the real shepard book by tudyksgagreel

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

the real shepard book

POSTED BY: TUDYKSGAGREEL
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 06:11
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Thursday, April 8, 2004 10:16 PM

One thing that occured to me, and I am most likely just reading too much, but I think a cool possible double entendre would be in Serenity,
when Mal confronts Simon in the cargo bay and accuses him of being Alliance (or a Fed?). Book off screen says something like "I'm afraid you have the wrong man"

Now obviously the main way to interpret it is at face value- that actual Fed guy pointing the gun is who Book is referring to. But what if it is a sly in-joke/twist that Book is referring to himself?

I'm not saying that Book at that moment was a Fed/Alliance/cop but that that was a hint of what he was before.

That would explain why Book was in the cargo (as was raised in another thread) he had to be the one to say it for the hint/joke to work!

In anycase like others I think Book is the most fascinating character on Firefly.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 9:36 AM

SKYDANCE

Couple things I haven't seen pointed out yet:

1. Book isn't just proficient in combat. He's an expert marksman and at least competent in martial arts. Ground forces learn weapons, but don't need unarmed combat skills. It smells like some sort of Secret Agent training (or something like what Zoe learned in the military).

2. Book does get dropped off at "Bathgate Abbey" in Ariel.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 10:25 AM

CRAZYIVAN

As a clergy person myself, I have always felt in my gut that Book was no Shepard. I just bought the DVDs, never caught the show on TV, and haven't listened to any of the commentaries, or watched any of the final DVD in the set. I've only watched the other shows once, and lost a lot of sleep to get them all in in one night-- but in my heart, Book is not a man of the cloth. Inara is the pastor on the ship, Book is the (pardon Stark Trek Deep Space Nine reference) "Garak"-- the "tailor" who has secrets from his service in the Obsidian Order. My only beef with what Joss has done with Book is that too much was revealed too soon. Of course he was under pressure from Fox execs to make things more interesting and he had to rush things along; I would have prefered to have these interesting tidbits about Book revealed over a much longer span of time. I certainly hope Joss doesn't give it away in the first movie.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 11:47 AM

KARENKAY99

Quote:
Originally posted by Malicious:

1st: Simon "I would be there right now..."

2nd: Jayne: "I got stupid. The money was too good." (Does this sound familiar? Did Jayne say this to Mal when Mal put him in the airlock? Or maybe when Simon finally realizes it was Jayne who turned them in and threatens him?)

Yep, exact quote from jayne in ariel said in the past. Simon's exact quote was said in future.
The others quotes were not seen so we don't know if they were said in past or future.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

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Monday, April 19, 2004 8:46 PM

HPJC

Just wanted to add my thoughts to the mix here. I re-watched the pilot, "Serenity" and noticed a few things about Book. Near the end, when he's talking with Inara about being on the wrong ship, he asks "Is this what life is... out here?" which leads me to believe that while Book may be trained in combat and have a lot of knowledge, I don't think he's actually ever seen combat or really been out in the world.

Possibly, he comes from a very rich, very powerful family that has ties to the Alliance. Perhaps his father was part of the military, possibly a high ranking official, and Book had a 'military' upbringing without much actual field experience.

It could be that he believed that the Alliance was 'good' and his father and the military were helping the people and was an active supporter of the alliance, believing that he was actually helping people, though in reality was hurting more of those who were less fortunate part of society. I believe that he may have ended up getting a bunch of people killed, without realizing what was going to happen. Realizing that his good deeds have been harming people, he heads off on his own to try and find redemption and meaning, turning to God and the abbey.

Hence, when River sees him say "I don't give half-a-hump whether you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?", it is something that he is worrying about, but has 'pushed' out of his mind. He was doing wrong, but under the belief that it was good, so he could be considered innocent, yet, that really doesn't matter as he still committed evil and he doesn't really know where he stands with his redemption.

Not sure if that all makes sense in my post, but I can assure you that it makes sense in my head!

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 2:26 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Safe to say he wasn't always a shephard. Looked to me like he boarded before Simon though, so I don't think he's after the Tam's in particular. I'm not even sure he's working for the Alliance either, although his name is known to them - whatever his name is on his ident card. Just because he's "called Book" doesn't mean that's his real name, now does it?

