My least understood River's by ManiacNumberOne

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

My least understood River's

POSTED BY: MANIACNUMBERONE
UPDATED: Friday, April 14, 2006 16:40
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 18459
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Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:14 PM

Here I am again asking y'all a question about this show that seems to dominate my life.
So, I'm watching Shindig again for the umpteenth time and as always I can make no sense at all about River's scene in the galley, where she is taking the labels off the cans of food. I don't have a great tape of it, so it's hard to hear everything she is saying, but I made out parts of it and it doesn't make too much sense with what she is doing to the cans. Why is she doing what she's doing? I know her words are fragmented, but believe it or not, most of the time she has made sense to me. I am just curious what y'all might think is up with this.

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Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:25 PM

FLYINFREE

She is removing the Blue Sun logo from all the cans. The same reason she slashes Jayne's shirt, it has a Blue Sun logo on it.

Still flyin'...

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Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:41 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I like your theory. I know that the Blue Sun logo is on just about everything, but I didn't really notice any prevalence of Blue Sun logo's on any of the cans she was ripping at.

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Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:46 PM

FLYINFREE

I couldn't see the logos on the cans either, I just read a post somewhere that said that was the reason. Had no reason to doubt it.

Still flyin'...

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Thursday, July 31, 2003 2:44 AM

BARNEYT

And this reason's probably a good one - however, there's no reason why all of River's episodes should be easily explainable.

(Allow for the fact that I haven't seen the last two episodes yet, so if anything's explained there I won't know about it!

)

But my understanding of what River is going through is that it is so extreme, that there may not be a direct correlation between what she thinks and what she actually does. It could be something as small as the colours causing odd reactions in her brain that means she need to get rid of the labels because she sees that as a way of getting rid of the pain.

After all, when she's slices Jayne's tee-shirt, what she says is 'he looks better in red', which makes me think she was reacting to something other than just the Alliance symbol.

I think relating her actions simply back to the Alliance symbols is simplifying it too much.

Then again, if that original post you read, FlyinFree, was written by Joss, then I'm obviously wrong and all the above burbling should be ignored...

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Thursday, July 31, 2003 5:17 AM

LJC

Actually, I think it was Jose Molina, in either an interview or a series of posts on TWoP...

--
Some take the high road. Some take the low road.
And some just go screaming down the highway, dropping flaming bits of wreckage.

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Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:48 AM

TALRIUS

Here's what she says Maniac.

RIVER
There it is, there it is. It's
always there if you look for it.
Everybody sees and nobody sees it...

These are the ones that take you!
Little ones in the corner that you
almost don't see. But they're the
ones that reach in and do it.
They're the ones with teeth and you
have to smash them!

A million things, and the
little ends of the roots go
everywhere and when you
brush your teeth or all the
little blue things are
there but no one says it
because, because sometimes
they're afraid. And then
they come....

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Thursday, July 31, 2003 9:27 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
I like your theory. I know that the Blue Sun logo is on just about everything, but I didn't really notice any prevalence of Blue Sun logo's on any of the cans she was ripping at.

One has to wonder how long it would have taken them to figure out what her trigger was. Then how much stuff they would have to River-proof by removing the Blue Sun logo. Woulda liked to have seen that.

“We three are the only ones in this place wearing brown. Means we’ve found something worth fighting for.
Something worth being more than alive for.”
Sarahetc

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Thursday, July 31, 2003 9:51 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Thanks everybody for your expert responses. Seeing the actual words River was saying certainly cleared things up a bit. talrius=shiny. Once again I feel like posting a question here was an excellent idea. I am flabbergasted... maybe flummoxed is a better word. I am very pleased, let's leave it at that.

Question about Inara while I have you here. Does anybody else get the idea that the persons who are in the most high companion guild positions are men? I was thinking about Inara, and I keep getting the feeling she doesn't want to be a companion.

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Thursday, July 31, 2003 10:12 AM

WHOODAHN

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:
She is removing the Blue Sun logo from all the cans. The same reason she slashes Jayne's shirt, it has a Blue Sun logo on it.

I hadn't thought of that. Now I have a couple of questions.

Is the Blue Sun part of the Alliance or is it a massive/powerful shipping company?

Do the Blue Hands work for the Alliance or Blue Sun?

Does the Alliance do what Blue Sun tells them to do, is it another case of big business controlling the military?

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Thursday, July 31, 2003 3:07 PM

SERENITYVALLEY

I just saw that episode again about ten minutes ago, before I even read this post. The Blue Sun thing is definately what came to mind after hearing that one interview on the Fox site. When she moves on from the cans, there's a bunch of tiny packages with Blue Sun logos on them. I too was trying to understand what she was saying, but I couldn't make it out. Thanks for the translation.

