futuristic lesbianism by tomerai

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

futuristic lesbianism

POSTED BY: TOMERAI
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 08:05
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VIEWED: 8051
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Wednesday, August 4, 2004 8:40 AM

It could just be that, as Inara tells the Councilor, most of her clients are men, so it's not that they're negative, just surprised. (If anything, I'm surprised that the Councilor is surprised, because I expect that even in the future men will have more money and more interest in obtaining Companion services than women do.)

PS--maybe you ordered your Dead Guy on LJ, and your notification was delayed.

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Wednesday, August 4, 2004 8:56 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by tomerai:
is it odd that 500 years into the future sexual relationships between 2 women will get the same reactions from others like it does today?

refering to the reactions of Serenity's crew to Inara & the counsilor in "War Stories"

dong ma?

Well Joss doesn't see the future as the Utopian society that the Star Trek universe is...
He seems to think that the same ignorance that has always dogged man (for thousands of documented years) will continue to cause problems in the future...

and really, it wasn't like there was an actual problem or and prejudice...but kinky interest...

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Wednesday, August 4, 2004 9:05 AM

RADHIL

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
Well Joss doesn't see the future as the Utopian society that the Star Trek universe is...
He seems to think that the same ignorance that has always dogged man (for thousands of documented years) will continue to cause problems in the future...

and really, it wasn't like there was an actual problem or and prejudice...but kinky interest...

Cross that with Heart of Gold, where Mal is asked if he's "sly". The question is rather casual, as is the answer.

So the suprise seemed to be more for Inara, as it's not her usual gig. And yes, kinky interest.

The fact that there's Companions at all, that they're registered and respected and even a little awed, should be telling as to what attitudes are in place in Joss's future - at least as far as the Alliance is concerned. Hick-folk in the hills might think differently, much as they do on witches.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Wednesday, August 4, 2004 9:05 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by tomerai:
is it odd that 500 years into the future sexual relationships between 2 women will get the same reactions from others like it does today?

refering to the reactions of Serenity's crew to Inara & the counsilor in "War Stories"

dong ma?

Can't say I'd oppose futuristic lesbians. I say sex between two beautiful women is a beautiful thing. Any other homosexual relationship is morally wrong. Guess that makes me a moderate on the issue.

H

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Wednesday, August 4, 2004 9:23 AM

OUTSIDER

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
Well Joss doesn't see the future as the Utopian society that the Star Trek universe is...
He seems to think that the same ignorance that has always dogged man (for thousands of documented years) will continue to cause problems in the future...

But isn't it interesting that, even though Star Trek is meant to be the more idealistically perfect future society, it has yet to feature a significant homosexual relationship on any of its incarnations? Yet in Joss' much-less-than-perfect future society, it doesn't raise an eyebrow - except, as mentioned in another post, for "kinky interest"?

In fact, it didn't really raise any eyebrows when Joss put Willow and Tara together on Buffy. Well, not on the show anyway.

Although, to be fair, we never saw a long-term homosexual on Firefly. Actually, we didn't see a long-term relationship of any kind. Bloody FOX...

----------
"Today we were kidnapped by hill folk, never to be seen again. It was the best day ever."

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Wednesday, August 4, 2004 9:24 AM

PERIDIDDLE

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Can't say I'd oppose futuristic lesbians. I say sex between two beautiful women is a beautiful thing. Any other homosexual relationship is morally wrong. Guess that makes me a moderate on the issue.

H

....huh?

"Bwaa...it's kind of a warrior...strikes fear into the hearts of..."

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Wednesday, August 4, 2004 9:28 AM

RADHIL

Quote:
Originally posted by perididdle:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Can't say I'd oppose futuristic lesbians. I say sex between two beautiful women is a beautiful thing. Any other homosexual relationship is morally wrong. Guess that makes me a moderate on the issue.

H

....huh?

"Bwaa...it's kind of a warrior...strikes fear into the hearts of..."

