confusing beginning in 'Serenity'? by Jerry111

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

confusing beginning in 'Serenity'?

POSTED BY: JERRY111
UPDATED: Thursday, January 6, 2005 05:44
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 12159
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Friday, May 7, 2004 12:44 PM

Was anyone else a little startled by the beginning of "Serenity" when watching it for the first time? By mean, I say how it started out with a bang. It kind of made me think that I started out in the middle of the episode.

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Monday, May 31, 2004 4:44 AM

FORRESTWOLF

Actually, as I've been introducing people to Firefly the past couple of weeks, I've noticed that the opening scene (the "Fox" one, with the battle) is pretty darned confusing for people in general. I guess it's meant to be, but one alternative Joss could have done would be a flashback to the battle later in the episode. I think many writers prefer chronological order, because flashbacks can get rather stale, but in this case, I wonder if the history and the jump to the show was just too much to grasp.

Anyone else? I just tried Train Job instead as a first ep for a new viewer, and it didn't seem any less confusing :)

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Monday, May 31, 2004 5:07 AM

ANDAGAINMA

I agree that the battle scene was not the best start to our voyage on Firefly. The salvage, interrupted by the Alliance vessel, might have worked better, since it shows what Mal and co do for a living. While I don't find the battle scene confusing, it suggests war story, rather than SF or western.
Andrew

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Monday, May 31, 2004 5:07 AM

EST120

Quote:

Anyone else? I just tried Train Job instead as a first ep for a new viewer, and it didn't seem any less confusing :)

i think that the beginning of "serenity" is confusing as well though i feel it still must be the first episode that a new viewer watches. i think it is kind of hard to link mal's distaste for the alliance later in the episode. also, it is a harder with the battle scene to understand about mal's lack of faith. i think the alternate scene was better at conveying that aspect of his personality.

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Friday, July 9, 2004 9:38 AM

EXAMPLE

I fail to see what's so confusing about the battle scene?

Is it the fact that there is a time jump; or what's going on? Because if you pay close attention you can tell what is going on via dialogue from Mal, Zoe, and the private.

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Friday, July 9, 2004 10:59 AM

PURPLEBELLY

No, but I am European

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Friday, July 9, 2004 11:42 AM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Quote:
Originally posted by andagainma:
I agree that the battle scene was not the best start to our voyage on Firefly. The salvage, interrupted by the Alliance vessel, might have worked better, since it shows what Mal and co do for a living. While I don't find the battle scene confusing, it suggests war story, rather than SF or western.
Andrew

Moving the battle to a flashback later in the episode would rend the line "Right We Win" useless at the end of the salvage seen in Serenity. It would totally go over peoples heads as a sign of the tortured soul that Mal has become since the war.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

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Friday, July 9, 2004 11:43 AM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Quote:
Originally posted by est120:
Quote:

Anyone else? I just tried Train Job instead as a first ep for a new viewer, and it didn't seem any less confusing :)

i think that the beginning of "serenity" is confusing as well though i feel it still must be the first episode that a new viewer watches. i think it is kind of hard to link mal's distaste for the alliance later in the episode. also, it is a harder with the battle scene to understand about mal's lack of faith. i think the alternate scene was better at conveying that aspect of his personality.

Hmm.. lets see... During the war he kisses the cross hanging around his neck

after the war, he doesn't want people praying out loud at his dinner table....

how is that so very confusing?

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

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Friday, July 9, 2004 1:04 PM

WULFHAWK

If that's confusing, browncoat, you maybe better take a friend with you to the movie, to kinda explain how it is that Mal is a rougher, more bitter character, and Serenity is a little slicker, and...

Well, maybe ya better see it twice. Or more.

Take my love
Take my land

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Friday, July 9, 2004 3:43 PM

PROFESSOR

I'm finding it hard to understand the confusing part. Expecially the lack of understanding in the change of the captain. My opinion is that the opening scene had to be first. Joss' intension for the show was that these were the people that history is going to forget. Why? Because Mal doesn't care, his war is lost. There's a dramatic shift in his character and the only way to understand that is to see who he was before the shift, or in this case it was done during the shift.

As someone mentioned he went from kissing the cross to not allowing prayer at the dinner table. Understood, the cross is subtle, I didn't catch it the first time; however the bit about the captain telling the private that God wouldn't allow them to die because they're too pretty, not so subtle. As far as jumping into the middle of the battle (actually end of the battle) this isn't a war flick, it's not about how the war started how the battle started, where else is the scene supposed to start except right where it explains what it needs to? Mal was almost as optimistic as Kaylee until the instruction to lay down arms and watch as help flew away.