I would say there is probably a 75% chance that Book is not the Shepherd's real name. If Book's religion is some distant form of catholicism which i believe it is then it would make sense that Book was not the name he was given at birth. It is very very common for those who become priests, monks, or nuns to change their names or at least add on to them. This signifies their new life in their faith with a new name and everything.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Here's to Jayne, the man-ape-gone-wrong-thing"
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 2:39 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

What if Shepherd's comment that River reads is something that somebody said to HIM in the past? Maybe he was framed for something and that was something the acting officer said to him because he was up against the wall and needed to have somebody to point a finger at for the crime.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Here's to Jayne, the man-ape-gone-wrong-thing"
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 3:50 PM

MORDRAIG

I distinctly get the impression that the quote is Book's. I think River was getting the most prevading thoughts on the minds of each person. What it is they think about all the time in mental down cycles.

As to Book's ID. I have to go with Military Intelligence. I think Blue Sun has overstepped their bounds with the experimentation but the government is in the dark or feels unable to respond to them for whatever reason.

I think Book was key in arranging Rivers break out, and is following her to observe and retriever her for the military. I don't think she gets alot of reads off of him because of his MI training, being soo in character that you think along the lines of the part to be able to resist even drugged interrorgation.

Where he stands now in relation to his job now is a bit more fuzzy. After receiving med help and waking back up on Serinity he says "Good to be home" I think he is struggling with the act (preacher), what he observes about the crew and River, and his real objectives.

This being the case, the "Half a Hump" comment could be what he is thinking about telling Jayne when he confronts him. Having learned about Jayne's sellout of Simon and River on Ariel from channels while aboard the Alliance cruiser he is angry that Jayne almost screwed up the Military plan to get River away from Blue Sun.

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Friday, April 23, 2004 11:58 PM

BRITCHICK

Going through some of these posts about River's reading people made me re-think what might have happened here.

I wonder if River was suffering from a bit of paranoia (if you can suffer "a bit" of it!).

She was very upset in that episode, and she seemed to end up believing that no one wanted her. So it seemed to me that the thoughts she picked up were interpreted (by her) to be thoughts against her (when they may have beenjust out-of-context thoughts, as mentioned earlier in this thread).

For example: Simon's apparent regret which looked like he was blaming River. Simon does not really regret what he did to save her, but it may be River feels very guilty about it and therefore inteprets some of his comments to be reinforcing her guilt.

ANd similarly with Book. He may have been talking about himself, about Jayne, or someone from his past... but River interprets it in such a way as to reiinforce her feeling that they don't want her.

ANyway, just a thought :))

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Friday, June 25, 2004 8:28 PM

JALEN

Book is old intel... Run the list....
early recognizes him....he isn't a shepherd.
he is good with martial arts.
he has a vast knowledge of ships (knows about the extenders on the aught three firefly)
He knows about various crime lords and crime operations.
He has alliance ties that grant special privileges.

He's either Intelligence Alliance, or a war hero who in the eyes of an independent would be a mass killer.

River only read the minds of things that were spoken by that particular individual.
Jayne, I was stupid, the money was too good (said that to mal in Ariel)
Simon, I could be there right now (told that to Kaylee in the episode with Early.
inara and malcolm, it's possible taht those quotes of their's were from future episodes that never saw the ilght of day.

Shepherd has ties with a lot of people, and if early knows him (obviously alliance special forces training).. he is an alliance covert operation specialist... either a deep sleeper or got fed up.

Alfonso

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Sunday, June 27, 2004 6:22 PM

THEZOOMZOOMKID

I personaly belive that Book was a pretty high up alliance General

who, after the war, realised what he has done and wants to make amends. He first becomes a precher, then tries to help out one of the people he hurt the most by winning the war, Mal.

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Monday, July 5, 2004 5:12 AM

FEMALEJAYNE

I don't think Mal wants to be alone. I think he enjoys taking care of his crew, but he may feel that he is all they have. Maybe he is trying to make up for the loss of his troops... Anyway I think being free of everyone would create a prison for Mal.

With Hope because love is nothing without hope.

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Tuesday, July 6, 2004 10:29 AM

BOOKSWORD

I have a feeling that he really is a Shepard.
( Either that or Ron Glass has blinded me with his remarkable acting chops)
Early said that Book was no Shepard he sounded kind of snide so my theory is that he was sneering at Books attempt to be one. Meaning I suppose that he knew what he was before.
Speaking of which what do we know

1- Is an intellectual
Which speaks of either higher education on par or supressing Simon or Intelligence
2- He is formidable combatant on par with Zoe at least which could indicate a military past
3- He is a people person, he talks quite a bit with Jayne who either tolerates him or likes him and besides Mal who for obvious reasons doesnt like him via religous connections. Most of the crew either trust or respect him to some degree.
4- He knows the inner running of the criminal world and has indepth knowledge of firefly craft as well as other ' talents'
So heres my thorey.