"I Jonathan Donnely take you Sharon Carter to be my lawful wedded bride. To hold and to have. Whether we have money or not. Whether you're feeling not well or well. Until one of us is dead." --Nathan Fillion (Two Guys and a Girl)

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Thursday, July 31, 2003 4:33 PM

MELEAUX

ok I just purchased two blue sun t-shirts Should I be worried that I am aligning myself with the Alliance?
By the way I did vote for unification

She understands, she doesn't comprehend

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Thursday, July 31, 2003 5:20 PM

TALRIUS

No, Jayne wore one so I don't think there's anything to worry over. Now if you find yourself wearing black suits and blue latex gloves then I'd think you should worry.

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Monday, August 4, 2003 11:02 AM

SERENITYVALLEY

Oh! I got it.
I think she IS having a reaction to the Blue Sun when she slashes Jayne for this reason: His shirt is Blue Sun (as we've already said), but BLUE sun, and she doesn't like Blue Sun therefor he looks better in RED. Blue? Red? Get it? Don't say I'm stretching it. Just think about it.

"I Johnny Donnely take you Sharon Carter to be my lawful wedded bride. To hold and to have. Whether we have money or not. Whether you're feeling not well or well. Until one of us is dead." --Nathan Fillion (Two Guys and a Girl)

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Monday, August 4, 2003 11:21 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I always thought that she slashed Jayne because he was fixin to betray them.

Jayne’s blood was dark red, and dark red is associated with rage, anger, malice, and wrath.

If I had a psychic premonition that someone was going to send me back to torture and pain I would be angry and enraged. That would "color" how I saw them, her action was wrathful, and Jayne was malicious.

Her action brought (symbolicly) what was inside of him (malice) out, let other people see him the way she looked at him (anger, rage) and brought her wrath aupon him while showing it in the blood she let out.

Normaly I ignore color meanings but it is River we're talking aobut, she would know all this.

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Monday, August 4, 2003 11:51 AM

BLACKSTAR

'Course, she could of just been playing some kind of game... coloring without the crayons, so to speak. With River, you never can tell.

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Monday, August 4, 2003 4:58 PM

BOUNTYBOY56

And that, my fellow browncoats, is what makes this show so great. Who woulda thought a little thing like what's on Jaynes shirt or what kind of food River was tearing up could be such a huge thing and give people so many ideas and theories. Its the subtle things that are really huge sleeping plot twists that make this show amazing. I say once again, DAMN YOU FOX!

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Monday, August 4, 2003 11:35 PM

DRAKON

I always thought that she slashed Jayne because he was fixin to betray them.

Ya know, I got the impression that Jayne betrayed them on Ariel BECAUSE River slashed him. We are in chicken and egg territory here.

"my kind of stupid"

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Tuesday, August 5, 2003 12:41 AM

ZARQUON

An image of the ship the blue hands guys flew in Ariel was released a while ago, which was titled the Blue Sun Ship. Kinda makes it obvious that they work for Blue Sun. (Although I know it was never said in an episode). That being the case, it's pretty easy to deduce why River would have so much animosity towards anything Blue Sun related.

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Tuesday, August 5, 2003 6:35 PM

VAMPBUNNY

River could not be reacting to Jayne's thought of betraying them. Because at that time only Innara was getting off the ship. Mal had just told everyone they could not get off, he didn't even want them looking out the window.

It was not until Simon came to them after Mal told him to keep River locked up and if he could not find a way to control they would have re-visit the deal they made, that Jayne even had a chance to betray them.

So it had to be the Blue Sun logo she was reacting.

Sure getting stabbed may have made the idea pop in his mind when he saw a chance. But unless River was just reacting to his general dislike of them being on board. I still say it was the t-shirt.

Keep Flying. See you in the world

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Thursday, August 7, 2003 4:15 AM

SAKRYSTA

Ah, but River has displayed precognitive abilities as well. In "Objects in Space" as she's wandering around the ship, she "hears" people say things that they have said in the PAST, are thinking but not saying, and will say in the FUTURE.

...still a little whimsical in the brain pan...

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Thursday, August 7, 2003 10:36 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I got the impression from how Jayne spoke to the person he arranged it with that he had been planing it for quite a while, it was just that this was the perfect opportunity.

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Thursday, August 7, 2003 4:41 PM

SIRENKAIN

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
I got the impression from how Jayne spoke to the person he arranged it with that he had been planing it for quite a while, it was just that this was the perfect opportunity.