To get over the confusion all that was needed was to wait the two minutes for the story writing to catch you up. I thought the 6 years later bit did a good job with that.

I personally loved how Firefly started, my problem was with Train Job playing the "River is Simon's sister" "Kaylee is the mechanic" "Wash and Zoe are married" card because Fox was too stupid to put the introduction to the series on first.

- Professor's fiance

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Friday, July 9, 2004 4:17 PM

FIGHTON4GOD

I actually had to have my cousin explain it to me afterwards. It makes much more sense if you watch the deleted scene where Zoe explains it to Simon. She showed that scene to me, and I got it then.

Keep Flyin'!

Pazuzu

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Saturday, July 10, 2004 5:14 AM

JUMPY

Yeh I was definitely somewhat startled. I think it kinda put me on a bad footing, I only really began to throughly enjoy Firefly after the second episode. When I went back to the first one I enjoyed it though.

Anywayz yeh it was a little confusing at the start.

__________________________
There's no show I'd rather see, than the one with Serenity.
You can't take the sky from me...

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Saturday, July 10, 2004 8:40 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry111:
... how it started out with a bang. It kind of made me think that I started out in the middle of the episode.

If you're referring to the Battle of Serenity start to Serenity I think you'll find that pitching right into the middle of some action was a response to a Network Note; there are references to the Network's reservations about the pilot on the DVD extras. The unaired pilot started with the salvage job after a voice-over about the war. Whedon has said that he is happy with the rewrite, tho. Personally, I like the final version, although cutting a scene with Gina Torres is not something I could normally condone

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Monday, July 12, 2004 5:54 AM

JUSTANOTHERMUDDER

I liked the beginning with the battle scene. It goes a long way to explain the relationship between Zoe and Mal too, as well as why he is the way he is.
When introducing the show to new viewers, don't try to explain it; just tell them to have faith in the story teller and that all will make sense eventually. You can't explain an entire story in the first few minutes... what would be the point of the rest of the episodes then? ;) This is a show for savoring! :)

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 10:56 AM

MER

Truthfully, I felt bored while watching "Train Job". I couldn't understand certain things, but I trusted in Joss that everything isn't what they may seem and I'd end up liking it.
Plus I think I started to get interested just before "Jaynestown" or around "Ariel." with that, I conclude, "Out of Gas" (didn't see the ending) to be the one thing that got me to get the DVD ASAP.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:27 PM

ELVIS

Didn't seem at all confusing to me. You learn quite a bit about Mal in that short scene.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 1:14 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

I'm not sure that the beginning of Serenity was the product of a network note. They (Fox) got the finished product (is my understanding) and didn't like it, so they had Joss come up with the Train Job and aired that as the pilot. And, if I'm not mistaken, in an interview where Nathan Fillion was asked to give word association and was given the phrase "Network Notes", he said "Suprisingly Few". Which is not to say that he would necessarily know if they did get them, bt he wasn't aware of a whole lot. Interviews and panel discussion with the angelic Jewel Staite seem to bear this up. Fox didn't know what they had, and didn't understand it. The point is, I think that the Battle of Serenity Valley at the beginning of Serenity was pure Joss Whedon, and was probably meant to be a little confusing.

Then again, what do I know...I was forced to come to Korea for a year.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 3:08 PM

CLEANER

I started watching FF b4 it went to air with the unaired pilot. It didn't start with the battle scene but instead the first scene them was pulling salvage off the derilect ship.

It was a far more tasteful start but when the aired pilot was played later the battle scene gave new depth to Mal's character. In particular that he was a religeous person that had lost his faith after the battle of Serenity.

Was this Fox's doing??????

Its all good.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 3:44 PM

Well, I didn't know about any voice-over. I do know that there was a different beginning to 'Serenity' (anyone with the DVDs knows that, it's right there in the deleted scenes after all). The Battle of Serenity beginning was indeed a Network Note. They wanted more action. I believe Joss mentions that in the commentary for 'Serenity'.

And I think it's an excellent beginning. I wasn't confused once; it's very well laid out. Without being explicit, it's clearly said that the Alliance are the bad guys to us, and we want to kick their arse. But we lost. In just a few minutes, you get to see how Mal was stripped down to a shell of a man, as opposed to someone telling you about it later. Which is never as effective.

