Kaylee has, however, shown some naivety and lapses in judgment that I suspect would have gotten her in trouble eventually.

Do the men make mistakes MORE OFTEN? Probably. It could be possible that it's harder for the average audience to laugh at women making mistakes than it is men, because perhaps audiences tend to see women as more vulnerable. Most of the time when the men make mistakes in Firefly, it's played for laughs.

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Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Wash can also work miracles with Serenity, though from the pilot's chair rather than the engine room. Kaylee is touchy and emotional, which does call attention to Simon putting his foot in his mouth, but neither of them is in the right most of the time. And it's rather amusing to me that you would call someone who gets paid for physical intimacy, among other things, untouchable. Inara isn't untouchable, she's closed off. So is Mal. Neither of them is willing to just come out and say what they're feeling because they have huge blocks around it. They're two of the most fallible characters on the show for this reason. Zoe might be the most 'pedestalled' of the bunch, but she also clearly has her flaws. Her split loyalty can and has caused tension in her marriage, and she's not very good at talking things through when she's upset, as shown by her reaction to Saffron, among other things. Yeah, Mal gets beat up on a lot, but he also saves the day and does the right thing. Jayne kind of bumbles around a bit and messes up, but you definitely want him in a fight and sometimes he can save the day and do the right thing... sometimes. Simon puts his foot in his mouth, but he also fixes people and saves the day. And Wash... well, he saved the day numerous times. He would occasionally argue with his wife and was ambivalent about children, but even with one engine and 20% power the man could land a giant spaceship without seriously injuring anybody. So if you're going to talk about characters on a pedestal, he needs to be included there, too.

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Originally posted by kpo:
the woman is right in the argument... because duh, she's the woman!

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I'm having some trouble coming up with any situation where the woman was totally right and the man was totally wrong, and that's just how it was because she was she and he was he.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I *DO* think Joss tends to worship women. He seems to be perpetually in awe of the amazing power of adolescent girls and young women, something I think he probably first witnessed in middle school, and has never really gotten past. In fact, he's built up that power and multiplied and magnified it, until in him mind, young girls are super-beings. And he's not far wrong, is he? All the world falls at the feet of beautiful 18 or 20 year-olds, yes?

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They don't pass judgment on who's right or wrong in this case

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until in him mind, young girls are super-beings. And he's not far wrong, is he? All the world falls at the feet of beautiful 18 or 20 year-olds, yes?

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Huh. Well, I don't really see Zoe as putting blame on Simon. As ever, Zoe is hard to read, but her demeanor doesn't even say "you shouldn't have done that" or "I can't believe you" or even "idiot". I seem to recall Zoe actually kind of puts her arm around Simon, and she seems more to be smiling, not in a mocking way, but sympathetic and understanding.

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Or, if not, is there something in Kaylee's past that explains her overreaction? Kaylee seems to have a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim.

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I think Simon and River have a better than close relationship, and that scene struck me as something I would have done with my sibling if they had been shot down - make a slightly cutting remark as a joke to lighten them up. I'm betting Simon saw it that way as well.

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...maybe she's just particularly defensive around him? It would be interesting to learn if there were any particular incidents in her past that may have contributed to that, or if that's just how she is. She reminds me sometimes a little of the main character in Memoirs of a Geisha...except she never becomes a geisha.

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Saw some mention of feminism equalling or in relation to physical beauty, attractiveness, nublity. Some have denied this correlation, some have championed the case.
Hate to break the news, but physical attractiveness is a power among humans, both for females as well as for males. Not saying it should be that way, but it is. The so-called "beautiful people" have a distinct advantage in business and other competition, particularly sales. Not much point in denying it.

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Check the last full paragraph of fearthebunnyman.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Or, if not, is there something in Kaylee's past that explains her overreaction? Kaylee seems to have a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim. Where might that come from?

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Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
Oh, and to get back on the topic, bytamite brought up Book which was a good point; Book's checkered past aside, we have him and Wash as to main (male) characters that, as far as I can recall, are virtually faultless. Are they pedestalled? and if so, you figure that's why Joss killed them off? ;)

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In earnest, I don't read "a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim" from Kaylee at all. Way I see it, Kaylee is perfectly happy in her 'simple' life. Her life is organized in pretty much the same manner as, say, her attitude towards sex: uncomplicated, devoid of shame or intrigue. And she likes it that way; it is her way, even.

Kaylee's first reaction to meeting Simon is perfectly understandable, without having to resort to inferiority complexes. Here she is, young girl of the Rim, meeting a high-class Doctor. 'Naturally' he makes her heart tick faster, but not because she's feeling inferior to the high social circles he moves in. I would even go so far as to say she cares not one iota for that stuff (as evinced, for example, in her perfectly unstrained relationship with Inara). Rather, she's 'flattered' by the idea -- for lack of a better term -- that she, a simple girl, could be with a Doctor. Simple as that. She's never aspired a life of social politics (as we saw at the Tam residence), or ever felt sad or inferior for not going to the D'arbanville's Ball (except, in the most general sense, that as a girl she's flattered when a guy takes her to a ball; see Shindig). Speaking of Shindig, it's very clear that the way of those high-society girls is not just entirely foreign to her, in the sense being unfamiliar to it, but is also wholly contrary to her entire soul make-up. It's simply not who she is, wants to be, or ever felt inferior over not being.

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Oh, and to get back on the topic, bytamite brought up Book which was a good point; Book's checkered past aside, we have him and Wash as to main (male) characters that, as far as I can recall, are virtually faultless. Are they pedestalled?

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but portraying a young woman like Kaylee acting in an immature fashion, as she does, is terrifically realistic.

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Yes, Kaylee overreacts, but what Simon says in the three cases I can think of are both somewhat hurtful, if not intentional. Clearly they were hurtful enough to not roll off Kaylee, so what WOULD be the proper way to act hurt?

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm going to have to respond here with a Nuh-uh!

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Why does Kaylee want the layered cake dress so much?

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Why is she hurt by the girls who correctly notice that she doesn't fit in at the ball and belittle her social status?

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It IS foreign to her, because she wouldn't ever put someone down according to status, but that doesn't mean that when it was targetted at her, it didn't sting...

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... and that she didn't want to make friends and feel like she belonged.

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... The rest of the ball after that, for Kaylee, is about reaffirming her own comfortable place in the verse through talking about mechanics with the men, who are willing to respect her skills.

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And once she feels secure again, back on Serenity what does she do? She gets a music download off the Cortex of the song they were playing at the party, and hangs her dress up in her room just so she can look at it.

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I am NOT saying she's interested in high society because of a mercenary desire to move upwards, but rather because she thinks "Aw, it's so shiny! *sigh* *heart*."

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Now, maybe an actual inferiority complex is an exaggeration, because I think most times, I would agree with you that Kaylee likes who she is and what she does and her life as a spacer. But she's very concerned about making a good impression on Simon...

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Remember when Jayne makes a joke at the table about Kaylee in the pilot episode? The comment really isn't far off from something Kaylee HERSELF might normally say, but she acts ashamed and embarrassed, BECAUSE Simon is there to hear it.

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I still think she over-reacts, and does wrong to Simon (after his clumsy wronging of her), and this is never commented upon, as if it is perfectly normal and ok. And not just in this one example, a few times throughout the series I think Kaylee over-reacts but the in-story commentary (a different female character swooping by and delivering a glare) is very one-sided against Simon.

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