Jayne may have been planning it but the River attack decided it. I don't think the fact that River attacked him is what pissed him off (I mean besides being attacked). I think he was more upset that Mal took it so lightly. Mal gets his dander up when any one of his crew is hurt or threaten. He brushed aside the River/Jayne incident like Jayne was not as important as anyone else. I think Jayne was hurt (feelings I mean) and was trying to fix Mal more then River.

My question to the Group - Where the hell was I that I miised all the Blue SUn Stuff? Where did they start using it? Must have been gazing at Jayne and forgot to pay attention.

Morbid and creep-ifying I got no problem with.

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 11:56 PM

AMNESIAC

They made it very clear that Jane was wearing a Blue Sun logo when River slashed his chest.

They didn't show the blue sun logo when she was tearing off the labels of the cans. So methinks the label tearing incident had more to do with the nature of labels and cans, or surfaces and contents.

If Blue Sun was trying to make Summer into a psychic assasin in the body of a pretty girl:

These are the ones that take you!
Little ones in the corner that you
almost don't see. But they're the
ones that reach in and do it.
They're the ones with teeth and you
have to smash them!

Is she talking about what they were turning her into? They were trying to change the contents of her can?

spaceships, gunfights, and the human condition what more could you want?

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Monday, February 2, 2004 6:08 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Talrius:
Here's what she says Maniac.

RIVER
There it is, there it is. It's
always there if you look for it.
Everybody sees and nobody sees it...

These are the ones that take you!
Little ones in the corner that you
almost don't see. But they're the
ones that reach in and do it.
They're the ones with teeth and you
have to smash them!

A million things, and the
little ends of the roots go
everywhere and when you
brush your teeth or all the
little blue things are
there but no one says it
because, because sometimes
they're afraid. And then
they come....

Wild scary.
You know, if you read that a certain way, it honestly ALMOST sounds like she's referring to RFID tags.. or am I just wiggin here ?

Straight up, it's the first thing I thought of.
Weeeeeeirdnesss.

-frem
diefuxdie.

(PS. Link for them's that dunno what I am talkin about - http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/ )

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Monday, February 2, 2004 8:53 AM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Question about Inara while I have you here. Does anybody else get the idea that the persons who are in the most high companion guild positions are men?

I doubt it. In HoG, Nandi says something like "they don't have guilds out here, and they even let men run the houses..."

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Monday, February 2, 2004 9:00 AM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Wild scary.
You know, if you read that a certain way, it honestly ALMOST sounds like she's referring to RFID tags.. or am I just wiggin here ?

Straight up, it's the first thing I thought of.
Weeeeeeirdnesss.

It may be even worse than that...in one of the other threads, someone hypothesized that all blue sun products may be laced with some chemical-/ bio-/nano- technology that helps the alliance control the population somehow (perhaps even making it possible to use those sonic brain-melting stick thingys that the blue hands used in Ariel)

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Monday, February 2, 2004 9:15 AM

STATIC

I think this is one of those situations where the simplest explanation is probably the one we should go with. . .unless the commentary specifically says otherwise, I think we can take what we know of River's experience, the fact that Blue Sun has their logo on almost EVERY consumable there is, and it was, in fact, on Jayne's shirt. . .that's what tripped her trigger. . .THAT time. It's also the only time her outburst was OVERTLY violent. (not counting war stories, which wasn't so much an outburst)

For my Master's thesis in Abnormal Psych, we're supposed to do extended evaluation on someone. . .Fictional or Historical character. . .not allowed to do someone we could actually INTERVIEW. . .and I picked River. It's very challenging.

If FOX hadn't been idiots, I'd be DONE by now.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Monday, February 2, 2004 9:55 AM

SERENA

Static,
I haven't read all of this thread but I'm thinking that River would have been a very challenging subject for your Masters Thesis under any circumstances. I totally feel your frustration with Fox. Wonder if you could sue them ...

________
Simon: Can you move your feet?
Kaylee: Are you asking me to dance?

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Monday, February 2, 2004 10:02 AM

STATIC

Maybe I could get them to reimburse me for my tuition. . .especially since the Army is paying for it, so I could 'double dip'

heeheeheeheeheeheehee.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Monday, February 2, 2004 10:03 AM

SERENA

Don't forget to throw in "pain and suffering"!!!

