FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

"They stole Christmas."

POSTED BY: WILLIAMS
UPDATED: Sunday, December 12, 2004 13:24
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Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:29 AM

WILLIAMS


I've been trying to figure out River's bit of dialogue from Ariel (while in custody). My best guess is that this is something from Jayne's past. (Was his family robbed for the holidays?)

Any thoughts?


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Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:56 AM

SOUPCATCHER


I never thought of that comment as being a read on Jayne. I'll have to mull that over in my head. I had always interpreted that line as being from River's experience at the academy - that they stole her childish innocence.

There are three kinds of people: fighters, lovers, and screamers.

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Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:19 AM

EMBERS


I thought 'Christmas' was going to be Jayne's big payoff for turning in River...and the Alliance guy 'stole' it by arresting Jayne himself...
I thought that dialogue of River's was completely her strange POV of what Jayne did to herself and Simon.

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Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:10 AM

ELLYDRAGON


The other interpretation I've always had is that they were going to be able to find out about what was going on with River's brain from the tests Simon was running. So it was like the present for the trip to Ariel. But, there could be something else there completely that I didn't see.

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Thursday, September 30, 2004 10:19 AM

RABIT


Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
I thought 'Christmas' was going to be Jayne's big payoff for turning in River...and the Alliance guy 'stole' it by arresting Jayne himself...
I thought that dialogue of River's was completely her strange POV of what Jayne did to herself and Simon.
I agree - they took the presents by not giving him the reward. I haven't been able to get a grip on the closet comment, though; it just doesn't seem to fit...

Rabit

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Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:54 PM

WILLIAMS


At this point I tend to agree that Christmas is a reference to Jayne's payoff.

I would guess that the closet may be River's brain - peeked into in this episode. Presents may be hidden in a closet coming up on Christmas (but lots of childhood nightmare-type stuff may be in there hiding).

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Thursday, September 30, 2004 5:53 PM

THUNDAR


I always took the closet remark as referring to the Blue hands guys that hadn't shown up yet.

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Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:16 PM

EMBERS


or Jayne hidding his betrayal, as in a closet?
hiding the fact that he was expecting a big reward?
I need to rewatch the scene to get the exact wording...there was a lot happening in that scene, as I recall

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Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:50 PM

THEREALME


A person on the Serenity board going by "The Almanac" has created a rather impressive timeline for Firefly, with carefully noted sources for each and every one of his dates, and clearly saying where he made a guess and why he made that guess.

Anyway, according to his calculations, this episode took place sometime in mid-to-late December. It could be that River was talking about the real Christmas that was about to be taken away.



The Real Me

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Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:50 PM

PURPLEBELLY


As discussed elsewhere, the Jayne's Christmas readings by River tap into Jayne's repressed memories of abuse in his childhood.

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Thursday, September 30, 2004 9:08 PM

NUISANCE


I think that River was talking about something that happened to Jayne. The look on Jayne's face when she said the part about the closet makes me think it's more than a metaphor. Jayne seems creeped out instead of being able to dismiss her like usual.

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Thursday, September 30, 2004 10:07 PM

BARNEYT


Yeah, my thinking has always been that it is about Jayne. Although I've never been too sure! It's a confusing scene allright


My take on it, though, is that it's referring back to Jayne's childhood to something that happened that led him to become the 'anything for money' loveable psycho that he is today...

Probably his dad losing his job, bailiffs coming round - that kind of thing.


---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

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Friday, October 1, 2004 3:27 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
I thought 'Christmas' was going to be Jayne's big payoff for turning in River...and the Alliance guy 'stole' it by arresting Jayne himself...
I thought that dialogue of River's was completely her strange POV of what Jayne did to herself and Simon.


This is how I thought of it too.

I have not thought of it as something from River's past before, but it could be (as suggested above by Soupcatcher) that it was a loss of her innocence at the hands of the Academy.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Friday, October 1, 2004 3:53 AM

BIKISDAD


Interesting that it could be about Jayne. I had always had the same take on it as Soupcatcher. The thought that it might be about Jayne is intriguing. The only way we'll probably ever find out for sure is if Joss would tell us. Somebody needs to ask him that question at the next con.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Friday, October 1, 2004 4:47 AM

MRSKBORG


Never much thought of it as referring to Jayne, more of Rivers experiences. Downright perplexing. Damn I now got watch that one again, gee thats gona be sooo hard to do.

"This movie may be a beautiful butterfly, but I loved that damn caterpillar." Joss Whedon.