He's a Fox executive.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Wednesday, August 4, 2004 4:05 PM

FIREFLEW

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by tomerai:
is it odd that 500 years into the future sexual relationships between 2 women will get the same reactions from others like it does today?

refering to the reactions of Serenity's crew to Inara & the counsilor in "War Stories"

dong ma?

Can't say I'd oppose futuristic lesbians. I say sex between two beautiful women is a beautiful thing. Any other homosexual relationship is morally wrong. Guess that makes me a moderate on the issue.

H

Can't say I agree with your last two sentances - they just don't make sense with their double standards.

The first two though, I can get behind. Especially if it were to be Companion + Mechanic...

Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

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Wednesday, August 4, 2004 7:30 PM

THEREALME

I THINK that Hero is being all ironical.

The Real Me

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 2:24 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
I THINK that Hero is being all ironical.

The Real Me

Yeah. Also I'm embracing my own hypocracy, that is a religeous conservative, like myself, who finds it ok for two attractive women to...well...be all

companionable with each other.

I have a similar "moderate" view on gun control. That is seeing attractive women keeping and bearing arms is ok too, even without a permit.

Now futuristic lesibians with guns...thats something I think we all could get behind.

H

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 3:05 AM

CAPTAINHARBATKIN

As Wierd Jeff said on COUPLING (the real BBC show, not the American abomination), when asked why men found lesbian sex so attractive:

"Lesbians are WONDERFUL. You get 4 breasts! Two guest breasts and two you can take home with you!"

Of course, actually, you get 4 breasts, NONE of which you can take home with you. Of course, speaking of porn as a purely VISUAL medium, which, for most of us it IS, we can' take any of it home anyway, so 4 is better than 2.

As for Inara and the councilor, there's no evidence that any thing particularly SEXUAL actually occurred. I mean, as far as what we see and hear of the event, it could have been a bit of massage, you know, and maybe a bit of chat.

Just like at the massage parlor in the ratty mobile home at the edge of town with all the semi-trucks parked behind it. These guys need back rubs...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
...they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their
clothing - and if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 10:02 AM

TJACK

Let's not over-think this folks, a thousand years ago, or five hundred years from now. Guys just like this stuff.

When faced with a moral question I ask myself; "What would The Lone Ranger do?"

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 3:21 PM

FIREFLEW

Quote:
Originally posted by Tjack:
Let's not over-think this folks

When faced with a moral question I ask myself; "What would The Lone Ranger do?"

I think this phrase could be uttered in almost EVERY discussion here

.

The point is, we've got - relatively speaking - little to work off for judging the Firefly Universe. Therefore, we've gotta overthink everything

.

Where else would people discuss discarded food labels from cans?

Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 5:52 PM

TRUTHSEEKER

Quote:
Originally posted by Tjack:
Let's not over-think this folks, a thousand years ago, or five hundred years from now. Guys just like this stuff.

So true! Tell a guy you're bisexual, and it's automatic: his eyes go glassy, and his blood heads south. He might make a valiant effort to continue a conversation with you, but mentally, he's 'in his bunk'.

With Inara and the counselor, none of the other crew are judgemental in any way, but they are surprised, tittilated, and aroused in varying degrees.

As for the idea that the only thing that happens in Inara's shuttle is a massage, can't agree with you there! The best massages start on the periphery, and work their way in... way in

And while we're on the subject,

Quote:
Especially if it were to be Companion + Mechanic...

Ooooooooh, yeah... Remember the hair brushing scene from the pilot? Mmmmmmmmmm...
I'll be in my bunk.

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 11:41 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Now futuristic lesibians with guns...thats something I think we all could get behind.
H

That was very righteous, brother.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Little Feat, "All That You Dream", from "Waiting for Columbus"

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 11:50 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by truthseeker:
So true! Tell a guy you're bisexual, and it's automatic: his eyes go glassy, and his blood heads south. He might make a valiant effort to continue a conversation with you, but mentally, he's 'in his bunk'.