I'm of the opinion that 'Serenity' was the best episode of the series, the best episode. So don't diss ;)

I've just realised that when the film comes out, we're going to need a way to differentiate between episode and film. Any preemptive thoughts?

JK

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:56 PM

RICKKER

pilot episode and movie. Just a guess. I thought the action from the battle of serenity and the changes Mal goes through were easy enough to follow. I would have liked both the deleted scenes to have been in the pilot. Especially Zoe's little chat with Simon after he looks up Serenity on his nifty encyclopedia

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 1:02 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

Is it just me, or does Simon's encyclopedia remind you of that book Penny used to carry around on Inspector Gadget? Weird.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Friday, July 16, 2004 8:32 PM

SINGULARITY

To me the pilot is/was/will be a fine way to start anything. It gives action, it gives background, it sets the tone of the setting, and it intros our Captain Tightpants. I found it compelling, fun, tastefull, and love it so much I think I burned a extra line in the DVD. But I see how some people can be lead to it being confusing. I showed my mother this episode and she just didnt get it. She said that the pauses in the show where distracting.....I didnt have the heart to say "insert commercial here". Sometimes I think that a show like Firefly works a little like the movie The Usual Suspects. You can watch it once and see something one way...then you watch it again and see something else. That's one of my favorite things about this show....its always interesting and entertaining to me and those I call my friends.

And to the question of what to call Serenity the pilot and Serenity the movie.....Serenity stays the pilot title....The movie will always be BDM....thought that be a simple one....

Nothing can escape the event horizon. Light, matter, and especially Twinkies.

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Saturday, July 17, 2004 5:31 AM

THELION

When I am trying to get others hooked on Firefly, I really try to avoid Serenity. Some of the people I show it to will think "Oh, it's a war show" and then stop watching completely. Serenity isn't really the episode one can enjoy until after they watch a few more episodes, and you understand more about everything that's going on. Even though I have to say Serenity was the episode that got me hooked on the series, right when I saw

Select to view spoiler:

the scene where Kaylee "died".

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Sunday, July 18, 2004 5:21 AM

TALLGRRL

Quote:
Originally posted by example:
I fail to see what's so confusing about the battle scene?

Is it the fact that there is a time jump; or what's going on? Because if you pay close attention you can tell what is going on via dialogue from Mal, Zoe, and the private.

I watched the beginning and wasn't the least bit confused...because I kept watching and listening.
It was all pretty obvious to me.
And once the battle was over and we cut to the next scene, well it DID say "5 years later".
Confusion?
Not in the least.
It's too bad the weasles at Fox didn't have the sense to air the pilot first. (And all other episodes in proper order as well.)
Sure made their ad campaign for the show not quite work.
"A girl in a box!"
Um...didn't see no boxed girl in "Train Job".
What the hell were they even thinking?
Doesn't matter. Universal is bringing us the BDM and I'm sure glad.

"Take me, sir. Take me hard."

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Wednesday, August 11, 2004 6:45 AM

ARNIEVG

Ok, I am one of those people who was very confused with the opening scene, but I have also read all of these posts and can see other peoples opinions. I think it was confusing for me because I was expecting Sci-Fi and it opened with a war. It also made me feel like I had missed some of the beginning the way that it opened. I can however see that there are some things that would be misunderstood if that scene were shown later in the show such as Mal's distaste for the Alliance and his issue with religion. I found watching it all the way through, confused a bit and all, and then going back to watch that first scene again helped me to understand what I had just watched. The show just got better with every episode after that.

Annie

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Tuesday, August 17, 2004 10:56 AM

DBLADE

I thought the beginning of Serenity was an excellent way to start the series. It had action, it had heart, and you see the start of Mal's sad transition from optimistic Browncoat with a just cause into the cynical opportunistic captain of the present. The scene where he watches in despair as the Alliance ships rain destruction down on the valley is very powerful and very telling of his loss. I felt if there was any underlying theme to the show it was Mal's journey to recapture that spark he had lost in Serenity Valley. Perhaps he never would succeed but as long as he kept flying there was always the possibility. For this reason I can't imagine starting the pilot episode any other way. It sets the theme of the whole story of Mal and Serenity.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2004 4:22 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Agreed DBlade.