I think he is the Delann character of Firefly.

I think there was a council of war in the early begining of the Alliance\Independents war when they where discussing actions and proberly some Independent moderate with a clear head offered to hold some peace talks.
There was proberly votes and it was a tie and it was up to him.
But the man that he was was an arrogant man. Intelligent , high bred and going places, ambitous he saw the war as a stepping stone.
Proberly trained while young to be strong, faster, smarter and better he thought the independents as rabble who didnt know their place.
So he voted for war.
He was proberly a brilliant tactician maybe even a personal advisor to Yu Kwan maybe even an counter intelligence co-ordinator.
Maybe his intelligence helped win a key battle in the unification war - maybe the Serenity battle itself which helped turn the tide.
So picture this he goes to the valley and then he sees the real price of his actions, the wounded and the dead, and then he breaks down and has an epipheny at his own worth.
Perhaps there where fireflys being used to helped the wounded and in a numb state he removes his uniform to help the wounded and just walks away from his command and position.
Ferrying a ride with the wounded to another place and he just wandered from place to place numb by guilt till he got to the abbey.
High command cant say hes awol so hes ID is still Valid. Also they proberly teach some of his tactics at Achdemy or something.
Also as head of Counter intelligence he has instant access to all types of knowledge including the underworld.
But while he tries to make himself a new man part of him is still the cold, ruthless, tactician that River saw in Objects in space.
Maybe thats why Book says that he is no Shepard. Maybe hes not a Shepard yet.
But thats why he went into space. It was easy for him to think he changed in the Abbey, he had to see how much of that cold man was left. So he went out into the universe he helped create.

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Wednesday, July 7, 2004 10:18 AM

CLOVIS

As people have said above, I think Book was an Alliance officer and that he was the officer that won the battle of Serenity Valley. It's possible that he's on some sort of sabbatical leave, or that, at least, he left the Alliance in their good books (hence the medical help, which I doubt he would have got if he were AWOL from his Alliance post). In any case, he left because he learnt about the Blue Sun experiments and couldn't stomach them. Perhaps he had a part in setting them up, then became disillusioned and revolted, hence the quest for some sort of spiritual renewal. I think he really is a shepherd now and Early was only seeing Book's past.

Or. His distress in Inara's cabin at having got on the 'wrong ship', may have come from a conflict between his desire for peace and him still being linked somehow (perhaps in an undercover role) to the Alliance and Blue Sun. If that was the case, he'd know all about River and Simon. But then, if he is undercover and doesn't tell the Alliance about River and Simon and the Alliance discover he's been on the same ship as them all this time - it looks bad for Book. He's either a spy who's keeping tabs on them, or he genuinely is a shepherd, having left the Alliance legitimately.

Book's distress in Inara's cabin, which, by the way, I always find utterly heart wrenching, also sort of upholds the idea of him being the officer that won Serenity. His distress could come from guilt, and Inara's comment 'perhaps you're exactly where you ought to be', could have more meaning than just, 'these people need a shepherd'. Book's time on Serenity could be a form of atonement for him.

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Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:12 AM

JAYNESADDICTION

I agree book is alliance, however I wonder how stable the alliance is. The Blus Sun Corporation (the ones who most likely screwed up river) play a major role in the Alliance so My thought is that Book is alliance millitary (possibly even a hero of the battle of Serenity) and that he may be working a deep cover op trying to expose the Blue Sun Corp. The Simon/River incident is a perfect way to expose the Blue Sun's evils. I know I'm ignoring the logic that Book came on the ship first, however with his abilities to read people maybe he figured that Serenity was Simon's only way off Persephone.

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Monday, July 26, 2004 4:22 PM

RATNUT12

Just noticed something after watching the Serenity pilot for the umpteenth time that hasn't been directly mentioned in this thread. When Book is talking to Kaylee before deciding to board Serenity he mentioned that he used to fly in a Firefly class ship some time ago. Given that the alliance looks down at fireflies and some believe they are the favorite vehicle of choice for smugglers, it's quite possible that Book was a smuggler type sometime in his past. It would answer alot of the previous posts' questions in regard to how he learned to fight, why he knows about other criminals and why he seems as smart as Mal when it comes to figuring out who or what the scam is. Now perhaps he later went on to join the alliance brass or perhaps he was a freelance smuggler who came across Independents war plans and passed them on to the Alliance(for a price, of course) and that could explain his good graces with the Alliance and could also explain his later guilt and religious conversion.
Now that's alot to chew from just one line in the pilot, but the pilot is all about exposition and backstory.