So untrue.
If he's heterosexual, and you're a guy:

Eyes glassy - check
Blood heads south - leaves his head so, check
Valiant effort to continue conversation - check
Mentally - How can I work "scuse me" into the conversation?

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Little Feat, "Oh Atlanta", from "Waiting for Columbus"

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Friday, August 6, 2004 6:47 AM

CLEANER

I don't think Jayne had any negative thoughts about it at all

"If wishes were horses we'd all be eating steak!!!"

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Friday, August 6, 2004 9:37 AM

SHINYSEVEN

The first time I saw "Serenity," I was definitely thinking about Kaylee/Inara too--but to be fair, when Mal says "So you're servicing crew now?" Inara says "Only in your sick mind."

Unless, of course, Inara means that she isn't "servicing" Kaylee as a client, they're having a relationship.

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Friday, August 6, 2004 11:24 AM

STATIC

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainHarbatkin:

As for Inara and the councilor, there's no evidence that any thing particularly SEXUAL actually occurred.

Except maybe for the KISS and the Counselor UNTYING INARA'S TOP!!!!!

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Friday, August 6, 2004 3:18 PM

CAPTAINHARBATKIN

Quote:
Originally posted by Static:
Except maybe for the KISS and the Counselor UNTYING INARA'S TOP!!!!!

My mom kissed me all the time, and I don't recall having sex with her. And she took off my clothes, massaged me, all sorts of things - and yet, STILL no sex... What do you suppose that MEANS!!!!!

And we won't point out that the comment about the massage parlor in the sleazy trailer at the edge of town with all the trucks JUST MIGHT have been a hint that I doubted the likelihood of this being purely a backrub situation.

But STILL, we got no proof, we didn't see ANYTHING to testify to in court.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
...they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their
clothing - and if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Friday, August 6, 2004 3:58 PM

THEREALME

Truthseeker, welcome to the site!

But sorry, I have to disagree. Speaking as a heterosexual male, I count "bisexual" as a minus in a prospective female. Not from any moral or religious point of view, mind you, but just...

Damn! Now I've got twice the competition!

The Real Me

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Friday, August 6, 2004 4:11 PM

LTNOWIS

I don't think it's at all crazy for people to be more uptight about lesbians in the future. The amount of social liberalism in a culture waxes and wanes. A few decades ago, abortions were much more common than they are today. Likewise, the Greeks were a lot more promiscouis 2,000 years ago than they are now. In Firefly, they're more tolerant of some things, like prostitution, and less tolerant of other things, like witchcraft.

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Friday, August 6, 2004 8:00 PM

TRUTHSEEKER

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
Truthseeker, welcome to the site!

Why, thank you.

Quote:
But sorry, I have to disagree. Speaking as a heterosexual male, I count "bisexual" as a minus in a prospective female. Not from any moral or religious point of view, mind you, but just...

Damn! Now I've got twice the competition!

The Real Me

Interesting. Of course, I was drawing a conclusion based purely on my own experience. It's nice to know there a guys who aren't so predictable.

And, to clarify:

Quote:
Originally posted by shinyseven:
The first time I saw "Serenity," I was definitely thinking about Kaylee/Inara too--but to be fair, when Mal says "So you're servicing crew now?" Inara says "Only in your sick mind."

Unless, of course, Inara means that she isn't "servicing" Kaylee as a client, they're having a relationship.

Oh, I don't think that scene is hinting at anything more than friendship between Inara and Kaylee. I do think it's a clever way of establishing several character points at once: Inara's role as nurturer, Kaylee's wistful appreciation of Inara's glamorous lifestyle, the warmth of their friendship transcending their different backgrounds, and Mal's attempts to cover his interest in Inara with gruff captainess and jokes.

At the same time, I will defend to the death my right to fantasize about alternate endings to that scene and others, whether or not they be supported by the Firefly canon.

