Objects in Space - River's wanderings by Rabit

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Objects in Space - River's wanderings

POSTED BY: RABIT
UPDATED: Monday, June 28, 2004 17:45
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VIEWED: 10701
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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:02 AM

Okay, I had a theory that I wanted to bounce off of everyone. If you haven't seen Objects in Space, please stop reading now!

While River is wandering about at the beginning, "listening" to everyone's thoughts, I noticed something. No one acknowledges her presence when she enters. You'd think that Kaylee and Simon would, at least, but Mal and Inara would not have that conversation if she was standing there (especially the DVD version!), and they couldn't really miss her.

It was as though she was mentally floating around the ship, and her body was off doing its own thing (which apparently involved getting into Jayne's guns...). Eventually the two "regrouped" and ended up in the 'bay.

(I still think that Jayne did leave the gun out for her, but I'm not going into that theory here...

)

Rabit

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:15 AM

JCOBB

Its fairly obvious, at least to me, that River wasn't "visible."

Though that gun bit at the end confused me somewhat.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:16 AM

TALLCARDDEALER

Hmm...that is interesting.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:48 AM

TDTMF

just so happens that we watched that ep last night. i would say that she is not visible to the others, but reading minds from either her room, or as she walks to the bay.

the fact that the others all show up there so quickly - as soon as she picks up the stick/gun - seems to support that.

one thing i didn't go back and check; is that the same gun she used in war stories? probably not - but if it is, perhaps it was left somewhere in the bay, or maybe river hung onto it....

the big question for us about the ep was, what did book mean by his comments and what does that hint at about his past? oh, the possibilities....

td

mal to jayne: well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:55 AM

JCOBB

Nope, different gun.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 10:20 AM

RAISTLYNNE

Might be River was actually physically wandering around the ship. Maybe she can 'mask' her presence from others at will when she looks into their minds. Also, it couldn't have been too difficult to get one of Jayne's pistols from his quarters. I mean, this IS Jayne after all, he's not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Add this to your theory collection.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 10:36 AM

TDTMF

interesting thought.

but why whould she go into his room to get a stick? it seemed to be something she stumbled across? there on the deck....

td

mal to jayne: well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 11:20 AM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:
Its fairly obvious, at least to me, that River wasn't "visible."

Seemed obvious to me, also, but in speaking with some of my friends I learned that I was the only one who came to that conclusion.

Quote:
Originally posted by tdtmf:
interesting thought.

but why whould she go into his room to get a stick? it seemed to be something she stumbled across? there on the deck....

Ah, but we also "saw" her walk through rooms with people that were oblivious to her presence.

I don't really think she found it in his quarters, though. I have no idea where she found it - and I don't think we'll ever know - but I honestly think that Jayne probably did leave it out on purpose, just because that's our lovable mercenary for ya...

Actually, I love the fact that it was left ambiguous; we just don't know if Jayne did it or not!

Rabit

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 11:45 AM

MYORANGEHAT

Quote:
Actually, I love the fact that it was left ambiguous; we just don't know if Jayne did it or not!

Just like, were's not sure if anyone from Family Guy can understand Stewie.

Quote:
but I honestly think that Jayne probably did leave it out on purpose,

But he'd be in as much danger as anyone else if she started shooting the place up. Possibly MORE because she knows he betrayed her.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 12:01 PM

RYSH1

I dont think Jane left the gun on purpose, when you are working(and a gun is all in a days work on Serenity) you tend to set things down and forget where you left it.
Ever have a several hour search for your car keys for that same reason?
Ever find them in the refrigerator?
Stuff gets left about and River just makes it tough to be leaving the wrong kind of items about,2 year olds produce the same effect.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 12:14 PM

ZARK1976

Can we move this in a not-jayne's-fault direction?

J/k just wanted to use the quote.

Could be he's harboring some resentment at us for putting his man through our engine.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:35 PM

JESS

I had wondered about this. I thought that possibly she was doing something to make them not notice her. Or just being very quiet, since I don't think anyone looked at her besides what they 'said' when she was reading her mind, which didn't actually happen.

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 6:19 AM

MER

What about the gun? Could it have come from Wash's truck thingy? I also question if she went into one of the rooms to steal it while her mind wandered around.

I would think she's walking around and nobody's paying attention to her. I wish I knew why she had pictured everything as leaves and sticks. O_o I just hope the Blue Hands don't mask things to get 'jobs done'. Like you're in LaLa land while yout body's off killing people.

