Downloading eps, Right or Wrong? by HotForKaylee

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Downloading eps, Right or Wrong?

POSTED BY: HOTFORKAYLEE
UPDATED: Friday, February 28, 2003 17:01
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VIEWED: 8093
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Monday, December 9, 2002 4:13 PM

Quote:
originally posted by IDEFIX

and to say something about illegal copies and that stuff. if there will be DVDs someday I'll be the first to buy them (from the US or here in Europe).

I only have Safe-War Stories on tape. I originally watched the show because of a local paper article the day of Train Job that described the show and said it was fairly good. I knew I would be home and being as I haven't really watched much Friday night t.v. there were no conflicts. I wasn't blown away really until the end when Mal kicks the guy into the engine. I fugured this would be a Friday night thing not knowing it would come to take up alot of free time message boarding and rewatching.

I didn't even know about a pilot or anything until I found this board. I had to have it. Luckily I have an excellent system I just built and have cable modem. I always watch on my computer too becuase, frankly, it blows away my t.v. system.

If a DVD came out I would snap it up as soon as it came out. I have downloaded all the eps and like I said have been recording them also.

But is this wrong? I collect arcade machines and if I own the board I'm legally entitled to have the rom image stored on my computer. What about the shows I taped off of broadcast t.v.? Youre also allowed to back up music that you own on to your computer.

I can understand the problems with new music and movies that are in theaters even though I know "people" who have done that in the past. What about a show on broadcast t.v. that anyone with a set and rabbit ears can get? What about the fact that without repeats being set to reair because of hiatus or the fact that if someone takes the time to download they will be watching when it originally airs if possible. I guess one problem is no ads on downloaded versions but like I said if you go through the trouble you'll most likely watch any new eps when aired.

Maybe they are scared if they do come out on DVD and someone downloaded an ep they didn't care for in the past they wouldn't even think of buying.

Laws can be very confusing on these issues. What do you think? Even if you haven't downloaded maybe because a dial-up or something else hinders your ability to do so would you if you had the resources?

Do you think this is wrong or illegal?

Quote:
"I don't watch TV. It's a cultural wasteland filled with inappropriate metaphors and an unrealistic portrayal of life created by the liberal media elite."

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Monday, December 9, 2002 7:16 PM

LJSQUARED

The way I understand it D/Ling of episodes is not legal, whether it's criminal or not, I don't know and of course this is all relative to where you are ( I live in Australia, although I think the laws are fairly similiar). But, and its a big but, It IS legal to obtain a copy of an episode, that you already own, as a backup. This is the loop hole, and stops the guys who serve episodes from getting busted.

Essentially d/ling an episode of the net is no different from pressing the record button on your vcr, which is also technically NOT LEGAL. You end up with the same thing, a copy of an episode that you did not pay for = piracy to lesser degree.

So No it's not technically legal but I wouldn't say it's morally wrong either. I would never have heard of Firefly if it weren't for the Net and think that would be a far more "wrong" set of circumstances.

Firefly@Trekvideo.com
http://www.trekvideo.com/firefly

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Monday, December 9, 2002 8:17 PM

GUILLERMO

I think it depends on your perspective. If you are a television executive, you would probably think its wrong because commercials, which pay the tv studios, will not be seen by us. Then, its a problem for the people like Joss, because if the studios don't get paid, then he won't get enough money for production of the show.

However, as a consumer, I think the downloading episodes is great. I can watch the show any time and anywhere I want on my laptop and watch my favorite episodes over and over again. And since my laptop basically goes _everywhere_ with me, I'll be watching episodes in the library, office, or a relative's house and people ask what I'm watching and they end up watching the episode with me. So it's a terrific way for me to get people to watch the show on Fridays, which I do of course.

However, just like buying songs over the Internet, I don't think I would pay for a service for me to download episodes. Why? I could watch it on a television broadcast and tape it with a vcr then, much like I could tape a song over the radio. I would most likely pay to own a dvd set of the season, much like I would pay to own an artist's cd, as long as the prices on the items are reasonably priced. I could go on with this point but I'm digressing.

Anyhow, most people that do download the episodes are like me, and who will hopefully stick around to watch for next episodes on television. It means that there are people out there interested in the series' survival and just want to view their favorite episodes any time they want.

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Monday, December 9, 2002 11:24 PM

BZZO

I think there's some confusion over the legality of recording broadcast television.