________
Simon: Can you move your feet?
Kaylee: Are you asking me to dance?

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Monday, February 2, 2004 8:41 PM

FFYING2

Quote:
Originally posted by Static:
I think this is one of those situations where the simplest explanation is probably the one we should go with. . .unless the commentary specifically says otherwise, I think we can take what we know of River's experience, the fact that Blue Sun has their logo on almost EVERY consumable there is, and it was, in fact, on Jayne's shirt. . .that's what tripped her trigger. . .THAT time. It's also the only time her outburst was OVERTLY violent. (not counting war stories, which wasn't so much an outburst)

We can't see "Blue Sun" on the cans, but you're right that we can assume they're made by Blue Sun. However, we can see the Blue Sun logos on her next victims: the two boxes of cracker packets. The logos are small. The first one's upside-down, and the second one is sideways.

It's also in the script:

Quote:
River has three cans unlabeled, and she's crushing a box of crackers. It has a visible, not emphasized, "Blue Sun" on it. She gets more violent and loud as she continues.

RIVER
These are the ones that take you! Little ones in the corner that you almost don't see. But they're the ones that reach in and do it. They're the ones with teeth and you have to smash them!

-------------------------------------------------

Quote:
For my Master's thesis in Abnormal Psych, we're supposed to do extended evaluation on someone. . .Fictional or Historical character. . .not allowed to do someone we could actually INTERVIEW. . .and I picked River. It's very challenging.

Wow, go for it!

Keep flying! (literally)

Ying
Firefly Funsite http://fireflyfunsite.home.att.net
Firefly Chinese Pinyinary http://fireflychinese.home.att.net

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 7:28 PM

CHEAPJOE

I havent seen the EP in a few weeks, but as i recall, Simon and Jayne were having a little altercation just before she slashed him. I always thought of that as what started it. Maybe thats what drew her attention to the shirt. Lots to think about though.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 8:22 PM

ADEPTUS

FireflyWiki has a good explanation of this (which has been covered at least a bit.) Forgive me if this has already been posted (I didn't have the patience to read through all the posts:

http://www.average-bear.com/wiki/index.php/BlueSun

Check it out.

No power in the 'verse can stop me.

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Sunday, February 29, 2004 4:09 AM

ZEVSKA

Quote:
RIVER
These are the ones that take you! Little ones in the corner that you almost don't see. But they're the ones that reach in and do it. They're the ones with teeth and you have to smash them!

This kinda makes me think she's talking about the tiny logos. Subliminal messages contained within or something. 'The little ones in the corner that you almost don't see'.
Freaky.

Btw, hi all *waves*

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Thursday, May 13, 2004 7:23 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Quote:
Originally posted by WhooDahn:
Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:
She is removing the Blue Sun logo from all the cans. The same reason she slashes Jayne's shirt, it has a Blue Sun logo on it.

I hadn't thought of that. Now I have a couple of questions.

Is the Blue Sun part of the Alliance or is it a massive/powerful shipping company?

Do the Blue Hands work for the Alliance or Blue Sun?

Does the Alliance do what Blue Sun tells them to do, is it another case of big business controlling the military?

The sad thing is...we'd know the answer to this question had shoing mao niao Fox not cancelled our show!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

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Sunday, June 13, 2004 5:32 PM

RIVERGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by Talrius:
No, Jayne wore one so I don't think there's anything to worry over. Now if you find yourself wearing black suits and blue latex gloves then I'd think you should worry.

since the subject of Jayne and his Tshirts came up--is there a list of which shirt Jayne wore in each episode

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Monday, June 14, 2004 9:09 AM

TALRIUS

No, sorry there is no list. It would make an interesting bit of trivia though. If you would like to create one it could be posted here as such. I suppose I could help but that means I'll have to stop watching Farscape season 2 long enough to watch Firefly again, but it might be worth it.

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Saturday, July 17, 2004 6:27 PM

SHINY4004

Quote:
Originally posted by Zevska:
Quote:
RIVER
These are the ones that take you! Little ones in the corner that you almost don't see. But they're the ones that reach in and do it. They're the ones with teeth and you have to smash them!

This kinda makes me think she's talking about the tiny logos. Subliminal messages contained within or something. 'The little ones in the corner that you almost don't see'.
Freaky.

Btw, hi all *waves*

I think she IS talking about the Blue Sun Logos when she says "the ones you almost don't see" because in the commentary for Serenity they say that the Blue Sun Logos are hidden/put in different scenes and the part where she says "they're the ones that take you!" I think she's talking about the Hands of Blue guys. So I think there is a definite link between the Alliance, the Blue Sun Corp and the Hands of Blue guys. Just my thoughts!