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 6:31 AM

SYDNI64

In "Shindig," the others seem not to notice River in the kitchen until she starts freaking out with the cans and boxes. River's actions are probably generally so incomprehensible to everyone else that they just tend to ignore her, so much so that they don't even notice they're doing it. While I thought it was odd that she was walking about undetected in OIS, I think it's still plausible that she simply wasn't noticed. In fact, when the theory that she has "become the ship" is refuted at the end, Joss seems to be poking fun at the viewers and at the characters. He's teasing us: "Did you really think that River could *become* a *ship*?!" I think he's telling us that the Firefly 'verse is strange, but not *that* strange, River's spooky, but not *that* spooky and her abilities are not *that* far-fetched, and it's a reminder not to take certain sci-fi standbys for granted on his show. It seems to me that invisibility would come under the same heading as that.

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Friday, June 25, 2004 11:49 PM

THEREALME

Soon after the gun is taken from River (next scene?), Mal and Jayne are talking about this. Jayne and Mal both agree that it is Jayne's gun. But Jayne protests that he wouldn't leave his hardware lying about.

I believe him. Guns are a serious business for Jayne, and Jayne might still be concerned that River will find a gun lying about and use it to shoot him! Kill him with her mind? Maybe, but a gun works just fine, too!

Anyway, Mal and Jayne go on to talk about it being impossible to get into the gun lockers without the combination. Around this time is the "Not in Janye's fault direction" quote.

I think it's obvious. For some reason that is not yet clear, River decided that she needed a gun. She read the mind of Jayne or someone with the combination, and got a gun.

Since it was fully loaded with the safety off, I think it is clear that River was READY to use it, all the while being oblivious as to what it was that she was holding.

She's scary!

I think she got a gun ready to oppose Jubal Early, whose "voice" woke her near the start of the episode. Of course, when everybody gets freaked out that River has a gun, it blows her concentration and she becomes "wacky fun" River again.

Right. And I am also of the opinion that River's body was down in the cargo bay playing with a gun while her mind wandered around reading the minds of the rest of the crew.

The Real Me

Got Mudder's Milk?

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Saturday, June 26, 2004 2:05 AM

KALIMEERI

Quote:
Originally posted by THEREALME:

I think she got a gun ready to oppose Jubal Early, whose "voice" woke her near the start of the episode. Of course, when everybody gets freaked out that River has a gun, it blows her concentration and she becomes "wacky fun" River again.

Right. And I am also of the opinion that River's body was down in the cargo bay playing with a gun while her mind wandered around reading the minds of the rest of the crew.

The Real Me

Got Mudder's Milk?

I may be the only one, but I don't really think River can kill with her brain. This is her idea of a 'joke' on Jayne because that's what spooks him most about her, and she knows it. Since Simon is into threatening... she's saying to Jayne 'don't mess with me, either.'

I agree that she is not physically there, listening to the crew. A strange voice woke her, and she's trying to find and identify it, using her Alliance-enhanced mental power. Where she got the gun is anybody's guess, but I don't see Jayne being careless. Experts aren't careless, and he's all about guns.

She's afraid of guns; even tho she does pick one up in War Stories, she had to close her eyes and make the shooting into a mathematical equation. The 'twig' thing may be her attempt to see the weapon differently, to rationalize it.

Jen dao mei.

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Saturday, June 26, 2004 5:10 AM

THEREALME

I was half joking about the "killing with the brain thing".

But only half joking.

The Real Me

Got Mudder's Milk?

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Saturday, June 26, 2004 1:33 PM

DEANNAMAY

I need to go back and watch that episode, because I could have sworn they had both Simon and Kaylee smiling at her, after Simon did his thing about saying he would be there now. I have a faulty memory, so perhaps I am remembering that wrong. I do agree that how she got the gun is a mystery, and why she wasn't seen carrying it about the ship as she walked around.

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Saturday, June 26, 2004 2:59 PM

NEDWARD

Quote:
Originally posted by kalimeeri:
I may be the only one, but I don't really think River can kill with her brain. This is her idea of a 'joke' on Jayne because that's what spooks him most about her, and she knows it.

Agreed. Direct brain-killage would seem as unlikely as ship-melding, and Joss vetoed that in OiS, so...

What I can't decide is if the line is (a) the writers playing it for a laugh, (b) River knowingly using what spooks Jayne, or (c) River stating the obvious in her wacky way. After all, guns don't kill people ("It's just an object..."), people do, so every time we kill, we kill with our brains. From a certain point of view.

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Saturday, June 26, 2004 5:32 PM

GUNRUNNER

Has anyone noticed that River got Jayne's gun and he says he dosn't leave his hardware laying around but in The Message he leaves his door open with his guns laying on a table for Tracy to get and shoot Wash with!