And on a more serious note,

Quote:
Originally posted by LtNOWIS:
I don't think it's at all crazy for people to be more uptight about lesbians in the future. The amount of social liberalism in a culture waxes and wanes. A few decades ago, abortions were much more common than they are today. Likewise, the Greeks were a lot more promiscouis 2,000 years ago than they are now. In Firefly, they're more tolerant of some things, like prostitution, and less tolerant of other things, like witchcraft.

Interesting point about accepted norms changing over time. Another aspect of the FF 'verse is the melding of eastern and western cultures which have at various times in history had vastly different attitudes towards sex in general, and homosexuality in particular.
On the other hand, I think many of the settlement planets that Serenity visits, especially the one in "Safe" that you refer to, are populated by the kind of zealots who like to take off for the frontier (or built fortified compounds) to escape the "moral/spiritual/inset-adjective-here decay" of the larger society so that they can have the freedom to repress and persecute their own people without interference. As such, each of them might well be enclaves for any of the prejudices, bigotry, and general sliminess which human beings are prey to, but wouldn't be representative of the 'verse at large.
Our favorite crew, on the other hand, as an eclectic group with various backgrounds, beliefs, etc., seem to me to be a more likely representative of 'versal attitudes. No one on the ship displays any reactions which I would call 'uptight' to Inara's female client.
As your tag line says, "Unite all the planets so everyone can be interfered with or ignored equally." I get the feeling that as far as the Alliance is concerned, you can do whatever you want in bed as long as you pay your taxes, and as far as the Independents are concerned, when your ideological goal is to "never have to be under the heel of nobody ever again," it doesn't make sense to live in a closet, or expect anyone else to. Not that people always make sense in their attitudes, mind you, but our crew at least seem pretty open minded about accepting people as they are. Besides, living in such close quarters, it'd be pretty had to hide who you really were for long.

Except if you're Book.

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Friday, August 6, 2004 9:08 PM

AROUNDBROWNCOAT

Ha ha ha, this site is really that great. We can talk in all seriousness but still be humorous and witty on the very touchiest of subjects in our present society. Firefly fans are the best.

Enough of my sucking up though...

I won't add anything of an opinion but just an observation and thought. Don't some of the BDH's check out this site and actually post here? ^_^

I'm sure the lovely Jewel Staite and Morena Baccarin would sure get a kick out of the "companion + mechanic" comment, ha ha ha ha.

Don't worry, it's definitely all in fun.

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Friday, August 6, 2004 9:14 PM

THEREALME

Quote:
Originally posted by truthseeker:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
Truthseeker, welcome to the site!

Why, thank you.

Oooo! A kiss! Thanks.

* The Real Me gingerly takes the kiss and places it in a shoe box next to another one. *

I'm collecting these.

The Real Me

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Friday, August 6, 2004 9:38 PM

THEREALME

Hello, aRoundBrowncoat!

Goodness! Lots of new folks lately. Good sign of things to come.

Yes, this is a terrific site, for which we should thank Haken.

Jewel has posted here a few times and it is said that Jewel's mother was a regular at one time.

I don't know of any other BDHs to post here, though Adam was big on the OB (Old, or "official" Board). I think Nathan was as well.

The Real Me

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Saturday, August 7, 2004 11:53 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainHarbatkin:
My mom kissed me all the time, and I don't recall having sex with her. And she took off my clothes, massaged me, all sorts of things - and yet, STILL no sex... What do you suppose that MEANS!!!!!

She's the Queen of Diamonds?

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Widespread Panic, "Climb to Safety", from "Til the Medicine Takes"

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Monday, August 23, 2004 1:50 PM

REVEAL

Quote:
Originally posted by YT:

She's the Queen of Diamonds?

Any Manchurian Candidate reference deserves a

.

As regards the ostensible topic of this thread, I don't think we should be so quick to assume that temporal progress is the same as social progress. Consider the fate of the Islamic Caliphate after the 10th century, the West after the sack of Rome, the Balkans after the fall of Communism, or Africa after colonialism (obligatory nod to social dislocations caused by colonialism in the first place). For that matter, consider the remarkable rightward shift in American economic and political opinion since the 1930s.