I think Joss's use of the Battle of Serenity Valley was very fitting. It gives us a glance into Mal's past, partially explaining why he & Zoe are together, her loyalty to him, Mal's feelings toward the Alliance, his deep seated desire to be free, and his dedication to his crew/family. It also gives us some insight into the choice of names for the ship.

It had to start out near the end of the battle, because to show the entire battle or anything further back in the war would take several episodes on its own and would most likely start losing viewers. It was merely used to set the stage for the series and give us some insight into the principal character.

The action sequence insures that viewers tuning in will have their attention grabbed and held onto long enough to get to the story itself. I thought it was masterfully done by Joss. Too bad go se Fox did not have the imagination to see that themselves.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Wednesday, August 18, 2004 6:22 AM

RHYMEPHILE

One of the things I wish we could have gotten more of was backstory into the war. We gets bits of it in the opening to "Serenity" and "War Stories," but I for one always wanted to hear more about how the war essentially reshaped and broke Mal. And I always wanted to know more about his history and comraderie with Zoe, and why they are so dedicated to each other aside from him being her superior. In fact, I would have loved a complete flashback episode just on the war.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

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Sunday, August 22, 2004 10:34 AM

MOJOMAN360

^when Mal lost the war he changed, not during the war.

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Sunday, August 22, 2004 11:33 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Forrestwolf:
I guess it's meant to be, but one alternative Joss could have done would be a flashback to the battle later in the episode. I think many writers prefer chronological order, because flashbacks can get rather stale, but in this case, I wonder if the history and the jump to the show was just too much to grasp.

Point of fact, this wasn't a flashback really as we start in the past then move to the future - unlike Out of Gas or Safe for example.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, August 22, 2004 12:03 PM

OUTSIDER

One thing that's bothered me (and that I've always been kinda embarrassed to ask) is: what are those ships at the end of the Battle of Serenity scene? Are those Alliance ships moving in? Or Independent ships moving out?

Incidentally, I feel the two deleted scenes on the DVD might have made better inclusions than the scene that eventually started the episode. It sets the tone more aptly than an all-out war scene - because Firefly wasn't a war show.

------------------------

"Shouldn't you be off bringing religiosity to the fuzzy-wuzzies or some such?"

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Sunday, August 22, 2004 12:26 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider:
Incidentally, I feel the two deleted scenes on the DVD might have made better inclusions than the scene that eventually started the episode. It sets the tone more aptly than an all-out war scene - because Firefly wasn't a war show.

Was Alliance ships landing.

I think Firefly was a war show, it was just about the aftermath, which is always longer than the duration (to paraphrase JMS a little) - I have to say I think this was one of the studio notes that may have been a good one. Start with action, define the characters through action and then fill in the rest.

Not all studio notes are bad - let's remember that they restarted Angel back in season one after Joss and Co delivered something different than the pitched show, and those notes seem to haev done some good.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, August 22, 2004 1:55 PM

RIVERGIRL

because Firefly wasn't a war show.

------------------------

maybe not a war show per say but I'd say its the aftermath of a war--there still seems to be some hard feelings about which side you fought for etc
suppose it become sci fi because they are on a space ship and visit different worlds--a western because there are horses and they wear holsters

Also, I can kill you with my brain.

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 9:05 AM

PHOEBE

Quote:
Originally posted by Forrestwolf:
Actually, as I've been introducing people to Firefly the past couple of weeks, I've noticed that the opening scene (the "Fox" one, with the battle) is pretty darned confusing for people in general. I guess it's meant to be, but one alternative Joss could have done would be a flashback to the battle later in the episode. I think many writers prefer chronological order, because flashbacks can get rather stale, but in this case, I wonder if the history and the jump to the show was just too much to grasp.

Anyone else? I just tried Train Job instead as a first ep for a new viewer, and it didn't seem any less confusing :)

Can I ask why it was confusing?

I started off with my first episode as Serenity and I wasn't confused in the slightest... I don't mean this to sound condescending or anything, but just out of plain curiosity, what particularly was confusing?

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 9:21 AM

FORRESTWOLF

Good question, really. I was referring to someone ELSE who I convinced to watch it - not me :) For some reason, when the show went from battle to oh-so-cool (blows me away everytime) silence in space, they just didn't buy the transition. Sigh.

The key here, of course, is that when "general audiences" (whoever that is) watch the MOVIE, they'll GET IT. I'm sure Joss has made that the case. Trust in the Joss.