I guess he dosn't leave his guns unsecured unless there is someone he wants off the ship to get it.

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Saturday, June 26, 2004 7:06 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Interesting theory.

In my opinion, i think Joss was just trying to show how wrapped up the crew had become in their own lives that they didn't even notice River walk through...

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

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Saturday, June 26, 2004 8:15 PM

THEREALME

I take the scene where Simon and Kaylee smile at River as part of River's mind reading. It shows their fondness of River, perhaps.

I cannot believe that Book would ignore River if she walked past he and Jayne. Book would have said hello. He is one of those caring, nurturing guys, not self-absorbed at all.

I also find it difficult to believe that Mal and Inara would both a) miss seeing River on the stairs and b) carry on the "Inara is leaving" discussion in her presence.

Okay, MAYBE Wash and Zoe would miss her peeping during their make-out session.

I think that River was not seen by the others. Either she was reading their minds from a distance, or she was clouding their minds so that she could not be seen by them. The latter would not require transparent invisibility to light. It would only be the strong mental command, "You don't see me!" If a camera were on her, recordings of her could be seen.

It is clear to me that this beginning part of the show was River's PERCEPTION of what was going on. This is how River sees the world. This view must then be reconciled with reality.

The Real Me

Got Mudder's Milk?

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Sunday, June 27, 2004 9:21 AM

PINGJING

Quote:
Originally posted by DeannaMay:
I need to go back and watch that episode, because I could have sworn they had both Simon and Kaylee smiling at her, after Simon did his thing about saying he would be there now.

I remember that too. This is a slight tangent, but I think the way Kaylee looks at her when Simon says his thing is a little scary. No smile, no compassion. It's weird to see her like that.

My $0.02:
This is an interesting theory, but I think some people's reactions (Simon, Jayne and maybe Inara) were provoked by her presence, which is why I think she *was* actually there. Simon, for example, looks directly at her when he says he would be there now. He seems to blame her. Jayne also looks directly at her when he says the money was too good. He obviously feels guilty. I don't think he would have had that thought randomly in the middle of a conversation about masturbation. The only other person who looks at her directly is Inara, when she says "You can tell me, I'm a big girl", but I haven't figured her out yet. I also don't know why they would have continued to talk about Inara leaving in River's presence, except that maybe they really didn't see or hear her. She was, after all, walking around barefoot, and those two, as we know, are really into each other.

Julia

Jayne: "Well, I say as a rule that girlfolk ain't to be trusted."
River: "Jayne is a girl's name."

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Sunday, June 27, 2004 11:25 AM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by THEREALME:
I think she got a gun ready to oppose Jubal Early, whose "voice" woke her near the start of the episode. Of course, when everybody gets freaked out that River has a gun, it blows her concentration and she becomes "wacky fun" River again.

Yes!!! Awesome - that's exactly the missing piece that I needed. I'd forgotten that she heard Early's voice. That makes complete sense to me. Many thanks!

Quote:
Originally posted by pingjing:
Quote:
Originally posted by DeannaMay:
I need to go back and watch that episode, because I could have sworn they had both Simon and Kaylee smiling at her, after Simon did his thing about saying he would be there now.

I remember that too. This is a slight tangent, but I think the way Kaylee looks at her when Simon says his thing is a little scary. No smile, no compassion. It's weird to see her like that.

My $0.02:
This is an interesting theory, but I think some people's reactions (Simon, Jayne and maybe Inara) were provoked by her presence, which is why I think she *was* actually there. Simon, for example, looks directly at her when he says he would be there now. He seems to blame her. Jayne also looks directly at her when he says the money was too good. He obviously feels guilty. I don't think he would have had that thought randomly in the middle of a conversation about masturbation. The only other person who looks at her directly is Inara, when she says "You can tell me, I'm a big girl", but I haven't figured her out yet. I also don't know why they would have continued to talk about Inara leaving in River's presence, except that maybe they really didn't see or hear her. She was, after all, walking around barefoot, and those two, as we know, are really into each other.

No offense, but I'd seriously suggest that you watch the scene again. At those special moments (Jayne's money comment, Simon's "be there now" comment, etc.), there is a distinct transition out of the realm of normalacy just before it and another transition just after it. For example, in the case of Simon's comment, he and Kaylee are laughing, then they are suddenly serious as he makes his comment, and then they are laughing again as though the comment was never said. This just doesn't make sense to me if taken literally, as though she were there. I think that both Simon and Kaylee would actually say something to her, if she was. They wouldn't ignore her and just keep on talking, would they?