Likewise, China and India have some of the oldest sophisticated cultures on earth, but the social attitudes have scarcely changed for millenia. There's no reason to see these as "retrogression" or "stagnation" (unless you're a Hegelian, or neoconservative), but they are simply a reflection of the fact that there are a great many possible cultural configurations.

In the case of Firefly, we're looking at a culture that seems to be equal parts Chinese Imperial sophistication and American Western Expansion ruggedness. There's nothing within either culture that necessarily lends itself to recognition of inalienable human rights. (Case in point: The Independents continually talk about the right to be free from the Alliance, but there's certainly a high incidence of slavery on those frontier worlds. Freedom ain't always what it's cracked up to be.)

In the script, I certainly have the impression that the politician who frequents Inara considers her sexuality to be a political minus. Given that the company of the "ambassador" is something men of stature openly compete for, this suggests to me that lesbianism if not homosexuality in general is considered somewhat questionable or perhaps shameful. (The attitudes in a low-class brothel probably shouldn't be taken as representative of the culture at large.)

So, I'd say that Joss simply shows us that prejudice and intolerance, like the poor, are with us always.

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Monday, August 23, 2004 2:47 PM

THEGREYJEDI

Quote:
Originally posted by Reveal:

So, I'd say that Joss simply shows us that prejudice and intolerance, like the poor, are with us always.

Damn those poor.

Anyway, to the man who kisses his mother, I hope you don't kiss your mother like Inara and the Councilor were kissing. Or vice versa. And this wasn't a mother and a child, this was two beautiful adult women. See, there's nothing wrong with passionate kissing while undressing between adult women of non-relation. Whereas you take a mother and child and throw in passionate kissing and undressing, well, "That's downright unsettling."

--------------------------------------------------
http://tomeofgrey.blogspot.com/

Coming Soon: JedSoft!

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Monday, August 23, 2004 3:28 PM

WITLESSCHUM

I read the shooting script, too, and the scene where Inara goes the councilor's home was embarassing, I thought, because it had the potential of her husband finding out she was paying for a bit of Companionship on the side. Not worried about her voters, if she has any.

Dan

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Monday, September 13, 2004 11:46 AM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by Reveal:
Quote:
Originally posted by YT:

She's the Queen of Diamonds?

Any Manchurian Candidate reference deserves a .

Actually it was from lecture notes in the margin of a nineteenth century math text once owned by some guy named Chuck Do-do-dogson.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Fool for the City

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Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:26 PM

EBONEZER

Quote:
Originally posted by truthseeker:

So true! Tell a guy you're bisexual, and it's automatic: his eyes go glassy, and his blood heads south. He might make a valiant effort to continue a conversation with you, but mentally, he's 'in his bunk'.

Yeah, guys are always good for a laugh. I've actually had a guy ask me, in all seriousness, "So, could I ask you AND your girlfriend to homecomming then?"

-----------------------------------

Four out of five dentists reccomend calling Ebo a girl.

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 5:18 PM

DANFAN

YT,

Little Feat? Foghat? I'm liking your play list.

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 10:56 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by danfan:

Little Feat? Foghat? I'm liking your play list.

Little Feat is perhaps my favorite band; their tunes may have been from my own vinyl or CDs. I don't own any Foghat so, they must have been on Radio@AOL, either Jam Bands or Southern Rock (bit of a cross-over).

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Leftover Salmon, "Weary Traveler", eponymous

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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 8:05 AM

UNCHARTEDOUTLAW

Honestly, I don't think their reaction is strange at all. They've been in space for a while with little release. Heck, even Kaylee notes the boy prostitutes in "Heart of Gold".

-Taylor

Uncharted Outlaw!

Haulin' goods from one end of creation to th' other. Keepin' my nose clean 'round the Alliance. Rockin' the "Riviera" (67-K62) hardcore!

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