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Monday, July 26, 2004 9:00 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by jaynesaddiction:
I know I'm ignoring the logic that Book came on the ship first

I agree with your analysis. My take is that Book was directed by his True Alliance cell to Serenity who knew that Simon was shipping out of Persephone on her. We don't know the mechanism or exact timing, but don't need to.

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Tuesday, July 27, 2004 6:49 PM

SUPERFLY

Well, this thread’s pretty long, but I’ll throw my hat into the ring.

I think Book is exactly what he says he is. He’s a Shepard. There are too many pieces of
evidence throughout the series to mention here, but some are 1. His encounter with River and the
Bible not only seemed honest, but there was no reason for it not to be. 2. He warned Mal about
going to the special hell if he took sexual advantage of “Saffron.” 3. He was taken aback and uncomfortable when first faced with Inara’s profession. Etc etc.

But, I think it’s safe to say that he has not always been a Shepard. Again, too many pieces of
evidence to mention. ... just a few.. 1. Can make the caliber and model of a gun by seeing the
bullet wound. 2. Is obviously highly trained and experienced in martial arts. 3. River saw some
things in Objects in space that happened in the past.... In Book’s past, we see he had no mercy for
the innocent. Etc. Etc.

So, my conclusion is that Book was an Alliance assassin... Black Ops, if you will, trusted with and given clearance for the highest priority missions where secrecy, stealth, and murder were needed. And he probably fit the bill too. Highly skilled, cold-blooded, willing and able. At some point in his career, something had an impact on him. He found religion, left the profession, and sequestered himself away in an Abby. I don’t think he has a lot of active guilt. I think he has, in Christian terms, been born again, all of his sins washed away.

Of course, even if I’m right, I just wanna know what arrow was so thin it actually hit whatever
conscience he had. Was it a job, a mark he walked away from? Why? Who? Did they let him go willingly? Or did he have to flee or fight his way out?

So, um... that’s what I think.

EDIT: awwwww stupid word processing program with its invaluable spellcheck. Sorry for the format.

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 10:52 PM

Hi all!
Just got through watching the fantastic DVD set (OK watching for the third time!

)
Thought I'd jump in on this thread.
Thing that I noticed in Objects in Space that caught my eye.
When the crew are all sitting round the table discussing River, and Mal says (something like) "I think its more than intuition, I think she's a reader. Am I alone in this?"
Book immediately (and quite solemly says "No".
The rest especially Wash dismiss it as "sci-fi" (love that bit).
Only Book seems to take this seriously.

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 7:39 AM

BRUISERSMOM

The special room in hell may not be part of the Bible but may be from other literature and has seeped out into American culture because I've heard people use that phrase before it was used in Firefly. I don't know the exact work of literature from which it springs but other works of literature have created multiple hells. One of these works is Dante'e Inferno, which has seven layers to hell, each layer progressively worse than previous one and the worse spot in hell being reserved for Judas who spends eternity in the devil's mouth. Also, if you watch Buffy and Angel, there are many hells and demon dimensions made up there.

Something a lot of people haven't mentioned is in the Message Book knew that the cop was out of his jurisdiction and was able to fight this cop's attempts at bullying the Serenity crew into handing over Mal and Zoe's old comrade by pointing out that he was way out of his jurisdiction and didn't alert the local federal police post, so the cop was not on official Alliance business. Brook would have to know something of police work to know these things and no one else on Serenity thought of it.

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 2:12 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Book knew that the cop was out of his jurisdiction and was able to fight this cop's attempts at bullying the Serenity crew into handing over Mal and Zoe's old comrade by pointing out that he was way out of his jurisdiction and didn't alert the local federal police post, so the cop was not on official Alliance business. Brook would have to know something of police work to know these things and no one else on Serenity thought of it.

Yep. It think is a big clue to Book's life before he became a Shepard. Someone else compared Book to Brother Cadefael.

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Thursday, September 16, 2004 8:36 PM

CHARKI127

"Of COURSE he was a cop.

Just checkout the TV Land network and see "Barney Miller"!

Mystery solved... "

I try not to post late at night for obvious reasons, but 11thHour your timing was perfect. Still smiling. charki

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Friday, September 17, 2004 9:43 PM

11THHOUR

Quote:
Originally posted by charki127:
I try not to post late at night for obvious reasons, but 11thHour your timing was perfect. Still smiling. charki

Whoa... blast from the past post!