A friend of mine suggested some importance to the individuals that looked at River when making their "comments". I honestly don't think that this is the case - I really think that they just lined people up in positions that made sense. I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time!

), but it seems more that the idea of her reading their thoughts in general was the important aspect.

Thanks for the conversation on this, folks! It's greatly appreciated...

Rabit

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Sunday, June 27, 2004 11:42 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Rabit:
A friend of mine suggested some importance to the individuals that looked at River when making their "comments". I honestly don't think that this is the case - I really think that they just lined people up in positions that made sense. I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time! ), but it seems more that the idea of her reading their thoughts in general was the important aspect.

I'd say everything in the episode is pretty carefully blocked out - given how carefully Joss does "these" episodes (this was clearly one that was going to play out for a good long while), where people were looking and the way things were said probably does mean something. Its like the fact that nobody touched Giles in Season 7 Buffy, Little Miss Muffet and all those other tiny little things.

My view was if they were looking at River, it was a thought about her - else it was a general though bubbling under.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, June 27, 2004 12:36 PM

THEREALME

Rabit, you are welcome. The idea of River vs Early came to me as I was writing that reply.

I agree with the idea that the stark transitions are important when they go from laughing it up, to serious but cryptic statements, and then back to laughing it up.

Right. Like the statements never happened.

I am also inclined to believe that the directions the characters were facing when delivering their thought-messages are significant, but I am less sure of that.

The Real Me

Got Mudder's Milk?

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Monday, June 28, 2004 3:49 AM

RABIT

Heh, I'm a firm believer in the fact that every little thing has meaning in some way.

Unfortunately, Inara's looking at River while making a comment that is - to me, anyway!

- blatantly directed at Mal... Well, that one is what troubles me. It breaks the pattern of people looking at her regarding comments that are in some way about her.

This is a case where I'm looking forward to being wrong. I really want someone to find out why some of the crew are looking at her and some aren't! But until then... I'll assume there isn't meaning to it.

Rabit

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Monday, June 28, 2004 4:37 AM

THEREALME

In another thread this idea came up. The theory that I put forth was as follows:

Looking at River = comment about River

Looking at self (Book down at his hands) = comment about self

Looking away or at nothing = comment general in nature.

In that other thread, someone belived that Inara was not looking directly at River, but slightly off to one side. I haven't had the chance to confirm this yet.

I don't think Inara's comment is about Mal at all. She is a companion and can read people. She KNOWS that Mal loves her. And at the end of Heart of Gold he was about to confess his love when she shut him up by announcing that she would leave.

The Real Me

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Monday, June 28, 2004 4:58 AM

EVILTOBZ

i'd agree that inara didn't seem to be looking quite at river. it seemed like she was actively looking away from mal whilst expecting him to come out with something that she didn't want to hear. I'd also argue that in the context of her little insight bit, that it wasn't actually mal that she was talking with, but his being there allowed that sort of body language thing to happen.

---------------------------------------------
eviltobz - that's lowercase gorram it!

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Monday, June 28, 2004 5:55 AM

GUNRUNNER

Quote:
Originally posted by THEREALME:
Looking at self (Book down at his hands) = comment about self

Look what was in Book's hands- The Knife River used to slash Jayne and his Blue Sun shirt.

Opens the possablitys dosn't it.

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Monday, June 28, 2004 7:01 AM

ZAFTIGZOE

Luckily for me I have the DVD so I could look at the scene in question more intently. Here is my take on the matter. Forgive me for getting semiotic here. We have been discussing the presence versus non-presence of River from scene to scene. A couple of things occurred to me.

First, as someone here has mentioned, the first scene is from River's reality. We have a girl with a parced brain -- hence the stop-and-start cutting of the frames as opposed to pan shots or continuity.

Second, in practically every scene -Kaylee/Simon, Zoe/Wash, Jayne/Book - River enters via a doorway. What if she physically doesn't walk through said doorway? What if it is her mind that is entering rooms and hearing conversations and not the body entering rooms?

I think that River is sleep walking (remember Simon has been trying to find the right drug cocktail to make her sleep through the night). So in fact she is walking through the ship but people don't see her because she physically is out of their line of sight. Being a teen, River takes the thoughts of the crew personally, at times. But more freaky to her is the fact that she can hear them at all.

But I think that this business with River is more than mind reading. I think that she is empathic as well. Take a look at the scene with River and Zoe/Wash. There is more than just hearing there -- there is feeling as well. River gets caught up in the emotions and the physical act (note her caressing her own arm in the scene).