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Friday, October 1, 2004 4:47 AM

MRSKBORG


Never much thought of it as referring to Jayne, more of Rivers experiences. Downright perplexing. Damn I now got watch that one again, gee thats gona be sooo hard to do.

"This movie may be a beautiful butterfly, but I loved that damn caterpillar." Joss Whedon.

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Friday, October 1, 2004 4:47 AM

MRSKBORG


Never much thought of it as referring to Jayne, more of Rivers experiences. Downright perplexing. Damn I now got watch that one again, gee thats gona be sooo hard to do.

"This movie may be a beautiful butterfly, but I loved that damn caterpillar." Joss Whedon.

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Friday, October 1, 2004 4:48 AM

MRSKBORG


Never much thought of it as referring to Jayne, more of Rivers experiences. Downright perplexing. Damn I now got watch that one again, gee thats gona be sooo hard to do.

"This movie may be a beautiful butterfly, but I loved that damn caterpillar." Joss Whedon.

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Friday, October 1, 2004 4:48 AM

MRSKBORG


Never much thought of it as referring to Jayne, more of Rivers experiences. Downright perplexing. Damn I now got watch that one again, gee thats gona be sooo hard to do.

"This movie may be a beautiful butterfly, but I loved that damn caterpillar." Joss Whedon.

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Friday, October 1, 2004 4:48 AM

MRSKBORG


Never much thought of it as referring to Jayne, more of Rivers experiences. Downright perplexing. Damn I now got watch that one again, gee thats gona be sooo hard to do.

"This movie may be a beautiful butterfly, but I loved that damn caterpillar." Joss Whedon.

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Friday, October 1, 2004 4:48 AM

MRSKBORG


Never much thought of it as referring to Jayne, more of Rivers experiences. Downright perplexing. Damn I now got watch that one again, gee thats gona be sooo hard to do.

"This movie may be a beautiful butterfly, but I loved that damn caterpillar." Joss Whedon.

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Friday, October 1, 2004 4:48 AM

MRSKBORG


Never much thought of it as referring to Jayne, more of Rivers experiences. Downright perplexing. Damn I now got watch that one again, gee thats gona be sooo hard to do.

"This movie may be a beautiful butterfly, but I loved that damn caterpillar." Joss Whedon.

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Friday, October 1, 2004 4:48 AM

MRSKBORG


Never much thought of it as referring to Jayne, more of Rivers experiences. Downright perplexing. Damn I now got watch that one again, gee thats gona be sooo hard to do.

"This movie may be a beautiful butterfly, but I loved that damn caterpillar." Joss Whedon.

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Friday, October 1, 2004 4:48 AM

MRSKBORG


Never much thought of it as referring to Jayne, more of Rivers experiences. Downright perplexing. Damn I now got watch that one again, gee thats gona be sooo hard to do. Oops double post, gorram computer frelled!

"This movie may be a beautiful butterfly, but I loved that damn caterpillar." Joss Whedon.

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Friday, October 1, 2004 4:51 PM

THEREALME


Really, you only need to push that "post" button once...




The Real Me

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Friday, October 1, 2004 10:52 PM

MURMURER


I seem to remember something Christmas-related that Jubal Early mentions in Objects in Space. Given their similar intuitive abilities, it's probably more than a coincidence.

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 4:32 AM

RABIT


Quote:
Originally posted by murmurer:
I seem to remember something Christmas-related that Jubal Early mentions in Objects in Space. Given their similar intuitive abilities, it's probably more than a coincidence.
But wasn't his comment to Kaylee? I don't see how they (the comments) can be related...

Rabit

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 11:16 AM

MURMURER


Jubal said
"Maybe I come down the chimney, Kaylee,
bring presents to the good girls and
boys. Maybe not, though."

And River's line:
"Came down the stairs for the shiny
presents, but they took the tree and
the stockings. Nothing left but coal."

River could be talking about Jayne's betrayal, but it could also go deeper than that - she's used multiple-entendres before.

Both of the above lines are cryptically metaphorical in an eerily similar way - albeit with River's being characteristically more non-sequitur. Jubal and River also share similar quirks and intuitive abilities - Jubal himself could be a graduate of the Academy, albeit a less talented one than River. He was almost certainly hired by the people who trained her - it's not such a stretch to think they might have trained him as well. Considering this, River could also be talking about the Blue Hands' imminent arrival in Ariel. Maybe they were both referring to similar knolwedge/experiences involving Blue Sun, Alliance, and/or the Academy.