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 3:56 PM

SHEALYNN88

I blame Fox for my COMPLETE disinterest in the show. I watched "Out of Gas" and the very last episode (still one of my least favorites) when they were aired and was very confused and hardly interested. This is a show that really needs to be seen in order. The characters build so thoroughly from episode to episode that to show them out of order is sabotage, as far as I'm concerned. I basically got the DVD's by accident: my hubby bought them for me for Christmas because I'm a huge fan of Joss. Little did I know until I started at the BEGINNING what an utterly amazing show it was. I think "Serenity" was perfect. When I start a show, I give it at least a FULL episode, usually two or three before I decide whether or not to watch it. It takes time for people to find their characters, for writers to get their groove and for the characters to develop enough to be truly interesting. At least, that's the way it is for most shows. Firefly, when seen IN ORDER, captured me almost immediately... certainly by the end of the first episode. Fox would have done a lot better if they had chosen to trust Joss rather than assuming that their viewers have the intelligence of rocks and need to be lead by the hand. If nothing else, Joss' reputation would have (and did, actually) drawn viewers and encouraged people to give the show a chance. Instead, they killed it from the beginning for everyone who wasn't a very patient fan, by showing the episodes completely out of order.

Shealynn

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 7:47 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Taken in the context of the show's broadcast date, i.e., at the tail end of the series, no, I don't find the broadcast opening particularly confusing. It's certainly less depressing than the original opening (on the DVD deleted scenes), and for those of us who were already familiar with Mal's attitude towards religion, it was certainly eye opening.

"Hermanos! The Devil has built a robot! Andale!" -- Numero Cinco

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Wednesday, December 8, 2004 1:31 AM

IAMZOE

I agree that Firefly is all about war… but a different take than normal maybe, dealing with the aftermath… The first couple episodes really hurt to watch – you had to adjust to a whole new story, plus there was so much noise and confusion… also, occasionally I find the casts accents hard to adjust to. They speak very fast and you don’t want to miss any dialogue.
Although, having said that, I have just been re-watching Buffy (season 4) and Angel (season1) and I had forgotten just how scary they are – while I was watching Firefly I kept thinking it was much darker, but I’ve changed my mind again.
I watched all of Firefly on DVD by the way – just wondering, how many ads per episode in the US? Used to drive me crazy watching Buffy on North American TV, and it really made me appreciate the BBC (no commercials during programmes).

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Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:15 PM

BOOKSWORD

I didnt find the begining in Serenity that confusing. I really liked it, we got bits and peices from it.

1- We where in a middle of a battle
2-There was a leader ( Mal) rallying troops, improv on the spot ( taking the LT code) and shooting down the plane that was killing them.
3-He belived in the war, in their ablity to win.
4- He belived in god, kissing the cross
5-He was expecting aerial support ( Angels) and when he heard the sound he thought it was them.
6- He found out that there was no air support and he was ordered to LAY DOWN ARMS.
7- The look on his face was crushing when him and his where bombed by the other side aerial support
8- Two mentions of Alliance ( they said they would walk through) so we know who they where fighting and when we see them hiding from them we know that they run things.
9- After Jayne says we win and Mal walks away the bitterness just steams off him. So we see the hopefull, brave leader is gone. We get to see him not broken but changed.
10- He has a major problem with god. His realtionship with Book and how he tried to embarras him with Inara and refused to join in prayer.

Then again this means nothing. Differnet people see things differently, depending. I once went to a movie with my girl and got lost at the end. Still lost, no matter how MANY times she tried to explain it to me.

Perecption I guess varies.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:51 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

I sold Firefly with Serenity without a problem, in fact by the time Inara was piloting her shuttle, they turned to me and asked how the hell this show got cancelled.

The first few minutes of Serenity are a textbook introduction to the characters - action piece to suck you in that also tells you a heck of a lot about Mal, then a great little heist moment "cry baby cry" then the music kicks in as the Firefly burns away.

You couldn't write a better pilot; so clearly Fox had to bury it...

"I threw up on your bed"

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Thursday, January 6, 2005 5:44 AM

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

Serenity is a hell of a lot better of a pilot than The Train Job.

I watched Serenity, and I was like "damn, this rocks." Immediately after I watched The Train Job and I couldn't help but think "HOW could they have used this as a pilot episode?"

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe

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