At one point during the dawn of the Video Cassette Recorder, the standing American copyright law was challenged to apply to television. Now, I can't quote anything, mostly because it's 4am here, but it was decided that once a television program, or any TV signal, had been broadcast, you can have a copy of it for personal use.

This does NOT extend to selling the tape, repackaging tape, or showing the tape to a bar full of people.

Does this extend to the Internet? Who knows, it's still grey. I think if you were to apply the current interpretation of the law, you can have a broadcast television show on your computer if you want to watch it (again and again and again) but you can't share it. P2P or whatever.

If you wanted a practical interpretation, Matt Stone + Trey Parker have publiclly supported people downloading episodes of South Park from the internet, because the more people who see their show, the better.

I think if someone watched War Stories on Friday and hadn't seen the earlier eps, they might want to log onto their favorite legally nebulous file sharing program and grab Ariel and The Train Job or whatever. Maybe that will encourage them to tune in again next week.

I have 3 or 4 episodes of Firefly on my computer. I think two of them I missed in first run and 2 others I wanted to see again. I still tune into Fox every Friday night at 8 to see the show.

And, if I am activly pursuing the show, doesn't that mean I am more likely to watch it on television?

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Tuesday, December 10, 2002 12:02 AM

HOOK

when fox and joss etc come out with a statement that they are going to fight to reform copyright law so that the duration of copyright is put back to historical norms (ie about 15 years with the right to extend another 15 i think) is the day i will start to think downloading eps is morally or ethicaly wrong.

Essentially i feel that my rights have been eroded and any loss of revenue due to warez is justifiable...if hollywood is unwilling to restore my rights then I say let them die the slow death from internet. :)

hook

http://diogenes.gotdns.org

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Tuesday, December 10, 2002 6:37 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

I think of it this way:

My favorite episode of BTVS is "Once More, With Feeling." Hands down. After that episode aired, I had to have those songs. I had to listen to them while I was getting ready. I had to listen to them in my car. I had to have them. So I went online and my good buddy StudiesInWords.de happend to have copies in Mp3 format. Now I had a plain, old, slow as crap internet connection, and it literally took me all weekend to download them. The copies weren't pretty, but they worked. That was the first time I had ever downloaded songs off the internet. It wasn't that I wanted to steal from Joss Whedon, the cast or Mutant Enemny in general. God knows ME winds up with about 60% of my income. (Not a joke) I just wanted the songs and couldn't get them any other way. Of course, once the official soundtrack came out, I went out and bought it. Why? Joss worked hard on that episode, and he deserves the royalities.

Now I don't download episodes off the internet, but it's not because I'm moraly opposed to it. For those people who live abroad, be my guest and download it, because it's the only way you can see Firefly. But when it airs in your country you better damn well eat your veggies and watch the broadcast when it airs in your country. And don't download copies of episodes that can be obtained on DVD.

________________

"Very occasionally, if you really pay attention, life doesn't suck." -- Joss Whedon

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Tuesday, December 10, 2002 6:53 AM

PEAK

Quote:
For those people who live abroad, be my guest and download it, because it's the only way you can see Firefly. But when it airs in your country you better damn well eat your veggies and watch the broadcast when it airs in your country. And don't download copies of episodes that can be obtained on DVD.

This is as I see it. I live in a very, very backwater country, where things (if they come) comes a long time after they been shown in the US. We're for example only on season 3 of Buffy atm (Helpless was shown yesterday).

I'm doing my share by buing the DVD:s (got season 4 on DVD today, yay), and therefore I don't really see the problem in "aquiring" later episodes a bit before I can obtain them "legally" (In quotes because it's not the downloading that's illegal here at least, it's the sharing/uploading).

Some series never reaches this shore and may not even be available on DVD, despite the fact that it's really popular with season boxsets nowadays. I like to see it like if someone records a tape in the US and sends it to me. Nothing else...

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Tuesday, December 10, 2002 6:53 AM

FUCHSIA

I watch it every week, either as it airs, or later on the TiVo. However, I did download a few eps thta we hadn't managed to record, for the benefit of my family in the UK, because frankly they won't get to see it any time soon, especially if the show gets cancelled. I don't understand how that would be cheating ME out of anything, since the show isn't even airing in the UK, and if my folks like what they see, then they'll likely tune in when the show eventually gets aired over there.

What's more, I fully plan to buy any DVDs that come out.