"Oh I'm going to the special hell."-Mal

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Saturday, July 17, 2004 8:06 PM

PURPLEBELLY

I'm thinking at the table
I'm reading every label

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Friday, August 6, 2004 9:32 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:
She is removing the Blue Sun logo from all the cans. The same reason she slashes Jayne's shirt, it has a Blue Sun logo on it.

Still flyin'...

Bad idea to wear your Blue Sun shirt while river is around

That is a great theory

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Friday, August 6, 2004 9:42 PM

THEREALME

Purplebelly! You are a poet!

Now you should keep it up until you write the lyrics for the new hit song "River Madness"! We could be rich!

(We, because you'd be morally obliged to share with me since it was my idea!)

The Real Me

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 4:23 PM

LADYDISDAIN

(Hi! I'm a horrible newbie, so please forgive any major breach of etiquette...)

I'm ready to buy the River going after the Blue Sun logo. But that brings up an interesting quandry: If she was in fact being trained by Blue Sun (via the Alliance, via the Blue Gloves), but has since developed a hatred and fear so intense that she will attack the logo itself...

Well... doesn't that make her the perfect psychic assassin for anyone looking to off some Blue Sun execs, or any number of the political strongboxes that Blue Sun has likely installed in various offices? So how long is it before someone recruits her based on this hatred?

Just a thought. I fiendishly enjoy playing devil's advocate and looking for loopholes...

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 4:42 PM

THEREALME

Welcome! It is always good to have new folks join us. We are very friendly here.

Etiquette? We really don't have any secret handhakes or anything like that. Simple politeness goes a long way.

And yes, you have an interesting idea that I never thought of, personally. In fact, I never noticed any Blue Sun connection until I read threads on this site.

But it has been suggested (somewhere on this site) that River was not made as an assassin BY the Blue Suns, but rather AGAINST the Blue Suns.

I'm not sure which way it goes, myself, but I'm waiting patiently to find out.

The Real Me

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Monday, December 6, 2004 7:25 PM

BADGERGIRL

Welcome, Ladydisdain! I'm a newbie too, so you're not the only one.

I do have something to mention on what you said.

Quote:
Well... doesn't that make her the perfect psychic assassin for anyone looking to off some Blue Sun execs, or any number of the political strongboxes that Blue Sun has likely installed in various offices? So how long is it before someone recruits her based on this hatred?

I think it'll be an interesting day when someone does find that out (and now that you pointed it out, it seems almost inevitable if the original theory's true). And it makes me wonder...Jubal Early wasn't working for anybody, right? A freelancer. Body hunter. Kind of like Boba Fett (not to be mistaken with Bobby Fett on the commentary)...wherever there's money, no matter which side it's on, you do the job. What if someone was paying Jubal to bring River to them for that very reason? Granted, it's a long shot, since he had the wanted poster, but that could've just been for information on them.

Gah, it's too late in the night to think this hard!

"Is there someone you are good at talking to?"

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Monday, December 6, 2004 7:39 PM

THEREALME

Welcome to you, too, Badgergirl!

It is my opinion that Early was independent.

The Real Me

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 4:29 PM

BADGERGIRL

Thanks!

Well, considering he's a body/bounty hunter, he's getting payed by someone, and he mentioned that a few times. But he never specifically said who.

__________________________________________
"Is there someone you are good at talking to?"

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 5:24 PM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by Badgergirl:
Well, considering he's a body/bounty hunter, he's getting payed by someone, and he mentioned that a few times. But he never specifically said who.

The impression that I had was that he was just looking to get the government's bounty - that he was working for himself, planning on turning River in to the goverment to collect the bounty.

But that was just my take...

Rabit

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 7:26 PM

ROCKETJOCK

There it is, there it is. It's
always there if you look for it.
Everybody sees and nobody sees it...

It almost sounds to me as if River is describing some kind of subliminal programming technique

Little ones in the corner that you almost don't see.

That could surely describe a laser-scan/UPC symbol. Who notices those things anymore?

What if all that Blue Sun imagery is sending little tiny cumulative messages? Nothing too complicated. "Obey Authority", "Conform", "Consume."

Hmm... Where's John Carpenter when you need him?

"I'm here to chew bubble gum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubble gum." -- Rowdy Roddy Piper, "They Live!"

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 9:27 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
Purplebelly! You are a poet!

Multiple apologies, TheRealMe. I've only just caught up with this thread, and I failed to attribute my quote to Don McLean. It's from Building My Body http://www.lyricsdownload.com/mclean-don-building-my-body-lyrics.html
I remember it from the first time-around

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