Now the twig bit... here things get interesting. River knows damned well what a gun is and what it is for: we saw this in War Stories. If I was able to calculate where the enemy is and then kill without having to look then I would do it that way too. Who wants to look at blood and gore and guts? (don't answer that)

Now throughout this series River's role has been that of the mythological Cassandra: ie. she has the gift of "prophecy" but nobody believes her. I think that the loaded gun is a warning of Early's approach. Perhaps Joss is teasing us with her line "it's just an object". Does he mean "it's not guns that kill, it's people who kill with guns" or is it a Freudian "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"?

I do not think that Jayne left the gun out for her. What I do think is that River empathy may be showing again -- she is not preparing for Early. She is in Early's head as well - the twig and the leaves on the ground represents Early's home, as seen the picture of his (grand?)mother and his dog. River is enacting what Early plans to do to anyone who gets in his way. Remember, he's crazier than River is.

ZaftigZoe

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Monday, June 28, 2004 9:42 AM

THEREALME

Oooo! River is getting into Early's head! I never considered that! That's good, too! Now I can't decide!

The empathy along with thought reading sounds right. And yes, I never thought that River was really present during any of those readings.

The Real Me

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Monday, June 28, 2004 11:00 AM

DIXIEFLATLINE

Hmmm. A couple of thoughts:
I'm still not sure whether to think River was "really there" or not in the initial walkthrough. I agree it does seem a bit like she was an astral projection, but on the other hand River has become, in some ways, the "ship's cat". By which I mean that her wandering through the room is like having a cat wander through the room -- you know it's there, but you also know that there's no hope of having a meaningful conversation with it, so you ignore it and go on with what you were doing. It's just part of the background scenery.

Also, as far as "killing people with her brain", I think there's a middle ground in interpreting this. I would say that what River did in "War Stories" was kill three heavily-armed enemies with her terrifying brain. Her brain did it by pointing a gun, but there's nobody else around who could have done what she did with that gun.

And if her brain ever seriously decides to point that gun at Jayne, fast and tough as he is, I'd say he's got a whelk's chance in a supernova of surviving the experience.

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Monday, June 28, 2004 11:38 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by ZaftigZoe:
Now throughout this series River's role has been that of the mythological Cassandra: ie. she has the gift of "prophecy" but nobody believes her. I think that the loaded gun is a warning of Early's approach. Perhaps Joss is teasing us with her line "it's just an object". Does he mean "it's not guns that kill, it's people who kill with guns" or is it a Freudian "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"?

Also works as a clever play on Chekhov's gun - if you show a gun in the first act, you damn well better fire it before the end of the final act - 'cept the real "gun" is River as Mal points out.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Monday, June 28, 2004 12:23 PM

LOFWYRR

After rewatching the episode, another thing stuck out a lot. Kaylee is the only one on the ship who isn't focused on by River and her 'vision'. Is it because Kaylee is exactly what she seems to be?
Although, during her vision on Simon, both Simon and Kaylee are looking directly at River.

Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are flammable and conduct electricity

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Monday, June 28, 2004 1:43 PM

ZAFTIGZOE

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
Quote:
Originally posted by ZaftigZoe:
Now throughout this series River's role has been that of the mythological Cassandra: ie. she has the gift of "prophecy" but nobody believes her. I think that the loaded gun is a warning of Early's approach. Perhaps Joss is teasing us with her line "it's just an object". Does he mean "it's not guns that kill, it's people who kill with guns" or is it a Freudian "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"?

Also works as a clever play on Chekhov's gun - if you show a gun in the first act, you damn well better fire it before the end of the final act - 'cept the real "gun" is River as Mal points out.

"I threw up on your bed"

Correct. And it goes further than that. When River picks up the gun (which she sees as a twig) she says that "it's just an object". Later, Early is hunting down River he waxes prosaic to Simon on the design of his gun. The thing is, to River, a gun is "just an object". It is as if her statement is in fact a reply.

Now THAT's spooky.

still seeking Wash
ZaftigZoe

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Monday, June 28, 2004 5:45 PM

THEREALME

Regarding Kaylee looking at River but not being read...

I think Kaylee WAS read. I think that River was absorbing the regrets of the other characters, or the hidden things in their backgrounds.

Wash and Zoe were exceptions, because they were too occupied to have regrets at that moment.

Kaylee, being the most open and with nothing to hide, did not broadcast such a message to River ASIDE FROM the expression she gave.

What was that expression? It's been a while. I'll have to crank up the old DVD player...

The Real Me

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