On a more general note, I've often thought that file sharing does new artists (and in this case, TV shows) a favour, because in many cases I've downloaded something that I've read a review of, but have no other way of listening to, and ended up buying the album. I don't tend to make impulse buys because I don't have the cash for it, so I'm not likely to buy something unless I've heard it and know I like it.

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Tuesday, December 10, 2002 7:37 AM

HJERMSTED

All laws and commercial considerations aside, I personally feel it is a Firefly fan's civic duty to make copies of the show and pass them around free of monetary charge in an effort to grow the fan base. I admit to having made VHS ep quality dubs of Firefly for people in exchange for their participation in the postcard writing campaign.

We should create dubs consistently and unapologetically until such time as:

1) In lieu of new episodes, Fox starts showing Firefly repeats themselves or on another network (FX or Sci Fi channel);

2) Firefly is picked up by Fox for the rest of the season;

3) Firefly is released on DVD...

whichever one comes first.

Make tapes! Burn VCDs! Pass them around.
But do NOT charge $$ for them (that is unethical).

mattro

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Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:11 AM

NIKOMATIC

Yeah well anyway, I'm living in Germany so if I want to watch Firefly I have to download it. And I just won't wait a year or two until they air it on german television... If they air it at all. Plus, they translate all of it to German which really, really sucks (I just can't dare to watch buffy and stuff in German, it hurts my precious little feelings)

But if it would run in television I wouldn't download it, so I'm not that evil

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Saturday, December 14, 2002 11:58 AM

RAULENDYMION

well from a moral stand point you can do somehting that is moral even though its illegal(and vice versa). Law does not equal what is ethical. If you took the utilitarian approach it would be your duty to download the episode because it would be the action that brings about the most happiness :)

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Saturday, December 14, 2002 7:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

In my view its not wrong, but probably illegal.

A little historical perspective: It used to be that people were entitled to "fair use" of intellectual property- you could photocopy a paper or book, or share a tape with a friend, or make a backup copy of your programs as long as you weren't trying to make money from these activities. By the time the USA gets through rewriting all the IP laws, you'll not only be prevented from making money off these activities, you'll be prevented from "possibly" reducing the income of the IP holder. It's gotten so ridiculous that TV exectuves are now saying that if you don't watch the commercials, you're "stealing" the show!

Did anyone besides me notice an Alliance-like attitude in this??? I'm on the Mal side!

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Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:14 AM

NIKOMATIC

Quote:
well from a moral stand point you can do somehting that is moral even though its illegal

that's called legitimate ;)

anyway the only thing i really consider wrong is what the guys on sharereactor did with birds of prey, they posted every episode like a week before it's air date on tv...

well, if you have access to fox and can watch firefly on tv, you should - but one can still download the ep to watch it again on pc, there's nothing wrong about it i believe.

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Sunday, December 15, 2002 6:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Just wanted to add that I understand that the people who make the show need to come up with production costs etc. Unfortunately, the IP laws don't protect the artists, singers, directors, crew, actors etc... they are really written to protect the corporations who are the actual copyright holders.

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Wednesday, December 18, 2002 8:59 AM

JOHNNYREB

I'm on Mal's side! Do what you gotta do! If the execs at FOX don't care enough to keep the show flying (even after fans shelled out their own $ to do FOX's advertising for them)then why should we care enough for them to be worried about whether downloading stuff off the internet is right or wrong? Did Mal care when he cleaned out the Alliance hospital? NO! (Don't mind me. I'm still a little sore.)

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Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:28 AM

ROBERTSPARLING

I don't download eps, mostly because I have no room left on my computer. I certainly would download them if I had the space (a problem I plan to rectify in a few months, need to buy more memory) but I've got a theory about direct downloading.

One of the problems producers and such have with downloading eps, is that the advertising that pays for the show isn't there, thereby cutting into their profits. But gee, Fox gives away the episode by airing: we are given free access to the television show in question when it is aired, and we are forced to watch the ads. And we are allowed to have our own personal copy of the episode, as long as we have no intent to distribute.

So why doesn't Fox let us download whole episodes of a show, (any show) but just leaving the commercials in? Think about it: Fox gets a fast server, they throw an ep up every week (after it has been aired), we download it, and we get to watch the adverts.

Now I know some of you are saying "I'd just skip over the adverts and wouldn't see them anyway." Well, true, except there are some media file types (I'm not sure which but there are some, help me out audio/video experts) that do not allow you to skip ahead; they make you watch the whole file.