Nice to see the joke still works all these months later.

11thHour

________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty... happy."

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Monday, September 20, 2004 5:08 PM

CHARKI127

Well I am a Newbie in every way. I just watched the Firefly series on DVD and just joined this group. Which, by the by, is fantastic.

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Monday, September 20, 2004 7:03 PM

THEREALME

So is this group fantastic, or is the series?

Or both?

Welcome!

The Real Me

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Monday, September 20, 2004 7:49 PM

CHARKI127

Both! And thanks. charki

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Monday, September 20, 2004 10:12 PM

11THHOUR

Quote:
Originally posted by charki127:
Well I am a Newbie in every way. I just watched the Firefly series on DVD and just joined this group. Which, by the by, is fantastic.

Welcome to you, Newbie in every way...

So glad you found both the Firefly DVD and this shiny site of Firefly goodness... and you're right about the fantastic part...

You probably have already found some of the other great Firefly websites, but here's a short list of some of the cool ones:

Firefly Message Board:
http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly

Official Universal Studios Serenity movie site:
http://www.serenitymovie.com

Browncoats fan website:
http://www.browncoats.com

Very Spiffy Fan Website for Serenity movie:
http://www.serenitymovie.net

A lil' ol' web page with some posters on it:
http://the11thhour.home.att.net

Again, welcome to this corner of the 'verse!

11th Hour

________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty... happy."

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Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:06 AM

BOOKSWORD

Being in New Zealand we wont get the movie a long while yet.

I wonder, if the movie does come out would fans perfer a final revalation or prefer to be teased about the Good Shepards past ?

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Tuesday, September 21, 2004 10:30 AM

CHARKI127

Wow THANKS 11thHour!! I had the Serenity movie site but not the others. This will help occupy my time until April. charki

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Friday, September 24, 2004 3:41 AM

11THHOUR

Quote:
Originally posted by Booksword:
Being in New Zealand we wont get the movie a long while yet.

I wonder, if the movie does come out would fans perfer a final revalation or prefer to be teased about the Good Shepards past ?

Just a guess, but I see Joss giving us some juicy info to answer some of the questions... but taking his time revealing all the tales to tell with our mysterious, and deep water, Shepherd Book.

I'm just going to go with the faith that Serenity will do very well, and we'll get the full trilogy. Joss has huge faith in Firefly so most likely he will be "rationing" the mysteries along the way so as to give us a little... but always have plenty more to surprise us with...

I know that's the way I'd like to have the stories unfold.

11thHour

________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty... happy."

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Friday, September 24, 2004 3:44 AM

11THHOUR

Quote:
Originally posted by charki127:
Wow THANKS 11thHour!! I had the Serenity movie site but not the others. This will help occupy my time until April. charki

You're most welcome... and you're right, these forums are a great way to keep the Firefly fires burning while we make our way to MOVIE TIME! Yay!!

11thHour

________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty... happy."

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Tuesday, October 5, 2004 3:02 AM

THECREEPER

Hi gang:
A new guy here. I have absolutely nothing to back up my guess, but here goes: Book was a high ranking military man who believed that the ends justified the means. This idealism did pretty well for him until he got some bad intel. He and his soldiers stormed into what was supposed to be a base of Independant terrorists and turned out to be nothing more than a school or hospital for children. The sight of all the dead kids was more than his icy heart could take. He forsook his previous life for that of a shepard where he would never have to face death like that again. He did his stint in the abbey and then went to spread the word of the lord to others. He saw Serinity and saw it as a sign from above (Serenity Valley and all). That's my take, your mileage may vary

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 6:11 AM

JASMOM

I recenetly watched all the Firefly episodes for the first time on the DVDs. I'm a huge Buffy/Angel fan and I think that this is a great show as well! After watching the pilot "Serenity" I immediately thought of Book as being like Andrew Wiggin from Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game" and "Speaker for the Dead." I believe he is someone who was trained possibly from a very young age, as a fighter - maybe even picked out, as River was, by an earlier version of the "Academy." I think that he played their "game" until he became disillusioned and bitter. I like the idea that some of you have put forth that he was in charge of the battle of Serenity Valley, and saw all the death it caused and decided to change his life and become a Shepard. Like Andrew Wiggin became a "Speaker for the Dead" after his fighting years, and saw his "enemies" in a new light. I think that his former position allowed him access to quick medical attention, or that he has family in high places.

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