This brings up an interesting point - given how the Blue Hands killed anyone who'd even spoken to River, was Jubal intending to kill the crew after using them to find her? Or would he have left that to the Blue Hands? Would the Blue Hands have killed Jubal after retrieving River, or does he already know about the secret they're trying to protect? It's possible they told him to help him find her - he seemed to have detailed information on both of the Tams. Then again, his considerable underestimation of River suggests he might not have known much more than the Feds in Ariel.

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 12:01 PM

WILDBILL


Another Cristmas reference is in "Our Mrs. Reynolds". When Mal is revived from the "good-night kiss" he asks, "Is it Christmas?"

Maybe the writer(s) just really like Christmas.

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 2:28 PM

SHINYSEVEN


The line that River "hears" from Jayne in OiS is also what Jayne says to Mal when they're on opposite sides of the door in Ariel: "The money was too good. I got stupid."

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Monday, October 4, 2004 10:04 PM

CHARKI127


Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
A person on the Serenity board going by "The Almanac" has created a rather impressive timeline for Firefly, with carefully noted sources for each and every one of his dates, and clearly saying where he made a guess and why he made that guess.

Anyway, according to his calculations, this episode took place sometime in mid-to-late December. It could be that River was talking about the real Christmas that was about to be taken away.



The Real Me


I have to agee with you TheRealMe. By the way, thanks for reminding me where that time line is. I deleted it after I read it and could not remember where to refer a new(er) Browncoat. charki

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Wednesday, October 6, 2004 5:13 PM

LJOSALF


Quote:
Originally posted by Rabit:
Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
I thought 'Christmas' was going to be Jayne's big payoff for turning in River...and the Alliance guy 'stole' it by arresting Jayne himself...
I thought that dialogue of River's was completely her strange POV of what Jayne did to herself and Simon.
I agree - they took the presents by not giving him the reward. I haven't been able to get a grip on the closet comment, though; it just doesn't seem to fit...

Rabit


Christmas is the payoff Jayne would have gotten from the original hospital job and looking in the closet--which is greedy--would be the reward for turning in the Tams. At that particular point in time, the realization is fully sinking in with Jayne that he has lost both payoffs. Alternately, if you don't think that Jayne is solely motivated by money, Christmas is getting the homicidal nutcase and his competition for Kaylee's affections off the ship (from his point of view he's doing Mal a favor) and the closet is still the reward for turning them in.

River seems to read Jayne a lot and pretty clearly: in Trash, when Jayne is explaining why the Tams have to stay out of sight of Mal's blushing psychotic bride (YoSafBridge), River gets this brief look of concentration on her face and then says, "She's a liar. She's a liar and no good will come of her." And Jayne looks annoyed like she took the words out of his mouth. Right after that we have the girl's name comment and then a few moments later River explains to Simon that Jayne is afraid they will find out....I think that only the OiS scenes with Kaylee and Mal are clearer readings than what she gets off Jayne.

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

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Friday, October 15, 2004 11:44 AM

YT

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same


Quote:
Originally posted by murmurer:
River could be talking about Jayne's betrayal, but it could also go deeper than that - she's used multiple-entendres before.

River's mind works so fast we often can't keep up (even after multiple viewings), which makes her statements seem non-sequitur.

In this instance, I think "They stole Christmas" is in Jayne's mind, whereas "Came down the stairs for the shiny presents, but they took the tree and the stockings. Nothing left but coal" is River comparing the Academy to her home. Jayne doesn't seem like he had many shiny presents in his childhood.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

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Sunday, December 12, 2004 9:28 AM

SHEALYNN88


So, here's a question. I just finished a Christmas fan fic, and had a hard time knowing exactly how to work Christmas. The culture of Firefly seems to be a heavy mix of Chinese and western culture. The Chinese don't celebrate Christmas like we do, though it is growing. They tend to have a larger celebration at New Year--parades, offerings to gods, food, days of celebration. At least, that's how I understand it. So, what is a Christmas celebration like, Firefly style? Is it about Santa? Chinese gods? The birth of Christ? Some combination of the three? (That's the one I went with. :) )

Shealynn

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Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:24 PM

YT

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same


Quote:
Originally posted by shealynn88:
So, here's a question. I just finished a Christmas fan fic,

Quote:
So, what is a Christmas celebration like, Firefly style? Is it about Santa? Chinese gods? The birth of Christ? Some combination of the three? (That's the one I went with.

I think, since you went with it first, you get to pick.

For another nine years, anyway.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

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