Can you imagine? Clearer pictures than a tv rip, better sound, and all for the price of watching a Pepsi commercial or two. I can stand a Doritos ad or two to get my Firefly fix.

And some of you are saying, "Won't that cut into any DVD sales that might happen?" The answer is "No." Most fans would buy the DVDs regardless of having d/l-ed eps (am I right people?) and let's not forget that DVDs always have that something extra like Commentaries by Joss or Tim, and art galleries, missing scenes, etc.

I wish the TV companies would enter the new electronic age, other than having peachy Flash 6 sites that have great graphics and little content. This would be cool.

Bye

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Wednesday, December 18, 2002 4:57 PM

EVANS

What if we could download any ep for a dollar each? Nice Website, 'vetted ads, no guilt, no leeches downloading from YOUR computer, LOL!

m.
------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL
"None of it means a damn thing." Mal, in OBJECTS IN SPACE

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Wednesday, December 18, 2002 6:52 PM

HJERMSTED

Quote:

What if we could download any ep for a dollar each? Nice Website, 'vetted ads, no guilt, no leeches downloading from YOUR computer, LOL!

Only if the format is burnable to disc or otherwise watchable on a TV system. By "watchable" I mean the image must at least look as good as broadcast TV.
Call me ancient but I hate watching TV shows or movies on a little computer screen.

mattro

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Wednesday, December 18, 2002 8:02 PM

LJSQUARED

If you've got *.mpg file it can be saved as a VCD which can be played in DVD player. A good quality file is about 450mg and i reckon these are just as good a broadcast TV, of course if you have cable or satelite the pictures probably better. I have seen *.m2v files which can be turned into SVCD's (comparable to DVD) and can be 600mb plus for an episode. But with adds the files would be 1/3rd bigger. It already takes me three hours to download an ep, and I get them pretty much as fast as my internet pipe can pull 'em (55K/Bs).
What would happen is some industrious folk would get the episode, crack the copy protection, and remove the adds. By giving them a nice digital copy there just making it easier for them.

Firefly@Trekvideo.com
http://www.trekvideo.com/firefly

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Wednesday, December 18, 2002 8:29 PM

ZERO

Screw the laws or the interpretation of laws. Download all u want. If there was mass enforcement of these laws then it would be another story. Personally, I dont know what the big deal is, any publicity is good publicity. True fans are still gonna buy their music, pay for movie tickets, watch the old tube, or what have you. By the way, anyone interested in downloading Firefly episodes should read my signature ;)

------------------------------------------
-=ZERO=-
Check me out on WinMX, I have all the episodes in SVCD format. Any Firefly fans get free starts, just msg me.

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 12:54 AM

EVANS

Quote:
Call me ancient but I hate watching TV shows or movies on a little computer screen.

I have no DVD player, only a DVD drive on my computer. I now have about a hundred DVDs, and it doesn't bother me to watch them on a 15" screen. What I wish about the downloaded eps is that they had closed captions and other DVDish features: slow motion, single frame, etc. But if wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak.

m.
------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL
"None of it means a damn thing." Mal, in OBJECTS IN SPACE

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 12:20 PM

KURUKAMI

Quote:
Originally posted by Zero:
Check me out on WinMX, I have all the episodes in SVCD format. Any Firefly fans get free starts, just msg me.

Do you, by chance, have a decent copy of Mrs. Reynolds? Ever version I've snagged so far has been buggy and stalls on both Windows Media Player and RealPlayer. Rather annoying, that, given the high praise the ep has received here and elsewhere.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 12:38 PM

GUILLERMO

If you're having trouble with watching the files, have updated your divx codecs? I had the same problem and after I updated it worked fine. Do a search for Nimo Codec if you're use Windows... if your using apple computers, try using mplayer.

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Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:56 PM

SUCCATASH

I guess we all decided that it wasn't wrong.

Has YOUR mom seen Firefly, lately?

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Friday, February 28, 2003 5:01 PM

ARCHER

If it weren't for downloaded eps, I never would have seen the show at all. I'm a truckdriver, and a friend got them off the net for me.

Via these ripped eps, I got my parents and brother hooked on the show.

And damn straight, when the DVDs come out my wallet will be flying open.

(Assuming I'm sufficiently recovered from the B5 DVDs and the DS9 DVDs and so on.)

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